SUPER FLUKES

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Hello Everyone,

Today Am on my second day of testeing Supaverm (Mebendazole/Closantel)

http://www.chilternkoi.nildram.co.uk/Parasites%20part%202.htmhttp://www.chilternkoi.nildram.co.uk/Parasites%20part%202.htm
http://www.koicrisis.com/supaverm.html
http://www.koivet.com/supaverm2.html
http://www.algae-control.com/supaverm.html
http://www.pondrx.com/index.php

Am Useing it to treat Discus for gill and body Flukes. I would also like to thank Brigitte for suppling Us and informing Us about this Product! THANK YOU Brigitte! AKA Goldengatediscus.


Well If You Never heard of Supaverm its for the treatment of flukes in Koi fish.
The bottel reads as follows.

WARNING! Not for use with any other types of fish! (So Am hard headed)
SACRAMENTO KOI
916-797-0668

Theres a pic of skulls and cross bones USE ON KOI ONLY!
FATAL TO GOLD FISH AND SEVERAL OTHER SPECIES.

#1 salt pond to 0.3 (3tbs per 100gals
#2 shake bottel well and then add 1 ml per 100 gals of pond water.
#3 DO NOT NEED TO BYPASS FILTERS WILL NOT HARM BIO.
#4 DO NOT DO A WATER CHANGE FOR AT LEAST 10 DAYS.

Well LOL! we allready have some problems hee.hee.hee.

#1 We will be useing TAP Water! Not pond PH 7.5, KH 7, GH 7, mS 235,120ppm at a temp of 86F and adding 1tbs of salt per 5gals.

#2 we will be also changeing 50% of the water daily readding salt and Supaverm that we took out! We will Not leave the water sit for 10 days. Again We will change daily 50%

Well I started this test Thursday 4/20/03 We used 1.5" discus that had flaws that We were going to cull anyways.

Before the Discus were added to there new homes Me and My son Jack confirmed that the Discus had gill flukes only by microscope.

After that then We added to batches of Discus each to there Own 75 Gal tank.
Batch one We added 3/4 of 1 ML to one 75 gal which is the recommened dose.
Then the other 75Gal tank we added 1ML to a 75Gal tank which is 1/8 Over the dose.

The discus We used the Supaverm on are 1.5" 7 weeks old strong and eating well. 24hrs later both tanks are still doing well as far as parmeters go.

However we did notice a slight increase of ph and hardness But nothing to alarm Me much! IMO filtration on day two is still performing fine.


The baby Discus seem to be doing just aswell and still eating everything in sight! I
can honestly say I do not notice anychange in there behavior untill I do a 50% W/C and redose.

After My W/C more so in the winter cause the water is so cold it holds lots of oxygen it tends to release small very fine air bubbles that attach to the discus and are sucked into the sponge. After a GOOD AMOUNT OF AIR BUBBLES ARE SUCKED INTO THE SPONGE THE sponge filters tend to float to the top for a brief while and then sink again.

Now never before have I noticed a problem with fry when this has happened. But I
cannot lie! After about 5 mins of the sponges floating at the top All of the Discus form both tanks were gasping in the corners in a group.

After the fliters were forced back down All of the Discus returned to normal.
So what did we learn so far? Well IMO this tells Me that it could'ent hurt to add airstones and even lower the temp a bit to help put oxygen and keep it in the water when treating with Supaverm (Mebendazole/Closantel)

But I will not We will continue as planned I will just make sure the sponges are
forced back down after every W/C.

Anyways After getting all of that straight the discus still seem to be doing fine and eating well.

So If they make it the 10 days I will scope them again for gill flukes to see if it works or not. Like I said so far all seems well We will just have to wait and see.

I will keep Everyone posted on My results or changes as they come along.

HTH
TakeCare,
Cary Gld!

[April]

Now this is interesting. Hope all goes well....think i will leave it for you to use on the fish though for now.

[Ardan]

Interesting experiment, Cary! 8)

Keep us posted.
Tell Jack thanks too! :)

[DarkDiscus]

Cary,

Very interesting. It's always good to find out ways to eliminate those nasty flukes. Of course you realize that you will have to grow these fish all the way out and even see if they will breed to test the full effects of the med.

I'm really looking forward to seeing the final results.

Thanks for the experiment!

John

[SLY]

remember to shack the bottle well before use cary :P ;D

[EthanCote.com]

Looking forward to the final outcome of your experiment Cary. Perhaps we can get rid of this bugs that keep on giving once and for all.


