To discus or not to discus?

[AndyL]

Hey all,

What a wonderful forum you guys have here. I love it already!

I've been in love with discus since the first time I saw one at the LPS. But the price has always scared me away.

I was at one of the smaller LPS's on saturday, they had a new shipment of discus in (cobalt blue's) Mostly under 2", unfortunately they've contracted Ich.

The owner apparently brought them in for her show tank, and now wants to sell them to free up her sales tanks (she doesn't usually quarantine apparently ::) ) 6 discus for the regular price of one...

Do I dare? I was planning to pick up a new 55g this weekend anyway (I've got a cycled filter I can put in it)

I'm relatively sure of why they got the ich, talking to the staff they didn't allow for any acclimatizing time (Ok, well 2 hours to go from a ph of 7.2 with gh of 10 to the local ph 7.8 with gh >30) and the tanks are kept at 76degrees. We wont even get into they're use of peat bags in that tank, and ph adjusters (in reaction to the ich).

In other words they weren't properly acclimatized, and they're in a tank with unstable water conditions.

What do you guys think? I stopped in today the offer still stands, the fish are so far still alive (but they are ich covered and huddled behind the heater)

Andy

Where do you live? If its Minnesota- I'll give you some free fishies! I have tons of babies left! Personally, I would not start out with sick dicus - it may become defeating. I would start with a healthy stock. Just my opinion...

Weezy ;D

[Ralph]

Weezy has got a good point. It is a risk and you may end up with six dead fish and a loss of interest in owning discus.
On the other hand, many of us started with LFS rescues and ich is easy to treat (salt and heat - you've probably already read about it in the disease section). You may end up with six beautiful fish who owe you their lives.
Your call, and welcome to Simply!

[darcy]

Hi Andy
Welcome to Simply!!!!!! There's a few of us Albertans here!!! I sent you a private message,I await your reply!!
Darcy

[April]

Welcome Andy..im one over in B.C. close enough lol.
yes...talk to darcy.
if the heat was cranked up to 86..the ick would vanish but they may be stressed...'
if their young enough and not runted...then they could be ok.
well glad you enjoy simply..and stay around. let us know what you decide.

[fossil]

I wouldn't buy sick discus even for a good deal, its best to start of with healthy discus. As most people say on this forum "a good discus is not a cheap one." If you find a real cheap discus then you know their probly is something wrong with it.

[ronrca]

LOL Andy! Just finished with responding on myfishtank! ;D
Of course, simplydiscus is the messageboard you want to be on for discus.

Like Ralph and April, if it is only ich, I would not have a problem with it since ich is quite easy to treat. Certainly, you have to realize that the discus you may be buying are not show stoppers. Then again, why would you want to spend a lot of money on your first discus only to perhaps lose them from unexperience. I started with buying from a breeder in Red Deer. I insisted on runts because being my first discus, I did not want to spend $400 and lose them. Im very glad I only spend $100 for 6 discus because I did lose some but I learned a lot along the way.

[Fisheyes]

Hi Andy
I am a Calgarian so I am not that far away .
Take my word for it do not- do not start with sick fish.
It is enough of a job just to keep them healthy to start with . there is people around like Darcy and Tony plus others that will help you get started .
Two things I should tell you as a beginer to discus myself .
One is to listen
The other is to do as your told.
Welcome on my behalf
Ken

[dm]

Welcome Andy,

I would think it is more due to the water temp then the acclamation. An hour doesnt sound unreasonable to me. Anyone who would keep them at 74 degrees obviously doesnt know how to care for them.

[ronrca]

Wow! Dale! I didnt even notice that. No wonder! :o

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Andy, welcome to Simply :wave:

Which should you buy - a car that's had sugar poured in it's gas tank or for $100 more one that hadn't?

Don't start with sick, stressed, improperly cared for discus.

[larry lob]

Ok sorry to argue..........

6 fish that may or may not be show fish for $45 - $60?

