Why change lots of water?

[brewmaster15]

Water change, water change, water change. Why do some much water changing?

This question always comes up. Why do you do so much water changing? whats all your reasons for doing it? I do 30-50% percent a day in my tanks, in my fry tanks I may do 50% 3X a day if feeding alot.

so why do i do it...

1) Discus evolved in rivers, where the water is very clean, The large volumes of water moving thru the amazon river systems would sweep away any feces, and ammonia products( nitrite and nitrates) from the proximity of the fish). There are only 2 ways in a tank to remove harmful nitrates... plants and water changes. Nitrates alone have been linked to stress, susceptibility to bacterial infection, skittish behavior.

2) Staple pH. In a river or even other large bodies of water the pH is stable. Most people have tank water that is not buffered properly to prevent pH swings. These pH swings happen because the biological processes that break down the ammonia waste generated by the fish, acidifies the water and consumes the buffers in the water. Frequent water changes can stabilize that.

3) prevention of bacterial infections. Bacteria reproduces rapidly. Daily removal of feces, and uneaten food, will impair the ability of a bacteria population like columnaris to reach numbers that are going to overwhelm the immune systems of your fish..

4) parasite control. the reproductive cycles of many parasites take only days or less. If you change 30-50% water, you can hypothetically remove 30-50% of any free swimming parasites. Wipe down the tank walls, and you'll remove many more. For some parasites this kind of population attrition will erradicate them from the tank in combination with the fishes immune system.

5)Feeding. Discus didn't evolve eating 2, 3 , 4 times a day. They evolved like most fish, eating for extended periods of time, foraging for small amounts here and there.With large amounts of their diet probably being undigestable ( blown of the bottoms with sand and grit incorporated) and voided. Most can't feed them like that. So instead, They are fed a concentrated high protein diet, and they void large amounts of waste.. This waste needs to broken down or removed. The break down process is by bacteria. All kinds of bacteria.

This waste also contains parasite eggs. Ei. Capillaria for example. This very common worm can only infect a fish if the eggs are ingested. Discus frequently will eat feces left in the tank, and will accidentally ingest those worm eggs while eating their food off the bottom of the tank.


6) In any animal husbandry ( raising of animals) cleanliness is the most stressed rule. Discus are no different. If you want the healthiest fish, Give them the cleanest environment. Its only natural that if they are not stressed by dirty water , they will grow better, and fight diseases better.

7) aesthetics... Such a beautiful fish looks better in a clean tank than a dirty tank.

8) Historical proof, many use this method of raising discus and it works. Can you use other methods and have nice fish... sure. might you have do better with fresh clean water.... MY OPINION....,. YES :)

-al

[korbi_doc]

:bounce2: :bounce2: Hey Brew, great synopsis 'bout a very important part of discus-keeping!!! Don't you think it should be posted in the beginners section also?? Just a thought... Dottie 8) 8) 8)

[brewmaster15]

Thats good idea Dottie! I'll move it there a little latter :)

-al

I beleive many hobbyists are getting information pertainent only to the Asian breeders who crowded their tanks with hundred fish and feed exclusively with BH mix. Most are so dirty that it is impossible see what type of fish in the tank after feeding. They have no choice but to do 100% W/C between each feedings or risk total death. These practices should only apply to 150 fry in a 20gal tank for the hobbyist. Not very fitting for a few fish in a 90 gal tank. I had raised discus in room temp. without heater, W/C with ice cold water once a week, feed once every other day or whenever I'm home after a 52 hours weekend shift as an intern. Fish under these conditions were developing HITH and other than that. They never got sick or refuse to eat. Most of them were humanely put down due to only skelton left on the skull. It was done long before any information of discus were available from any books. I don't recommand anyone should try it now. I don't know if anyone notice that water stay cleaner and crstal clear with less feeding and less water change with only a couple of hugh sponge filters. All I can say is treat them like Cichlid. Not the delicate discus as you all heard about. There're big difference between breeders and hobbyist. We don't need to grow our discus to a sellable size in 6 weeks. Massive W/C and feedings are not necessary for us hobbyists cause we have a job beside discus. I don't normally say that Al! Just becasue you started this.
Jimmy.

[chirohorn]

Jimmy, thanks for the input. I also agree that W/C don't have to be done as often as some say (mutiple times per day). Especially if you're not a breeder. It's good to hear others confirm this. Personally, I do a 25-40% change every 2-3 days.

I'd like to add that my fish are in a 135 gallon aquarium.

[lkleung007]

Great topic Al!!

I also do 40% WC daily in my tanks. The water sure stays crystal clear.

Jimmy, I was curious what you would recommend, in terms of WC's to the average hobbyist, who keeps 10-12 Discus in a 75 gallon and feeding 2-3 times a day.

Regards, Lester

[reptar15]

a few questions.....

would a huge tank with a few discus being fed foods like pellets 2-3 times a day "require" daily w/c's?

what if i have 10-12 discus in a 90 gallon tank and if i test the nitrates level to be very "low" after one week after my last w/c. do i need to do a w/c? would you?

if one discus reached 6 inches in one year
and another discus only reached 4 inches in one year in a different tank

would the 4 inch discus ever grow 6 inches?
is it healthy?

how large does a discus have to be to be considered as healthy??(size = health?)

do they have to be huge to live long?

can't smaller discus be healthy too? can they breed and raise fry?

[reptar15]

just curious

how quickly do ur nitrates build up in ur tank?
nitrates don't instantly rise do they?

enough to do a w/c 2-3 times per day?

if u guys ligtened up on the feedings, wouldn't that be better for everyone? the fish? you? the WORLD?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Jimmy,

Massive W/C and feedings are not necessary for us hobbyists cause we have a job beside discus. I don't normally say that Al! Just becasue you started this.
You don't have to justify your view :) I stated mine based on the points I listed. If someone has success with less tank maintenence....Great for them!

