Heckel Hair Cut!!!!

[brewmaster15]

Well not really a Hair cut, more like a Fin trim!!

Recently I undertook the Care of several wilds from my friend Francisco as he is moving. This is a temporary assignment , but one that I take very seriously as Francisco has put much time into rehabilitating these fish. The fish in question were very bad off when he got them, and though much much healthier... they bear the scars of their early neglect prior to being rescued by Francisco.

Having done some fin trimming in the past, Francisco and I discussed the potential applications of this radical reconstructive surgery... and it was decided that I would try to Undo The damage that had occurred by fin rot.

I picked one moderately disfigured fish as a test case. If all goes well I will do the others as well. Francisco has given me permission to document the regrowth here, so I will post pictures as the fish heals and we can then see how well the procedure worked.

First I selected the fish.. a heckel with moderate fin damage. Next I set aside a sharp scissors, and set it soaking in rubbing alcohol. Then I layed out some wet paper towels to lay the fish on, and carefully netted the test subject. With the fish layed out on the paper towels , I carefully trimmed the fins below the damaged area. The Tail also was trimmed to remove a bad split. The whole procedure takes only a minute or two, The fish is then replaced in the tank..

Here is a photo of the fish prior to the procedure...

[brewmaster15]

minutes after the procedure....

[brewmaster15]

This is three days after the procedure...

[Ryan]

Well, at least you can cut straight ;D I'd hate to see that fish if I tried doing it.

I've thought about trying this procedure with a female veil angelfish I have. Her mate chewed her fins off :flame: and they've not regrown like I wanted them to. Based on how the experiment goes, I may do that with her as well.

Ryan

[brewmaster15]

The arrows are indicating New growth visible even at 3 days after the trim!

heres one last photo.... This is taken today , at day4 after the procedure...

[Don_Lee]

Very interesting Al, thanks for sharing!

Don ;D

Can't resist

Al"s Fishber Shop
Tail trim $10.50 Complete runarond $25.99 ,Dye on request ;D

Ronald

[Jason]

hmm not necessary IMO!!!

[April]

my little mana i got back had fins like that..from having flags.
i medicated him....or her...and now her fins are all grown back. and her colour is good. its been about 6 weeks now. she also grew.
but i have heard of people doing this..at least they look neat and tidy. ;D
Want a job at the grooming salon?

[Discusgeo]

Al I think you done a great job on the fish. Is the Discus in any type of medicated water, maybe using a little Melafix wouldn't hurt and may speed up the growth process.
George

[Ralph]

Just a little off the sides please.

Al, when do find time to do all these things?

He looked better on the first day already. He seems to be heading towards looking like there was never a problem.

[slicksta]

Al
had the fin and tail stopped regenerating prior to this?
John

Wow! :o

Fantastic job Al ;)

I have a young adult that I may try that on. I'm not sure if it was genetic or maybe being netted as a youngster :-\

Please keep us updated as time goes on.

Beth

[brewmaster15]

Maybe a little further clarification here would help. These fish will not heal on their own. Severe fin Rot can permanently disfigure a fish by creating scar tissue. The fish in question here have healed the best they could without any further intervention. The damage that was done occurred months-years ago.

Will it work in all cases?.. its probably better in younger fish. Is it necessary to the health of the fish...probably not, unless the scar tissue opens them up to similar infections in the future. Your Guess is as good as mine here. But if a superficial trimming of the fins can allow the fish to grow to its true potential , it may be well worth it, imo. poor human care created this condition, Proactive human care may reverse it.

as a side note. There is no medication in the water, though salt or melafix may help prevent infection and aid in healing.

also as a side note... This should never be done if there is an active bacterial infection in tank, or on the fish, as you can open the fish to a serious bacterial infection.


take care,
al

[wildthing]

I have mentioned before that IMO fins like that are symptomatic of stress & internal parasite damage causing nutritional deficiencies ( untergasser, discus health p163)
IME cut spines will never regrow, tho the other fin tissue probably will.
good luck
DW

[slicksta]

Al
I agree,good goin......Reason I asked is I have a convict in my cichlid tank that has a ragged tail after a filter failure when I went on vacation 5 years ago......he is a big ugly mofo....but one of my favorites.....he got fin rot bad and never recoverd.....thought about doing what you did, but never had the chestnuts......he may be to old now.....

[brewmaster15]

Thanks DW,
I agree with you ragged fins can be attributed to nutritional problems, but in this case Fin Rot was most likely the main issue. Though I am sure nutritional deficiencies probably impeded healing after the infection. Its Guess work really. What concerns me most here is how the fish responds to having the damaged areas removed.

This fish has gone thru various treatments for parasites by francisco. I'll let him go into the specifics of this.

A close look at the last photo posted... day 4 shows that there appears to be plenty of nutrients availible here for regrowth of both hard and soft tissues of the fins.