Do It!

the reasons are these, assume you just threw that money down the drain and forget the cash.

It may be simple to bring these fish back, it may be hard.
One thing is for sure they are as good as dead sitting where they are and the longer you take to decide the worse they will be.

I you use these fish to learn on then you haven't lost alot of cash.

it will show you if you are dedicated enough for discus without killing good fish.

imagine how proud you will feel if they turn out ok.

anddddddddd you can easily get rid of them and start again if thing don't turn out right with one main thing going for you, experiance at low cost.

i know there are more reasons but the main one is a cheep learning experiance and a good backing behind you (simply)

HTH

Larry

P.S My 1st fish 8 years ago were $150 each, are they alive now? OUCH..... Am i GUTTED great specimines are not alive today.... absolutly!

I wouldn't take them if they were free. I will never understand the logic of buying sick fish, hoping that they will recover. Most people recommend against buying any fish from a LFS, but to go to known breeder instead. But somehow that logic gets tossed out the window if the fish are near-dead. I'd pass on the sick ones and invest in some healthy fish from a breeder.

Dave

I agree with Dave...Also, you have to factor in other things besides the cheap price of sick fish...What if you need to purchase meds to bring them back to health?? What about the costs of food?? And your time?? I bought some fish that looked sick once-never again...Most of the breeders offer reasonable prices on very small(young) fish...Why not buy a dozen 1-2 inch fish and grow them out?? You might end up with a couple culls at that size, but at least you're starting out with something that's healthy....
By buying the sick fish from an LFS you're just encouraging them to keep getting discus and mistreating them...

[ronrca]

Ok! People! Lets think about this for a second! They have ICH, not malaria! I agree with larrylob! If it had not been for the breeder that I was able to purchase 6 runts from, I would of never considered going into discus in the first place if I had to dish out $400 for 6 beautiful discus only to have them die from unexperience.

Which of the 2 scenerios would be more of a disappointment? Losing 6 discus plus $400 or 6 discus plus $100. If I would of been able to spend $400 for my first discus (my wife killing in the prosess) and I even lost one of them, I probably would be considering throwing in the towel pretty quick! Losing any fish is not a pleasant experience, it hurts even more if it is worth $60-80! What a better way to discourage beginners because they can not afford it!

Now that I have kept discus and learning thru simplydiscs/experience, I feel comfortable in spending $80-120/discus.

Other considerations in Andy's case. Most of us do not know where Fort McMurry is! It is what? 4-6 hours drive from Edmonton? Shipping would be outragoues by air. Driving to Edmonton, well, a long day's trip unfortunately there are not many breeders in Edmonton either (some that I do know of but do not respond to e-mails). Therefore, having 6 discus for the price of 1 is a steal. Like larrylob says, if you come thru, Andy will have 6 discus for the price of one. I also mentioned that these discus will not be 'show stoppers'.

Taking it all into consideration, if it does not work out, Andy is out $45-60. I do not think Andy will give up as these as not his fish first. He is also breeding other types.

In the end, it is Andy's decision! I also mentioned to him to make it clear that he is only to buy the discus if ICH is all they have. Nothing else and that if they do not make it, the lfs be willing to give him in store credit! This could be a win-win situation for him!

Just my thoughts from similar experiences! ;)

ron,

Lighten up, all we're doing is giving our opinions based on our experiences. Andy is free to make up his own mind. It is naive to think that fish that are black and huddled behind a heater will only be suffering from Ich. I have never seen a store that will sell 6 fish for the price of one and then guarantee those fish. And how could you prove the fish had something other then Ich? How could the store guarantee they only had Ich? It's a senseless debate. The fish are sick. Are 6 sick, black, huddled fish worth $45-$65? Not to me they're not. Maybe they are to Andy.

