please help..planted tanks and new discus?

[jjv]

i am a hobbyist, and fairly new at it (I have had a 100 litre tank for a year with Gouramis, albino sharks, Black ghost knife fish etc. etc. for a year) I am now installing a rather large tank (100"x24"x30") and was planning to make it a planted discus tank....unfortunately, i don't have adequate knowledge on the subject and am very confused with various conflicting suggestions on the net/ LFS. One LFS is suggesting fine gravel, metal halides, CO2 injection through a pressurized cylinder system and a dry/wet biological filter (too, tooo expensive!!), powerheads. The other LFS says that i dont require any fancy stuff, so he suggests dumping of the CO2 system, Metal halides (flou tubes instead), Bio filter (undergravel or other filters instead). Please suggest essential yet affordable options for a great planted tank which works for discus. I live in India where the water quality is not that great and fish stores/hobbyists are far and few.I would really appreciate your inputs on the substrate, lighting, filtration and any other valuable essentials for my proposed tank. Most importantly, if i add smaller discus (<2") at regular intervals (a pair every month) in the planted tank, will they grow healthily to their full size/ colour since this is a large tank or will i still have to make them grow in a BB tank and then transfer them to the planted once they are larger? (Personally, i would be happier if i added them to the planted tank regularly)

Waiting expectantly for a response. ??? :idea2: ???

[TnMark]

I am not yet an expert on Discus, but I'll comment on what I've done in my 135 gallon tank.
I am using a silica play sand (cheap!) substrate. I considered bare bottom but with a planted tank I felt sand was an inexpensive nice looking alternative. I also considered laterite, fluorite and gravel but decided with Discus they were way too difficult to keep clean. The sand vacuums up easily and looks great. I was concerned about anaerobic spots in the sand, so I put in about 100 Malaysian Trumpet Snails (there are now thousands that I only see if I overfeed flake or colorbit food) and they not only aerate the sand but are a good cleanup crew for excess food.
I also have Red Ramshorn Snails who also do a good cleanup job on food and algae and do not eat the plants. Note the regular Ramshorn snails do eat plants.
For lighting I use 288 watts of power compact fluorescents. With a deep tank like yours you probably will want these too. 2 watts per gallon is a good amount for many plants. Make sure you use plants that can take the heat Discus require. I have been sucessful with
Anubias Coffeefolia, Banana Plants, Blood Stargrass, Dwarf Lillies, Moneywort, Red Melon Sword, Ruffle Sword, Amazon Sword, Tiger Lotus Red. I have been unsuccessful with many plants that need strong light. I don't know if you'll be able to use regular fluorescent lights (cheap) and get the wattage you'll need to be sucessful. Note Power Compact Fluorescents are expensive (both fixtures and bulbs).

I don't use CO2 but am thinking about it. For a tank your size, pressurized is the only possibility. From my research it is not mandatory unless you have a higher lighting situation (3-5 watts per gallon). Without that amount of light it would help your plant growth but not be necessary. Another concern is that you need to be very careful about the PH as it can drop quickly with CO2 and kill your fish. Control equipment in my opinion is a must.

I can't recommend filtration. I am using an Eheim 2028 and it does an OK job but is a pain to clean. I also use 1 sponge filter and a Magnum HOT for polishing. In all I'm happy with the filtration of the tank, just not the maintenance.

I had the same type experience as you did prior to starting my planted discus tank last December. I have made mistakes but all in all am very pleased with my results.

Good luck!!

[jjv]

thanks for the help Tn mark :)...but one question remains unanswered...whether i should start adding discus in the planted tank directly or should keep them in a BB and then transfer them to the planted...what about you...how did you go about it?

[Carol_Roberts]

Personally I would raise out a group of juvenile discus in a bare tank with a hang on the back filter (like Aqua Clear). Then in 6 - 8 months you can move all the discus and their filter to the planted tank.

Adding two discus at a time is a sure way to stunt some discus and risk bringing new diseases to your tank on a monthly basis (unless you quarantine the new arrivals).

Get all your discus at one time from one supplier. Put them in a bare quarantine tank. Raise them to a good size and add them to your show tank.

[TnMark]

I put mine right in and they are growing and coloring up. However I am not an expert and can't compare their growth in my planted tank to what they would have been in bb. You should listen to others advice if you want to get the best growth out of your Discus.

