How many Discus in a 45 g and other questions.

[BumBumBee]

I have a 45g tank that I just put my first two Discus in. I was shooting for 5 but people keep saying that is too many? Also, the Discus are 2.5" long and are kind of light grey with pale blue highlights. The pet store called them "neon blue" I don't know what that means. Never heard of it. Will they become more colorful with time or what? All the pics I see are amazing but the real fish are not as impressive, but they are much smaller. Water is RO and tap. Ph 6.6-6.8 No Ammonia or Nitrite. I have 4 30w lights, an XP3 and 2 Hagen 802's on the UGF. Th efish seem very shy. I've had them for 4 days in there own room.

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi BBB
Usually 2.5 inch discus are pretty drab. They color up as they mature and grow larger. You should have listened to yourself and bought 5 discus. ;) Juvenile discus do best in groups. Yours are shy because they are scared.

You probably don't need the RO now. Most municipal water in the US is suitable for raising discus. Soft (RO) water is needed to hatch eggs which is a year or more away for you. Make your water changing regime as easy as possible. Discus need a very clean enviornment with stable water. Don't worry too much about hitting some magic pH number. 6.5 everyday or 7.5 everday, either will work. What doesn't work is the pH swinging from 6.8 to 7.4 to 6.5.

There is lots of great information on this site. Have fun reading through all the different sections.

[BumBumBee]

I am going to buy more as soon as I have some extra cash. There were plenty at the store so it should not be a problem to get some the same size. I am not very worried about the numbers that is just what they are. I do 25% water change every 2-3 weeks. I enjoy using RO just cause it's coolSome guy told me to do 50% everyday. Why have filters if your doing that? Does it matter what strain they are as far as getting along? I can get all the same. Part of me likes the more natural appeance but, I also what to get other colors.

[Carol_Roberts]

If you are only going to change 25% water every 2 or 3 weeks you may well find the discus you have get sick or at the very least stop growing. I would not invest in more juvenile discus unless you are prepared to do daily or every other day water changes. The discus you see pictured in books are simply not raised in the conditions you have now.

Discus are different than other tropical fish. Read through this site some more and see if discus are for you.

[reptar15]

personally, i would do w/c's when the nitrates get too high

how often depends on ur stocking level compared to tank size,size of fish, how often and what u use to feed.

[reptar15]

"Discus are different than other tropical fish. Read through this site some more and see if discus are for you. "-carol

would u pls be more specific when u describe discus as different?

i'm pretty sure most fish thrive better in cleaner waters, good food, and proper stocking for tank size....

[BumBumBee]

Won't the plants take care of some of the Nitrates? If the ammonia and nitrites and nitrates are not high why change the water every day?

[Tyler]

C'mon guys, the things Carol is saying have been proven over and over again. Don't give her a hard time, just take her word for it....ya gotta learn from the experienced people before you can start to make your own rules.
Or just do what you want and learn the hard way.

Tyler

[reptar15]

i'm not trying to give her a hard time

most of us hear already know that more w/c the better (if done properly of course)

but what are we trying to get rid of is what i'm interested in
the nitrates? uneaten food? the hormones?

or perhaps something in the "new" water that makes them grow faster?

i know carol is experienced and respect her opinions and knowledge that is why i am asking her.

people don't go to school to learn straight facts, they go to learn the reasoning behind things and how they work.

[BumBumBee]

What he said.

[Tyler]

Ok, i can understand that......read this thread Brew has going, it's pretty much the same topic.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=9011

Didn't mean to jump on you, just way too many come in here and just plain ignore experienced people's advice such as Carol's. It get's bothersome, ya know?
Good luck on your search for info....

Tyler

[reptar15]

thanks for the thread
i guess i'm gonna have to look for answers there?
k

[GWdiscus]

I got into discus over 10 years ago with the same attitudes and thoughts about wc and fish health as you. I went through a year of failure after failure with some successes like an adult pair producing eggs but then they never hatched.
They got into my blood then, I always regreted giving up discus and became determined to get back into them. Don't make the same mistakes, these are not normal fish and you get back from them as much as you put in.
I read all I could before getting back into these fasinating creatures over 3 months ago. I found this site about two months ago and wish I had the support and help from such knowledgable and helpful people 10 years ago! I've been reading this site almost daily since I joined and still find new and useful information, I wish I had another 2 hours a day to just devote to reading old postings.