Since you obviously feel strongly about this, what would you suggest as water changes? and feeding schedules.

Chirohorn... your water changes are great for you if the fish are happy with them.... what size size fish, and how many are in that 135 gal of yours? what do you feed? how much, how often?. How acidic is the water? how much buffering?

reptar... thats a lot of questions :) you will probably find most of your answers in the back posts of the forum. but... Nitrates are best as close to zero as possible. size of the average adult fish is 5-7 inches.


all- my list is my personal justification for doing lots of water changes... find your own happy medium.. :). if your fish are happy with it...,. use what works. If your fish are growing poorly, if you find yourself posting on the disease board for help , if you wonder why they won't spawn, etc Pick up a book on the Amazon to read in your spare time, and consider upping your water changes.... a few minutes a day on tank cleaning goes a long way in maintaining healthy fish.

-al

[reptar15]

i'm just asking
if ur water quality is "good" then do u guys agree that a w/c is not required till the nitrates and amonia rise too much?

[discus_nw]

I change 40% daily because that's what Wattley said to do. ;) I have been doing it for years now. ;D

I change more when I have too many fish in a tank. :o

[reptar15]

how u guys know ur not overdoing it though?
and some of ur effort and water is going to waste?

if all the "experts" started feeding their discus with pellets and got awesome results in, i'm sure everyone else would start using it rite? but wouldn't u also want to know waht's in those pellets which is responsible for the results? and if these pellets are expensive as hell wouldn't u also want to know the minimum required to get good results?

[brewmaster15]

How can you have too much good clean water? as long as its the same temp and pH.. Theres no way that it should have a negative effect.

why not start at the a high amount of clean water and slowly do your changes less often and find what works best?.


How do you know that you can't get better results with more water changes if you don't try it?

I have been keeping Discus for about 10 years and in the beginning, I did everything wrong you can imagine. I do what I do now because its what I found that works best for me. Not because others do it. I do plenty on my own that others don't do! :)

-al

[thebaglady]

Reptar 15 I think what you're asking doesnt' make sense for any fish, especially discus. Higher readings shouldn't exceed zero for nitrates or ammonia.

It is dependent on various things---bio load, size of tank, temperature of tank etc...but some fish are more sensitive. Why put added stress on the fish if you don't have to?

Find out about other things to do with your spent water, don't be stingy about the water changes.

PS I'm a newbie, but I understand this one. 8) Jen K.

[RAWesolowski]

Reptar,

Good questions and the answer tot hem is personal standards. I've gone both ways on water changes including RO/tap mix. I have found that my fish in the planted aquarium respond better, that is to say, livelier, healthier and less skittish with daily water changes. Additionally, I have found that I have fewer maintenance problems with algae with the water changes and keeping what I consider to be high cleanliness standards.

Fish losses are minimal over the last 18 months with purchased fish at the 2 to 2.5" size. Out of 20 purchases, I have had 2 losses, one suicide and one homicide. At any dollar amount per fish, the mortality savings are excellent.

Started out feeding the fish beef heart but maintning cleanliness with beefheart in the planted tank is difficult. Same is true with pellets and flakes. After lots of reading on the board, I tried CBW. Fish love it and I loe it as I scatter feed. When the fish slow their feeding and worms hit bottom I stop. Tanks stay cleaner and fish are much more attentive when I feed.

All personal preferences developed over the past year. Like anything, you read, listen and decide what you want to try.

Good luck!



,Losses

[reptar15]

How can you have too much good clean water? as long as its the same temp and pH.. Theres no way that it should have a negative effect.

why not start at the a high amount of clean water and slowly do your changes less often and find what works best?.


How do you know that you can't get better results with more water changes if you don't try it?

I have been keeping Discus for about 10 years and in the beginning, I did everything wrong you can imagine. I do what I do now because its what I found that works best for me. Not because others do it. I do plenty on my own that others don't do! :)

-al


i never said too much clean water is bad
but it's like saying u buy a good quality fish for a million bucks.

i understand each person has a different set up and feeding schedules.

but wouldn't make more sense, rather than to just jump to 50% w/c per day out of the hat :
but
set up ur tank and cycle the filters properly and add however many fish u think u can maintain in there. once u begin a consistent feeding scheduale why not test the water parameters IMMEDIATELY after a w/c and continue checking to see aprroxmately after so many hours ur nitrate readings are not acceptable to u. then u will know around how often u need to do a w/c.
doesn't that make more sense than to do 40-50% w/c cause it worked for one guy?
feel free to disagree

[reptar15]

Reptar 15 I think what you're asking doesnt' make sense for any fish, especially discus. Higher readings shouldn't exceed zero for nitrates or ammonia.

It is dependent on various things---bio load, size of tank, temperature of tank etc...but some fish are more sensitive. Why put added stress on the fish if you don't have to?

Find out about other things to do with your spent water, don't be stingy about the water changes.

PS I'm a newbie, but I understand this one. 8) Jen K.


ur rite, why put stress on fish if u don't have to? maybe it's the way i do my w/c but my fish usually get stressed when i do them.
but one could also ask why do something if u don't need to?
i'm not trying to be stingy on water
if my fish actually REQUIRE all those w/c's then i would do it
i'm just suggesting the fact that if nitrates is the problem
why not find out when ur nitrates actually be come unacceptable to you.

[brewmaster15]

doesn't that make more sense than to do 40-50% w/c cause it worked for one guy?
feel free to disagree



how about 61 one people...
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=5824;sta rt=0

[NickK]

Good topic, Al. I am 2.5 months back into the hobby (lifesytle). I have some skittish discus, and tonight I found some ammonia in 1 tank, and some nitrite in another. Very low levels, but probably enough to spook them and turn their bright red eyes black.

I have been doing 50% W/C every other day. I feed colorbits in the morning, beefheart after work, and colorbits before bed. From what I read, they are probably being overfed, without the proper W/C. When I syphon their water, there is a TON of feces by the sponges. Would it be better to do 25% W/C daily, or 50% every other day.

