My experiences with crossing wilds

With the resurgence of interest in wilds and crossing with domestics specifically, I thought I would offer my unsolicited experience in having done it longer ago than I care to admit ....before I hit the wall!

At some point, to maintain a genetically stong strain, backcrossing with a wild male is paramount.

Assuming that the domestic discus has good body confirmation...crossing with a Brown or Heckle, there is not much compromising of body confirmation. That is, providing the wild fish has good body shape.

All things being equal...when crossing with a green or spotted strain, body confirmation is very compromised at F1. For improvement, the progeny should then be backcrossed to a domestic. At F1--some improvement will transpire. Things are looking up at F2 and one will experience more improvement on up to F4.

IMO, it is atypical the wild Green possess the least desireable shape of the wild species of discus.

;) Joe ;)

[brewmaster15]

Hi Joe,
I think with any of the crosses ...f1's are usually not as desireable an out come , but they are a great intermediate if further crosses are done...

That said, I have had some nice F1's from wild greens crossed with snakeskins...


http://a9.cpimg.com/image/F5/AD/9322229-c6ca-021C0195-.jpg

http://a7.cpimg.com/image/3B/0A/10055227-50c3-021C0195-.jpg

http://a5.cpimg.com/image/43/9F/12813635-1e8b-021C0195-.jpg

http://a0.cpimg.com/image/3E/9E/12813630-e1df-021C0195-.jpg

http://a3.cpimg.com/image/61/6E/10978913-a0de-021C0195-.jpg

http://a8.cpimg.com/image/CE/B4/11758798-f873-02000182-.jpg

http://a2.cpimg.com/image/90/C2/11552912-3544-021C0195-.jpg

http://a2.cpimg.com/image/4A/9F/12813642-a45f-021C0195-.jpg

I've been real pleased with these F1's and am looking forward to additional crosses to improve them.

I have a long way to go before I get to where I want, but I am enjoying the walk! :)
take care,
-al

[Ryan]

Al,

I'm not sure if I told you or not, but when I started having water problems at the end of last year I sent your fish (along with Jeff's) to stay with a friend of mine locally who breeds discus and angels. He decided to put them into softer water than what I was using, and guess what? You're a great-grandpa now :)

Ryan

[brewmaster15]

OMG!!!!!!!I didn't know.. Thats great. :) :) :) You have got to get me some family shots for the album!!!

Grankids... can i spoil them? please? ;D

wow...thats a cool piece of news!

-al

[Ryan]

The male was the big "solid" fish that eventually turned striated on me over time. He doesn't look like the other turks from that spawn.. he has a honey-brown base color with a lot of red and thick whitish-blue striation. He looks like what I keep seeing as "red diamond" everywhere on the net.

The female was "flounder", the little snakeskin that laid on the bottom for 2 days after shipping. She is my favorite of the 6 fish and the best patterned of the snakes in the group.

The first batch was very small, maybe because the male was young. Lots of eggs, not many fertile ones. The fry are still fairly small at 2 weeks free-swimming so I don't have any idea what they look like color-wise, but some do have 14 bars :)

Ryan

I have crossed a bunch of Wild Tefe Red Spotted Greens into everything you can imagine.

The most important part is choosing the wild Male. You need to use the best one that money can buy. Trust me when I say this. The more spots the better results. If your using inferior fish its a waste of time.

For example the fish pictured below that cost me $180.00 produced a few outstanding pieces but the numbers were limited at F1... I should have spent the cash and went for something that had 300+ spots per side and cut a few years off the back crossing.

I hear people sneer at Olivers prices... You get what you pay for. The extra money for a high quality dominate fish may shave a few years off your breeding program.

Also I see lots of people that are getting very excited about breeding wild to wild.... Don't hold your breath sometimes the number of desired F1's that look like parents are less then 10%

Mike

[chirohorn]

Brew, those fish look great. Have you noticed less diseases or health-related issues w/these wild crosses?

F1 Cross from Male above and Female Fine Line SS.

Note SS had a great pattern.

Mike

Same Wild Male

[brewmaster15]

Thanks Chiro,

I don't know about being hardier, because I culled heavily from the beginning, I think I weeded out some of the weaklings.

It may be in my head but I have noticed a pronounced increase in growth rates. ...at least I think I have to the point of being very interested in researching it more.

Alls I can say is these spawns have grown like weeds, and I have had very few problems with them.