Those dorsal spines may or may not grow back as well. We'll see. There is one that was not trimmed because I felt it was too close to the body.Other than that just enough was trimmed to stimulate new growth.... I hope :)

take care,
al


ps.. John.. nothing ventured nothing gain? ;)

[AndyL]

Has any tried this surgery technique on angelfish? I have been pondering it for a while now (not knowing others had done it). I've got a superveil hybrid black that has horrible cowlicks after a almost deadly fight with bacterial hemoraghic septicemia, after which he promptly got finrot. Any way, to make a long story short, his anal fin regrew with splits from tip to base, some of those split areas regrew in 'cowlicks' looks horrible...

Andy

[Ardan]

Nice article Al!

Very interesting.

Maybe a barber as a side job?? ;D j/k

Nice job on the discus, keep us posted.

[slicksta]

Al
how did you keep the fish from flapping.....

[Fisheyes]

;D ;D ;D ;D
Can you do anything for an old guy with receding hairline. :- :bandana:

Good work
Fisheyes

[Francisco_Borrero]

All I can say is that the fish looks as if it is regenerating well and very quickly.
For those curious about prior conditions of this fish:

-I obtained 2 "red heckels" in very poor condition, having active HITH, and very little finnage left because of a nasty and active fin rot. I offered to paid very little for them, because I saw potential in the fish. Whether or not this is misguided, is a personal judgement. I tought them that they could be saved, and shortly after was convinced.
- I provided good clean water, varied diet, and "cleaned" them by using over time, Panacur (in gel food), Praziquantel (for flatworms and flukes), and metro (for intestinal flagellates). The fish were kept by themselves for nearly six months.
- Fin rot stopped relatively quickly and the fish began to recover. Fin regeneration proceeded well, but leaving serious irregularities in the fins. There was no active bacterial infection in the fins left at all, and regeneration continued over about 1 year, but very slowly. HITH also showed remarkable improvement, and I have accomplished this with a number of rescued fish. I believe fin regeneration had stopped and the indentations would not have healed without surgical intervention. Is as if scar tissue had developed at either side of a tearing, and it would not join again. Similar to ear-piercing in humans, I guess.

I would agree that spines (hard rays) would not regenerate, but I don't think they were cut either. I can not tell well in the picture, but as far as I can see in the pictures after surgery, at least the first 5 hard rays are seen intact, and probably more beyond the 5th, towards the back of the animal. Hard rays were never afected by fin-rot, which is not surprizing as they are basically bone/cartilague.

Thank you Al for performing this aggressive procedure, and for showing the post-surgical progression. I am very happy with the results already, and look forward to seeing further pictures in the future.

Cheers, Francisco.

[Carol_Roberts]

Very interesting indeed!

Did you start at the back and cut toward the eye or vise versa? Regular household scissors? How did you immobilize the discus?

[Jason]

Al

I'm not trying to pass moral judgement on you or start some crazy thread on ethics that'll need to be locked,

I just don't understand why you did that to the heckel? from my point of view it looks like you did it purely for your own eyes, I don't think it impacted the health of the fish have non-perfect fins.

I doubt in the amazon a female would reject a male because he had a piranha bite in his tail, or shredded fins from combat with a rival male. I could be wrong though

I know your into herps, if you had a lizard with a crooked tail would you snap it off hoping the cartilidge that grew back would be nicer looking?

like I said my intent is not too argue, I'm just asking you too help me understand why you felt it was needed.

I know you werent trying to harm the fish and you had Francisco's permission, but I must say that I find it kinda upseting.

Jason

Arent ALOT of things we do to discus...changing the shape of the body, the fins, the color...done in our own eyes?

Or is it that you think the fish may have been harmed, or it may have been painful?

Just curious.

Tony

[Francisco_Borrero]

Jason:
I respect your position. I just want to understand it better. Thus, I would like to know what part is it that you find unethical, or unacceptable. Is it because of cruelty ? If so, how much pain and suffering do you think the trimming may have caused ? Further, how do you base your assessment of pain/suffering ? How is this different from grafting with fruit trees ?, or surgical repair of damaged tissue in animals and humans ?. Surely there is some pain involved in the procedures, but, do we not agree they are worthwhile ? Notice this is not about attempting to caprichously modify an animal via plastic surgery, but an attempt at repairing damage tissue following disease....

If it is not about cruelty, then what is the nature of your position, which btw, may be very well grounded.
I just want to understand it, because as it stands, I don't get it.
Thanks, Francisco.

[flogger426]

based on all the "expert" responses i can just sense that alot of poor fish are going to be mutilated in the coming days - ought to be a law against this type of ****!

[brewmaster15]

Hi Jason,
I wouldn't want an ethical debate either. When I posted this I knew it would not sit right with everyone, just as declawing cats, pinning dogs ears, trimming tails, tatoo IDs on ears, how to euthanize animals, and a whole host of other activities elicit the same response when brought up.


