Quality and pictures...

[brewmaster15]

Hi everyone,
The other night I had a friend over. He was going to take some of my fry, and as I searched through a tank of about 40 1 1/2 inch fry for the best for him to take, I realized that many of these fry were not the best. The were OK.But not the best. I could have easily sold them at a LFS though or to a novice. I picked the best and gave them to my friend... I then culled the remaining 25 fry :- :'(....part of me wanted to wait and see if they improved with age, but recent events made me decide otherwise. It was not easy to do. :'(

Its hard to take it when you post fish pics and they are not ooued and ah'd as beautiful. Basic facts though... not all are. I apologize in advance if someone is offended by this.

Everyone complained when this board didn't allow negatives about a fish pic posted. Some breeders felt so strongly about this that they boycotted this board over it. ... we listened ...we changed the policy. Recently the policy was put to the test, and was not well received by everyone,
but I believe the policy will help everyone and this hobby in the long run.

We have tried it both ways here. I have bitten my tongue too many times when I have seen someone new to this Hobby get "taken" by being sold a fish That doesn't belong in a LFS. I will not do so any more. Professionals especially should know better. Hobbyist breeders should strive for the best as well. Its not easy but it needs to be done, by all of us.

Sellers beware.. Your reputations will not protect You anymore. A hobbyist should not have to find out the hard way that a fish they were sold was not what they were led to believe it was.

If I see fish posted that are from a breeder/seller/hobbyist. I will give my honest opinion of those fish, and try to explain why I have that opinion. I encourage everyone to do the same so that we can all learn. I will try to be as civil as possible about it, and hope everyone else will.(I will remind others if they forget to be civil).

Historically Discus have been thought of as the King of the aquarium fish. Lets show these fish the respect they deserve, and strive for excellence. We can lead the drive for quality, or we can let others do it. This site tries to offer the most comprehensive advice on the care of and health of Discus in the world. It should do the same when it comes to what is considered quality.

At $25-$50 a person should be getting a good quality young fish.

This board will not tolerate malicious attacks or defamation of character , but It will allow an honest opinion about a fish that is posted.
I encourage everyone to re-read this sites mission statement...
http://www.simplydiscus.com/mission_statement.html

and photo policy...
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=6094


I'd like to hear we everyones view of this policy, please post it here, or IM with it.

Thanks,
al

[Jeff]

I agree with the policy. Everyone has opinions and should be allowed to express them as long as it is about the fish and doesn't attack the seller or buyer. It should not get personal. I know some folks like my fish and others don't. That is ok with me as long as I'm not getting insulted by someone. I think it will benefit everyone by having honest opinions. :)

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Am happy to see this!


Let the learning begin ;D ;D ;D


Also Am no god I have sold discus to others that were not so great. I have sold people discus with missing body parts.
I just never did it to make a $ it was clearly a case that was overlooked at the time. most of my ciliants that this happened to were fully refunded. mistakes do happen all the time thats why no one is perfect. we learn more and more everyday

Cary Gld!

[RandalB]

Good Move Brew,
As long as it stays Civil and does not become a tool for people with grudges, it will be a great learning tool. I for one will be watching closely and I know the other mods/Admins will be too.

RandalB

[Tristanyyz]

Well Brew, we dont know eachother, and i wasnt going to mention it, but seeing as how you brought it up...i thought the plumbage on your Pegadiscus was far from superior. And the horn placement,...dont get me started... >:(

[ronrca]

CARY! What ARE you DOING?

I have sold people with missing body parts.


Shame, shame! :-X

LOL! ;D

[April]

I think it sounds good. myabe it will make breeders or hobbyists think twice before selling inferior or lower grade fish to a newbie so they can learn on them. i know ive personally got many fish i in the end didnt think were what i wanted. its not just the cost of raising them i keep hearing about...which it does take alot of food and hydro and water. but its the time factor. you wait for a year for them to become breeding age..and if they dont turn out the way you like...then your starting back at square one rebuying new fish to replace the ones you had hopes for.
some just want a tank of discus to look at.and think we all start thinking that . but alot of us move on to trying to get a spawn or adding more tanks and investing more time etc.
ive been reading the one post on the quality of a pic..and feel it was for the most part civil and it took courage for some to post their feelings and knowledge. . but you can learn from it.
i know i have already had people locally ask me for my lower quality cheaper discus. but...then what? they decide to join simply and love their new fish and then post pics? then everyone says...look what April dumped on this poor guy. if the pics are judged..and commented on it will make some think twice before they sell lower grade to people hopefully.

[rickk]

I agree with the policy.

Being brand new to discus and this forum not only would I like to be in contact with other fellow discus keepers I would also like to learn as much as possiable.

All constructive comments on anything I have posted would be welcome by me. My very limited knowledge on discus has already increased 10 fold due to this forum.

Well done and thank you.