Dave

[OEG]

Hi Andy the fish you speak about what are more than likely poor quality discus anyways ,dont do it man. I would start off the right way, do it one time right, and you wont have to be seeing fish die all freakin week long.If you see those fish die in youre tank you will probably be discouraged...there are plenty of people here who will help you out with fish.
Oscar

[ronrca]

LOL! Dave! I an enlightened! ;D Sorry!

As I was responding, I was thinking about them having other diseases. However, isnt that a risk you take anyways! Of course having learned a lot on simplydiscus, a Q-tank is a must but you can never be assured to get a 100% heathly discus therefore you have to Q every discus you get. Nevertheless, I agree you are increasing that risk by purchasing dark, huddling discus. A very good learn experience imo!

I guess I would take the chance and thru them into my Q-t, using the nesseccary procedures anyways. But thats just me and maybe as I continue with this addicition of discus, I may change my mind.

Maybe it's just me. I have limited tank space and I dedicate that space to healthy fish. I don't buy healthy looking fish from a LFS due to the increased risk that they'll be sick and/or runts. Not to mention the fact that most LFS Discus are poor grade Discus to begin with, healthy or not. So the logic of buying sick fish from a LFS and removing all doubt stumps me. The cost of housing, feeding, maintaining & medicating the fish makes it a poor decision in my opinion.

Dave

[Ryan]

I mostly agree with Dave on this one...

When I was a little younger I used to go to all the local stores and get bargain fish that were sick/stressed. I always went home with the understanding that the fish were ill, but I thought if I could turn them around, I would be doing the fish (and the world, I suppose) a favor. It was my good deed, as small as it may have seemed to some.

Then I used to see pictures of these beautiful angelfish and discus online and I always wondered why mine never looked like that. While I had a pretty good success rate with nursing fish back to health, VERY few of them ever showed any real potential. Most of them never grew (or barely grew), stayed thin, etc. So I was spending time on these fish, buying food for these fish -- and what for? They were never going to be breeding material. They were never going to look like prize winners. They were taking up space and eating just as much as the really nice fish I could get from a breeder.

Then I realized what someone brought up earlier -- If that store gets in 8 discus a week, and there are 8 people out there like me who go in and buy the fish because they feel sorry for them, that store is still making money, and will continue to distribute less-than-quality fish. I'm not saying that all LFS have bad stuff, I've been to very nice ones, but there are many who are just there to make money.

Five years ago I could walk into five of the local shops around me and they would all have a tank of sick, dark discus. Now zero of those five shops carry discus. Do I think this is a good thing? Yes. If they could provide the correct conditions and sell quality fish, would I encourage it? Of course. But do they have the time and energy to do so? Most likely, no.

Those poor little fish are tempting, I know, but as Larry said in his post they are as good as dead at the LFS. So what happens if you bring them home and they die? Either way, the fish end up dead, but if you buy them the store's still made a little cash. If they sit there and die, maybe the store will think twice about getting another batch. All the ones around here did.

Ryan

[ronrca]

The quality of discus at lfs I stated already in my first post. Being a beginner myself still, beggers cant be chosers either. Meaning with limited funds, its rather difficult to justify getting 'hotnsexy' discus when your a beginner with the possibility of having them get sick and die anyways (plus what about replacement costs? Another $400?). Some can do it, I cant....yet (just wait until my rack is done and telling my wife I want to spend $1000+ on discus! Thats what happens when you start with discus!).

Its not that I am disagreeing with your points guys! All the points are good points and I agree with (especially about the lfs not selling fish they can not care for). All Im trying to point out is that when you are a beginner, you do have to start somewhere. Some can save the money to go for the 'pot of gold', some can not!

From my experience, like I mentioned, I started out with worst than what the lfs had to offer because the lfs were too expensive (lfs wanted $40/discus, runts costed me $17/discus)! Slowly, over the last year or so, I have started to phase out the runts with 'hotnsexy' ones!