Certainly for mating purposes there is probably no relevance, though in some animals, The mates are chosen based on visual display... I too doubt discus are one.

I have many reasons for why I did this.


Some of them are as follows.

1) aesthetic beauty. How many would cull a fish with imperfect finnage? How many would avoid buying one because of this kind of damage? How many would avoid showing a picture of one that they had because they would get criticized by many for it? How many board posts have been heated over the topics of how a fish appeared? Aesthetic beauty Drives this hobby.

How many times have we seen ""sell the best...cull the rest"?

2) Knowledge... The knowledge of how Discus finnage regenerates has the potential to help many people that do want Discus specimens with really nice fins that may have been badly damaged by multiple causes. Pursuit of Knowledge about this fish is one of the reasons I got involved with this board.

3)I'm a scientist.. understanding the hows and whys of things is what drives me, and in turn allows me to help others.

4) Technical evaluation... The fish in question was not one of the most severely affected fish.... Its actually a control for other fish that have far more extensive damage.

5) to attempt to undue the damage a careless owner did to a member of a species of fish that I admire more so than any other.


Though I realize that superficially the trimming of the fins may be stressful to the fish, and could be construed as cruel. I think it was probably far more stressful an act to catch these fish in the wild, transport them for days in buckets to airports, then to intermediates, then to wholesalers, and sellers. Finally to an owners tank, where they ,may be mistreated. The procedure used here took literally 1-2 minutes and the fish acted as if nothing had happened moments after returned to the tank.

This will hopefully allow a beautiful fish to become what it would have been had it not been treated poorly at the hands of people in the first place.


Thats pretty much my reasons in a nutshell. I don't see it as an ethical question really...though my own ethics of responsibility to the care of these fish,, probably do play a role here. Hopefully the procedure is not looked on too critically but there are always those with opposing views on these kinds of things.


take care,
al

ps... Carol, from the tail to head, with sharp scissors --hold hold work fine.

Generallly a hand placed on the top of the fish is enough to restrain it long enough to trim. The fish did not respond to the act of trimming.

[brewmaster15]

Flogger,

based on all the "expert" responses i can just sense that alot of poor fish are going to be mutilated in the coming days - ought to be a law against this type of ****!


You are welcome to your opinion, You are not welcome to express it in an uncivil manner on this board. Contrary to you opinion of many things since you joined this board

... Your eyes are not the only ones that see the world.

-al

[jeep]

How many people would have tried to rescue this fish in the condition it was in? Because of its aesthetics, not many, which means it would have died a slow and miserable death in the back of a LFS tank.

Is it possible that the scar tissue actually made this fish uncomfortable? ??? More drag, less efficiency? Could be that this is the final step to restoring the fish's overall health as well as its aesthecs.

Based upon the success of this "experiment", maybe others won't be afraid to rescue a worn-out, raggedy fish and at least make an attempt to restore its natural beauty...

Looks to me like he's breathing a sigh of relief... ;)

Oh, I think if someone were going to mutilate a fish, they certainly wouldn't come here to look for ways to do it... JMO

[Lynn]

Brew,

Just curious..
Why not some type of med in the water after procedure? Melafix, salt, antibiotics?


Lynn

[brewmaster15]

Hi Lynn,
I think that adding an antibiotic, salt , or melafix could be a good preventive for an opportunistic fungus or bacteria to get in. If there was any question of water quality I think it would be a must., But I Felt this fish was basically a very healthy fish due to Francisco's excellent TLC.

In the wild Fish fin get torn and shredded all the time, and most heal without incident. I think if it hadn't been for the bad fin rot, and scar tissue... these fish would have healed a long time ago.

This plus...
From a science point of view, when you are trying to learn something, its best not to add too many parameters. If you add a chemical to the tank, you can't be sure that the growth was due to removing the scar tissue or the effects of what you added. This could mean different people could have very different results depending on what they add or don't add.

hth,
al

[Lynn]

Thanks Al!
;D

[Jason]

Francisco, actually wether or not the fish felt any pain did'nt cross my mind, it just seemed like an unesessary and un-natural procedure. and yes the bad treatment the fish received before it was in your care was un-natural too.

I'm sure everyone could post points and counter-points all day, for or against and it would'nt change too many minds.

Al,

fair enough, I just wanted to understand your reasoning, like I said I know you weren't trying to harm the fish

[brewmaster15]

Thanks Jason. :)
-al

[Jeffery_Doty]

Brew,

Thanks for sharing this experiment with us. I am very interested to see how the fins regenerate. I see no problem in trying to help this Heckel by removing scar tissue.

Have you seen any difference in the way the fish behaves, or its temperment?