Rick

[brewmaster15]

Hi everyone,
Over the last year we have tried to do a lot things here, and sometimes we failed... This one is probably going to be the hardest idea to make work.

Please help by being constructive, civil, and focus only on the fish not the seller, and not the hobbyist. look at the body shape, eyes, fins, etc.

Somethings to consider before really tearing a fish apart... The experience level of the hobbyist. maybe you might want to try an IM first and see if they want an opinion. Very rarely have I seen someone here that did not want one...more commonly I have heard a desire to learn what the fish really should look like. People value their money and discus ain't cheap.

Try not to use the word "cull " in a derrogatory fashion, just say the flaws of the fish. Thats all thats necessary.

Other things to consider.. ask the person how long they had the fish, and ask the seller how old the fish are.

I give you all my word that I will do my best to be keep this fair, and keep it civil. This is just something that I feel we need to do. Its something I personally need to do. I'm starting to have a hard time sleeping at night after some of the things I have seen, and not addressed.

-al

[fcdiscus]

Great Al! IMO that is one of the things this board and others are meant to do! Now we just need all sellers to post there stuff! Frank 8)

[Jason]

I'm a firm beleiver in you get what you pay for, and although I feel that a "reputable" breeder should have some lower-priced stock of old strains and stuff that don't really sell anymore, they should still be waaaaaay better than what you'd get at an lfs, and just kept around for newbies to learn on.

[wildthing]

A bold move Brew, I hope people will be able to give & handle fish criticisms without getting personal
:)
Problems often arise when folks jump in & invest lots of $$$s in :-*fashion-fish 8) before they have an educated eye for a good purchase, & then they have such a financial commitment to their position that it is hard to accept criticism of the animal. No-one likes to hear that they got the wrong end of a bad deal.

[brewmaster15]

I hope people will be able to give & handle fish criticisms without getting personal
you and me both! :)
-al

Really good move!! One of the main reasons were all here is to learn....and while its all good and fine to heap praise and pat someone on the back...It shouldnt be done at the expense of LEARNING.

And I agree with the others.....the key to making this a success is to be CIVIL and to use some common sense when posting.

Tony

[wildthing]

Perhaps people would like to add what they paid for a fish when they put it up for review, Often a fish is a good fish for $50 but a terrible fish for $200, tho I understand any reluctance to say how big a financial blunder may have been.
:)

David
http://wilddiscus.com

[brewmaster15]

Thats a good suggestion DW. You should get what you pay for. :)


I also think its real important to understand how long a fish has been under a persons care, and what That care regime is.
-al

[TnMark]

I think this is a great change. I just hope that people like me who are not knowledgeable will refrain from making comments and leave it to the experts so that we can learn.

[wildthing]

I also think its real important to understand how long a fish has been under a persons care, and what That care regime is.
-al


Yes, I have seen some real nasty fish turn into not-so bad ones with some of the extended good care they get. I have seen others start with good potential only to be turned into not-so-good fish by lack of proper care.
David

[SLY]

good idea..we should have this long ago. ;)

[brewmaster15]

we did! But it was abused, misused, misdirected, and a PITA :) Hopefully this time will be different :) :) :)

-al

[henryD]

I like this idea alot. It helps tell others what to look for when your buying a fish. I think it also helps the seller. For instant you have someone who knows specifcally what they are looking for then there is less room for confusion.

In the beginning when I bought a fish I did not know what to ask or look for. Luckily I bought from a couple of people who were honest and fair.

But now I know to ask about size, eye color and size, peppering or not, ect. etc.

So now there is less grey area. The seller would know very detailed as to what I want and whether they had it or not.

I have bought fish that were not grade A. I wanted something to practice and start out on. When I post a pic of those particular fish I will tell everyone that it was sold with the understanding that they were not going to turn out to be the best. By doing this I hope to protect the reputation of the breeder and also keep cheaper discus around.

If breeder were afraid of ruining their reputation and cull heavily and only sold the best. Then of course they are going to ask for more money for their investment. If this was going to happen it will only hurt the hobby.

I don't know if I would have gotten into the hobby if someone told me that I would need to buy 4-6 fish to make them happy and I had to pay $50 for a fish that is hard to keep. That would be a $300 investment in something that could die very easliy.

So when you post a picture think carefully of what your doing. Try to give as much detail as possible.