[RAWesolowski]

JJV,

I've grown young fish in both a bare bottom tank and in a planted aquarium. The growth rate for me was double in the bare bottom aquaium compared to the planted aquarium.

However, I prefer planted aquariums. My solution is to use one aquarium as a grow out tank then transfer the fish to a planted aquarium. The grow out tank doesn't need to be huge if you change the water religiously, 5 or 6 in a 30 gallon with 50% daily water changes and heavy feeding will grow the fish very nicely in 3 or 4 months.

[Shari]

I thought the water changes were the big thing for growing Discus. I have gravel bottom, a few silk plants and quite a bit of driftwood for decor (and the tannins for them) but why would this stunt their growth compared to bb tank? or even slow it down?
Mine haven't all grown as fast as some folks I've noticed though I feed well, but into their second year with me they are blossoming now. Let me know please?

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Shari:
With livestock such as cattle and pigs you can raise them the "natural way" in a pasture/barnyard or you can raise them in a controlled environment for maiximum growth with least work. With a controlled environment you can uniformly bring them to market size in less time.

It's the same with raising discus. Think of the tank as a glass feeding trough. You can feed large amounts of meaty foods and tell at a glance what has or has not been eaten. You can tell at a glance if the feces are abnormal and can easily see to clean every part of the tank. With a controlled environment you can put size on your discus faster and more uniformly.

This is not for everyone. Some people want to create an underwater vignette with discus swimming through it and are less concerned with the size of the discus than the overall look of the tank.

Other people like to have the best of both worlds. They grow out the juveniles in a bare tank and add them to the show tank as adults.

[RAWesolowski]

Nice description, Carol. Very apropos...

[chewy7]

Hey Carol,
i am now using a BB tank. only have a few driftwood pieces, going to put gravel and plants in when the discus are fully grown. Thanks for the advice, You where right when you said that it must be a vitamin deficiency of some sort with the discus. but do you know what vitamins i need to give them?


thanks
shane

[ak]

jjv,

I started with 72 gal planted tank and discus about 7 months ago. Here is what I think...

Basically, you have two tasks on hand. First- making sure that the planted tank thrives. Second- making sure that the discus thrive (not just survive). Now if you have both in the same tank, you just made matters more difficult (especially if you are new to both).

I have just recently been able to get my planted tank somewhat stable (i.e. with minimum algae, good water parameters, healthy plants that survive at discus temperatures). Imagine having a bunch of discus in the same tank while you are trying to get a hang of growing plants, adding CO2, fertilizer etc. Fortunately, none of my discus died, but I'm sure they did not appreciate it either.

I would hence recommend you to grow out the discus in a separate bb tank (about 30 - 55 gal). While the discus are growing, you can work on making your planted tank stable. Once you get a hang of the planted tank and the discus are grown, you can start adding them to the planted tank.

Also, discus are a lot happier in groups of atleast 5-6. Especially if one of them is a bully.

Hope that helps. BTW, I think arpanlib is in Delhi. Did you get in touch with him?

Most importantly, SimplyDiscus is a lifesaver!

Atul

[Carol_Roberts]

HI Shane:
Live foods such as blackworms and red wigglers are packed with nutrition. I don't add vitamins. In addition to live foods, I feed good quality flakes and bits (Ocean Nutrition Flakes, Tetra bits, Azoo bits)

[Dogs]

Hi Guys

I've also got a planted 72 gallon show tank with adult discus(2), tetras(10), loaches(2) and rainbow sharks(2) and was wondering if I can put in any more discus in or will I put to much strain on the bio-load of the tank?

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Recommended Reading before you embark on your planted aquarium:


Ecology of the Planted Aquarium: A Practical Manual and Scientific Treatise for the Home Aquarist by Diana Walstead (2003)

The Optimum Aquarium by Kasper Horst and Horst E. Kipper. (1985..out of print)

Aquarium Plants by Christel Kasselmann (1999)

The Optimum Aquarium is a bit of a self promotion for Dupla products, however it is still a must read for all planted aquarium enthusiast.
The 3rd book is a bit pricey and perhaps too exhaustive.

I would also strongly urge you to join the Aquatic Plants Digest:
see http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Also hit the Krib. http://www.thekrib.com

[ak]

More discus in the planted tank means obviously you have to feed more. The more you feed, the more algae you have in the tank. This is what I have experienced. Maybe someone can explain why this happens.???