Jeff
Oregon

[wildthing]

Please calm down and gdgwc all you anthropmorphologists. :)Trimming fins like this is about as harmful to the fish as clipping your own hangnail fingernails is to you. What Al has done is very common practice in Brazil. Many wild fish are caught with fungus knots on their fins which is trimmed off. Others have ragged fins which are also often trimmed.
I think some salt or melafix wouldn't be a bad addition to your tank Al, don;t forget that in the Amazon the water has good anticeptic & antibiotic properties from the tannic acids it contains. However, as you say, clean water is the first requirement. I am interested to see how/if the spines grow back.

:)
DW

[brewmaster15]

Thanks for the additional Insight Dave :), I'll post some more pics tonight, I'm really happy with the progress so far.

In Retrospect I think a vitamin and calcium supplimented food may also help, but so far.. Growth has been really good on a normal diet.

Jeff.. This fish acts as if nothing happened at all...which is a very good sign to me. :)

-al

[RichieE]

I see no problem with what Al did. Reason #1, aesthetic beauty was enough to clean up those rough edges. I suspect the fish didn't feel much at all. Fish suffer far more and much longer during the treatments we subject them to in an effort to get them healthy.
There is an outside chance that the fish will have less stress from the elimination of tattered fins, and that doesn't take into account the fact they are growing back which should make it easier to swim.
Good post Al. Rich

[DarkDiscus]

I agree with Rich - the fish will swim better and also may find it easier to attract a mate with healthy fins.

I also find it interesting to see if the rays grow back since one of mine recently bashed himself and could use some ray growth!

John

[daninthesand]

Great experiment Al.

It will be interesting to see the final results. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[Goldfish_in_a_bowl]

Thanks Brew,
I saw this yesterday but didn't have time to respond...
I look forward to seeing the progress and results.
Take care!
K :gorgeous:
oh..... and I really do need my hair trimmed....can I call to set up a appointment? ;D

Hey Dave W... How the heck are ya!

[brewmaster15]

Hi everyone!
Heres another set of Photos on the heckels fins.. This is day 6 ...

[brewmaster15]

and to put things into perspective... This is where we were, and are now after 6 days....

[slicksta]

Al
............how old would you say this fish is.

John

[brewmaster15]

Hi John,
Francisco would know that answer better than me, but by my best guess, ... 2years or older.

-al

will the spines at the front of the fin grow back, al??? that's the only thing i might've done different--not trim that part, and just let the rest of the fin grow back in even with them...

[brewmaster15]

Hi David,
The first 4 spines were not trimmed. The next 2 are. This area had scar tissue thats not too evident in the original pic, but you can see it here. I am hoping that all grow back, the spines will just take longer as they are not as vascular. I was temped to cut them below the lowest point of scar tissue, but truthfuly, its tough to see until you actually are cutting, and I felt it was too much.

I think all the spines will regenerate over time., except the one or two here... where I show the scar tissue..

hth,
al

[Francisco_Borrero]

I am very happily surprized at the extent and speed of recovery ! Wonder has occurred in just 6 short days. I probably should have done it long ago, but didn't have the guts. I don't mind admitting it. Thanks Al.

I have no specific information about age, as this is a wild fish. My guess is that 2+ years may be accurate. The fish was with me for about 1 year, and when he came it looked like a young, not quite fully grown adult. His companion (seen in part in one of the pictures is still ragged, and was a tad smaller but probably similar age).

Keep the progression coming !!

Cheers, Francisco.

[Surfghost63]

Hi Al & Francisco !

Thank you both for sharing this great experiment (IMO) with all of us, it's amazing the growth of the fins in just 6 days :o

Talking about cruelty, I think it's not at all here, the guys who mutilate fish in order to have extra benefit$$$$ are cruel (remember the Bat Blue Diamond and the Butterflies ? :'( ) Scientists who try to heal fish are not JMHO, I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings, it's not my intention ;)

Take Care,

Bill :guitarist:

[EthanCote.com]

Hey Al,

Great experiment indeed. Its amazing to see the new fin regeneration and how fast its regenerating.

I'm curious to see the new fin regeneration when it reaches points where there were scar tissue previously. I was told human skin has some sort of memory and I wonder if this is same case with fishes.

Keep us updated.


Cheerio,

Chi.

[discuskrib]

Brew:
you said this was a bit of a science experiment so i am assuming you took measurements of the fin length before and after cutting. i'd be interested in knowing how much was cut off and at what rate it has/is growing back if you have taken any measurements since then.

would you say that the tissue is growing back at an equal rate at all the spines, growing faster near the tail or closer to the head?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Discuskrib,
I really did not want to stress the fish out any longer. The goal here was mostly to remove the damage area and document the regrowth. Measuring each ray would take a lot of time, so I did not "measure" before I cut, but I can fill in those blanks after by using the eye size as a standard reference, measure the pixels across. Then meaure the fins, and repeat at different time points. Its a techique I use alot in the lab for another kind of analysis.
The fins are definitely growing back faster towards the tail, as One might guess... because the tissue is softer there... less bone, so easier to grow.

hth,
al

God work Al . Very innovative. Why wouldn't I think of that? I've seen fins grew back completely after a bad accident. You can basically get a good comparision from the before and after pic. Leave the exact measurement to the research sicentist. IMHO eye measurment is good enough for hobbyist. That may give April an idea for her own discus grooming solon.
Jimmy.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Jimmy,
If you know the resolution of the picture, and measure in pixels. You can be pretty accurate. You can also convert the pixels to conventional measurements easily enough..

