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nicole415
02-15-2003, 06:40 PM
I am new to discus, I have 2 adults and 3 juv in a 55 gallon tank with rock. (I know the rock has to go. How do I do it with them in tank?) My ph is 7, temp 87, ammonia 0, nitrite 2.0, no nitrate test, gh 6, kh 5. About a week ago my 4 year old dumped a whole container of tetra bits in the tank. I almost died. I did water change after water change for several days. It seemed to clear things up. My adult pair even spawned, except the male ate the eggs. First time to spawn. So I thought everything was okay. I usually change water 2-3 times a week 25%. I use tap water. I would like to get an r/o unit from what I have read on simply, but I don't know much about them or what I would need. To make a long story short, my fish are not eating good, last two days, since I did my last water change. My adult female has clamped fins and is dark. The juv usually eat out of my hand but are not even coming out. Help! Why is my nitrite just now coming up? I know I am going to start doing more water changes, but how much and how often? Any other suggestions? Could it be anything else. The adult female did have a white fuzzy spot on tail. But its gone now. I raised temp from 85 to 87. She is sometimes only using one fin.

brewmaster15
02-15-2003, 08:40 PM
Hi Nicole, Welcome to our forum! and welcome to discus!!!


How long has your tank been set up?

for you to have Nitrites it would indicate to me that the bio filter is not quite cycled yet. Before you remove anything that may have good bacteria on it ...what kind of filter are you using?

can you increase your water changes to 50 % daily ? If you can it would help greatly with keeping the nitrites low while you are figuring out whats going on.

I would also add 1-2 tablespoons of salt to the tank.... it protects against Nitrite poisoning.

take small steps here... Ro water filters aren't a necessity and your water looks fine... do you have to treat for chlorine or chloramine in your water?


Do you age your water to stabilize the pH, or go straight from the tap?

-al

nicole415
02-16-2003, 12:30 AM
My tank has been set up about 8 weeks. Yes I can do 50% water changes. I treat for cholrine with stress coat. I have an aqua 300 power filter and a topfin 60 power filter. The topfin came with the tank, I added the aquaclear. I go straight from the tap on my water. I was using 6.5 Ph when adding water, it wasn't holding very long. From what I have read on here I didn't need to use it, so last water change I did not use it. I have added the salt. Thanks!

Carol_Roberts
02-16-2003, 02:32 AM
does your tap water contain chlorine or chloramine?

Since you don't store or "age" your water to rid it of chlorine (and stablize pH) I wonder if the chlorine/chloramines in your tap water killed your filter?

I hope others on the board can recommend a good dechlor product to use - maybe Prime? (I have a well so don't need dechlor prodcuts) You don't need the aloe, etc. in stress coat.

Al gave you good advice regarding the EXTRA water changes and SALT. You filter should be back to normal in a few days.

ps. Don't do 50% water changes if the pH from your tap is lots lower than the water in your tank. Big pH swings stress discus. Do you know what the pH is from your tap and in your tank ? It may be better to do two 25% WC since you don't have water storage . . . .

nicole415
02-16-2003, 02:51 AM
I'm not sure whether my tap has chlorine or chloramine. The ph from my tap is 7.4. Should I add salt with every water change or just once? I just did a 50% water change and my juve's are out and acting better. :) Adult female still looks bad but is moving around a little more. Nitrite is still very high. :( Thanks for helping. I have visited other web sites but I think this one is tops. Very helpful and educational. Its wonderful to know people want to help.

chuck
02-16-2003, 11:20 AM
Nicole, For What It's Worth I agree with Al and Carol.
I would keep up with the water changes until your Bio filter re-establish's itself.

Also I would cut down on the feeding's for a few days. (the fish produce less waste).

Have you ever taken a nitrite reading from your tap water? Just a shot in the dark...
I've used stress guard with no problems but I now use Prime. It's more concentrated (use less) and it doesn't have the extra "snakeoil" ;D thrown in.

good luck,
Chuck

Ardan
02-16-2003, 11:28 AM
Hi Nicole,
To see if your water has chlorine or chloramines, you can call the water dept.
or
You can use a water conditioner that removes the chlorine (make sure to do this before doing wc's) and then test the water for ammonia. (if chloramine = chlorine + ammonia added by the city to kill pathogens) , if ammonia is left , then the city uses chloramines (most likely).
If you have chloramines let us know and we can make recommendations to help.