[angel12]

look at a planted tank as a mini eco system everything has its place and everything interacts with each other..

Food and plant decaying plant debris produce Phosphate also with the extra bioload of feeding more the fish are producing more ammonia for the Filter to convert into Nitrate ..

Put these together and if you dont maintain proper water change routine you are giving algae a perfect opportunity to survive ...( there are other elements that also come into consideration) algae tends to grow when the balance of things inside the Tank has changed it has adapted to only need the slightest opportunity to grow..

Good thing is you can combat it either by obtaining bristlenose plecs or octicinclus Siamese algae eaters(some forms of algae ie black beard algae are hard to get rid of and most algae eating fish will not touch this type ) or look into removing the amount of phospate/nitrate by more water changes/Or adding resins to remove these from the water ... if this doesnt work then it is more of an underlying issue that will need further investigation ...

This is my own opinion and is not Gospel no doubt others will be able to adivse more

HTH

;D

[Willie]

jjv;

I think you're headed toward a disaster, an expensive one at that.

I've raised and bred a lot of discus in my life and I CANNOT raise young discus in a planted tank. You've never raised discus before so I think your chances of successful are going to be no better than mine. Discus are rare and expensive because they have stringent requirements. They become much easier in bb tanks, because that's part of the requirement.

If you want to discus in a planted tank, get some large ones -- adults that won't grow any more. Otherwise, you're going to be disappointed.

You cannot introduce a few discus at a time -- its another disaster. Discus must be quarantined. If you buy discus from me, I recommend you quarantine for at least six weeks. If I buy discus from my neighbor, and I visit him regularly, I still quarantine for six weeks. Buy your discus at the same time and quarantine everybody, or get lots of quarantine tanks.

These comments may make no sense to someone new to discus. For the experienced discus breeder, these are inviolable rules.

Respectfully, Willie

[Debo]

From a person who started with baby discus in a planted tank. Listen to the experts. Willie, Carrol, all of them really know what they are talking about! If I would have listened to what they said, I believe that my beatiful discus would be much larger and I would of had less headaches. As Willie said if you want a planted tank get adult discus. I am seriously concidering tearing down the planted. I much rather enjoy the discus. Just my oppion.
DebO ;D

[Luca]

Hmm i have a bit of a problem.. i'm going to buy 3 discus very soon and my aim is to put them in a planted tank. i wasn't going to worry about quarantining but i see the experts suggest it is imperative. the problem is the only tank i could use for this is a 2-foot tank, i don't have anything larger available at the moment. Is this ok for 4 weeks? Or will this small size (15gal for the 3 adults) cause too much stress on them?

These are the only discus i will be buying, why can't i just put them straight into my 4-foot planted?

thanks for feedback,
Luca.

[95jeepxj]

In my opinion you can do anything you want to do. You need to realize that most people here are discus enthusiasts that would like to have their discus breed and grow as big as possible. If you are not too concerned about max size or breeding or the "optimum shape" then I say go for it. Just because a discus isn't perfect does not mean it's not enjoyable. I'm not saying that you should go buy top notch discus for big bucks (unless you have the big bucks to lay down). As far as quarrentine goes, it's a good idea for any fish you buy if they are going into an established aquarium. If you do not have anything in the tank yet then I wouldn't worry about it. Just keep an eye on them and make sure they are all eating.

jake

[Debo]

Iwas just think :D that maybe if they had to be treated that a bare bottom as aQT tank would be easier to medicate for the first 6 weeks. Then place adults in planted tank.
DebO

[Harriett]

For the most part I second Jake's post enthusiastically: thank goodness for all the gurus on board here, but remember you can do what you want! Choose your agenda and let that be what directs your approach. All other care/food being equal, if size is the goal, bb is probably the fastest way to go, with daily water changes, etc etc.
If you are thrilled by the prospect of a planted biotope, just go for it! I wrung my hands endlessly when I started my 180g planted tank on which way to go, how long to fatten 'em up in a bb QT, would they/could they really grow in a planted tank that wasn't getting daily water changes? You guys know the list...
In the end, here is what I came to and it has worked out for my situation:
I QT all babies for 6-8 weeks in a 25g bb tank. Even fish from the best breeders will sometimes develop problems that need to be dealt with--whether it's from travel stress or acclimation or just a hidden pop up--it happens. Even if it's the 1st load of discus for your planted tank, I say go with a bb QT tank for these reasons: it is more cost effective for treatment, WAY easier to monitor fish and poop, in a QT tank than in a larger tank full of driftwood and plants you also care about and may have spent a bunch of money on that may react poorly to the temps, the meds or the salt treatment you do. Fish not feeling well hide.
Once they are clear from QT and 3" or larger, I throw them in the big tank.
My oldest fish are about a year old now (I have 2 younger batches that came in groups after). Raised in the planted tank with 70% weekly water changes (and 3 x week prefilter pad cleanings from the w/d filter), the biggest guys are about 6 1/2 inches and still growing--colors are vibrant, fish are real happy I think--very tame, swim around my hand when I feed them, allow themselves to be pet, etc.
I suppose they would be bigger if they were in a bb tank but again, it's a matter of priority. I don't care that much whether they are 6 or 7 or 8 inches--I just want gorgeous fish in a beautiful tank...sorry this got so long, hope it helps.
One other relevent note: I conditioned my guys right away in QT and the big tank to eat EVERYTHING from a cone feeder with the holes enlarged. The food stays in one location, they line up under it to beg and then eat,(I have 2 in there now so there's no bullying for food) I can easily see if they are all getting their share or should put in a bit more, what ever left overs go to the gravel below where the cories and SAEs, etc are waiting for their share. I also have a good shot at monitoring what their poop looks like since they eat they poop they eat they poop, the life of a discus! Because the feeder is in the front of the tank, they tend to hang out there a lot of the time and are very relaxed in the middle of a sometimes busy living room.
Best regards,
Harriett

[korbi_doc]

:bounce2: :bounce2: You've had lotsa good advice here from those who have "been there". As far as QT goes, that 6 weeks is IMO an imperative before going into your beautiful planted tank. One does not want to have to treat that tank with meds if these new guys get sick! You should also plan to worm your new fish before they go "in".
I've seen some very large & deep plastic storage boxes with covers in lotsa stores. These are easily converted for QT tanks or emergencies, I would think. I'm planning on setting up a large plastic horse watering trough if my redSS continue to insist on breeding. lol, good luck, Dottie ;D

[FrankLuvsDiscus]

:) Luca, don't put the 3 in a 15g juvenile or adults they'll hate it and probably stress and die....... honest truth IMO. I would never place even 1 discus in a 10g or 15g unless I was using it as a Hospital tank to help cure them of an illness and they'd be in there briefly ....

If you buy adult discus ,,,, go ahead and put them in your planted tank right away IMO , even so they may "catch" or bring a illness into the tank that you'll have to deal with.

Discus demand the best at all times GIve the KING what he wants and he'll make you happy too.

Franko

Good luck ;D

[Luca]

Interesting...thanks for the feedback guys, especially Franko nice succint reply there :) I've heard people on here suggesting 10gal to one adult discus though? I guess it's different when the physical size of the tank is larger though.

I think i'll have to find a 3-foot med/QT tank at some stage then *sigh*

I know i should ask in the 'med' section but what is the general medicines you should have on the shelf? potassium permangante along with some aqua-salts?? advice appreciated

Luca.

[jamesmcsyd]

As a rule, I keep

Formalin
metronidazole
praziquantel
trichlorofon
salt
epsom salt

There are a range of other meds, like fenbendazole or PP, but the above lot should cure any of the common ailments you are likely to encounter.

The biggest advice I can give to newcomers (only from my experience) is don't feed ANYTHING that could remotely give intestinal protozoa. Ie dodgy live or frozen food. I go for Hikari only.

PS 3 discus in a tank don't usually do so well. Try 4 or more.

James

[ChloroPhil]

Here's another good reason to QT your fish before adding them to your new planted tank...........








Ready?









Plants need about a month to settle in before they really start growing! That's not to say that you can't have fish in a planted tank for the whole first month. Just that the plants usually aren't established well enough to grow at a rate which will utilize all the nutrients put into their house by the fish. IE: You'll get one hell of an algae problem. On top of that you don't need the fish to be putting off variable amounts of nutrients every day while you fine tune everything....

Furthermore, for the first month or so most planted tanks are fairly unstable while you try to figure out the perfect amounts of supplimentation, CO2, and the like. Your fish would be better off staying out of that environment regardless of their age and size. You'll be doing yourself, your plants, and your fish a HUGE favor by holding them in a separate aquarium for the first 6-8 weeks.