I have another pet project I am working on, might as well spill the beans here. You know all the hype about discus with large eyes, and eye to body ratio? This technic is an excellent way to scientifically come up with hard numbers for this very subjective indicator...eye size. You can actually measure the eyes area in pixels. Eye distance to front of fish , and measure the entire area of the fish. You can measure the degree of roundness as well. All in a stressfree way for the fish.

Heres a simplified measurement.....

[fishfarm]

Great thread Al, I've seen a similar experiment on Pong's website, I'll try and find the tread and give a link, he did a much more extreme trimming and the fish recovered and was beautiful. The heckel looks so much better already! I wonder of the folks who have problems with this procedure eat meat? Ken

[fishfarm]

http://home.nc.rr.com/hammerklavier/fin_regeneration.htm
Hi, Here is link to another timming, It was on Peter Lee's site on the Discus plague. (sorry Pong! My mistake) It's amazing the recover on this fish!!! Check it out. Ken

[jim_shedden]

Ken : that was excellent.
thanks
Jim

[brewmaster15]

well,
I had strong feelings that this heckel would regenerate fins with no problem. Peters experiment definetly strengthens that conviction. Thank you Ken
-al

[Ryan]

Peter Lee also had an article regarding fin regeneration in an aquarist magazine, not sure which one? FAMA maybe? or TFH? The article explained how to trim fins in order for them to grow back properly. I assume the information on his website was probably similar to what was written in the article.

Ryan

Thanks Ken. Very informative. That's the way a good forum suppose to be. Learning opportunity for the olds and the youngs. Congratualtions to all Moderators. You all did a good job. Thanks
The next queston is why didn't they regrow without cutting? What stimulate the growth?
Jimmy.

[Francisco_Borrero]

That was a very good link Ken, thank you.
I had never seen that link, but I did read the article by Peter Lee in FAMA last year, which included some of the same pictures, and the brief description of the original source of fin damage.
The article is very good and describes a method for anesthetizing the fish (actually compares 2 methods).
Ken, Peter Lee's handle is Phog, so that's probably what made you think of Pong, which is very close.

I must say I continue to find amazing the speed of recovery.

JimmyL, I don't know the answer to THE question as you put it (why it wouldn't regenerate by itself, what stimulates growth after surgery), but my interpretation thus far has been that once scar tissue is formed, surface cells (epidermis) at either side of a cut will not join unless they are removed, thus leaving dermal cells (at least one layer below) exposed, and these may join. Of course I also ask myself, well if I understand it so well, why didn't I do it before ? I don't know why. Al did it and so far I am very happy and grateful.

Cheers, Francisco.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Jimmy and Francisco,
My guess to this....
why it wouldn't regenerate by itself, what stimulates growth after surgery), is because of the scar tissue, and I would guess the main component may be neurological damage by the fin rot/scar tissue. I think this because I worked for several years in diabetes, and Diabetics suffer from loss of wound healing ability in their late stages . This is due to The nerve damage caused by the ailment.

Nerves are very important in any wound healing, and often are very involved in tissue repair. its just a guess, but one that I think has some merit.

Hth,
al

[jeep]

It's been almost 2 weeks. Any updates???

yeah, how 'bout some "where are they now" pics?? :)

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
24 hours in a day.... why couldn't they round it up to 30 hours! ;) ;D...

Been a little busy lately... Birthday bashes and Discus helping :), but I was planning on taking and posting some this weekend..If i can... I'll take some tonight.

I will say that the heckle is doing well, and if I can get a good shot, you'll see that even the first 3 spines have started to regenerate.

thanks,
al

[discuskrib]

can't wait to see them!

[Mr.Trips]

Woooo Hooooo

[Ivan]

Hey Al, your a brave bugger! lol. He looks great so far, anymore pics. I don't really know how far behind I am with htis thread. I only found it last night. So how long ago did you do this?
I think the regrowth is just amazing!! Great thread!!!!!!! ;)

[brewmaster15]

okay-- heres the update... Day 26, at this point most of the fins have grown back except the first few spines. These have just begun to go from the blunt flat spines after the cut to pointed projections. I am pretty sure at this point that all the spines will regenerate except for the ones I did not cut. After all the growth has occurred I may go back and and selectively "fix" the spines That I did not touch originally. If you recall, I left these because I thought they may have been too damaged... after seeing what has grown so far..I no longer feel that way.

[brewmaster15]

To recap...

[SLY]

the front part of the dorsal fin will not grow back IMO.