[reptar15]

Ok, i can understand that......read this thread Brew has going, it's pretty much the same topic.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=9011

Didn't mean to jump on you, just way too many come in here and just plain ignore experienced people's advice such as Carol's. It get's bothersome, ya know?
Good luck on your search for info....

Tyler


np
but first, people who come hear to read information or "beginners" don't always have the time to read every single post and make sure the question hasn't been asked or answered before they ask a similar or the same question...and if u ask me they shouldn't have to go through the entire forum

2nd, people want to know why and the reasoning behind these things
perhaps if someone could come up with a straight up answer for all the w/c's for discus u guys could make it a sticky so that people can easily find that post and refer to that when some one or "inexperienced" asks the same question

[reptar15]

I got into discus over 10 years ago with the same attitudes and thoughts about wc and fish health as you. I went through a year of failure after failure with some successes like an adult pair producing eggs but then they never hatched.
They got into my blood then, I always regreted giving up discus and became determined to get back into them. Don't make the same mistakes, these are not normal fish and you get back from them as much as you put in.
I read all I could before getting back into these fasinating creatures over 3 months ago. I found this site about two months ago and wish I had the support and help from such knowledgable and helpful people 10 years ago! I've been reading this site almost daily since I joined and still find new and useful information, I wish I had another 2 hours a day to just devote to reading old postings.


me too, i've made many mistakes and i'm sure everyone else here has too....but is it wrong to know why people do certain things? i don't think it's a crime

i'm not even disagreeing with the fact that the more w/c the better off u and ur discus will be.
i would just like to know WHY

[Tyler]

If I knew why w/c's were the key to discus success, i think a lot more people would like me!!! I'll leave that stuff up to the experts......and i think Al did a pretty god job explaining it in that thread. Thing is....... I can't argue with results, and water changes just plain work.
Just don't get mad because we can't give you a 100% sure straight answer. People have been asking this for a while, and there isn't that one sentence answer that solves what you've been wondering. This info just comes from our collective experience with keeping these fish.
No matter what anyone says though, you won't believe something unless you want to. I wouldn't blame you at all if you wanted to try an experiment. Start with a group of small healthy fish, and split them up. In one tank, keep it bb and do daily water changes. In the other tank, have it planted, and do water changes say once a week (I say planted because it was mentioned earlier in this thread as a way to get rid of nitrates). Your results should give you the clear cut answer you are looking for.

Tyler

[BumBumBee]

Are Discus more affected by Nitrates than other fish? Also, what kind of Discus does it sound like I have. I can't find "neon blue" anywhere.

[Tyler]

Yes, discus have a very low tolerance of nitrates compared to other fish.
Your neon blue sounds like maybe a "brilliant blue" or maybe just try looking for red turquise or blue turquise.

Tyler

[reptar15]

If I knew why w/c's were the key to discus success, i think a lot more people would like me!!! I'll leave that stuff up to the experts......and i think Al did a pretty god job explaining it in that thread. Thing is....... I can't argue with results, and water changes just plain work.
Just don't get mad because we can't give you a 100% sure straight answer. People have been asking this for a while, and there isn't that one sentence answer that solves what you've been wondering. This info just comes from our collective experience with keeping these fish.
No matter what anyone says though, you won't believe something unless you want to. I wouldn't blame you at all if you wanted to try an experiment. Start with a group of small healthy fish, and split them up. In one tank, keep it bb and do daily water changes. In the other tank, have it planted, and do water changes say once a week (I say planted because it was mentioned earlier in this thread as a way to get rid of nitrates). Your results should give you the clear cut answer you are looking for.

Tyler


would like to make this clear......i never questioned that more w/c=healthier fish, in fact i am AGREEING WITH carol

but would just like to know why??

i don't want to do an experiment....that's why i'm asking
would like to know the answer to my question if anyone here knows it..

[reptar15]

btw tyler, if u or anyone else is planning to do that experiment u suggested, u won't get any clear conclusions
cause ur variables are not properly controlled.

u wouldn't know whether it is the w/c or plants that is giving u a certain results

[BumBumBee]

Nobody freak.

If the water is changed that much why not just put an RO unit filling your tank, a siphon overflow draining to the yard or something and forget about cycling, testing, filtering, peat, prefilters, overfeeding. Every piece of equipment but the heater and lights is pointless, maybe a powerhead for current. You could start a tank today and add tons of fish. I'm not trying to say w/c aren't great, but everyday. The odds of me killing the fish by screwing something up are higher than the odds of parasites.