Al,

I would have gladly taken the other fish from you.... ;D ;) ;)

[brewmaster15]

Henry,
not a chance. I have a pr of wild green X MR spawning as I write this.... I'll save some "GOOD" ones for you! ;) :) if they treat me well for all the care the received ;D

-al

[lauris]

I'm not sure if this is relevant here, but I am wondering if there are published standards for discus. I have fairly long term experience in spending too much money on tropical fish and have recently begun focusing my expenditures on discus. I have lurked around this forum sporadically and have followed with some confusion and/or bemusement some of the back and forth regarding quality. What I am wondering is whether there are published show standards for discus as to conformation and/or color. I have some background in breeding and showing dogs and horses and in those arenas, there are fairly well-defined standards against which individual animals are judged. Of course opinion and preferences come into play, but certain basics are immutable. I know discus are shown here and abroad; how are they judged? Is there a different asian, european or american standard? Is there a place herein, or elsewhere, where there are pics of the national and/or international champion discus? Perhaps my basic query is whether discus are judged on a subjective or objective basis.

thanks

p.s. obviously a slow day in the office

[Carol_Roberts]

No national standard like for dogs because there is no governing board like the AKC to set the standards, register the fish and certify the judges. . . .

[Denny]

I agree Lauris and have thought the same thing for a while now.

Is there any reason we cannot have a uniform standard in Discus?

[Fisheyes]

i would like to throw my two cents in here as well .

I can go to the lfs and buy what is available but when I phone long distance ,pay a 100.00 dollars for shipping
I expect the best .
My first response two the breeder would be is ---If these were your discus which one would you pick for
yourself--- period.
You send me inferior fish and I will hound you to no end.

Fissssssheeeyes :crazy:

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dj,
Its a good question, and The probelm as I see it is the lack of international consensus. Who would decide? To organize such a committee and the guidelines would be very difficult.

Perhaps it could be done on a smaller scale within countries and continents first? Then on a broader level. I like to think that all the small regional meetings that boards like this one and Daah seem to inspire are the beginnings of such consensus.

-al

[Denny]

I really don't see that much of a difference in what Cary, yourself, Dave Webber or a whole list of other people on these forums call a good fish or a bad fish. It seems to me that there is a tremendous amount of time and energy spent to try to educate all of the new and experience on what a quality discus is. If you go to any forum except maybe Majestic Forums, there is enough consensus imho to put something together.

I think that there should be a council that is put together.A suggestion would be to take an Admin from each of the 3 forums that are used in this country. In other words Al,Chad and Joe. plus a few top breeders like Cary and a few others. Then just get together do it. There are standards for darn near everything like dogs, cats, goats... so it is not like there is not a way it can be done. Someone just needs to step up and lay the chips on the table. If it isn't perfect from day one, no big deal as the standards can always be improved and modified as you go.

As far as I am concerned, until someone does take the ball and run with it, there will never be an end to all of this.

[Denny]

Oh yeah,

I just saw the international thing. Al,even though this is a world wide forum, the problems that are arising are based in the north american continent from what I have seen, and I see no reason why you cannot set your own standards to deal with the issues you are facing ;)

[dred]

Al,

How about working up a Simply standard for our Discus. Simply itself has more than enough brand equity to lead on this front - kudos where they are deserved.

That suggested, I do believe that any standard presented should directly consider the health and temperment of fish being reviewed. I've seen breeders ignore obvious mental and physical issues when breeding for arbitrarily determined conformation. So any conformation specifications should be descriptive of a healthy discus.

milton

[TnMark]

Doesn't the ACA award prizes for best in show? Are the individual judges just using their own experience or does the ACA have some type of standard they are using?

[thebaglady]

Standards in judging are somewhat subjective...just help out at a few shows and you'll see, especially between the best fish in each class for BOS fish or Reserve BOS, or all the first place cichlids for BOS cichlid---many times, it's VERY difficult to choose.

Judges who are qualified in each class look at size, color, finnage, deportment, sometimes ease of maintaining the fish. Also lack of things...a great looking fish should be checked to make sure it has both eyes. :o
But each class is usually judged by two and scores are averaged to find a winner. Judges are influenced by experience and when in doubt, show chairs put out ie: Baensch Atlas' so they can check on size or whatever.

If you say there's a "standard" for discus, I think you have to say Is it a wild Cupirera and true to what a wild Cupirera should be? Leopard--What's right for that. Crisper pattern the better? What about size---are some strains genetically pre-disposed to being bigger? It's not so staight forward to just say...Well these are discus standards....large, round body, eye placed here, no "Roman nose", having errect fins etc... because even with in discus, there are variations in "beauty" Conforming to those basic qualities has to be overlapped by conforming to whats "right" for that particular type of discus----I think (remember, I'm still kinda a newbie to discus, but not to fish)

I have enjoyed seeing good and bad because i'm learning but I too agree with Al's vision of what should be posted and honest responses to what is seen. And i also agree, it will be hard to implement. Like Dj said, if all of the administrators, importers and breeders were all together, there would be some consensus though---GOOD LUCK to them!!

Jen K. :)

[Smokey]

How about starting at the other end !

WHAT A DISCUS SHOULD NOT BE LIKE.
poor finage
defromed bone structure
pectorial finage lenght
eys
nose
markings
colour
symentary
etc.
???

Smokey