[brewmaster15]

Some macros of the spines in question...

[brewmaster15]

A spine is basically a bone, similar to that in your arms or legs. The way these bones grow is there is a series of cells that reproduce and and then slowly become calcified towards the center of the bone.

when there is damage to the bone, like a break, there are repair mechanisms that are engaged, and eventual Collagen becomes bone. Its a complicated procedure... and one I am not that familar with but to me... There is little difference between a fracture separating two bones or a scissors , healing mechanisms should be triggered. ..whether that leads to additional spine growth or not..I don't know, but at this point there is tissue restructuring going on.

There may also be a critical role that is played by the age of the fish.

Time will tell. :)

al

ps... good read on bone growth and repair..
http://www.unu.edu/unupress/food2/UID06E/uid06e0u.htm

[Mr.Trips]

Brew, Very impressive, thanks for the update! It is amazing what kind of bad stuff a discus can go thru, and be able to bounce back! And they say the Discus is not a hardy fish! HA!

Keep us updated!

[slicksta]

....................... :thumbsup:

[Francisco_Borrero]

Al,

I am very impressed, and happy, and grateful!
The growth is remarkable. It would seem indeed as if the spines are growing well, and of course the soft parts are almost completely regrown. I imagine in turn the coloration of the fins (blue spotted pattern) will follow in due time.
And I would also agree that in all likelihood it is possible to go back and "fix" the rays that were not fixed in the first place. Amazing.
Thanks and cheers, Francisco.

P.S. I just came back from a first round of looking at houses in the Cincinnati area.

[SLY]

I don't know AL but they look different if u say the front dorsal fin spine 4th,5th,6th and 7th were not trimmed but they look so different from the pre-trim pic and the lastest pic u posted. Maybe my eye sight is poor. ;)

[brewmaster15]

Sly, Nothing wrong with your eyes, just your interpretation of what you are seeing with them... ;) :)

1,2, 3,4 were not trimmed. 5,6 trimmed to below the damage. 7 trimmed... but not below the fin rot damage... and 8 was not trimmed at all... all the spines behind the 8th were trimmed .

There is extensive rot damage between the 7Th and 8th and spines which I have mentioned several times in this post. This area I do not expect to grow back.

This is just shy of 1 Month. and There has been much regrowth, I believe more will take place... In any case... This has already shown what Francisco and I had hoped it would....That there is a good a chance that we can remove large amounst of scar tissue from the other damaged fish if he choses to do so, and improve their physical appearance.
take care,
al

[Mr.Trips]

The 6 Million dollar Heckel, Stronger, faster, better than before. Brewmaster says, If I cant do it, it cant be done!

[brewmaster15]

Brewmaster says, If I cant do it, it cant be done!
... Naw..more like
i'll try it, probably screw it up , and try it again til I get right. ;) :)

-al

[EthanCote.com]

Really amazing indeed transformation indeed, from punk discus to blue collar discus. ;D


Cheerio,

Chi.

[BLUEKNIGHT]

Amazing work Al. The fish looks great.

[Francisco_Borrero]

Al, to your open question of whether Francisco chooses to.... I would say.....go for haircuts on the 2-3 (more ?) other fish than can use it.

What I mean is that I see it is working well and I am very happy and grateful. Further, if you find the time and desire,....go for it. They can only improve their looks, and none of that would affect their ability to breed if they were to do it in the first place.
I hope you are finding enough time for all your stuff, the baby preparations and everything else, including your job. I am still looking for one. How are the red wigglers doing ?? and the Uaru ?
Cheers, Francisco.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Francisco!
How was the house hunt? The Job scene is not good here either.. calm between the storms, so for that I am thankful.

Life is hectic... junior is due on June 13, and we are anxiously waiting, luckily becky keeps us pre-occupied! All of your Fish are doing very well. The amount of maintenance added was not too bad, as I had emptied the tanks before the temporary adoption. I even selected a heckle and wild brown? to see if they would pair and spawn. They are getting along very well.


My Uaru are doing great. the smaller pair are eating machines, whereas the larger ones are a little more picky. now if we could get them settled enough to spawn I'd be happy. :)

Both Red worm cultures are doing very well. I am going to split one into two this week end.. and see what happens. I like the newspaper bedding better than my old peat bedding....They seem to like it better as well.


hope you are well, dealing with a stressful time. remember ..I'm only 2 hours away... call if I can help!

-al

[brewmaster15]

Okay my last update was march 30, 2003... its now a little over 2 months since then. The progress of this fish has been great IMO. You all can judge though. When I compare pics I see that the dorsal fins are still healing and I'll end this set of photos with a recap of now compared with 3/30.

I have no idea how much better the fish will get, but time will tell.

-al

[Carol_Roberts]

Definately a success in my book. The finnage appears much niceer now - more symetrical. I can't see the "cut line" on the new photos. Is there any color difference between the old and new growth?

