1st casualty! Please help!

[neo_44]

:-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :'( :'( :'( :'( :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

I lost 1 discus last night...I need advice before I lose another...

Info: 55g bare bottom 90% (small amount of gravel on one end)
Ammonia 0, Nitrate 0-0.1, Nitrate <5
temp: 86 degrees PH: 7.2
filtration: hydro III internal sponge, aquaclear 300 with 2 sponges
Food: Nutrafin flakes most of the time, freeze dried tubifex worms, frozen shrimp cut up (rinsed in a cup of tank water 1st)
Originally five 1.5" discus.
W/C's - averaging 10-20% a day ( i use aquaplus water conditioner on tap water b4 adding the water to the tank)
*I always siphon or net out the remaining food about 15min after feedings

The story:
On sunday, after a 20% w/c, 1 discus began crashing around and spinning in circles. This was ongoing with this one fish. The other 4 seemed 100% ok. The one fish finally settled down after about an hour, but every once in awhile he'd get spooked and crash around again. It was midnight when he finally died. He looked really dark except his face. (This one fish was sold to me and he had a tail deformity, almost like his body was permanently curved. He seemed ok for the 2 weeks I've had him. I did notice he never really would join the other 4. He was almost always on his own except at feeding time).

One thing to note, I had 2 cory catfish, and 1 had died the day before. Not really any symptoms to note. I added salt 1tbsp/10g

I just did a 50% w/c this morning because I noticed my smallest discus is showing signs of stress. He stays in a corner, his color is slightly darker but he's not breathing hard. The other 3 roam around the tank and were not disturbed during my w/c but the smallest was stressed. I noticed him get really nervous and he started swimming around the hydro III really fast about 3 times. Now he's back in his corner. He sometimes joins the others but mostly he's in the corner.

There is one bully in the tank who is almost always dark and he harasses the others at feeding time. The smallest has never eaten much since I've had him because of this.

What should I do?!?!!?!?!?!? 3 are perfectly fine, I'm worried about the 4th.
I've been feeding "clean foods" ie flakes most of the time in an effort to keep the water as clean as possible.
I'll try to post a pic of them if I can.
Thanks in advance...

[brewmaster15]

Hi,
do you know if your water has chloramines in it. I recently read a review of some products and aquaplus water conditioner was listed as one that stated it removed chloramine but only contained sodium thiosulfate ( for chlorine removal).
No idea if this is true...
The review is here...

http://www.thetropicaltank.co.uk/rev-cond.htm

the manufacturers spec...

http://www.hagenpet.com/usa/aquatic/product.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=121&PROD_ID=0107651002010 1

my advise... is question the efficiency of your water treatment.. sounds like something is stressing the fish in the tank, and since its observed after water changes..I'd look to your water.


do your aerate your water in a holding tank?

-al

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Neo:
Thank you for including so much information in your post.

With your Cory dying the day before and your test kit registering nitrIte it does sound like a water problem. Why don't you buy some Prime or other conditioner that treats chloramine too. Keep testing your water for ammonia and nitrITe. Your filter may have been compromised from adding chloramined water to your tank.

I am not a fan of adding straight tap water. I think you should get a holding tank, add your dechlor product, heat and agitate the water prior to water changes.

Let us know what happens . . .

[neo_44]

thanks Al,

Argh! I've been doubling the dose of aquaplus all this time thinking its removing the chloramine and it isn''t! >:( Sheesh, now I can't even trust what's on a packaged label!!

I'll admit, I was warned to aerate my holding tub but I hadn't. (I will now, anything that might help). What does aerating the water do? I had previously used only aged water for my other fish until now.

So should I stop using the aquaplus? I've been doing straight tap water changes instead of aging the water in the holding tub since I started using aquaplus. The reason I went away from the holding tub is that I don't have a practical location for it with an outlet nearby. Can I just move the tub out beside the tank, aerate it for an hour or so before I do a w/c?

In the meantime, what should I do with my little guy? He's kinda pointing his head down a little most of the time and staying in the same spot. He did try to swim a little and I saw him have trouble keeping vertical for a few seconds...

[neo_44]

thanks Carol,

In the time that I spent with the last reply, I've noticed the little guy crashed around for a few seconds just like the one that died last night. :-[
He's darkened up a little more, but he's back in his corner. I hope he pulls through. The other 3 are just begging for food everytime I check the tank, but I don't want to feed until the little guy starts to look better.

Carol, what is Prime? Is that the manufacturer?