I have crossed the snakes to the wild greens a few times now. My most recent cross though is a wild green male X checker board pigeon blood female... I lost a few Months time here from some personal issues, but they spawned weekly and I now have about 100 at dime to quarter size, from one spawn, and week olds from another...Should be interesting...

-al

[Tim_Ellis]

:)

Thanks Michael. Very sound advice. There is a way to pick a wild breeder that their offspring will resemble the parents. It's all depending on the parents. That also reflects on the price of the fish. A certain trait on the fish can predict the color of the F1. A few German Wild experts has also found out how to tell a fish from the same region by some markings on the facial area. Can't explain it in a few words or pages.
Jimmy.

Hi,
Since when does the price of a fish has to do with it's ability to breed true or breed better offsprings? I find it hard to believe that the MORE pricier the fish , the better it'll breed. Please stop this nonsense already...lol. :o :o :o

Runner: Live and learn. When will you ever learn. I rest my case. You are turly an expert. I envy you have already known what the expert has spent over 30 years on this topic. Good for you. Instead of having me further expand my nonsense of what I have found from the German Breeders. I'll let you tell the rest of the world what you have found about the wild and their prices. You people have to ask runner. He is an expert.
Jimmy.

Runner, A dominate wild fish that displays the traits that are desired by breeders fetch a big price. Plain and simple you get what you pay for...

Mike

[Wolf]

Mike,

Can you explain a little what makes a male a dominate fish and what traits are you looking for in a breeding quality male. I am assuming you mean on a RSG you are looking for a fish with a ton of spots but what else is important besides shape that people need to consider.

Mike, Jimmy,
I can understanding paying a high price for a 300 spotted wild rsg., but paying a high price for a regular wild brown/red is something else regardless of where it came from. The rsg at least you can see the quality. But either case, is NO gaurantee of f1s looking like the Ps. I am no expert, but I know at least that much...lol. In discus arena, the tip is "buyers beware". Go figure..lol.

I'll tell you when you buy wild from Oliver. Ask him which fish he doesn't like. He will sell a stuning looking fish in give away price. Why? Just because they are not a good breeder. The color will not pass on the next generation. How does he know? Simply with lots of experience and constant discussion and communication with his partners in Germany. That's how they select fish down in the Amazon. They pick the cream of the crop. He only came back with only 1 RSG this time.
Runner. I'm sure you know the answer since you seems to know everything about wilds. Curipera is only a brown discus. Dosen't worth the price we paid. Regardless where they come from. Please do some research, even an expert like you will learn a thing or two. Have a good day. by the way, for your own info. The one you call a brown discus can only be bred by the 2 German Breeders in the world. The F1 are twice as red as their parents. Why? He knows and he has a million dollars water treatment system in his basement. I wonder why he wasted all his time and money for a Brown discus. Silly Isn't it ? He is not as smart as you are. Plain and simple.
Jimmy.

[Jason]

:thumbsup: Mike&Jimmy!

you get what you pay for!

Sometimes you get what you pay for, but when talking about f1s, the equation changes quite abit. It amy not be as clear cut as you like it to be. Jimmy, I am no expert, I'm just presenting my view point, but I can tell you are already visibly disturbed. Maybe I did touch a sore spot?..lol..
Jimmy,
I do have some questions for you. Do you seriously think that the wild crosses will ever produce reds as red as the tank bred reds we currently have? And if they do, do you know how long it'll take to get to the current stage of the game?All you can hope for is playing catch up, and you are the one who's talking about wasting time. :o :o. But I guess it's ok if you like it, no problem there. he,he,he.

Mike,
I'm sure you know what I am talking about regarding f1s NOT looking like the parents, right?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Runner,
Could you share with everyone what your experiences with breeding discus are? From your posts I get the impression you have alot of experience with breeding discus.

Maybe it might help clarify what you are saying, if you gave some specific example of the lines you are familar with. I'd also be interested in hearing about what your experineces are with breeding wilds?

thanks,
al

ps... anyone else out there have F1 wild X domestic or wild Xwild sthey could post?

Hi Al,
You overated me and I take that as a compliment, thanks. Actually I have little experience in breeding wilds, but "little experience" in discusdom can be relative(depends who you are comparing with). So for those readers who are reading this, just remember, just because someone comes through sounding as knowledgable, they maybe empty vessels( just like me) :o :o..lol. As I have made my point previously, I will not go further.
As far as sharing my experiences with the board, I will leave it to the many pros here who are much more capable than me. I'll now take my bow. thanks for reading.