[brewmaster15]

HI Carol,
I'm at a loss when I try to find where I trimmed the fins.. The color of the new tissue was initially very pale... it is not any longer though.


and to recap everything....
-al

[Debbie]

Wow, that is quite the difference. It is now a fish to be proud of.

[O]

looks great. Al, thank you for sharing.

O.

[Jeffery_Doty]

Brew,

He looks great! Healthy, happy, and his fins are looking really clean. Thanks for the update!

Jeff
Oregon

[Jason]

I was skeptical, not about the re-growth but I questioned why the procedure was even nesessary, I gotta admit the heckel looks great.......I think I even see a smile on the last pic ;D

Al,
You taking in home assignments only or outside locations also? How do you feel about travel? ;D

[SLY]

thanks AL they look better. ;)

[lkleung007]

Very Interesting Experiment Al!!

It's nice to see that the Wild has recovered so nicely.

Best Regards, Lester

[gandalf]

Great !!!

[Francisco_Borrero]

Well Al....I don't know what to say. That is indeed amazing.
The fish looks absolutely great !

The pigmentation seems to have completely covered over the regrowth. And, regarding a suggestion made back in March, I would not think it is either necessary not advisable to go back and re-trim those rays that were not trimmed before, or any other parts. No need at all. Looks very good as it is now.
Further, it appears as if there was re-growth of the hard rays, even the hardest (rays numbers 1, 2, 3) to which I (and several others) were skeptical.

Great job. You better go do some breathing exercises....with the rest of the human family. Thanks Al. You are Da Man !!!!

Cheers, Francisco.

[brewmaster15]

Thanks all.. :)

Francisco... not long now at all. :)

Take a look over in the photo gallery... I posted the rest of your fishes there. Sorry it took so long!

-al

[Jeff]

;)

[HallooNYC]

test

[brewmaster15]

Looks like I lost all the photos when club photo went down....I guess I'll have to repost them all.:(

-al

[oodi]

Yes you do Al! This was a great thread!

Judi
:)

[mmorris]

Al - I hope you do. It's because of experiences like this that Al was able to advise me to cut off the diseased end of the tail of one of my LFS discus and send it to the college science dept. for tests. It saved my fish the trip that day and her tail grew back, as Al knew it would. Martha

[Apistomaster]

I haven't seen any of the photos but many wild discus have severe damage and/or fin rot when newly imported.
While most will heal properly barring continued infections some will regenerate with bad scar lines and bent fins which this procedure can minimize..

The trimming can help assure proper regeneration. I just don't know about the hard spines ability to regenerate completely. I have only worked on soft ray fins. I hope at least some before, midpoint and after photos can be shown.

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
I have replaced all the photos lost and this time they are stored on SD's database so hopefully we'll have them there permanently. ( what a Pain!:mad:)

This experiment went on 4 years ago.....amazing how time flys...

I think theres alot of info in this thread thats good, I have used the technique many times since then...mostly on tails ...but also on the soft tissues of the dorsal fins.. The hard bony rays in the front do not heal well when cut with a scissors....(speculation that this may be due to crushing of the bones when cut with a scissors.)....There was some regrowth but not anything like we see with the tail and softer posterior rays and fins.

I hope some members got some good info.

take care,
al

[FishyMatty]

To be honest I'm not overly surprised at the growth rate of the newly trimmed fins. IME when a discus gets a fin split or a scratch they usually heal with in 3-4 days in clean water. So my question is was the damage to the heckles fins permanent before your trim?
I really have to say I'm very impressed with your ability to trim the fins so well and in such a manner to not have the fish out of water long enough to kill him.
I kind of skipped most of the tread so forgive me if this question was asked.
Was the fin trim done to get the fish back to a state fit for sale or was it detrimental to the fishes health? Or was it merely just an experiment to see what can be done in a case where this is necessary?

[brewmaster15]

Matt,
When you have a chance read back thru it... we had some good discussions there...


When a fish has bad fin rot there can be permanent scar tissue that prevents the normal regrown.. It depends on the extent..The fish in this question would not have healed on its own and had been in the possession of its former owner francisco for many months with no sign of improvement.

This fishes condition posed no risk to its health as the scarring was from a long healed infection.

To recap why I did this...


I have many reasons for why I did this.


Some of them are as follows.

1) aesthetic beauty. How many would cull a fish with imperfect finnage? How many would avoid buying one because of this kind of damage? How many would avoid showing a picture of one that they had because they would get criticized by many for it? How many board posts have been heated over the topics of how a fish appeared? Aesthetic beauty Drives this hobby.

How many times have we seen ""sell the best...cull the rest"?

2) Knowledge... The knowledge of how Discus finnage regenerates has the potential to help many people that do want Discus specimens with really nice fins that may have been badly damaged by multiple causes. Pursuit of Knowledge about this fish is one of the reasons I got involved with this board.

3)I'm a scientist.. understanding the hows and whys of things is what drives me, and in turn allows me to help others.