I think my bio filter must have been compromised. 2 days ago, I rinsed out both sponges in the aquaclear (in the siphoned tank water) but I thought not rinsing the hydro III would keep my bacteria levels ok. Now with the chloramine issue, I'm worried. I'll test the levels again soon.

[Carol_Roberts]

Prime is the brand name of a dechlor product. Go to your fish store and see what they have. First call your water dept and see if they use chlorine or chloramine for water treatment. What town do you live in? Maybe some else on the board will know about your water and can recommend a dechlor product. No sense in doing extra water changes if the water is causing the problem . . .

[angel12]

if your water does have chloramine in it then kent do a product also called Ammonia Detox it neutralizes Chloramine NOTE this product is effective but sometimes depdending on what test kits you use you will show a Ammonia reading even though there is no ammonia in the tank ..this is clearly stated on the back of the product but I have used this here in the UK where my water is chloramine treated its not nice stuff as you cant get rid of it by natural ageing it is bonded with the chlorine ... with the nitrite reading you have as the above posts from the experts have pointed it could be your water ... Good Luck

:)

[jeep]

Prime is made by Sea-Chem. It should be available at most pet stores but much more cost efficient from an on-line supplier like Big Al's. I use Pond Prime. It's double strength for about just a few cents more.

It does sound like water issues here. I would try to get some storage containers, enough to do a 100% water change every 24 hours in case of an emergency, and change your tank water as much as possible with good/aged water.

Been there! Good luck...

Brian

[neo_44]

thanks angel, jeep and carol,

Just researched the tap water quality, only chlorine is added, no chloramine.

Latest tests show ammonia 0, nitrite 0, nitrate 0. The little discus seemed to be getting better, but now is just laying on his side. I wish he'll pull through.

I will try the aged, aerated water from now on. My question is, why must the water be aerated? And how can Hagen produce Aquaplus which has no meaningful affect on the water quality? How long must I aerate the water?

[Carol_Roberts]

The water from my tap comes out at pH 6.8. It is under pressure and contains disolved carbon dioxide, an acid. When the water goes into an open container the carbon dioxide is slowly released into the atmosphere and the pH begins to rise.

I speed the process up by heating and circulating (agitating, aerating) the water in the container. With my water, GH 11, it takes about 3 hours to stabilize the water which ends at pH 7.8.

If I did a 50% water change from the tap I would immediately drop my tank pH from 7.8 to 7.3. Discus do not like that.

10% water changes will not cause much of a pH swing, but you probably need to change more water than that every day. How big are your discus now in the 55 gallon?

I wonder if your water company has recently been flushing pipes or doing repair work in your area?

[neo_44]

I did a PH test on aged water, tap water and tank water before I bought the discus. All tested roughly 7.2 (but that was just aged for 2 days+, not aerated).

I believe there has been some street work off and on lately.

The four remaining discus are approx 1.5" or so. I originally thought the 1st one that died might have had internal problems because his tail/spine was curved a little but I guess it must have been something in the water changes.

Another thing I noticed but forgot to mention was yesterday, after I added salt to the tank, the smallest discus was trying to eat it!? He just kept pecking in the area where I dropped the salt. Not sure if this is related to my problem, but I did add a little salt after the 1st cory died as well.

[Carol_Roberts]

It's OK for discus to pick at salt. Lots of creatures like salt.

If you only had 2 corys and 5 discus under 2 inches in a 55 gallon tank your 10 - 20% daily water changes were probably adequate.

If your tap and tank are pH 7.2 you don't need to agitate your water.

Sorry, I'm out of ideas . . .

[jeep]

Neo, I had some water quality issues earlier this year. All I can do is guess, but several experts agreed with my problem. If this is a water quality issue then you may consider reconstituting some RO water until it passes.

You really should have nitrates in your water. I don't see how you could get them to zero...

On the other hand... Every once in a while someone reports of a single discus crashing around. No one really knows the exact problem, but if yours had a deformity that could contribute to the problem.

Since the others appear to be ok, the Cory's may have been just a coincidence.

I would just add the salt and keep a close eye on things. If you see a problem develop, then increase salt and temp.

Brian

[neo_44]

Many thanks to Carol, Brian and everyone else who offered me help and advice.

I have no idea what could be wrong. Nitrates do read as zero, or as close to zero as it can get (i'm just trying to match colours on the test kit as best I can).

Since 3 out of 4 are perfectly healthy, it's hard to assume a water quality issue now. I wonder if it's possible to 'spook' a fish to death? I try not to disturb the fish when I do w/c's but they all get a little spooked at the start of the w/c, only to relax by the midway point. Some relax right away, others hide by the sponge filter and slowly come out. 'I don't know, just grasping at straws now...

Here are a few pics I just took, the dark one by himself is the little one in current trouble. I even tried to take pics of him spinning around. The other 3 seem ok, and stick together.

I'll be keeping my fingers crossed....here's hoping he'll recover...

[neo_44]

the little guy spinning

[neo_44]

more...

[neo_44]

last one...

[neo_44]

here he's stopped spinning

[neo_44]

the other 3 still ok...

[jeep]

Neo, If it's real bad you may consider isolatng it in a small tank and add salt at 1 TBS per gallon with the temo around 88-89. No lights and make sure there's a cover on the tank.

If it darts around, it can scare the others into hurting themselves as well...

Good luck

Brian

[April]

ok....heres my theory and only cause ive been through it with my fry. ph swings. when your adding new water to the water thats in the tank.it might be less seeming your not aerating. and its shocking them. or.it can even be gasing off bubbles.
my little fry when i had ph slide. lower in the tank then added even stored water...it was different...and being young they cant take it. they would appear normal..and then theyd see me or doing something in their tank and one would start spiralling just like that .turn dark and drop dead. or look like they had a heart attack then get up and go again.but once again do that till finally it would die. then the next etc etc. not all at once. small fry need the temp and the ph to match carefully.
maybe do two smaller changes twice daily. it might be easier on them.

[dred]

Neo,

First, sorry to learn of your troubles. And, I'm a newbie, so ...

But, after reading this story, I really wonder if the water change correlation wasn't just spurious. Now that we've learned that your chlorine should be properly neutralized, and that your nitrogen cycle is healthy - maybe the water wasn't the trigger. I.e., could it have simply been the stress of your intrusion??

With young Discus, the wisdom suggests that a group of 6 or more will likely fare much better than a smaller group. And, we further expect a runt to develop in any group of juveniles. This happens because Discus naturally develop a pecking order.

So, I wonder if their number (originally just 5) combined with their (currently) large home hasn't amplified the runt issues associated with a developing pecking order. Hopefully, one of the more experienced folks can chime in and determine whether this idea is just phooey. My observations in my own tanks tell me that the juvies use the shoal as a defense against the bully. The shoal seems to help them blend in and makes it much more difficult to single out an individual to harass. Hey, that's what shoaling is about, but we normally think of it as a defense against predators <smile>. Small shoals are much less effective than larger ones.

My 65 is much happier place with 14 juvies than it was with just 5 juvies a couple days ago. With just 5, one was always isolated, and the bully was very effective at guarding all the food. It's only been two days, but since the 9 new tank mates have arrived he's really, really relaxed and lets everybody eat in peace. Problem here regards the effectiveness of adding discus as a remedy for your problem. Those 9 new tank mates were just released from 6 weeks of quarantine. In my case the introduction was very, very careful (took two days) because the stock comes from different sources.

At any rate, good luck. And, FWIW, after reading the whole story, I'm pretty confident that your first casualty was almost certainly instigated by the fishes deformity. The deformity would make it the obvious candidate to be picked on. Unfortunately, I'm worried that the next weakest has been elected to take it's place. Watch them carefully, 'cause if this guess is right, this could continue until a survivor is crowned - the fewer juvenile Discus you have, the greater the pecking order agression.

hth, milton

[neo_44]

April and Dred,

April --- you described the 'symptoms' exactly! Anything little thing I'd do near the tank during a w/c and *wham*, one would go crazy, especially if he was separated from the others...

which leads me to Dred---yeah, it looks like they have a tough time feeling secure during w/c's in the big tank with only the 5 of them (now four). I had tried putting a towel over one side of the tank during the 50% w/c yesterday but it didn't help much, they just kept swimming from end to end, leaving the smallest behind at times.

I'm amazed when I read about people doing w/c's, siphoning after meals etc and no one seems to stress the fish the way mine seem to get stressed. ???

Well, I'll try smaller w/c's for the next while, depending on how stressed they get, maybe 2 a day.

This morning, the smallest discus got his normal colour back, but he wasn't swimming normally. No more darting around, kind of just floating and letting the current move him (sideways, head down, upside down etc) followed by times where he seemed almost normal. I think he's getting better....

[daninthesand]

Hi Neo.

I'm sorry you are having trouble with your discus. I've read this post very carefully and I am pretty confident that what you are seeing is a water quality issue. But not the quality of the water they are in. I think its the water you are adding.

I have seen exactly what you are describing in my own tanks. One fish in particluar getting freaked out by anything I do in or near the tank. I'd even hear the fish darting about, hitting things, when I was in the next room. But it was always the same fish (of a group of about 20). I determined that it was my water change routine. Probably chlorine poisoning. I changed my routine and all was cured.

You have a very low bioload in your tank. 5 small discus should put out very little metabolites and if you are keeping the extra food to a minimum (cleaning uneaten food right away) you should not need massive water changes, with the filtration you are using. 20% a day should be fine.

However, using straight tap water, despite adding dechorination products, is not enough. As April said these young fish are extreemly sensitive. Even small changes in ph can harm these guys. You say that the other 3 fish seem fine...but are they really? In your pix they look a little stressed to me. Just because they are not darting about lke theother guy does not mean they are OK. The one discus might just be a little more sensitive than the rest and so he reacts more violently.

The water out of my tap (Winnipeg) without aging or aeration comes in at pH about 7. So if I simply use dechloro, the pH is still 7. But the water in my aquariums runs close to 8. Partially due to fish metabolites but also due to aging. When Carol desribed her aeration she means that she is DEGASING the water. This takes less time with agitation or airation than if you let it sit undisturbed.

Tap water contains a lot of dissolved CO2. Adding dechloro does not remove the CO2. So if you are adding straight tap water (btw how are you heating the water before it goes to your tank?) the Ph of new water might be quite different than that of the aged aquarium water. This could easily explain what you are seeing.

Does your hydrosponge tend to collect quite a few little gas bubbles after you change the water? If so this is a sign that the new water is not degassed and the co2 collects on the sponge and other fixtures as the water ages.

Increasing your water changes (% or frequency) could be making things worse.

I'll give you an example. I have a 140 gallon storage tank I use to age my water. It takes a good 12 hours for the co2 to be degassed with mild aeration(aggitation). I use all of it every day. The other day I forgot to turn on the water supply to the aging barrel back on. So when I got home from work and i wanted to do a water change on my tanks I had no water! So I decided it would be ok to change a small (20%) percentage in all the tanks rather than not do a water change. (All these tanks are well cycled). I used dechloro and hot and cold tap water mix. Well the fish were pissed off at me big time. Sulking in the corner etc. No casualties but it took several hours before they started to act noramlly. i probably would have been better off NOT doing a water change that day and postponing it to the next day when I had aged water to use instead.

Sorry I got a little long winded here, but I'm pretty sure what your are seeing is largely because of not using degassed water for your water changes.

Maybe don't do anywater changes for today and see what happens. If your filters are cycled you should be able to go at least a couple days or 3 without water changes and the fish will be fine. If you are worried about it you can monitor your nitrates/nitrites/ammonia. (ASSUMING there is not some type of disease process going on, which it does not appear to be to me) BTW Cory catfish do not do well in salt. Might explain the death of the cory. Been there. Done that!

Feel free to IM me if you want more info.

Daniel

[Dave C]

In my opinion the problems are caused by buying very small Discus (1-1.5") with no previous experience with them and buying too small a group of fish for too large a tank. The fish in question came from a 30g tank of about 50-60 fish. Now they find themselves in a group of 5 fish in a 55g tank. That's not good for feeding nor for security of the group. I find it takes a couple of weeks for a small group of fish to get secure after being moved whereas it takes a few days for a large group. Now that there are only 4 left this will compound the problem.

[dred]

Looks like you got more good advice today. Naturally, there's little agreement <smile>.

But, the water issues as explained most recently by sandy dan can be tested. All you need is a pH test kit. Take some water and dechlorinate it as usual. Then immediately test the pH. Then agitate the heck out of the water (use anything - blender, cake mixer, la machine, or you can use aquarium stuff if you have it available). Once it is well ageditated <smile>, test the pH again. If you are type A, you can test the pH at intervals to detect a trend and also to measure how long ageditating your water actually takes using whichever method you choose.


If you get the same reading both times, you can eliminate the water quality issues and focus on non water related stress factors. If your readings differ, you will know for a fact that your water needs aging.

All that said, you can probably improve their environment by aging their change water, but you can definately improve their environment by moving more of their friends in with them <smile>. Sounds like Dave knows where you got these fish, and it sounds like there may be more available (that is one way to get around quarantine).

hth, milton

[Dave C]

I'm in the same city as neo. I just did that test, my water straight out of the tap measures 7.1. My water in my heated, aerated holding tank is 7.25. I have a hard time believing that a 10-20% water change will have that effect even if the pH difference was greater.

[April]

ok agreed Dave.
shouldnt do it. but degassing may.or as dred said chlorine poisoning.
they are quite small..and they may be scared and insecure in a big tank. and have lost alot of ground very quickly.
all you can do is try to keep things stable for now.
but maybe youd be better to get them in a small tank with bare bottom for now so they feel safe and in a small area. and keep their water very stable. see if you can get them growing. turn the heat up higher and maybe add some salt...and see how it goes.

[daninthesand]

neo. if you are in winnipeg, the city is undergoing water supply flushing in different areas for the next while. They came through my area about a 3-4 weeks ago. My water was noticably cloudier, despite aging.

[neo_44]

Thanks everyone bunches for the all the advice I've gotten so far.

My PH readings agreed somewhat with Dave C's. I tried it twice in the last month, both times, PH was 7.2 roughly, straight out of the tap, and aged, and in my tank. My test kit does not go to a 2 decimal place accuracy.

Dan, I am in Winnipeg. My wife thought that she recently noticed a difference in the water quality. I didn't notice any difference but she's usually right about these things... ;)

I'll be the first to admit my mistakes, I know I should have gone with more discus originally. Believe me, if I could I would have gotten ALL the discus in the tank Dave mentioned. And changing water straight from the tap, using aquaplus doesn't seem to be one of the best decisions I've made so far. Ironically, in all my time keeping convicts and africans, I've never resorted to adding additives to my water. I guess I was overzealous thinking if it's made by Hagen and specifically designed for w/c's, it had to be an improvement. I'm still trying to find the most efficient w/c process considering my tank is now in the living room and I don't have the most accessible water source (my holding tank is in the washroom which is not nearly as close to the tank as I wish it was).

Blah, blah,blah, this is getting lengthy...

Anyway....

1. I've got an airstone going in my current (temporary till I find a better one) holding tank with a heater.
2. I thought I read somewhere that partitioning off the tank might help. So I've divided the tank in two and have all the discus using just one side of the tank. They seem to have adjusted to it quickly.
3. In the immediate near future, I'll be doing small w/c's (10% at a time), while I monitor the effects to the discus.

Thanks again, wish me luck, hopefully I haven't missed anything (the last 2 days have been like information overload).

ps. The smallest discus is back to normal colours, and is staying vertical all the time. Just isn't doing much swimming.

[daninthesand]

Sounds like you are on the right track. I hope things continue to go well. Keeping discus has its challenges, but if you stick with it, I'm sure you will enjoy it as much as the rest of us.

We all probably make mistakes along the way, and we just learn from them and move on. Having a forum to refer to sure makes things easier in some ways, but you are right that sometimes its too much information. Too many opinions, all of which are valid and based on any given discus keeper's experience.

Time, trial and error will tell what works for you.

Good luck!

[jeep]

I'm still trying to find the most efficient w/c process considering my tank is now in the living room and I don't have the most accessible water source (my holding tank is in the washroom which is not nearly as close to the tank as I wish it was).


This works for me -- http://www.bigalsonline.com/cgi-bin/view.cgi

It also aggitates the water in good time.

Brian

[neo_44]

Jeep, what was it I was supposed to see...the link only shows a blank page...

Update: I took a new pic of the fish today...the bright guy in the back is the smallest discus. He's looking much better :), but didn't try to eat today. Take a look...

[jeep]

Sorry Neo, it was a pump by Rio Aqua. About $30 and strong enough for me to do all my water changes in about 10 minutes for 4 tanks.

I still haul the waste water out but I'm looking at buying an in-line pump to take care of that one.

Brian

[neo_44]

thanks brian, I'll check it out...
I'm sure I'll have some questions if I eventually get one... ;D

[April]

neo. sounds like their doing alot better. glad to hear.
very well couldve been the flushing. they add something when they flush.which is very hard on discus.
not always easy to decide which way to go. all you can do is ..if big wc arent working.then try small and if your doing small and their not happy.try bigger. trial and error alot of times.
hope they continue to grow now and be happier.
i use a magdrive pond pump on the end of a rubber length of hose measured by the foot from canadian tire. its fast.
or...if you get an 802 powerhead on the end of tubing like a python tube. that also works. if not too far uphill.

[Discus Dreams]

My personal opinion on the matter, in the past I have had the same thing happen to me, or just waking up and finding a fish (usually your favourite) stuck the filter. I missed out on the next water change added some salt and watched the other fish closely. Sometimes I feel we go overboard with water changes especially when we first aquire fish. How would you like it if you went to a new place and they keep changing the location of the bathroom! ;D ;D ;)