Yes water changes and salt, and small feedings. also siphon out any waste at least once a day. Only add salt back to the replacement water for water changes (after the initial dose) that way you keep the concentration of salt in the aquarium constant. I use 1 to 2 tablsp "non- iodized table salt" for ever 10 gallons water.

do you know what the ph is? if it is over 7.0 , then nitrite is a bit less toxic.

hth

nicole415
02-16-2003, 01:00 PM
My tap contains no nitrite, and it has chlorine based on my test. My ph is 7.2. I am keeping up the water changes, salt, and small feedings.

Also where can I find prime? LFS?

I also have rock in the bottom. I know, big mistake. Should I remove it now, or later?

Thanks so much for the help!

chuck
02-16-2003, 01:07 PM
Nicole,
I would leave the rock for now until thing stabliize then I would remove it over a period of time.. It acts like a bio filter also.
Prinme you can get at your LFS of mail order: one place I use which is good is http://www.thatpetplace.com.

chuck

nicole415
02-16-2003, 08:16 PM
I have done another 50% water change. My blue cobalt is still looking very bad. None of the others look bad. She is getting worse. The nitrites are still very high. She very dark, fins clamped, rubbing herself on a rock, and starting to swim on her side a little, only using one fin. Please help, is there anything else that could be wrong? :'( Why would she be the only one out of 5 to do this if it is the nitrites?

If it is the nitrites, should I transfer her to another tank? The only one I have is a ten gallon with 5 gold fish in it. (my sons). It has been set up for a very long time. I'm not sure of the ph right now, it is usually low, but if anyone thinks she would be okay if I raised the temperature please let me know. I'm going to test the water now just in case.

nicole415
02-16-2003, 08:30 PM
I tested my 10 gallon ph is 6.4, ammonia 0, nitrite 0, gh 6, kh3. Temp is only 74 though. I am not sure she would like being in there with goldfish though. Any suggestions, quickly. She looks so bad. Getting worse fast.

Ryan
02-16-2003, 08:39 PM
Nicole,

It would not be wise to put her in your 10 gallon with such a low temperature. One of the main suggestions when a discus is sick is to raise the temperature, not drop it. If your nitrites are still high you need to continue doing water changes. A 50% change should have some affect on the nitrite level in your tank.

Nitrite is toxic to discus, as is ammonia. I'm not sure that I have any other suggestions other than water changes. Maybe there is something wrong with the fish other than nitrite.

Ryan

02-16-2003, 08:44 PM
Nicole

are you sure your nitrite test kit isnt defective?? as Ryan said....A large water change should cut the nitrites sufficiently.....Ive fully cycled tanks before with discus in it with nothing more than 50% waterchanges daily and never had they problems your describing.

Tony

nicole415
02-16-2003, 08:48 PM
No my nitrite test isn't defective. I just tested my 10 gallon and it was 0. I have done two 50% water changes in the last 24 hours. The nitrites are still high. What else could be wrong with her? Should I raise the temp in the 10 gallon and try her in there? I just put 2 clown loaches in there about a week ago, could they have given her something?

Ryan
02-16-2003, 08:57 PM
What is the reading on your nitrite kit? It may help us to know what "high" is... What was the nitrite before your water changes? How about after?

Did you quarantine the loaches before adding them to your tank?

Ryan

nicole415
02-16-2003, 09:04 PM
Nitrite reading 3.0 thats as high as my card goes.

No (shamefully) I did not qt the loaches. I have no extra tank except the one with the goldfish.

Would she be rubbing herself if it was a nitrite problem?

I just fed them and all other 4 are eating.?????????

I just noticed her tail fin has 2 splits in it.

Aquarius
02-16-2003, 09:41 PM
When you cleaned out the fish food that was dumped into the tank, did you move all the rock to get the food that would settle under it?

My son did this in my salt tank and had to tear down the whole tank to get all the food out, if not, there is your Nitrite source

-steve

nicole415
02-16-2003, 09:47 PM
Yes I vacuumed the gravel while I did w/c after w/c. When I do a water change now theres no hardly any debris being vacuumed. Its really pretty clean. Although I still want to get rid of the rock. I have cut back on my feeding the last few days.

chuck
02-16-2003, 10:07 PM
Nicole,
if 50% water changes are not lowering the nitrite level check the power filter for excessive food.
if the fish are doing as bad as you state and there is no other place to relocate him. Then I would do a drastic water change 75% -90% to give you some time. I would also add salt ( aquarium, Kosher or Sea)1 tablespoon /10 gal.
check out this site it might help.
http://www.duboisi.com/emroom.htm
i'm at a loss ..but don't panic!!!
chuck

Carol_Roberts
02-16-2003, 10:09 PM
Hi Nicole:
You want to solve the problem right now? Go to Walmart or a fish store and buy a 29 gallon or bigger tank. Fill it full of warm water from your tap along with chlorine remover. Add your filter, heater and thermometer. Wait an hour to make sure temp is correct and tank doesn't leak then add all your discus.