Also, I just finished a Metro dosing and the tanks are cloudy. I thought it was just the metro residue, but I scrubbed them and the water is still hazy. Maybe this is a bacterial bloom?

I would appreciate your advice for my situation. I have a 55 with 6 discus. A 75 with 8. And another 75 with 10. All of the discus are 2-4 inches (without tail). All tanks have an emperor 400 and 2 hydro sponges. (The 55 also has a Eheim 2227 wet/dry, and that tank looks great and everyone is happy).

Thanks,
Nick

[reptar15]

did u even read my suggestion?

it simply states that each person has a different type of set up and feeding schedule

so the same amoutn of w/c's can't possibly apply to everyone

does it not make sense to do a w/c when ur nitrates aren't zero anymore? or not "clean" enough for you?

i said "one guy" cause someone here stated he does 40% changes per day cause jack wattley said so.....

even if that poll showed 100 it honestly doesn't matter to me cause no one is gonna have the exact same set up and that's why i suggested the idea of knowing ur own water and knowing when to change it.

I don't test for ammonia, nitrites or nitrates. I judge by the cleanliness of the tank and the behavior of the fish. When I started I did 33% w/c daily. The fish were healthy and grew well. The tank was stocked with 7 small fish in a 50g tank. It all worked fine. I've tried similar tank setups with much larger w/c and didn't notice any difference in water quality of fish health. I have tried skipping days, often on weekends I'll skip water changes for one or two days and it's not a good thing. I continue to feed and the crap continues to build. The decrease in fish activity on the weekend shows almost immediately. So I feel it is mandatory for my fish's health to do a w/c once a day. And if I'm going to siphon out the crap I might as well change some water while I'm there. I remove at least 10% just by removing the crap so to remove another 20% makes the time I spend seem worthwhile, although I admit I've never tried just removing the 10%. So that is how I've arrived at my minimum of 33% daily. It has worked for me and so I follow that rule of thumb.

Now my tanks are much more heavily stocked then that first tank. I keep more fish in each tank and the increased population seems to keep them more secure, they eat better and as a result they stay healthier. I have been cutting down on my feeding from my previous high but I do feed 3x a day, beefheart, pellets & bloodworms. Because of the increased stocking density, often twice as many fish per 10g, I increased my w/c to 50%. I found that with the 33% w/c the water quality was degrading. With my fry tanks I really overstock and do 50% w/c twice a day. As they grow I split them into larger tanks and cut back the w/c to once a day. So I adjust my changes to the tanks and the stocking density. It's no set formula, I base it on how the tank looks before the w/c. You can use nitrates as your measure, whatever works for you.

btw, my fish don't get stressed at all from w/c. They are so used to me they seem to welcome me to their tank. With fry I have to really watch that I don't put my hand in too long when I put the siphon in or they will get sucked up. They don't hide, they swm around checking out the crap that I'm removing. Some of the adults bumb the pipe as it gets close to them and I have to reach in and move them with my hand. If your fish are stressed by w/c then maybe you should do them more often and they'll get used to you and the w/c.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Nick,
the haze in the water probably is a bacterial bloom. Metro has been known to cause that because of the sugar base it has.

My suggestion.. do as much water changes as possible DAILY in that tank until the water is clear. Why? because bacteria reproduce rapidly. You have a better chance of getting the tank clear if you remove 25-50% of the bacteria daily, rather than every other day


Reptar- A note on the water changes and stressing the fish. If they are stressing the fish... whats your source of water? Are you using it straight from the tap and unaged... or aging it and heating it?


hth,
al

[reptar15]

"The tank was stocked with 7 small fish in a 50g tank. It all worked fine. I've tried similar tank setups with much larger w/c and didn't notice any difference in water quality of fish health." dave c

u just proved the point that i was trying to get at.....there is no use of going overboard after a certain point...

i honestly think it dpends on ur set up and each person has to figure out the point where more w/c's won't make a difference with the water quality.

is changing the water 100% every second better than every minute?

[reptar15]

for some reason my discus dont' like it when i put the syphon into the tank

maybe i should leave it in there for a day or two so they can get used to it or something.

i don't age my water, ph is almost the exactly the same from the tap compared to the "old" water in the tank. i use a themometer to try to get the temperature as close as possible

Your point was obvious to begin with. Of course you can go overboard and change so much water that the incremental benefit of the last gallon is nil. But you tell me what would be better to tell a newbie to Discus...

a) change as much water as you like, as often as you like and when your fish seem to be the "happiest" you've changed enough water...

or maybe this....

b) only change water when your nitrate test measures 5ppm, test it every morning and if it is 5 or higher change some water, how much water? I don't know, it depends on too many factors so just change some water and then test it the next morning, if it's higher change more water, don't plan on a "schedule" for water changes, just change it haphazardly based on a nitrate test....

or this...

c) I find that 33% daily is the minimum for a tank stocked with 1 fish per 10g and a bare bottom, if you exceed this stocking density increase the % or just do 50% to be safe and lower the % changed as you feel comfortable that your fish are healthy.

Reptar

I agree with dave and...if your fish are stressed by a waterchange...your either not doing enough of them...or your not matching perameters close enough.
Proper water changes shouldnt freak the fish out...Mine "play" in the return water...at 900gph :o

Tony
80% a day guy ;)

[NickK]

Al,
Here is a pic I just took to show you the cloudy water. Not the best pic, but you get the idea. Do you still think it is bacterial? If so, how long before it should clear up?

Thanks,
Nick

[reptar15]

the fish are actually fine a few minutes after the w/c and back to normal eating

they just hate it when i put my hands into the tank or anything else which isn't food.

i will try based on the nitrate testings and keep u guys updated on what happens. gonna get some fry froma friend we'll see what happens.

how bout this for a discus keeper (i don't care if he/she is a newb or not cause it doesn't matter)

d) test ur water parameters. if nitrates go above zero or to a certain point that u are not comfortable with then do a water change and test the water again to see what happens. if u keep testing the water then ur'll figure out the intervals between needed w/c's. of course u can over lap a bit but after that ur'll be replacing water with zero nitrates.

u can't set a speicific percentage for every discus keeper out there.