Cheerio,

Chi.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Cary,
Sounds like good experiment. :) Good luck with it.

The Closantel is a known de-wormer in sheeps and pigs, and the Mebendazole is also used in farm animals and people. Mebendazole is chemically related to fenbendazole and flubendazole ( they all belong to the benzimidazole
group), and is also one of the active ingredients in Fluke tabs.

Ironically mebendazole is a chemical analogue of Flubendazole, and works in the exact same manner, and is considered to be pharmologically as potent as it... for some forms worms that affect humans.

It'll be interesting to see how these fish handle it. Please keep us posted! and keep experimenting!

-al

[slicksta]

Car'
Your a mad scientist I tell you.......
good goin'.....I don't have the heart to cull...and we need to keep up on meds as diseases strains become resistant by current meds........

[fcdiscus]

Good deal Cary! Always need more help with those nasties! I am currently testing a water soluble product called PraziPro- a product I purchased from Jehmco. Frank

Meben. has a similar properties and functions of Albendazole. Just add a molecule of oxygen and take away a molecule of suphur. They are too potent to use externally in a small aquarium. A few extra drops will make a big difference of life and death. If used internally with beefheart. It's not only destroy tape worms and capillaria.It also cause big round worms a serious dehydration and eventually withered into a small mass and disintergrated. That's what I have found from using it on a shippment of culls.
Jimmy.

[Jason]

Frank,

Let us know how it goes, I'm using the PraziPond stuff right now.

[daninthesand]

Cary.

A tip about the floating songes. Use suction cups to stick it to the bottom. Tie with a string. If the sponge floats, the suction cup and string will keep the sponge submerged and still maintain its funtion. Of course make the string short enough that the top of the tube of the filter stays submerged.

Daniel

[Barb Newell]

Hey Cary, how is it going? How are the fish doing in the Supaverm?

Barb

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Hi Everyone, :)

Thanks for all the posts, : )

Well I must Say all is going Very good here with the test. As of now I have No report on deaths from this Med. Both tanks of Discus seem to be takeing the treatment very well. All are still growing and eating to this day.

I would also like to thank Jimmy! For his help and the talks we had about this med and the med he is useing thats somewhat close to what am useing. As some of You know jimmy is working with Albendazole and is useing it for internal.

Am useing Mebendazole for external. both meds are very close to the same. As they say two heads are better then One! THANKS JIMMY

Anyway after the treatment is finished in 10 days I will take a closer look to see if we eradecated the flukes and report back. Again I must say all is going very well!
So well that I now started the treament on 3.5" discus. But this time am useing high heat 91F. They are on day 3 and still acting and eating well. the only thing I did notice was the outer edges of the fins seem to be degenerating some. Nothing real bad were IMO I need to worry But as of now its seems not to be spreading but I will keep you posted. To be honest it looks like fin burn after a discus is shipped.

Another thing I did noticed with this Med was BLKworms do not like it one bit!
Soon as they hit the water they go nuts and within a hour or two they start to melt. To me this is a good sign IMO! And its very possible this med will work on a few other External problems aswell. Only time will tell And I plan to share it with all of You So we will see.

Also later this month I will try this treatment on Discus + angels but this time with very soft water and low ph. Again I'll keep you posted!
Till We meet again!

THANKS everyone
Cary Gld!

[goldengatediscus]

That's good news Cary. It will be interesting to see your report at the end of 10 days after you've scoped the fish. Again, I ask everyone not to rush out and purchase Supaverm. This is still an experiment, and we will need more trials, before it can really be declared safe and effective on discus. The same applies to Albendazole. Thanks JimmyL for testing this product, as I could only one other person that has used it on discus.
Brigitte

[brewmaster15]

Dr. Cary... I'm going have to see about sending you a lab coat. :)

keep us posted!

-al

[DavidH]

Lets keep this up front, can't wait for the outcome.
I've got flukes from hades.

Thx Dave

[hunterbeav]

Hows it going Cary give us an update :)

[hunterbeav]

Cary where is the mad doctor ??? How did it go my friend ???? :)

[CARY_GLdiscus]

;D NO DEATHS NO HARM OR CHANGE IN BEHAVIOR AND BEST OF ALL NO FLUKES ;D

I will post more later
Cary Gld!