[Wahter]

I'm curious too - what traits are going to be dominant as opposed to recessive? Shape, size, coloration, size of fins, body heighth, number of spots, speed of growth, etc... Wayne's book and video CD touch on this a bit (I liked seeing the stages of the blue diamond). How do you know which traits will be lost when crossbreeding with wilds?

What is the likelyhood of a wild red spotted green passing the quantity of spots to the F1's? Since wilds breed randomly (ie. the "high number of spots" fish aren't going to leave the "low number of spots" fish by alone, right?), a "high number of spots" fish might have "low number of spots" in his or her genes, right?

Walter

Walter: Some experienced wild breeders have found out that spots and color of the pectoral fin and the abdominal area will pass on to the next generation. Any fish with a colorful abdominal area will cost more in Japan and they are the good breeders. The buyer from Japan is ready to pay $100US right out from the dock in Brazil. Runner can correct me if he thinks I'm talking nonsence. This is only one of the traits to select a good breeder from the poor. Body shape is only secondary which can be developed with food between 1/2" to 2".
Jimmy.

hi walter,
Your quote: the number of high spots on a fish can carry low spots in its genes" is absolutly correct. That is the essence of my argument regaring expensive/expensive looking fish. Regardless of what you are out crossing(note selection of an outcross versus an inbreeding is slightly different) , your primary mode of an outcross is "hybrid vigor", the rest of the charactertics can be secondary. hth.
Breeders like to buy rsgs with 200+ spots to increase their chances of f1s, but ultimatly, there are no gaurantees. I have friends who have 200 spotted rsgs, that only produce green frys and green frys with 50 spots the most for 2 generations. even after back crossing.

Jimmy, Not wanting to seem antagonistic, but the Japanese breeders were paying $400 apiece for RSG Wilds and a good premium for the Tefe's. :o

IME, the percentage of F1's looking like the parents was very low--even with quality breeding stock. IMO, Walter brings up a good point about the spots. Actually it is the Tefe' that does best as far as spot transfer to tank raised discus.

Take care, Joe ;)

[Rod]

This discus pair is red turk and a female wild brown. The female has a red hue but i have no idea where she was caught. The babies from this cross are very strong and consistent with regards to form and growth rate and the deformation and cull rate is almost nil. I have some growouts here that are around 4" and starting to show some decent color, most of the babies turn out red/brown base with blue spots across the body, so really nothing like either parent. I believe in the first inbred generation i can expect striated fish again like the dad. Time will tell.

[Rod]

these are babies about 2" or slightly more.

Rod,
Your crossing can be considered a sucess in that you have achieved hybrid vigor in the f1s . Assuming that the male has a stable genetic base, the segregation of the other characteritics will likely appear in your coming f2s(the full striation of the male and the red/brown female). The % segregation of your f2s will also give you an idea of your male's genetic base and it's stability and those results will likely serve as guides as to whether you can further use this male for other outcrosses. Great going, and a nice pair if I may add.

Hi there Runner.....

A question for you.....

This being a pair (siblings)

http://images.snapfish.com/3368585923232%7Ffp6%3B%3Dot%3E2327%3D%3A49%3D858%3 Dxroqdf%3E2323375424332ot1lsi

http://images.snapfish.com/3368585923232%7Ffp69%3Dot%3E2327%3D%3A49%3D858%3Dx roqdf%3E2323375424%3B43ot1lsi

Dad was a Wild Green and Mom was a Blue Diamond there for this pair is F1.... they have fry now F2's.... what should I expect as far as colour in the spawn?

I have 6 more of these WG x BD F1's, 2 look more like the female above with showing the stress bars more often, 1 like the male above, 1 appears like a Cobalt, 1 a lighter coloured looking Cobalt almost colourless blue :-\ (too hard to explain ) 1 striated..... here are a few of those siblings.

I figure a few pics of the F1 siblings can maybe give you an idea or an estimated guess of what I should maybe expect in the F2's....

http://images.snapfish.com/3368585923232%7Ffp6%3A%3Dot%3E2327%3D%3A49%3D858%3 Dxroqdf%3E232337542%3B%3A4%3Bot1lsi

http://images.snapfish.com/3368585923232%7Ffp6%3A%3Dot%3E2327%3D%3A49%3D858%3 Dxroqdf%3E232337542%3B%3A52ot1lsi

http://images.snapfish.com/3368585923232%7Ffp6%3A%3Dot%3E2327%3D%3A49%3D858%3 Dxroqdf%3E232337542%3C643ot1lsi

Any thoughts??????

