Color feed vs Hormone

[Jeff]

I thought I would through this out and get some discussion going on it. I will post my comments later.

Does anyone have anything they want to say? Does anyone know the differences between the two? What long term effects are there and differences between the effects of the two? Will either effect future breeding in the Discus? Any maturity differences or longevity differences? Is it ok to do either? Does anyone practice either of the two? Any other comments?

[Ryan]

Well, my only comment is that I believe color-feeding and hormoning are two very different things. From what I've read about some hormones that are used, they can have devastating effects on fish and their health. Then you hear reports of hormoned fish not spawning and such.

Color-feeding, or at least the color-feeding that I do, is IMO a more natural way to enhance color. I use foods with beta-carotene or astaxanthin which are both naturally occuring.

Ryan

[Diceman]

I'm no expert my any stretch of the imagination, but from what I understand Discus need carotene as a fundamental building block in producing color. Too little carotene and the fish will not develop their color potential. The other side of the coin is when are you putting to much carotene in the diet? Common sources of carotene commonly found in discus beefheart recipes to provide color building blocks include carrots, shrimp, krill, plankton, and spirulina (in powder or flake form). One commercial source of astaxanthin is Naturose. I'm using spirulina powder in my beefheart to provide my fish the carotene they need to develop their full color potential.

[Diceman]

One more thought. I suspect that hormoneing discus to get them to color up causes the fish to start developing their sexual organs way too early in their life cycle. Once sold they of course are not subjected to the artificial early maturing the hormones cause. The fish then reverts back to an earlier stage of development to one degree or another. You might imagine the possible consequences such treatments have on the growth and proper sexual development of the fish. Just a hypothesis on my part.

[wo]

Hi:

The harmoned discus I saw 10+ years ago were really beautiful. The eyes are so red and body color so bright so I bought some and soon they died. At the moment I did not know they were harmoned till a friend of mine told me. I merely see such beautiful discus now. I do not know how do natural color feeding perform? Could they also turn the eyes to bright red? I am against any kind of harmone feeding but natural color feeding is OK.

[Carol_Roberts]

colorfeeding will make the eyes redder too.

[Jeff]

It will also add apinkish cast in the tail of the fish.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Jeff,
This is a good topic. I tried to do some digging on it a while back... we came with some good info on the hormone aspects vs natural color additives.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=8;action=display;threadid=1292

maybe we incorporate some of that thread into this discussion?

-al

[brewmaster15]

I think the key here is how color feeding works . All red colors in most fish are derrived from ingested foods. The red pigments for the most part are not synthacized (sp? :) by the fish so have to be ingested. In nature theyare ingested by the fish primarily in algaes, and crustaceans and arthropods.. In your tank ...you could add these? or add foods made of these. the result is pigments get ingested and fill special cells designed to hold these pigments. I like to call it the flamingo complex... flamingos are not pink, they are white, and they become pink when they are fed a diet of crustaceans rich in pigments(their natural diet)... or a food, fortified in them.

Theres probably an evolutionary link with fish that can absorb and use red pigments ,that coincides with abundance of crustaceans/arthropods/algaes and the fishes breeding season. (guess)

As for hormone feeding.. I personally think it tricks the body of this fish into using larger amounts of these red pigments than it would use...probably because it makes the fish think itscoming up to breeding time. The probelm is Hormones over ride all other systems, so even a 2 inch fish can be "tricked " into accumlately the pigments... but by doing this all the other hormones which govern growth and developement are altered in their expression...hence the potential for runted and stunted fish, sterile fish, and fish that breed at 2-3 inches.
Hormones even have the ability to cause changes on a cellular basis so may even affect the actual ability of the cells to store pigments (this is all speculation on how the hormone work by me.) I'll see if i can find some facts on this.

-al

I've done some unofficial and personaly studies on the subject of hormones used by the breeders for the last 7 years when I found 3 bright red turquoises trying to fertilizer a cube of beefheart. I was unable to sex them until the day they died. I had never seen a single egg laid by them. I was going around in a circle for a couple of years unable to duplicated that kind of behaviour on my own discus. Until a retired breeder finally told me about his trade secrets and when I brought up the subject during the morning tea with a few more retired professional breeders and eventually I was supplied with the hormones they were using and able to duplicate the effect on hormones. My conclusion is hormone can bring up the best of discus if you feed them between 2-3" with a very very low dosage. The color will stay if you can maintain with natural color enhancer like weeds and flower petals. This will not affect the growth and fertilities of the breed, but the F1 will be disappointed that's some experts may say they will not breed true. The fact is no breeder will tell you what they have done on the fish. The secret will not reveal to his staff who're hired for daily maintenance of the fish. No breeders will tell you their fish are hormoned. This was done on the fish for competition and those they want to keep. Unfortunately, most of the fish for export and for quick sale are not treated the same. They have to grow fast and colorful in a sellable size in 6-7 weeks, otherwise they'll have a negative balance sheet. They are fed excessive to get rid of black dust from the pigeon blood and bring out the color and pattern from the truquoise. Most of them will cause serious damage to their internal organs and death will come in a few months. When they become very dirty and less colorful or even sick.The hobbyists were blamed to have wrong water parameters and lack of nutrient and so on. IMHO color enhancer will make your fish look more colorful. They behave like the daily make up of beautiful misstresses, but they'll look very different early in the morning. JMHO
Jimmy.

[brewmaster15]

Jimmy,
can you post more on the particular hormone you worked with? the name and doses you used?

and for the weeds and flower petals as a natural color enhancer... I'm familar with Marigold Petals, and the spice Paprika..what others do you know of?

thanks,
al

Hi Brew: In respect with their profession. I've promised not to reveal the content of their home made color enhancer and dust remover. It's mainly hormonal glands from a pig and the commercially available hormone to the breeders manufacturered in Thailand and distributed by White Crane co. is CR6 for the red and CR5 for the blue. The amount or dosage varies from a baby finger nail size per pound of beefheart to 1/2 teaspoon if the order arrive just 2 days before delivery. This is a sensitive subject that no body wants to talk about. It's best to remain that way.
Jimmy.

[brewmaster15]

Thanks Jimmy! :)

I'll dig elsewhere! ;D

-al

[wo]

Jimmy:

Well written. You can still browse the Thai discus websites. They catalogue their discus w/o harmone at difference prices.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Wo,
Can you post some links to those sites?
Thanks,
al