[brewmaster15]

hi Nick,
The tank doesn't look that bad too me. Its hard to tell from the pic, but cloudy water is only caused by a few things...algae, bacteria, and excess organics are the most common... all should clear up with water changes.

hth,

ps... Nice looking fish Nick! :) you are doing well with them!

[brewmaster15]

reptar,
lets take a step back here. How exactly do you treat your water changes. what are your parameter out off the tap, aged over night, and in the tank before water change, and after a water change?

-al

[discus_nw]

There is more to changing water than removing nitrates. Other organics that we don't have the capacity to measure are also in need of removal. Wattley has done many studies on water (food too) and the results of his experiments are what I base the water changing I do, not just because he said to change 40% daily.

There is no such thing as too big a water change if the same parameters are matched. 50% a day is better than 10% a day everytime, and 90% would be better still. To say otherwise, is like saying a man cannot go outdoors in the fresh air after spending all day in a building with 100% recycled air because the fresh air would burn his lungs. ;)

[NickK]

Al,
Thanks for your help and comments. I knew they were growing fast, but they are doing great (even with me at the helm). Here is a pic of those goldens on Feb 1, two days after I received them. They are in the first picture, at the bottom right.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=6720;sta rt=00

Nick

[reptar15]

i add water straight from the tap using "prime" conditioner.

before a w/c the ph is at around 7.8
after a w/c it's almost exactly the same but a bit lower like 7.7 maybe 7.6 if i did a larger w/c.

i don't have a digital ph tester, i use the colour coded ph indicaters and the colours are roughly the same when compared side by side.

the fish are fine after the w/c and eat immediately.
it's the second i put the python into the tank that they get scared. they actually swim around a bit when the water is being added but not when being drained.

[RAWesolowski]

Saw your post on the general discussion board and left a post that was qualitative in nature. After posting, I thought some more and decided to provide a quantitative response for the efficacy of water changes that you seem to be asking about in your posts.

Build a simple spreadsheet in columnar form. Column headings are:
"Waste Input" in A1
"Waste" in B1
"Water Change" in C1
"Net Waste" in D1

Initial input values in the next row are:
1 in cell A2 represents the amount of waste that your fish excrete
=A2 in cell B2 to represent current amount of waste in tank
50% cell C2 to represent the amount of daily water change
=B2-(1-C2) in cell D2 to represent the "Net Waste" in the tank after a water change

Input values in the third row are:
=A2 in cell A3 to repeat the daily waste input to the aquarium
=A2+D2 in cell B3 to indicate the new amount of waste in the tank
=C2 in cell C3 to repeat the daily value of your water change
=B3-(1-C3) in cell D3 to indicate the amount of waste in your tank after the water change

You can then copy the third row down as many rowas as you might wish. You can then vary your water change % in cell C2 to see the impact of water changes. A 50% water change will stabilize your water at a value of 2.0 after 9 days with a minimum value of 1.0 after water changes. A 30% daily water change stabilizes your water at 3.33 after 17 days with a value of 2.33 after water changes. A 10% water change stabilizes your value at 9.96 after 52 days of water changes with a minimum value of 8.97.

Theoretically, a daily 30% water change creates a tank that is 1.65X less healthy (3.3/2) to 2.33X less healthy (2.33/1) than a 50% water change. A daily 10% water change creates a tank that is 4.98X less healthy to 8.97X less healthy than a 50% water change. Less healthy is defined as having more excretion in the tank.

Playing with the % water change indicates a dramatically diminishing rate of return for water changes greater than 50%.

Hope this helps... e-mail me if you would like an easy to use Excel spreadsheet.

[reptar15]

thanks again!

[thebaglady]

Im gonna inject a bit of humor into this thread and it's directed to Nick...

One time, ten or twelve years ago, i had a ten gal. tank I was trying very hard to get some cichlids to spawn in (can't remember what they were, shell dwellers maybe) The tank had an UG filter, gravel substrate, if I recall correctly.

My tank turned cloudy (not green water cloudy, gray like something was "out of balance") It went on for a while. The fish seemed fine. After a water change, the cloudiness seemed to get worse, not better.

I had a friend over. He said "hmmm, how many water changes have you been doing?" I said A lot. He said....

this is the funny part......

"you should cut back, I think you're doing TOO MANY!!!" (I stopped all water changes for a couple weeks and voila.....cloudy water went away!!)

True story. Only happened once in any of my tanks in all these years. I now have thirty-eight. Heck if I knew what was wrong, maybe unrelated to water changes at all, but had to laugh just reading this and thinking back ;D Jen K. ;D

[reptar15]

I beleive many hobbyists are getting information pertainent only to the Asian breeders who crowded their tanks with hundred fish and feed exclusively with BH mix. Most are so dirty that it is impossible see what type of fish in the tank after feeding. They have no choice but to do 100% W/C between each feedings or risk total death. These practices should only apply to 150 fry in a 20gal tank for the hobbyist. Not very fitting for a few fish in a 90 gal tank. I had raised discus in room temp. without heater, W/C with ice cold water once a week, feed once every other day or whenever I'm home after a 52 hours weekend shift as an intern. Fish under these conditions were developing HITH and other than that. They never got sick or refuse to eat. Most of them were humanely put down due to only skelton left on the skull. It was done long before any information of discus were available from any books. I don't recommand anyone should try it now. I don't know if anyone notice that water stay cleaner and crstal clear with less feeding and less water change with only a couple of hugh sponge filters. All I can say is treat them like Cichlid. Not the delicate discus as you all heard about. There're big difference between breeders and hobbyist. We don't need to grow our discus to a sellable size in 6 weeks. Massive W/C and feedings are not necessary for us hobbyists cause we have a job beside discus. I don't normally say that Al! Just becasue you started this.
Jimmy.


couldn't agree with u more jimmyl!