Maybe more red in the F2's ?

TIA
Beth

Hi Beth,

Good question, but I have to say crossing a bd to a wild green(P = bd x wg) will most likely result in an up hill battle when you have to regain the original bd chatacteritics in the later Fs. Again, depending on the stability of the male's genes, your f2 segregation may result in very few bd looking frys. I say "bd looking frys" only because this cross will most likely be unstable and your throw back rates of wild green will dominate most of the time. Sorry to say, I do not think much of this cross, if your intent is to have more bd frys, but the bright side is that who ever bred the f1, did maintain hybrid vigor and that is good. IMO you will see much more brown/green/reddish frys than bds. Then again I may be wrong and you might have tons of bd looking frys in your f2s. That's the beauty, wonder and heartache of breeding any livestock. One tip I'd like to leave with you is : Regardless of what your f2s look like, you can always pick the features you want from that group and back cross it to one of the Ps(the one with the features you like most) going into f3. When you breed, it's very important to know the genetic value of the breeders. If you don't, then it becomes a gamble( most times you lose).hth.

Runner, Tan Chee lok is the breeder. But you hasd the cross--backwaords. It is Wild Green X Blue diamond. also Beth is not attempting to get more BD's--I believe she is happy with the fish as it is just like Christmas! Everyone is different as I had said. These fish are extremely hardy. I have a story to illustrate this.

My wife and I were putting the WG X BD away from a shipment. She inadvertantly, nudged a bucket full of these fish behind a row of tanks. They had alredy persevered over 50 hours in the bag enroute!

Three days later , while looking for a siphon hose that apparantly fell behind the tanks, I saw the six fish in the bucket. To put it realistically, I saw the bags as the water was so gray, I just knew they had to be dead! I was ranting--but then sanity prevailed. I said" Next time we are putting fish away--kindly acount for them all' She grabbed the bag---opened it up despite my objections and they were alive. We put them in an empty tank and they actually ate the next day! What are the odds a fish can withstand 5 days in a bag??? Joe :o

[Don_Lee]

WOW! Now that is a story of discus toughness. Great thread.

Don ;D

Beth, Many times , the green discus is used to improve the red! Doesn't sound right does it? I think you will experience more red F2's.

Runner, sorry, i disagree with you. I believe most of the new strains were developed by fluke! Sure , there are alot of geneticists working in the field--but for the most part---looking for the next hot strain is a matter of tossing everyone in the community tank and hoping for the best.

In 2001, Julia Mann gave a lecture on Discus genetics. At least half of the contingency present for the awards banquet rose up and walked out! As gentleman, they paused before laughing in the hallway.

i like the Christmas theory--It served Beth well. She ha s gorgeous fish that anyone would be envious of! This is a testament to her Discus skills. Her fish are fantastic to say the least!!!! Joe :D

Joe, Beth,
lol, yep, got the cross backward and I humbly stand corrected on my call. My analysis of the cross is based on what I can see in the pics, under those circumstances, I gave it my best shot. Anyway, I'm glad that Beth is looking for the red traits and hopefully it'll go her way. Those fish sure have nice shape .
One thing though, of all the pics that I saw, there are at least 3 different types generated by this cross. I would suspect that with a wider sampling, this batch maybe more varied. If that is the case, I would be interested to know if you know the fixation rate on any of the f1 types if one were to try and fix any of the desired traits?
Also very curious as to why Tan would intentionally name his fish a (wg x bd) and would commercilise(sell) an f1 that is so varied. Very unAsian don't you think? he,he, btw, a very good setup.
As for the genetics part, there is a distinct difference between just "lecturing it" and practical application through years of hand-on experience. My point being, most fish farmers are not even college educated, but yet they "know" how traits can be matched in certain permutation to better their chances of success. They say, experience is the best teacher here may lie the proof.
Sorry for such a belaboring post, it's really not my style, but thanks anyway for reading. Remember this, Joe, I'm still your fan. Peace. ;D ;D ;D
And Beth, I'm also your fan , he,he,he. :o :o(j k) now can I be first in line when you get some of those frys, please???