Well, anyways! Ive stated my points! If someone can afford to get healthy discus and have the funds to do so, of course that is the best, dont get me wrong. However, not everyone can (especially if you have a wife not liking your expensive hobby. It takes time to get her use to the idea of spending over $10 a fish).

ronrca,
Would it not be better to start out with quality healthy fish? You may find out that the cure is more expensive than what those fish are worth.
IMO I would tighten the ole belt buckle and buy quality healthy fish to start with and enjoy. The breeders, like Cary, Jeff, Mike and Joe and others I have forgot will be more than willing to give you all the advice you would need.
It is just my opion, and like the old saying goes.

HTH/IMO
Miles

[OEG]

Ronrca,
I believe that Dave C is totaly correct....as I stated earlier there are plenty of people on this bord who would be more than happy to help you out with fish....infact I would send you some B+fish healthy and clean for shipping cost only.They might not be the A+++fish everybody wants but there good starting fish....and most of all desease freee!!!!!!!!!
Oscar :o

[ronrca]

LOL! I love the attention! Its just too bad that I cant take up anyone on their offer (Oscar).....yet!

I know, I know! All very good points! Beautiful A++ would be everybodies dream but what if you dont have the money, first of all and second, what it you live 6-8hours from an international airport! Shipping costs would be very, very expensive! Or no?

Miles made a very good point! :-\


The breeders, like Cary, Jeff, Mike and Joe and others I have forgot will be more than willing to give you all the advice you would need.
will be more than willing to give you all the advice you would need
How true and thats a point I can not argue with! ;D

Buying sick discus is DEFINATELY not the way to start out IMO.....BUT.... as long as Andy is fully aware(no way he couldnt be after this thread) of what he's getting himself into....what the hell.
Andy...as its been stated eleventyfour times already.....if you do decide to buy them, just realize that after all the hard work...all the money spent on the fish,meds, etc.....you could very well end up with a tank full of crap fish...or worse yet...dead fish.

Just be aware.....

Tony
Ps....also...think about what your going to do with these fish if you do manage to pull them through, and they end up being crap fish.....discus live a long time.

[April]

right..good point tony. everyone ends up with some runted fish...then you want some nicer ones once your in love with them...then no more tank space. and what do you do with them? cant sell them....not fair to give them to someone either.. their all yours.
go find darcy. he has fry. so i heard.......

[darcy]

Fry??? What fry!!! Yeah I have some fry left, I already offered some to Andy!! But since Smokey was here on Wednesday, he just about cleaned me all out!!!! Oh well my pair is at it again tonight. April I thought you have fry also????
Darcy

[Ralph]

Decisions on buying a pet are strongly influenced by a person's personal values, finances play a part of course but even they are value based. Not knowing Andy's personal value system, it is very hard to tell him what he should do or shouldn't do.
We can tell him our personal experiences, we can tell him what we would do and why, we can tell him the advantages of a certain choice and the disadvantages, we can suggest other options, and we can give him suggestions on how he can make either choice work for him. But we can't tell him what to do.
Like Tony and Ron said, Andy is an adult, able to make choices for himself. We can best help him by giving him the information he needs to make his own personal choice that is correct for him..

[steve s]

Sounds like you would like to get some discus at a cheap
price. But most of the people who have experince are
telling you not to pay $60. for sick fish.
Deal!!!!!
Tell pet store you want fish !! for free !! If fish live and get well you will give a couple back to them in good health
and double the size so they can sell.

Good luck

[Ralph]

I like the way you think, Steve, that's a great option.

[AndyL]

All but two were dead tonight, passing (No they weren't going for free fish (But they were happy to take some guppy fry, and cory fry off my hands...)) I haven't given up yet, the other LPS has some BIG ones (Pigeon blood maybe?) But I'm not sure I want 2 that big (or that expensive).