[chirohorn]

NickK, you're doing something right as the fish are lookin' good. I can definitely tell the difference in size between the before & after pics. The red dolls (or whatever you call it) look just like mine.

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi NickK:
I loved that assortment of baby discus and you've don an excellent job with them.

[discus_nw]

I have never seen a tank stay cleaner with less water changes.

The experimentations JW did and his results speak for themselves, and have very little to do with Asians changing their water because of lack of filtration.

HTH is said to be a condition (symptom?) caused by uncleanliness and/or malnutrition. I don't see the connection that is being made in the above statement.

:)

Can we elaborate some on that?

Thanks.

[sumptnfshy]

I wasn't a big fan of daily water changes until I started doing them. After a week I noticed a significant increase in growth rate. I not joking it really was that fast. Prior to that I was doing a 30% water change every 4 days on a 75 gallon w/ 6 discus of assorted sizes and a dozen other smaller tetras and rainbows. Now I do 20-30% daily and they love me for it. I have a sump pump water change system which makes this possible. It takes me 20 minutes to da a 30 % water change on a 75 and 30 gallon tank. It cut down my maintenance time by 70%.

[NickK]

Thanks for the supportive comments about my discus. I'm trying really hard to let them grow in a stress-free tank. Next week I will take some pics of all the fish, and post the results of the first 3 months. But for now, I think I will cut back feedings and experiment with the W/C schedule.

Nick

There are a lot of references back to Wattley's experiments with wcs. I vaguely remember one, but I'm not prepared to summarze it based on my skimpy recollections. Since I'm sure many reading this thread do not have ready access to Succes with Discus (at least i don't...), can someone blessed with such accesss summarize his wc experiments and their results?

BTW, hi! I'm Sam from Toronto. I kept discus for several years in the past and have just recently got back into hobby. I'll post some pics up soon!

There is no rule to keep healthy discus. W/C is very important for a growing discus. They need the minerals in the water to grow properly. The more W/C the healthier they will grow between 1-3". That set up the shape and size of a discus. The most important thing IMHO of keeping discus is don't fix it if ain't broken. The rate of W/C depends on the clearity and cleaniness of the water. The behavior and reaction of your discus will tell you how happy they are. they have to greet me and beg for food whenever I appoach the tank. Missing that is telling me to withhold feeding and feed life food or frozen blood worms to improve appetide and keep the water clean. That will give a chance to the bacteria in the filter to perform their job. I'll raise the temp and increase the amount of water change a bit until they behave they way I like it and keep it that way without changing. I have no rule or percentage of W/C. It varies in each tank. What I must do daily is to siphone all debris out after feeding and replace the water with colder temp for the breeders to induce spawning and same parameters for smaller discus. I treat the wild completely different. I don't do anything if they are fighting and chasing each others constantly searching for food from every corner of the tank. Stalking anything hiding underneath the rocks and diftwood. I just do15-20% change and sometimes skip a day if I don't have time. Feed only once a day with BH and whole red wrigglers. That will keep them busy for the whole day.
Jimmy.

[crimson cross]

Right on the money, Jimmy..I agree with you. Healthy discus is not about w/cs, it's about knowing your water quality and what you do to get it right when it goes astray. Pay attention to your fish's behavior and adjust accordingly....granted you do w/cs to correct most conditions.

[thebaglady]

I think aqua culture people could add their two-cents worth here too. I believe they advocate large flow-through systems, changing water at a constant rate for growth, color, vigor, health.

Some native fish are sensitive. They come from non-polluted, highly oxygenated water. Their water is cooler. Their bio-load is low in their environment. If conditions are right, they thrive. Fish like trout and darters for example. When water quality declines, the fish disappear.

I think everybody can learn a thing or two by keeping natives &/or discus. But other fish too....Its a fun contest to see who can grow out a fish best starting with fry, over a years time.

I'll wager that those who provide the largest water changes win!! In fact, I've heard killie people debate about the need for any filtration, since shoe boxes are used to raise fry. As long as they're consistant about changing water (lots of water) they get good growth. ;) Jen K.

[brewmaster15]

Just an observation and I apologize in advance for it if it offends anyone.

I think often times those of us with years of experience forget about what we knew in the beginning. We balk at anything posted that contradicts what we have come to do in our tanks, and forget how we got to where we are. Half the time we don't even know any more why we do what we do. Sometimes we even post contradictions to what we posted previously because the question is slightly different and it got us remembering from a different angle. This is only natural... but for novices reading it... its dangerous.

EX. I have asked the question on QT and who does what and why many times... but few will go on record as to what they do, most just do what works for them and some don't even know why they do it. Some may even criticize what one person does, with out asking themselves why they do what they do. another example.... Ask how much they feed.. they may say how many times a day ... but no one says How much each time which is just as important. We are just used to doing it.

Thats all well and fine.... but not everyone has the same experience level. My purpose in this post was to give what I think is a valid starting point for water hygeine that is measureable, and why I believe it is good idea. ( I say valid because 66 0ut of 125 people poled... http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=5824;sta rt=30 use this criteria ...thats about 50%, the remaining do various others %'s that show no trends.) Is it the best amount to change a day ...who knows. But its a much better starting point than to say ... It depends on the tank... change it when it needs it..or when its dirty. What is dirty? Is that dirty to discus breeder, or dirty to someone used to a tank of mollies or a marine tank, and just starting with discus?

Those of us with more experience should be able to explain what we do and why, or at least recognize the need and benefits for less experienced individuals to have a quantitative starting point.

Most diseases are triggered by stress and water quality. The easiest preventative measure you can take.... Provide lots of clean water...its a no brainer, and shouldn't be a point of contention. Its water... Start with as much water changes with good clean water, aged, temp and pH constant and you can not go wrong. It will give a good starting point, and then you can scale back to find what you feel works in your tanks.

Again I am sorry, but I feel very strongly that sometimes our experiences , when not explained well... do far more harm than good. This is a perfect example ...Its water we are talking about. Fish live in water. We live in air. Is clean air less desireable than dirty air? Of course not.

-al

[thebaglady]

i don't think this is such a volatile subject. It seems like we all agree that discus require clean water....It goes back to what is your definition of clean.

If like originally posted, you have healthy fish, but they haven't reached their best growth potential, this may not be as successful an outcome as someone who's looking for healthy plus largest fish.

Clean water is one factor affecting health and growth. Some people trust their eyes and nose to let them know if their water is good. Some people want to use little test kits. Either way, We all want the same outcome!! Jen K.

[crimson cross]

Al,
Good and valid points you have made and no offence taken.
My intentions are to say that w/cs are only a tool of the trade and not an all encompassing obsession in rearing healthy discus. Understanding your water and it's fluctauting qualities and your fish, will serve you well in the later stages of the game.
If I may add, water quality is also about understanding the nitrogen cycle(in-depth) and the relationship between your pH and how that movement(up or down) affects your hardness, and how this plays into the spawning process. hth,

[Tyler]

If like originally posted, you have healthy fish, but they haven't reached their best growth potential, this may not be as successful an outcome as someone who's looking for healthy plus largest fish.

You mention here that some people are just looking for healthy fish, while others also want large fish. I was always under the impression that these two things went hand-in-hand. A healthy, well cared for fish should be large. An unhealthy one, is usually small because it's growth was stunted. I know if I'm looking at a 3" fish with large eyes, I am going to say that fish is not as healthy as a 6" fish with proportionately sized eyes. It's just like saying that you can keep an oscar in a 20 gallon tank, it just won't grow as big. Well the fish may look Ok on the outside, but it's what happens on the inside that ultimately leads to the fish's death.

So if we want healthy fish, shouldn't we also be aiming for large fish?

Tyler

[crimson cross]

Tyler,
Not true..a large/fat fish may not be the healthiest fish and spawning could be a problem. :o :o :o

[thebaglady]

Tyler, I agree with what you're saying BUT, I've had many stunted fish that never reached their growth potential, who lived many years in my tanks without any outbreaks of this or that---Diseases.

I have also moved stunted fish out of their environment where they received more food, not nec. more water changes and they grew much larger than where they had been, compared to their sibblings, who were still in the original tank, stunted and small.

IMHO, the best formula is multiple water changes and small feedings as often as you have time to give them. The more the better for both of these.

[reptar15]

i've raised 6 small discus in a 40 gallon tank with 1 water change every 2 weeks and fed once a day with frozen blood worms.
one or two of them died after a year cause i didn't know how to treat flukes back then while the others paired up.
one pair eventually killed the other fish ( i didn't know if i should separate them and i didn't have another tank back then) and grew to around 4-5". the pair laid eggs every week or even few days but i was never able to get the eggs to hatch.
i'm not sure if it was the water quality of the fish that prevented the eggs to hatch. but they were still healthy enough to "spawn."

[Very Fishy]

I am in total agreement with Brewmaster regarding frequent wc's and the reasons why. Just to add to that, one thing I have not seen regarding water quality and I am just theorizing...

Discus produce a slime coat on their bodies for protection and to feed their young. All fish produce this slime coat but discus are unique due to their large size and surface area and the unique way they feed their young. This slime is constanting dissolving into the water. This creates a breeding ground for bacteria due to the high nutritional value of the slime coating. Frequent wc's and and scrubbing down the inside of the tank removes the slime and helps prevent bacteria from breeding.

[Tyler]

Sorry Crimson, never heard of a fish not being able to spawn becaues it was too big and fat......and do i believe that statement??? lol, nope.
BTW I am not telling you to overfeed and stuff your fish with a constant flow of food....I'm saying do your daily water changes, and feed sensibly.

Tyler

[crimson cross]

Tyler,
LOL, you are very smart, I like your perception. However, to believe or not is certainly your perogative, but have you ever seen or tried to feed a fish many times a day and make 3xs 100% water changes/day? If you had, you'll know what I meant by large/fat fish. Anyway, fishes brought up this way have a tendency to egg bind(if females) or if males, unable to fertilize eggs. Just thought I'd share this with you. If you visualize obesiety, you'll get it.
Yes, I agree with your method of feeding sensibly. You are on the right track.

[Tyler]

lol....Well, that is interesting, I'll give you that much!

Tyler

[reptar15]

There are a lot of references back to Wattley's experiments with wcs. I vaguely remember one, but I'm not prepared to summarze it based on my skimpy recollections. Since I'm sure many reading this thread do not have ready access to Succes with Discus (at least i don't...), can someone blessed with such accesss summarize his wc experiments and their results?

BTW, hi! I'm Sam from Toronto. I kept discus for several years in the past and have just recently got back into hobby. I'll post some pics up soon!


hey sam! nice to see other hobbiests from toronto here to discuss and learn.
sorry, i do not know the answer to your questions of the exact types of experiments and findings of jack wattley.
perhaps the more experienced or ones who use and believe his philosophy could ellaborate.

anyone?

[ronrca]

i've raised 6 small discus in a 40 gallon tank with 1 water change every 2 weeks and fed once a day with frozen blood worms.
one or two of them died after a year cause i didn't know how to treat flukes back then while the others paired up.
one pair eventually killed the other fish ( i didn't know if i should separate them and i didn't have another tank back then) and grew to around 4-5". the pair laid eggs every week or even few days but i was never able to get the eggs to hatch.
i'm not sure if it was the water quality of the fish that prevented the eggs to hatch. but they were still healthy enough to "spawn."