4) Technical evaluation... The fish in question was not one of the most severely affected fish.... Its actually a control for other fish that have far more extensive damage.

5) to attempt to undue the damage a careless owner did to a member of a species of fish that I admire more so than any other.


Though I realize that superficially the trimming of the fins may be stressful to the fish, and could be construed as cruel. I think it was probably far more stressful an act to catch these fish in the wild, transport them for days in buckets to airports, then to intermediates, then to wholesalers, and sellers. Finally to an owners tank, where they ,may be mistreated. The procedure used here took literally 1-2 minutes and the fish acted as if nothing had happened moments after returned to the tank.

This will hopefully allow a beautiful fish to become what it would have been had it not been treated poorly at the hands of people in the first place.



hth,
al

[FishyMatty]

Well al I think you did an amazing job and I'm glad he's doing well.

[Sanke]

Good

[Miss_Fish]

I used to do this with betta's all the time. When males got beat up by females, or they just got a huge tear in their fin. Cutting the fins allows for the new growth to come in healthy and with the right structure to the fins/rays.

[jmf3460]

al you are indeed the fish whisperer

[pitdogg2]

Amazing job Brewmaster. I for one would of done this several years ago on one of my Red Terrors that had been busted up in breeding. I always thought that IF the Dept. of Conservation in Illinois did this to fish they released into lake to be able to tell which year the fish were put into the lake during their yearly fish counts. They would trim different fins on different years and then use that to differentiate which year and how much growth since introduction. Several years later we still see fish that have trimmed fins. So that was my reason to never attempt this on my own.

Next time I just may.
Ivan

[brewmaster15]

al you are indeed the fish whisperer
Lol!:)

[brewmaster15]

Amazing job Brewmaster. I for one would of done this several years ago on one of my Red Terrors that had been busted up in breeding. I always thought that IF the Dept. of Conservation in Illinois did this to fish they released into lake to be able to tell which year the fish were put into the lake during their yearly fish counts. They would trim different fins on different years and then use that to differentiate which year and how much growth since introduction. Several years later we still see fish that have trimmed fins. So that was my reason to never attempt this on my own.

Next time I just may.
Ivan
Tanks Ivan! Just becareful to not damage the hard rays.

-al

[israelillo81]

Hello Al,

Very interesting thread. I have a discus with nearly complete shredded pectoral fins. I decided to give it a try on one side to remove the damaged parts. Motivated by seeing the nice recovery progress on that beautiful heckel.
I comment my results once i see progress .

Regards,
Israel

[rickztahone]

I love seeing this thread resurrected :). Good luck with your discus Israel. Take before and after pics

[israelillo81]

8821288213 First picture you can see the trimmed side. Second picture you can see how the other untreated fin looks. I will post update after a week to see progress on trimmed pectoral fin

[brewmaster15]

That should grow back fine...just keep the water clean and you will literally see it start growing back in a few days.
al

[israelillo81]

After 12 days of experiment, I have observed the fin is growing back with thew same shredded aspect. Talking to a local breeder here in Singapore he told me this is one genetic defect he has encountered before.

[brewmaster15]

Coming in a little late on this one but Israel, can you tell me your water parameters?

al

[israelillo81]

Coming in a little late on this one but Israel, can you tell me your water parameters?

al

Hi Al,

My water parameters are:

This is around 1000 Liters system (5x2x3ft tank with 4*2*1 ft Sump), Temperature 84 F, total dissolved salts out of tap is 100 ppm, PH is 7.2. I perform WC once weekly 80 percent.

Please note that this Calico Discus I bought recently hoping the damage on fins was going to be an issue to recover with good food and water. Until I discovered that the trim did not fixed the issue, i talked with a Singaporean Breeder which told me he has experienced this on fish before . He classifies this as genetic defect.

[strawberryblonde]

Hi Israel,

I only just saw your original post and your more recent ones.

I too have had discus with what looks like a shredded fin. The most pronounced was my Marlboro Red. He had it by the time he was about 5 months old. I just finally accepted it as normal for him. It didn't affect his offspring. It is also possible that any who inherited the mutation were ones that I culled so I never noticed it.

All of the now adult offspring who live near enough to me for me to visit them have normal pectoral fins.

I know that doesn't help with your beautiful calico with the splayed pectoral fin, but hopefully you can now breathe a little easier and know that it's a natural mutation and not worry about it or try to cure it.

[israelillo81]

Hello Tony,

Yes, I will not try trimming any further . Thank you for helping me confirm that this shredded fin case can be a case of genetic malformation.

Regards,

Israel

[israelillo81]

I have tried the procedure in the other pectoral fin and has grown up quite well. I will post a picture soon.

[israelillo81]

90155901569015790158901599016090161901629016390164

[israelillo81]

Im happy with the result of the procedure. Im sure the fish can swim much better now

[brewmaster15]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: