Added Comment To My Intorduction

[Sara]

Forgot something, Hubby and I also have no idea the names of the Discus, we just know the colors so far and really need to learn the names of them. We know we want red, blue and orange ones but that's all we know as of yet.

Isn't that awful hehehehe.

UUMMMMMM I'll take a couple blue ones, a few red ones and maybe throw in a couple of them orange ones. ;D

Oh well, we will learn. :)

[ronrca]

LOL! Give it time and then when you think you have learned some names, give it more time to learn more!

Basiclly, there are the fundamental strains, then they branch off and get crossed with each other getting names similiar to the paint section in a hardware store. Yep! Then it gets confusing from there! LOL!

No worry though! Would you like domestics or wilds? LOL! ;)

[Sara]

OH thanks !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Totally confuse me now :)

Well this is how it is, As you are well informaed there really isn't allot of money to be made in breeding any fish as a hobby and we had 3 tanks of baby angels that were getting to the point of almost adults so we went to a very decent mom and pop place that bought a number of our baby angels from us and worked out a deal.

He as of right now gets his discus from 1 local breeder and apparently she is really good.

As you know angels sell from any LFS anywhere from $2.00 to $5.00 for juvies and the bigger the angels the more they charge.

We gave him 87 baby angels and 3 adult female angels for 7 discus to be picked up late August.

To some it sounds like he took us which may be so but all of the years we sold baby angels the highest price we ever got for the babies was $1.00 per fish. What the store sells them for is a different story.

So I presume the discus would be domestic?

[ronrca]

LOL! I was just bugging you! You will quickly find out that there are lots and lots of strains then to make it worse, you can get wild discus also. Its a lot of fun imo!

It may sound overwhelming at first but soon enough you will be quite comfortable. About buying discus, try to find a local breeder and go for a visit. If you take some time and browse thru the breeder section, you may come across someone that is quite close.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=12

How big are your tanks btw? You are correct! Its tough to breed for money. Most of us do it for the fun, the passion, the hobby, etc so even if we are breaking even it does matter.

Btw, you may know this already, its addicting!

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi and welcome to SimplyDiscus :wave:

If you are getting discus from your local fish store who purchases from a local breeder you will be getting domestics.

The orange ones (and maybe solid red ones) will be pigeonblood. Pick the roundest ones with the least pepper. Look for red eyes.

The blue ones could be turquoise (lots of striations/lines on body), cobalts (few striations) or blue diamonds (solid blue, no vertical stress bars, no striations. Again look for round bodies and clear red eyes.

The red ones may be a red turquoise or leopard (striations or spots) or perhaps a Red marlboro (pigeon based)

Names and genetics are not set for discus like they are in Angels. The same fish can have two different names.

Look through the photo section and try to develope your "eye" for the differnt types and correct shape of discus.

AS always pick healthy, bright eyed, fish that you have seen eat.

[Sara]

You people are so nice here :)

I have a 55 gallon waiting for my discus as we speak, it had baby angels in it before but they are now at the pop place and he wants more, they are angel Koi babies.

I basically did a VERY large water change on the tank, changed the filter medium and severly washed out the sponge filters for this tank and re added declor water, have 8 catfish in there right now with 8 guppies to keep it cycled well. I also washed down the insides of the glass and filters. The angel babies were healthy and striving in there. No sickness or disease at all.

I also have a totally cleaned out 30 gallon waiting for them for their quartenine period.

Does this sound OK ?

[ronrca]

Pretty good so far! ;)

Do you age your water? can you do at least 50% water changes once or twice a day? Is the tank a bare bottom?

Imo, I would actually remove the other fish and use ammonia to keep your tank cycled (at least 4 weeks before you get the discus). This way you can build a good size bacteria colony to handle the increased bio load when you get the discus.

[dred]

Sara,

First, I think you got a great deal from your LFS. At retail figure that a juvenile discus regularly sells for 3 to 4 times the price of an adult Angel.

I want to make one serious suggestion for you. I'm hoping that pop at the LFS can be convinced to introduce you to his local discus breeder. You've got till August to work on him and some Koi Angels to dangle from your stick.

I say this because I've yet to see a single "good" quality domestically bred discus for sale at an LFS here in Houston. Several stores have pretty large selections, but invariable, the juveniles are very poorly shaped. And, by the time they get some age on them, their growth is also stunted.

I don't want to suggest that your breeder is knowingly delivering poor quality stock to the LFSs, but I will warn you this practice is more of a rule than an exception. You can get well developed Wilds at several local LFS, but you still won't find the most desireable color morphs of the wilds. However, do observe the shape of the Wilds when you get the chance - they are invariable better shaped than the domestic adults that sometimes come available.

Regarding their new home. Why quarantine in the 30 when the 55 is empty and waiting - seems you are just gonna add a stressful move at the end of quarantine. Disregard this idea if the 55 is on a centralized system. But, at my house I currently have a 65 in quarantine, a 55 in quarantine, and a 29 in quarantine - with the exception of the trio in the 29, nobody is moving till they pair up or outgrow their homes. Just requires a little discipline when moving between tanks.

Finally, you will find that there is still plenty of pioneering opportunity in the area of Discus breeding. Unlike the Angel world, there isn't a chromosomal roadmap that'll get you the fish you want. I've yet to hear discussions regarding heterozygous v. homozygous traiits, etc. Rather, in the Discus world, new (to humans) genetic stuff is still cropping up, and breeders are producing unique fish and strains with much greater frequency than is possible in the Angel community.

Also, given that we haven't mapped the genes, you will also find that any single name might be assigned to obviously different fish. Examples: Gold discus have been produced from two drastically drifferent breeding strategies. The result is a pedgeon based gold which will pepper, but does not have stress bars, or a "brown" based gold which does not pepper. Red Turks are sold under hundreds of unique names. In the discus world it is as if rather than driving a "Mini", every single combinations of options and colors resulted in a unique model name. You know it's a Mini, but the salesman swears that the Maximinimus on the lot promises better resale.

It's daunting at first glance, but you will actually find the benefit once you've waded in to about waist level. For example Bing Seto's Red Cobalts are a specific strain of Red Turks, but they also have a very distinctive look. So the names provided by the more reputable breeders can help you identify the expected apearance of a fish. The trouble comes in when you get the Cokes of the discus world. For example, look at Marlboro Reds offered by several different breeders - obviously different breeding priorities have resulted in very different fish that share the same name.

good luck,
milton

[Sara]

For my angels I never aged the water, Do daily 30 to 50% water changes on all 14 tanks and set the temperature from the tap identical to the tanks tempetature, Right now the angels are in 82 degree water constantly, water change or not.

Water directly from the tap, treated with declor. I use a python type hose to clean and drain water for water changes but still do the bucket brigade for adding the water back so I can easily keep a constant 82 degree water.

I have no problem doing water changes of any size since I have done them for 3 years daily straight. Even for 84 to 85 degree for the discus.

[ronrca]

See, your off to a great start! ;)

About your water changes, what is the ph straight from your tap water compared to the ph of your tanks?

I would strongly recommend aging the water. At least for a couple hours if you dont have to worry about ph. One reason is to dechlor the water before actually adding it to the tanks. (Sometimes it really makes a difference)

[Sara]

I thought it may be possible to add the discus into their own tank without going the quarentine route since it is open and ready for them.

Like I mentioned it has 8 guppies in there and catfish in order for me to keep up the water changes and keep the tank cycled. The guppies are also my stock as I also breed them and the ones in the 55 right now are like 8 generations from the orginal guppies bought, same as my angels they are healthy and no sickness or disease. The catfish have been through their quarentine period over 8 months ago and are just as cute as ever.

So when I am almost ready to pick up the discus, a few days before hand, I will turn the tank from 82 degrees to 84 or 86 degrees? Is that ok?

And if it is ok how do I go about accimilating the discus to the tank? Do not want to make any mistakes and lose them.

[Sara]

oopppss, forgot to mention. The 55 waiting for the discus is a seperate tank in my dining room/and part of the living room.

I don't have centralized tanks at all, they are spread from one end of the house to the other and each tank has it's own special water change and water re added by me.

The ph at the tap is 7.0 and have tested a million times the tanks ph on all my angel tanks before water change and it also reads 7.0, maybe because I do so many water changes on them?

When I re fill the tanks water I add declor right into the pails as I am filling them, did it this way because it was easier and faster for me to re fill the tanks. I am a stickler for the re fill pail brigade, never used the python to re fill the tanks.

Should I still age the water before adding it back into the tanks?

[ronrca]

Wow! You seem to be blessed then! My tap water straight from the tap is 7.0 but after its been aged and heated for 2 hours, the ph goes up to 7.8!

Well, perhaps you dont need to though Id still recommend it!

You sure work hard at doing wc's! Wow! I did a little water change on my planted 90G once with 5G pails. Never again! Python does it all for me now! I actually use a good pump and pipe for doing water changes. Much easier and quicker! To do a 80G water change only takes me under 1/2hour! ;)

[dred]

A lot of folks here find that there are side benefits to aging/storing your water. It is easy to treat as a single large batch, and it can be heated to your target temperature.

Then with the combination of an appropriately sized pond pump and an appropriate length of hose leading from this pond pump - refills become less labor intensive. In my case the pond pump is piped through dedicated quarter inch irrigation line which is hard wired to the tanks. The pump is on a timer, and the tanks served by the system all have overflow. Oh, and my storage water is renewed by carbon filtered water to remove chlorine. The ammonia remaining after Chlorine is stripped from chloramine is converted by a sponge filter which I use to aerate and circulate the storage tank.

Regarding your existing bioload on the 55 - 8 guppies equals about 1 juvenile discus in bioload - if you can house more disease free fish, it will help prevent an overloading of your filter when you add the Discus. If they are not staying (I'd let them produce live treats for the Discus, but I don't have much love for 'm, so ...) when the Discus arrive, just remove them the day before, do 100% water change, and clean the tank and filter. Refill, set the temp and go.

BTW, good luck waiting till August <LOL>. Your pace reflects my attitude in April when I decided on Discus. I got addicted to the information and consumed it to the point that much of what I have left to learn can really only come from experience. I was shopping for a supplier before the month of April ended. Got my first Discus about 3 weeks ago. Now have 4 tanks dedicated (one is empty, dry hospital designated) with a total of 24 juveniles, so ... I did manage to start an arowana setup simultaneously as I find them nearly as fascinating <laughing at myself>.

hth, milton

[Carol_Roberts]

If your water is pH 7.0 from the tap and 7.0 in the tank the next day prior to a water change you do not need to age it.

I have tanks all over my house too. I'm not as strong as you are so I also have hoses. I fill the 135 in the living room directly from the kitchen faucet.

The seperate tank you have in the dining room is the same as a quarantine tank. . . . except it sounds like it might have gravel and stuff in it ?

To quickly grow out large healthy juvenile discus you want a bare bottom tank. Discus are different than other tropical fish - including angels and need very clean water and tank. It is much easier to wipe down the inside of a bare tank. I don't keep anything in my discus tanks except a heater, pre-filter sponge covered water intake tube and discus. My thermometers stick on the outside ;)

No tankmates, no plants, no substrate, nothing but lots of clean water and meaty food for the juveniles. (you'll be getting juvenile discus)

When I have a new shipment coming in I empty a tank of all inhabitants and bleach/clean the inside thoroughly. I set aside the filters in used tank water and then rinse it in chlorine free water. After everything is clean to my satisfaction I refill the tank, get the filters running and add enough pure household ammonia to register 5ppm on my test kit. I do this about 2 weeks prior to the new discus arrival. Every other day or so I add a bit of ammonia to keep the filters alive.

The day before the fish are due I siphon out 95% of the water and refill with warm, clean water. Most fish parasites and diseases will not survive this and I have a fully cycled filter with a large bacteria bed in a clean, disease free tank waiting for the new arrivals.

[ronrca]

Hmmm! Milton! Your story sounds strangly similar to my story! ;)

[Sara]

OK now you can all call me a liar :)

I got so interested in the ph thing I ran and tested the 55 waiting for discus tank and got a reading of 7.8 and got 7.2 at the tap. The waiting tank has not had a water change since yesterday morning.

So from what I read I take it I have to let the water sit for a few hours before adding it into the tank? Or what is it I need to do for the ph to balance?

I am presuming the ph has a lot of difference now since the major amounts of rain we have been getting in Ohio since March.

[Carol_Roberts]

You can safely do 30% water changes from the tap.

The diference in pH is trapped CO2. You have to aerate/agitate the water for some length of time to off gas the CO2. This happens in the tank from the water spilling into the tank from the filter.

If you want to do water changes larger than 30% at one time you will need a storage barrel.

[Sara]

Thank you for the quick response on the ph thing. I was starting to get real worried about my water again.

I was thinking after I did the ph test......... Do I really want to go through all the worries of trying to keep the discus alive, fighting to get the perfect stable ph etc.

I don't mind even doing 2 - 30% water changes a day, just don't want to get into this RO water until I am ready to try and get them to spawn.

[dred]

Sara,

Yes, no need to worry. You'll soon figure it out but we all have different priorities.

Carol's methods will give you the highest success rate - she really leaves very little to chance, and provides her Discus with a very stable environment.

You definately don't/won't need RO right now, and you may never need it. When you're feeling a little large brained venture into the water works forum. You'll learn what water parameters matter and what can be done about them. But the chase is that as long as you have a reasonable level of carbonate hardness (the key ingredient for water stability) and you keep stuff clean your discus will thrive. If the water contents don't kill Angels and Guppies, it won't hurt the Discus either.

Discus aren't harder to keep than other fish - they are just more labor intensive. Sounds like you're willing to keep them happy, so I predict you'll have very happy discus.

milton

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Sara, it sounds like you have a good plan and start to your discus tank. You can call your supplier of your city's tap water and ask to chat with an engineer or chemist about the water params and how they treat it. They should be able to give you figures such as the Alkalinity(buffering ability for pH), Hardness(for mineral content), pH and other good stuff.......plus you'll learn some stuff and have some fun too! Good luck and welcome to Simply!


Steve

[ronrca]

Providing a stable environment for discus is easier than you think actually! I think I mentioned before that my tap water goes from 7.0 to 7.8 in 2 hours with aeration therefore, I can be doing water changes every 2 hours if I wanted to.

Providing an 'aging system' is quite easy. Carol has some good pics and there are many other types you can use from rubbermaid containers to extra tanks to rain barrels. The capacity required will be dependant on the volume of water you need to change. This will give you the stable parameters and no worries!