You know what reptar! I had the same experience in the beginning with some of my discus! Funny though! Out of the 12, 2 died from disease, 1 grew to full size and the rest might be runts! Another beginner experience, 6 3" discus in my planted tank with water changes once a week, feeding once a day! 1 is fully grown, the rest are runts! Why take the risk!

I know you have ask for a reason behind it over and over again!
Here's your answer:
It works! It seems that it has been and is proven over and over that large daily water changes work! I would think that this speaks for itself!

[reptar15]

thank ronca for the attempt to answer my question

u can keep repeating the same thing about more water changes equals healthier fish but it really doesn't matter cause i'm already convinced about that.


ur rite, w/c's speaks for itself, but i'm still trying to get as much info on what is it that these w/c's are doing for the discus, adding or subtracting, which makes them grow so much faster. also why did dave c not notice any more difference when he increased the w/c's after a certain point.

[ronrca]

So, let me understand this correctly! Ur not looking for the reason behind the massive, daily or whatever wc's, rather what is the optimal frequency and size of wc!?

[reptar15]

i believe they both come hand in hand.

yes, i'm looking to understand what do these large w/c's do for the fish (i know they work) and why.....

dave c stated that he stopped noticing any differences after increasing the w/c's after a certain point. just thought that was interesting since most people here preach the fact the more w/c's u do the better.

[Tyler]

Reptar,
After talking with you on this subject for a while now, i think I'm really beginning to understand what you want to know. You want to know what exactly happens during or after a water change that makes discus grow better and more healthy. The true answer?? I don't think any of us know. We are not going to be able to point out a certain nutrient which is replaced, or a particular type of bacteria which is taken out. For what I know, none of us keep discus for scientific research, just as hobbiests, so i doubt any of us will be able to help.
Your guess is as good as ours.

Tyler

[reptar15]

u got it tyler

i'm not denying w/c's will lead to healthier discus.

want to know exactly what happens during the w/c
ie. either something is added into the water or removed which affects the growth of discus.

it seems as if no one else is interested in this.....thought it would be better to understand what goes on before doing 100% w/c's 3 times a day till u end ur discus hobby career or the world runs out of water...

also the "peak" which dave c discovered in his tank.....

he stated there was no difference in the discus growth and health after increasing the w/c's to a certain point.

maybe other "experts" could comment on this

[ronrca]

yes, i'm looking to understand what do these large w/c's do for the fish (i know they work) and why..... Reading Brewster's first post, the first three or four points explain that!

We must be misunderstanding each other (not saying its a bad thing). I would have to agree that there is a certain point where more water changes do not help. You mentioned in a previous post that you changed water once nitrates reached a certain level. While that is not a bad idea, other concerns come up like increase organics in the water column, bacteria growth, etc which may hinder discus health and growth.

I guess it comes down to how much you are actually feeding also! More food, more feces, more junk in general!

[ronrca]

Sorry! Posted before reading Tylers post!

Actually, there has been research into something similar but more along the lines of the grown inhibitating hormone. I dont think there was a conclusion, meaning nothing was really found to verify anything!

[reptar15]

yes, i'm looking to understand what do these large w/c's do for the fish (i know they work) and why..... Reading Brewster's first post, the first three or four points explain that!

We must be misunderstanding each other (not saying its a bad thing). I would have to agree that there is a certain point where more water changes do not help. You mentioned in a previous post that you changed water once nitrates reached a certain level. While that is not a bad idea, other concerns come up like increase organics in the water column, bacteria growth, etc which may hinder discus health and growth.

I guess it comes down to how much you are actually feeding also! More food, more feces, more junk in general!


no i've read them, but i'm glad that u've read what i have had to say too about changing water when the nitrate level is too high.
i don't know if u read that msg i posted with 5 or 6 questions that were never answered
but they all lead to what exactly is a healthy discus and do you need a 7" discus in order to show that ur fish are healthy or able to breed.
also do u need ur discus to reach 6-7" by a certain point to show that they are healthy....

[ronrca]

LOL! Now you are starting another topic! My first answer is no, you dont need a 6-7" discus to show that it is healthy! Im quite sure that there are quite a few runts around the seem to be health though it has been mentioned that runts do not live as long! Who knows? The answer lies in spending more dollars in research! ;D

However, let me put it this way!

Who would not want a beautiful 7" discus? Or would you rather settle for a 5"?

[brewmaster15]

Reptar,

heres the simplified answer... In processes with 2 simple parameters changing one parameter can give you a very LINEAR slope where it is possible to reach 100% effect from changing 100 % of a parameter.


In most cases though, there are multiple parameters, most are not even known that affect the outcome when you change things. This give a curve that looks more like a half a bell. 100 % effect from changing 1 parameter may not be possible because of other parameters.

I'm not a stat person, and probably horribly butchered this , but you get the idea, If you want more info on the cause an effect of cahnging parameters,...pic up a good statistic book and a cup of coffee .

hth,
al

[Tyler]

Another thing to think about....When we test our water, the things we test for are ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates. If you really think about this, it is amazing how silly we are being. Sure, these may be the most important things to keeping your fish alive, but just imagine how many other things are in our water that we do not test. Do you really believe our 5 dollar test kits are telling us everything we should know about our water? No way!
Also, i do not think a discus has to reach 7" to be healthy. I don't believe all fish are genetically capable of reaching 7", just as all people don't grow to be 6 feet tall! I would say a good number to judge a healthy discus is around 5".

Tyler

[Ryan Smith]

While I can't give reptar an answer as to why water changes actually work, I can tell you that I've had problems due to a lack of them. For years I would runt out one batch of discus after another. I fed them the same as my other fish and did the same tank maintenance, but angels would triple in size and my discus would never grow.

I tried everything -- foods, tank setups, acquiring stock from different sources -- you name it. It all ultimately led to my water changes.

Why is it that I could grow angels into adults with "maintenance" water changes once every week or two, but not discus? Who knows. But I never was successful at growing them until I started doing the daily w/c thing.