[Tony]

I think, the thing you describe is call a 'race course' a continual flowing water kind of tank used by people that 'farm' fish instead of a hobbyist.

[Tyler]

I give up guys.....I give you a link clearly stating plenty of reasons, my own and other people's experiences, and even something for you to try if you don't believe any of it, and you are STILL asking the same questions.
I'm sorry, I can't be of any more help.
BTW bumbum, the setup you mentioned would work perfectly if you weren't just adding pure r/o water.....usually a 50/50 ro and tap mix works best. Other than that though? I would say you hit it pretty much on the nose.

Tyler

[reptar15]

doing several w/c's a day is not considered a "race course"?

how fast do these nitrates build up? enough that u have to get rid of them all after u feed?

[reptar15]

I give up guys.....I give you a link clearly stating plenty of reasons, my own and other people's experiences, and even something for you to try if you don't believe any of it, and you are STILL asking the same questions.
I'm sorry, I can't be of any more help.
BTW bumbum, the setup you mentioned would work perfectly if you weren't just adding pure r/o water.....usually a 50/50 ro and tap mix works best. Other than that though? I would say you hit it pretty much on the nose.

Tyler


again, i'm not disagreeing with the fact that plenty of w/c's are good for ur discus....how come people keep missing this??
i AGREE WITH IT

just would like to be enlightened for the reasons why
and maybe i will stop asking that question on this thread since it seems to be causing some people pain.
if u don't know the answer then it's fine i'm not putting a gun to ur head....if u do then pls respond

[reptar15]

I give up guys.....I give you a link clearly stating plenty of reasons, my own and other people's experiences, and even something for you to try if you don't believe any of it, and you are STILL asking the same questions.
I'm sorry, I can't be of any more help.
BTW bumbum, the setup you mentioned would work perfectly if you weren't just adding pure r/o water.....usually a 50/50 ro and tap mix works best. Other than that though? I would say you hit it pretty much on the nose.

Tyler


again, i'm not disagreeing with the fact that plenty of w/c's are good for ur discus....how come people keep missing this??
i AGREE WITH IT

just would like to be enlightened for the reasons why
and maybe i will stop asking that question on this thread since it seems to be causing some people pain.
if u don't know the answer then it's fine i'm not putting a gun to ur head....if u do then pls respond

[Carol_Roberts]

Sorry guys, I don't know the scientific answer either. I went through a learning curve like everyone else. I've had overstocked tanks and understocked tanks and not enought time for water changes and done 80% daily water changes . . . . . and I can tell you from my experience that they stay healthier and grow faster if each fish has lots of clean water.

2 fully grown adult discus in a 55 gallon BB tank will do just fine with a couple of water changes each week.

That same tank with twelve 5-9 month old juvenile discus requires 80% daily WC for bright red eyes and growth. I don't know why.

When the water is dirty they don't eat as much, their eyes are dull and they have a listless demeanor. Until you can recognize your fish's reaction to the water quality it's best to err on the side of over clean. For me that means no gravel, plenty of clean, aged water and non polluting food.

I have an African tank too and Koi. Both types of fish can tolerate much "stinkier" water than discus. I have a gazillion Africans in my 135 gallon. I change 25% of the water twice a week right from the tap, Algea grows all over the back glass and all are as happy as can be - I have Brichardi spawns all the time. This works in the African tank, but will not work in the discus tanks. The discus fins get ragged, they develop hex, turn dark and quit eating.

[Tyler]

I am asking you....PLEASE, go read the thread i posted. I'll post it again.
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=1822;sta rt=0

Read Brewmaster's first post, and it gives some great info. Isn't that the answer you have been looking for?? If not, maybe I am just misunderstanding the question.

Tyler

[Tyler]

Agreed, Carol :)
You are much more patient than me, hehe.

Tyler

[Tyler]

Reptar,
Read your post on the other thread, and from that i can see you are just looking to keep them casually. I am keeping them for optimum growth, size, and health, as i am just beginning to become a small hobbiest breeder, and want to continue doing so.
So that shows me that we really have two different goals.... me wanting to breed, and you just wanting to keep a beautiful fish. So maybe different ways of going about keeping the fish are really the only way to do it.

Tyler

[reptar15]

tyler, actually my goal is to breed but inorder to reach that i have to keep them healthy, and imo only way to do that is to understand what they need and require to be and stay healthy.

lol, we're not that different in goals. i just think if i understood discus better i will be able to get them healthier and then hopefuly breed them.

[Tyler]

ok then, that's cool.
Just try to get in the habit of daily water changes then...because with fry, they are extremely important to survival. If you want to breed discus, you have to be ready for the amount of water changes fry need.....as they are very sensitive to water conditions at this point in their life, and if you don't take proper care of them the damage done will really not be reversible later in life.
Believe me, I am not arguing with you, just trying to help!

Tyler

[RAWesolowski]

Reptar,

Saw your post on the general discussion board and left a post that was qualitative in nature. After posting, I thought some more and decided to provide a quantitative response for the efficacy of water changes that you seem to be asking about in your posts.

Build a simple spreadsheet in columnar form. Column headings are:
"Waste Input" in A1
"Waste" in B1
"Water Change" in C1
"Net Waste" in D1

Initial input values in the next row are:
1 in cell A2 represents the amount of waste that your fish excrete
=A2 in cell B2 to represent current amount of waste in tank
50% cell C2 to represent the amount of daily water change
=B2-(1-C2) in cell D2 to represent the "Net Waste" in the tank after a water change

Input values in the third row are:
=A2 in cell A3 to repeat the daily waste input to the aquarium
=A2+D2 in cell B3 to indicate the new amount of waste in the tank
=C2 in cell C3 to repeat the daily value of your water change
=B3-(1-C3) in cell D3 to indicate the amount of waste in your tank after the water change

You can then copy the third row down as many rowas as you might wish. You can then vary your water change % in cell C2 to see the impact of water changes. A 50% water change will stabilize your water at a value of 2.0 after 9 days with a minimum value of 1.0 after water changes. A 30% daily water change stabilizes your water at 3.33 after 17 days with a value of 2.33 after water changes. A 10% water change stabilizes your value at 9.96 after 52 days of water changes with a minimum value of 8.97.

Theoretically, a daily 30% water change creates a tank that is 1.65X less healthy (3.3/2) to 2.33X less healthy (2.33/1) than a 50% water change. A daily 10% water change creates a tank that is 4.98X less healthy to 8.97X less healthy than a 50% water change. Less healthy is defined as having more excretion in the tank.

Playing with the % water change indicates a dramatically diminishing rate of return for water changes greater than 50%.

Hope this helps... e-mail me if you would like an easy to use Excel spreadsheet.

[keith_cny]

Hi Bob,
Thats a great aid. Can you post the spreadsheet here for the grabbing.

Thanks,

Keith

[reptar15]

thanks a lot
rawesolowski, i'm sure ur idea of the spreadsheet can help many people here and in the future.

thanks again!

[Shari]

Just my two cents - I had two 55 gallon tanks - one overstocked lightly, one a bit understocked - the heavier fish volume I changed water every day or two at least- the understocked maybe 50% 2-3 times a week - guess which fish grew? Now I'm really good about it - at the least 50% every other day - it's hard and I'm tired from it but made this committment to keep Discus. It pays off when those eyes are bright and their size starts to amaze you after awhile.
;)

[DarkDiscus]

It's a really good idea to prepare for the w/c before getting the fish. I spent my first year of discus keeping doing manual w/c of 30%/day and it took a long time and was tough.

Now I have a big storage bin with a pump and do 60% w/c daily with little work and better results.

I agree with the majority here... Lots of water changed = happier fish. Also add the easier the w/c = happier owner.

John

[gazzriz]

Now that everybody has had their say. The real reason to do frequent water changes was posted by Cary. I must say I agree whole heartedly.

http://www.netlaughter.com/splish/splish.cfm


Gary

[Carol_Roberts]

Yes, but towards the end you will have to really stay on top of it - no slacking off. You will have to keep the tank spotless, clean the Aqua Clear filter regularly and at the end 50% water changes may not be enough . . .

[DRF.in.IGH-MN]

To change or not to change?
That is the question!
Whether tis nobler, on SimplyDiscus,
To suffer the slings and and arrows of outrageous discus fanatics
Or to take buckets against this sea of controversy and in doing so end them.
To water change, perchance to carry buckets,
Ah but there's the rub
For in that of bucket of buckets, what water might one spill.

[Carol_Roberts]

A 55 gallon is a good choice.

Hi DRF - shouldn't it be "for in that mortal coil of buckets, what water might one spill"