You have posted that your tap pH is higher than your tank pH so you do not have to worry about pH shock.

I'm betting you have lots of disolving discus bits in the gravel that you can't see.

Test this new tank after 24 hours and see what the nitrIte reading is. You will still have to do big water changes in this smaller tank. If everything is normal in this tank you can clean old tank and add discus back.

Carol_Roberts
02-16-2003, 10:13 PM
I just read Chuck's post. Did you look in your filter after the tetra bits incident? If you don't have a prefilter on the intake it could be full of rotting tetra bits . . . .

nicole415
02-16-2003, 10:22 PM
I changed the filters after the tetra bit incident. I just checked them again. They are fine. Do you still suggest another tank?

Carol_Roberts
02-16-2003, 10:49 PM
Yes, I do suggest another tank. 29 gallon is a good size for hospital, quarantine or breeding. Putting the discus in a new tank will determine if it is something in the gravel (old tank) or a filter problem (moved to new tank)

nicole415
02-16-2003, 11:12 PM
I can't get out tonight our roads are covered with about an inch of ice. I am in western Kentucky. So I will have to check into one tomorrow.

She looks like she is losing her slime coat. I'm not sure this is the right term but she looks like she has a white dust on her. And she has two rips in her tail fin.

Do you think it could be something besides the nitrite?

This may sound silly but where exactly is their stomach located. Is there anything to show me the anatomy of the discus?

Thanks to everyone for the help!

Carol_Roberts
02-16-2003, 11:23 PM
The rips in fins could be from dashing around the tank. The white dust and losing slime coat worries me. It sounds like more than just high nitrites. You can't do anything tonight. Let us know how she looks tomorrow.

nicole415
02-16-2003, 11:52 PM
I'm going to do another w/c tonight and see what the nitrites are. Going to check on tank tomorrow.

Thanks for the site Chuck. I saved it into my favorites for when I need it. From reading on there maybe it is the nitrite???????? We'll see.

It's nice to have a place like this to get my advise and help. Just hope I can know enough one day to help someone else.

Thanks to everyone!

nicole415
02-17-2003, 03:14 AM
I was wrong my nitrite card goes to 5.0. That is what my last reading was. I just did another w/c about 70%. The nitrite is either 2.0 or 3.0. They are so close in color its hard to say. I would say 3.0. They must have really been high before. How high can they get. I have done 2 50% w/c and now a 70% since yesterday morning.

Now one of my juve is looking like her. Its not a colbalt, I think its a blue turq. Its not getting dark, and its still eating but its tail fin is splitting turning whitish like hers. I also noticed it rubbing on a rock last night.

Also my blue colbalt looks swollen behind her anus. Whats that from?

Will do another w/c tomorrow morning and see what happens.

nicole415
02-17-2003, 12:57 PM
I just did another w/c about 70%. NITRITE IS DOWN TO 0.5! Another w/c should do it.

Since I am doing such big w/c do I need to add bacteria back to the tank?

Ph is 7.6 is that okay?

I just hope my Blue Cobalt recovers.

Carol_Roberts
02-17-2003, 01:08 PM
Your pH is fine. Your tank may be out of whack for a few more days as you gradually cut back on water changes. AS you cut back on water changes monitor ammonia too. IF it starts to rise increase WC a bit to bring it back down. All will be back to normal in a few days. Watch your discus closely for signs of stress. They may stop eating, etc.

nicole415
02-17-2003, 01:14 PM
What should I do if they seem stressed?

Do I need to add bacteria each time I do a water change?

Thank you again for all your help!

Carol_Roberts
02-17-2003, 01:24 PM
I wouldn't add bacteria. It will grow back on it's own. . . . very rapidly . . . .