I've tried skipping them a couple days here and there, but I like Dave noticed a very obvious change in my fish. They were sluggish and didn't eat as aggressively. A water change perked them right up. I would tend to agree with those who say that dissolved organics and wastes in the water have some bearing on the fish. Imagine swimming around in dirty water... you probably wouldn't feel too great either.

Why discus, and not many other fish? I guess that probably has a lot to do with their biology and natural history. I'm no scientist, so I can't elaborate on that.

The volume and frequency of your water changes varies from person to person. I personally like to do 50% because 25% still left my tank looking a little murky the next day if I'd fed beefheart or something prior to my water change.

Ryan

[ronrca]

Very interesting post Ryan!

I also noticed a difference in my discus just this past weekend! Usually I preform wc in the evening. Last Friday I did not therefore did it Saturday morning! To get back into my schedule, I didnt change water again until Sunday evening! I noticed quite a behavioural difference for sure! And thats not even 2 days, nevermind 3 days or longer! ;)

[reptar15]

LOL! Now you are starting another topic! My first answer is no, you dont need a 6-7" discus to show that it is healthy! Im quite sure that there are quite a few runts around the seem to be health though it has been mentioned that runts do not live as long! Who knows? The answer lies in spending more dollars in research! ;D

However, let me put it this way!

Who would not want a beautiful 7" discus? Or would you rather settle for a 5"?




i'm not starting another topic those questions were part of the first msg that i posted on this thread.
my other questions were from another thread but someone advised me to continue looking for answers on this thread.
the first thread is the one in "beginner" section bout how many discus in a 45 gallon tank.......
someone there stated to do w/c's daily if u want to keep ur discus alive...
that's why i asked those health questions and what exactly does these w/c's do. then dave c posted and i thought it was interesting what he observed.

[Ryan Smith]

I had a teacher in school who once asked the class, "Why don't meatballs bounce?" He sent us all home to think about it and we were to give him our best answers. You wouldn't believe the detailed explanations that some kids gave. People thought of everything... but no one got the answer right.

So why don't meatballs bounce? They just don't.

It kind of reminds me of this water change topic... why do they work for our fish? They just do. ;D

Ryan

[brewmaster15]

So why don't meatballs bounce? They just don'tObviously you never had the ones my wifes step mom makes....YUCK!!!.. we could play ping pong with those suckers.. ;D

-al

[Tristanyyz]

Why change lots of water?

My fish love to play as im changing water. Assuming you start with good water, of which my choice is aged, ro/tap water mixture. Whenever they see me by the tank that means one thing to them...LET'S EAT! Hence they are excited when im messing around with them.

That wasn't always the case. I have had scared fish too, that hide when you come in the room. I believe you have to establish a competitive tank whereby each fish wants to eat the most food. My dominant fish, a red checkerboard, makes sure he gets the most food, whether its a light feeding, or a heavier feeding. Why? He wants to ensure his continued pursuit to thrive, and continue his dominance in the tank. If the basic parameters of good health is not present, where the fish is continually stressed due to poor water conditions, they may be surviving but they are not thriving.

A healthy tank, is a thriving tank. It doesn't matter if the fish is 4" or 8", if that bugger goes to the tank and wants to eat more than his nearest tank mate he is healthy. Personally speaking who cares why changing lots of water sets up an environment condusive to a thriving tank, IT JUST DOES. It is a fundamental, its like asking why do i like to breathe. Sure we can get by when its August in Toronto, when the air is so thick you can see the yellow haze over the city. But we arent really thriving as an organism unless we have optimum air quality...back to the tank...if enough of the fundamentals are covered, you can set up the parameters not only for your fish to survive, but to thrive. Water is the most important one. After that is places to hide, ie potted plants, some drift wood etc...not so they will hide, but so they feel like they are in a safe environment. Then i would say the group dynamic of the fish is very important. Who is the dominant fish, what is the pecking order...establish a healthy competitive tank.


.

[thebaglady]

Reptar--I tried to answer your question as best I could. There ARE some research papers out there. They have to do with pheramones in the water etc...

Believe me, aquaculture people want optimum growth and healthy fish. They cannot market their product to us (humans) if not certified healthy.

I jsut don't have a ready resource to cite, but they are out there. Even as it concerns aquarium (not food) fish I'm sure.

i'm glad you agree with the basic principle. I knew you did all along. ;)

Back to my stunted Severums... They're just as eager to see me as Tristanyyz's fish. They appreciate water changes as much as the next fish. IF they had recvd. the water changes they should've had, they would've outgrown the tank long ago. Maybe I purposely stunted them!!!!??? Nevertheless, they are very healthy, just small. They are almost three years old. (I BAPed their siblings in Aug of 2000). I also sold ten bags of ten fry at an Aq. Soc. meeting and another four bags of seven or eight fish at a couple auctions. At a certain point I had to decide I couldn't even bring them to the LFS, they were destined to live out their lives in my tank. The pair was prolific with about 200 + fry for one spawn.

my fish friends would come over and tease me "Why don't you take those stunted fish and feed them to your Big Cichlasoma robersoni....One night, I took the LITTLEST one and threw it in the tank w/ Big boy. That little sevrum found a hole in the driftwood. Every day, it came out of the hole to eat. It got bigger and bigger. Big mean Mr. Robersoni accepted it as a tank mate buddy. Now it looks a lot like the female fish who gave me all the fry in the first place!! The others are still stunted and small.

What can we conclude? Like I was trying to say in earlier posts, there's lots of factors influencing growth, health and vigor. Discus seem to be more sensitive than other fish. You can't skimp on the water changes. The proof is in the many testimonials of breeders and hobbiests out here in cyberspace.

And as a footnote, After hearing Joe and Cary talk, especially on the point of how many fish they cull for this or that reason, I came home looking at my stunted sevrums with a whole different perspective..... :idea: Probably I should ...... I can't do it :-\ Jen K.