[CARY_GLdiscus]

OK OK OK,

Sorry I been a little Lazy Or should I say Selfish. Ofcourse You all know that am finished with the treatment. Well after 10 days I snached up My first Victim.

At 100Xs Me and My son Jack Could not find any flukes. At 400xs we stared to see hooks but no Bodies. Again Most know am never Happy LOL so I snached up another victim. After going over the second Discus Me and Jack came up with the same Concussion. NO FLUKES!

Anyways after treatment I waited 4 more days keeping the discus in QT at all times.
I decided to check again to see if these little pest came back. Again No sign of them
Or the hooks this time.

I must WARN! Everyone not to jump in and use this product just yet Untill more tests are done. However If You decide not to listen please note the parmeters and temp I treated at.

However I would like to Ask other Breeders and advanced Hobbiest to give it a try maybe on some of there culls for a second opion.

Also I would like to note that addeing the salt is a must! The reason for this is because the product seemed to make them jumpy. This is only My opion but I think it gave them a little burning sensation. It was very Visable in 3 days that this product
burned the outer edges of all the fins and more then lickly the body slime coat to.

But All in All The discus are still fine and healing. There was No deaths from this product but slight damage. External yes! Internal I do not know and only time will tell.
as of today they are still eating very well like they did when they were on the treatment.

I will try to keep You posted on there growth and health as We go along.
Next up are some angels and a adult breeding pair. Also I will try this product on a new set of culls but this time in softer water and lower ph.

Till We meet again!

AGAIN PLEASE DO NOT USE THIS PRODUCT UNTILL FURTHER TESTING IS DONE

I cary strong of greatlakesdiscus will not recommend this product just yet and will not be held responsible for the fate of Your discus if you Plan to do other wise.

THIS WAS ONLY A TEST!

HTH
CARY GLD!

[Ardan]

Thanks Cary!


And be sure to thank the scientist pictured in the photo at the microscope! 8) :)

[goldengatediscus]

Thanks for running the tests Cary! If there are any other breeders or serious hobbyists out there that want to try this product, please IM or email me for the supplier. It's a lot cheaper than buying it at Koivet.com. Also, do your own research into the product, and please share your results, as this will benefit all of us. Remember, if you're gonna try it, try it out on your culls FIRST, before adding it to your other tanks!
Brigitte

[brewmaster15]

If anyone else does try this med... some suggestions for getting the most info out of the experiment.

1) take the group, and verify there are flukes
2) split the group into
a) untreated
b) Supaverm (Mebendazole/Closantel) group

Known antifluke meds for comparison...
c) Flubendazole
d) Prazi

if you had the numbers I'd throw in a salt only group too. As salt has been shown effective for Some flukes.

An experiment like this would be awesome and would definetly help characterize the degree the meds all work.


Thanks for the experiment Cary. Sounds like this meds very promising, as a fluke treatment. It would be interesting to see if they come back a month down the road.

take care,
al

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Thanks EVERYONE1


I will look at them again in a few weeks Brew

Cary Gld!

[chuck]

Thanks Cary... Great info... You to Brew!!
chuck

[JeffreyRichard]

Cary ... is there any more news on this product?

[Carolina discus]

Cary and Jason,
Thanks for going the extra mile on this. As many will agree, flukes are a never ending battle. It seems like there are a thousand "effective" treatments out there and yet we still have flukes! I know that for me it is hard to test several different treatments for results due to a lack of "extra" fish. My greatest fear is that I may lose a group of fish I have been working on for a year and having to start all over to get a pair.
Anyway, thanks again for helping everyone out.
Regards,
Eric

DaveNC-I think the Hades strain of gill flukes is located in NC ;D

[DavidH]

Eric, I do ship if you'er interested. ;D

Dave

[Carolina discus]

Dave,
You're talking about your red turks, right??? ;D
Do you still have them?

Eric

[DavidH]

No I sold them, what a fool probably the nicest fish I've had. They fought like cats and dogs, she was always kicking his but. Got a few babies out of them but always had to split them up, just got fed up with it.
Bought a pair of Melons on New Year's day and they laid about an hour ago.
Eric where are you located?

Dave

[Carolina discus]

Dave,
Too bad about the turks, I saw a few pics of them and I loved um. I am in wingate about 10 minutes from Tim at US Discus. I thought Tim mentioned you had some fish to pick up soon, you're in Fayetteville right?

[DavidH]

Yeah, Fayetteville. I picked up some eruptions from Tim about a month ago.