Andy

[April]

Yes Darcy i have fry too. but mine arent old enough to go by any means.
so..if smokey cleaned you out....maybe that means he wont be waiting for my manas? i'll tell him hes full up. lol.
well they went to a good home darcy. the guys a bit obsessive. lol.
we may never see him on line now.he will be busy .

[larry lob]

Hmmmmm...... Do i dare make another comment? do i fear world war 4 for an oppinion?
I suppose so!

Listen i was only throwing another angle on things. yes i agree with all of you on all the ways of looking at this but don't you think it is all a little out of context?

andy asked a question that was simple with no correct answer. we all know what is the right way to start with progressing with discus, BUY GOOD FISH, however this was an oppertunity to LEARN from scratch as to andys dedication to keeping the king of the aquarium, the shop said it was not going to get discus again and it was a one off, so in this case there is no issue of stopping a LFS from trading in discus.
They got the fish for a show tank, is there a chance the fish were good fish?

they will still make a profit? i doubt it since LFS'S make 400% profit on live stock so 6 for 1 would be just about cost price.

Time and money on meds and food? well if they don't make it the meds are good for the cabinet and if they make it, money well spent.

My whole reply was LEARN AT LOW COST and you never know where you might end up. In my eyes it was a win win situation. they make it you have background knowledge on what works for the future. They don't make it you have a platform for better decitions in the future.

No one can call the shots without SEEING the fish for themselves.

Hey if it was me i would not buy them because i am past that unless they looked like they had potential. 8 years ago i would have bought them to learn from.

Don't forget It's Just An Oppinion and a View.

Love To All

Larry

[darcy]

Ok Larry
you points are well taken!! But it really doesn't matter anymore. Andy asked for some opinions and he got them. I have talked with Andy about some fry I have, they are not sick, no ich no huddling and they are not dark!!! I will send Andy some of these guys for free and he can learn with them!!!! So I guess he can learn now for a low cost, but with healthy fish!!!! Sorry for the crappy pic it's hard to get these guys to pose!!

[darcy]

LoL April!!!! Smokey is a very nice guy and it was great to actually meet somone off the board!!! I thought I would have heard from him by now but your right he's probably very busy!!!! Manas???? Maybe you should send some of them to me!!! I have a open growout tank empty!!!!!
Darcy

[Fisheyes]

Good for you Darcy ;D :D ;) :)
Ken

[darcy]

Thanks Ken!!!! There's a few of them with your name on them in the next batch!!!!!

Darcy

[Fisheyes]

Hey right on :o :o :o ;D ;D ;D
I will do my best to get these pigeons up and running .
Hope the flu gets better
Ken

[darcy]

Wow man If I could strike an arc on my head I would weld a hole through it to relieve the pressure!!!!!!! :o :o :o My finger's are crossed for ya!!!
darcy

We were all just giving our opinions. No one opinion is more right then others. Facing this information Andy had to make a decision, in the end the fish made the decision for him. Hindsight is 20/20 and in this case $65 is too much to pay for 4 dead fish and 2 soon-to-be-dead fish. His first experience with Discus will be much more rewarding starting with healthy fish in my opinion.

Dave

[ronrca]

Darcy?!!!!!!!! :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave: :wave:

Im over here!! I need experience too!!!! ;D send fry this way!

LOL!

Like Dave said, the discus decided! Again, patience is a virtue and sometimes waiting a week will often decide things for you. I never buy the first time I see a fish that I like in the lfs. I think about it, do the research, check my tanks and go back a week later. O, yeah! Sometimes have to wait a month to save the money anyways! >:(

I like larrylob's points although not many agree with 'cheap learning' or 'cheap experience'! I guess Im not really a good when it comes to saving money (the opposite of my wife who can save a lot of money in a short period of time) although this hobby sure is teaching me to be! O, well! I love these messageboards!

[AndyL]

I'm actually somewhat surprised this turned into such a flame war, to me it seemed a pretty simple question!

Like many of you, I don't normally rescue sick fish. But at the same time, the deal was pretty good (for the record, 40$ canadian) I've paid a lot more than that just for shipping for some of my fish. And their only problem was most likely ich. If they died, they died, would have happened anyway. I've been wanting discus for some time now, and the price has always been what has stopped me from buying them.

Yes, LPS fish are usually piss poor, and reputable dealers are the way to go (It only took me 30ish angelfish to learn this) But lets face it, sometimes you've gotta learn to drive the chevette before you go get the corvette.

Anywho, thanks to darcy, looking forward to hearing of the progress of your next spawn. Thanks to the rest of you for your words of wisdom, and kind words. In the meantime, I think I'll go do some more discus reading (usefull links always greatly appreciated).

Andy

Andy,
I don't see how this thread turned into a "flame war"??
You asked for opinions, and various people gave them. Some people gave their opinions and were content to leave it at that. Others couldn't accept any other opinion but their own and kept popping back in to argue ... ;D
It never became a flame war...of course that's just my opinion ::) ;)

good luck with your fish...

[Ralph]

I've definately seen worse arguments on the board. Normally it's pretty calm here though. There are certain issues that bring out a wide range of responses and you happened to touch on one of them. Not your fault and maybe some good came out of it.
Anyways, don't let it discourage you from asking some more questions and good luck with your new fish.

Way to go Darcy!

[lovdiscus]

Just reading this thread and found it interesting...just wondering if all the newbies realized that most if not all LFS do not have water supply adequate for Discus.

I have not found one yet that had Discus on a separate filtration system....they cannot afford to do that.
They have all their tanks connected to one large filtration system normally set at 76-78F . So, if you see ick in one tank-it is basically in all tanks. What causes the fish to get the ich is the stress of the fish and weakness to the water conditions. I find it humorous that they label the "Hospital" tanks in many shops - but the hospital tank is connected to all the rest of the tanks...?? New aquarist don't realize this.

So, basically, I guess I am saying that some local breeder with very high quality Discus could have brought them to the store in fine condition...but once in the system, the Discus become stressed and suseptible to illness.

There is the possiblity that you can purchase these and take them home, treat them with TLC and meds and they can become beautiful fish. It is an unknown outcome.
Without knowing where the fish originated- no one knows.
I think it is up to the person buying them..knowing the odds.

Just putting my two cents in....thats all.

[lovdiscus]

Just reading this thread and found it interesting...just wondering if all the newbies realized that most if not all LFS do not have water supply adequate for Discus.

I have not found one yet that had Discus on a separate filtration system....they cannot afford to do that.
They have all their tanks connected to one large filtration system normally set at 76-78F . So, if you see ick in one tank-it is basically in all tanks. What causes the fish to get the ich is the stress of the fish and weakness to the water conditions. I find it humorous that they label the "Hospital" tanks in many shops - but the hospital tank is connected to all the rest of the tanks...?? New aquarist don't realize this.

So, basically, I guess I am saying that some local breeder with very high quality Discus could have brought them to the store in fine condition...but once in the system, the Discus become stressed and suseptible to illness.

There is the possiblity that you can purchase these and take them home, treat them with TLC and meds and they can become beautiful fish. It is an unknown outcome.
Without knowing where the fish originated- no one knows.
I think it is up to the person buying them..knowing the odds.

Just putting my two cents in....thats all.

Donna

[lovdiscus]

sorry for posting it twice....I didnt even hit the send button the first time...weird? I must have done something?
oh well....sorry all.
Donna

[ronrca]

Thats a very good point Donna! A lot of the 'chain' stores or larger stores have central filtration systems, probably because it is the cheapest. Of course, like you mentioned can lead to disaster, something that aquarist do need to take into consideration.

The lfs that I frequently visit actually does not have a central filter for which I am quite happy to see. Every tank has its own heater and sponge filter.

Opps! Sorry! I posted again. I guess Im strong headed for trying to clarify my opinion! :P O well! My own opinion!