Runner, Good reply. Mark ( Tan Chee Lok ) does not put a name on a fish unless it is a strain. ;) I have some F1 Leopard Snakeskin X Golden Pigeon from him. At F1, There is only pattern--no Spots from Pair A. From pair B, I have F2---these are showing spots. F1--no name ( crosses ) F2 will call Leopard Snake Pigeon. I have some Scorpion X Golden Pigeon F1, I will be rearing from Mark as well. I agree this is Un-- Asian like and I am also un-- American as well. :o :o :o

Many Asians will render a name no matter what--even rename the fish when they bought it from someone else with the object being exclusivity. Then there is the American --who will also rename the fish for the same reason. Red Pigeon = Paprka Spice Pigeon! What do ya think? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I think that Beth's discus have alot of potential especially at F2. With the myriad of possibilities--she could end up with quite a few strains and fix them.

I didn't keep any from the first batch--but will not make the same mistake twice! I have some at three inch now. I am a fan of Tan Chee Lok. He never ceases to amaze me! :D :D :D

I also agree on your lecturing assessment! Take Care, Joe

[roger]

There is a small side track to the you pay for what you get theory.

Regardless of price, if your getting fish that are from a fairly closed system you can be pretty confident of the genes/traits that your dealing with. Short of going over and collecting fish yourself you have to rely on the person selling you fish.

People like Oliver who collect their own fish can probably come as close to being able to give you the bloodline of the fish your buying. That sort of qaulity/information is very rarely cheap.

So if your planning on doing the wild thing or your breeding in wilds into your domestic strain price doesnt mean squat. Anyone can claim they are selling Tefe RSGs and charge you an arm and a leg for them. There are very few people that you can count on when you shell out those body parts. Oliver being one of those people.

Joe,
lol, "un..A"..loved that. I do envy you, getting all those new "setup" strains from Tan Chee Lok. I'd give my right arm to be in your shoes, needless to say, I'm also a fan of the Tans(including his uncle, you know who I'm talking about)..he,he,he. Take care.

Roger,
I couldn't have said it better.

Thanks Guys for all the input.......

I truely am looking forward to seeing how the colours develop in the F2's ( I really hope to see more red )

Joe.......

What do you think of crossing the F1 WGxBD striated female (see pic below) with a BD male? Do you think that the striations will be lost along with her stress bars?

I would love to see more striations like this and no bars. Any suggestions on how to accomplish this? Would there be another strain that you would suggest for me to try to accomplish this?
Maybe the male F1 WG x BD that is now spawning with the brass coloured F1 female?

hmmmmmmmm....... genetics are fascinating :o

http://images.snapfish.com/33686%3B8%3B23232%7Ffp6%3B%3Dot%3E2327%3D%3A49%3D8 58%3Dxroqdf%3E232337558%3B557ot1lsi

Beth

Beth, I think it would be a long time to lose the striations in these fish. Even with the crossing, Blue Diamond X Wg X BD, IMO, the blue diamond strain would be genetically recessive. maybe at F3 you might get some Blue Diamonds with a bit of pattern or striations and bar through the eye. To remove the striations, I believe a golden ghost should be used. Even this would take time--but what the hell---you are young and have the time. ;)
( called Full Color ) I think these fish are extremely strong ( evidenced above ) and have a good future for further crossings. If it were me, I would place two like fish together and improve what is already there and call it the Beth Diamond ;D Joe

Hey Joe......

Either I'm reading this wrong or I worded it wrong :-\

There's a proven F1 WG x BD female in the pic above (the blue one with the very thin red lines through her body ( the one in the middle ) I would love to see more of these without the stress bars...... in the group of 8 I recieved from Cary she was the only one like it :( there for I can't cross 2 like her..... ( do you have a male that looks like her in the group you recieved?)

I do have 3 that are that brass colour and am hoping there is atleast 1 male in the remaining 2 (not proven).... that I would like to see a pair in and really hope to see those improve in a richer looking colour :thumbsup: Maybe I could call them Beths Brass Diamonds :funny:

Thanks For Your Input Joe

Beth ;)

Beth, I think it was I that misunderstood your post. I did not keep any for myself. I only have them at three inches now. I think if you had one that was similar, the chances of getting a few by selective breeding may be good. At F3 it would even be greater. Joe :)

Thanks Joe.....

;) Beth