Just keep salt at 1 or 2 tablespoons per 10 gallons in tank, heat up to 86/88 and wait. Either they will recover and be fine in a week OR they may stop eating and show signs of hex OR loaches could have brought in some disease . . . OR . . . . we can guess all day. Best to just wait and see . . . .

chuck
02-17-2003, 01:44 PM
listen to Carol,
If you do the water changes daily it will keep the nitrites low and allow the bacteria to recover. feed lightly and you should be back to the norm in no time. :thumbsup:
ATB
chuck

nicole415
02-17-2003, 01:51 PM
Thank you Thank you Thank You!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not only am I addicted to Discus,
now I am addicted to simplydiscus!!!!!!!

I never had any fish until about 9 months ago. I didn't know what I was missing.

brewmaster15
02-17-2003, 02:19 PM
Hi Nicole,
I'm glad things are resolving for you! . Nice coaching carol, chuck and ryan!..

You may want to look into adding a supplimental biofilter now. many here use hydrosponges, powered by an air pump. These give tremendous area for bio bacteria to grow on.... Give Albert @ aquacave a call...
http://www.aquacave.com/Hydro%20Sponge.htm

after this is running for several weeks in the tank, you should have plenty of bacterai to safely compensate for what you will lose if you take rocks out of your tank.

hth,
al

nicole415
02-17-2003, 05:30 PM
Thanks for the website. I just ordered one. Very inexpensive.

Thank you,
Nicole

nicole415
02-19-2003, 02:52 AM
Well I came home from work and checked my nitrites, they were back up to 2.0. I did another w/c and they are now 0.5.

I run two power filters on my 55 gal, an Aquaclear 300 and a Topfin 60. I changed the filter in one side of the Topfin, and left the Aquaclear off to see if it is one of the filters. Is this okay?

Any other suggestions?

My blue cobalt is looking better since last night. Fins aren't clamped, still dark though.

-Nicole

Carol_Roberts
02-19-2003, 03:14 AM
Nicole, I don't understand. What do you mean you replaced one of the filters in the top fin? What are you checking by turning off the aqua clear?

The filters aren't causing the nitrIte spike (you said they wern't full of rotting tetra bits) If the media is coated with mulm, gently rinse them in some used tank water.

Fish waste and rotting food waste is broken down to ammonia. As water containing ammonia passes over the filter media (pads, sponges, bio balls) the bacteria that grow on the filter media, inside the Aqua clear and Top Fin, convert ammonia to nitrIte and then to nitrAte.

Ammonia and nitrIte are toxic to fish, nitrAte is much more tolerated. Water changes obviously dilute all three.

You are wanting to grow bacteria on the filter media so you don't have to do these huge daily water changes.

nicole415
02-19-2003, 03:28 AM
So I messed up by replacing one the filter media on the topfin??????

You suggested getting a 29 gallon tank and using my filters to see if it was the filters so I thought this was another way of checking.

Doesn't it have to be the filters or my rock causing the nitrite? I'm kinda at a loss to know what to do. Sorry please explain.
Thanks

Carol_Roberts
02-19-2003, 04:12 AM
Hi Nicole:

I was worried about what might be trapped under the gravel or in the filter. The gravel itself isn't a problem - the filter media itself isn't a problem.

The test I proposed was to see if by putting your fish and cycled filter in a new bare, clean tank the nitrIte would stabilize. I was guessing the old tank had a high bioload from teensy bits of food in and under the gravel. This food was decaying, turning to ammonia, then nitrIte and your filter couldn't keep up.

New filter pads and sponges don't have any good bacteria. It takes about two weeks to grow bacteria on the new media when it is added to a cycled filter.

Don't worry about it. Keep your filters on. Keep up the tests and water changes. In a couple of weeks it will all settle down

jeep
02-19-2003, 11:01 AM
Just an observation, did you ever find out if your tap water has Chloramines? You said it has Chlorine according to your test kit, but you made no reference to Chloramines (my tap water has both). If it does, not all products will neutralize it. AmQuel or Prime are two products that will.

Sounds like thing are getting better.

Good luck!

Fisheyes
02-19-2003, 06:46 PM
Wow
Wouldn't it be a great business to have a precycled filter you could buy and forget about this 4 to 6 week cycle stuff.
Ken ;D 8) :-X

nicole415
02-22-2003, 01:41 AM
Blue Cobalt looks good again!!!!!!!!
I called the water dept, they said they treat with chlorine, not choramine.

Carol_Roberts
02-22-2003, 02:22 AM
Glad to hear all is going well. Chlorine is easier to get rid of thean chloramine. Vigorously agitating your water for several hours may be all you need, but I'd use a dechlor product just to be on the safe side.