Fluoride ? is it in your water?

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
Do any of you have Fluoride added to or found naturally in your water? It is often added by water companies.

Why do I ask?

Turns out Fluoride minimics a growth related hormone TSH, the thyroid-stimulating-hormone.... This is the hormone that in turn control growth...so if its in your water maybe your fish will have nice white teeth and grow a little quicker :).

Fluoride has also been shown to increase another growth hormone made by the pituitary gland ...IGF... Insulin -like growth hormone.

a little more background here... IGF-1 is made by the liver from Growth Hormone.

-al

Just something to think about.

[henryD]

Ok....you know what happens when you post something like this Al.

I think I need to buy some stock in Colgate because i can see their demand and sales jumping 10 folds.


Back to the post....

I think water companies do add flouride in the water. I know when I got a copy of the water report. Flouride was in it. As for adding to growth, what kind of concentration is needed before any benifit is seen? Does the hormone have the same effect in fish as humans? Will it have long term effect?


Could any experiment be done where flouride is increase in one tank compared to another?

Hmmm I do have some frys..... Not sure about any extra tanks though.



PS. Do discus have thyroids or pitiutary glands?

[brewmaster15]

Hi Henry,
I have no idea if the Fluoride will have any effect...theoretically if it mimics a hormone... it will not need a high concentration to have an effect.

I just mentioned it from a "food for thought Point of View"

as for the questions on hormones and fish... Fish respond to hormones exactly like people. Hormones are considered "conserved" across species.. meaning they change little from species to species.

Fish have a pituitary gland.. Its actually what is often ground up and injected into fish that you want to spawn in aquaculture.

Hormones from preganant horses are also used.

there is an inherent problem with fluoride though.. its an antibiotic so its not something you want to increase too much, and its a poision :-\

-al

[wildthing]

I have recently been wondering to myself if fluoride in the water could have an effect on ( decrease) Discus fertility...then you post this...hmmmmm, aren't there some links between growth hormone & infertility in other animals? ...........I cannot otherwise understand why healthy discus on urban water supplies that are without other factors like chlorine ( after de-gassing) or choramine seem to more often than not have low or no hatch compared to those on rural well water etc.
just thinkin' out loud
:)

David

Man and I thought: in the end there IS something good that they add to the water. ???

"there is an inherent problem with fluoride though.. its an antibiotic so its not something you want to increase too much, and its a poision "

Darn you bust my bubble >:(

j/k
Ronald

[jeep]

I believe all water companies un the US started adding flouride to the supply back in the 70's. Seems the tooth cavity rate dropped dramatically when they did that.

Interesting concept about the fish though...

[Sketchy]

...I just looked at my city's water utility report a day or so ago and saw that there was flouride added to our water supply and was wondering about it...

[brewmaster15]

http://www.fluoridealert.org/

:)

I'm Glad I have a well.

[RandalB]

Beat me to it Al....

The next few years will be interesting as the studies on Flouride are completed...

I know a couple of breeders that swear they have congenital defects on fry from Flouride..

RandalB

[wildthing]

Al....great link...it mentions neurotoxic effects in rats......could fluoride also be the cause of the famous unknown 'whirling & dashing' problem that sometimes affects one fish in a tank but no others?

" things that make you go HMMM"

::)

[jeep]

Does RO filter out flouride?

[RandalB]

RO units remove 93-97% of Sodium Flouride in tap water depending on:

1) Membrane Brand
2) Water Pressure
3) Water Temperature
4) pH of Feed water
5) TDS of Feed water

RO/DI will remove it completely.

HTH,
RandalB

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Here's another wrench to throw in the mix. Flouride is THE MOST POWERFUL oxidizer and second is Ozone.


Steve

[Ryan]

From kindergarten through 4th grade or so, they made us "swish-n-spit" this stuff for 45 seconds. They used to bring it in on trays in little cups after lunch and all the kids in the cafeteria would groan and whine. I hated it.

I know they add it to the city water in Pierson, the town just south of me. Sometimes it's so strong there you can taste it in the water. I remember going to a water fountain once and it was like drinking diluted fluoride -- yuck.

I'm glad I have a well, too. That website has some pretty alarming facts on it.

Ryan

[Dennis_Hardenburge]

I have no way of proving it, but I have always thought the fluoride in my water is why I get deformed fry if I use tap water at to young of an age.
Dennis

[April]

hmmmmmm......ok thats it.im moving to an island with a well. just for the fish.......it would be excruciatingingly painful for me to live there........ ::) :P ;D
interesting. no idea if vancouver has flouride added. now i will have to find out. wheres glenn...our water man?

[Ardan]

We have flouride added.

We still have dental bills ;D

[DISCUSDADDYSLC]

I went and bought a filter from Al at rocky mountain that filters all the bad stuff out of tap water. The by product of aluminium they can not seem to get rid of and are stuck with. And then some guy taste it and says lets find a way to make Humans eat it and tell them they benefit from it????? What next Pepsi with all the benefit of oil sludge ;)

[Mr. Limpet]

Ok, I'll take the other view. Flouride has been in our water for as long as I have been around. It is added to help prevent dental decay, and it has made a difference, although I will have to do some research to back that up. That is why almost all toothpastes have it in it.
I have also bred Discus that have had 200+ fry as the norm with that same water and very few defects.
I just took a quick lookfor our last water bill, because it has the water quality info in it. I will have to look it up later. i do know that too much is bad, that's why the tell you not to swallow your toothpaste. More later, i need to go change some water. Paul.

[Mr. Limpet]

Ok, after a little web work,

http://www.ada.org/public/topics/fluoride/facts-intro.html#scientific

"Thanks in large part to community water fluoridation, half of all children ages 5 to 17 have never had a cavity in their permanent teeth. According to the April 2000 Journal of Dental Research, the use of fluoride in the past
40 years has been the primary factor in saving some $40 billion in oral
health care costs in the United States."

Hard to argue this. The site has a lot of other info. The research is there. even if it was not so good for the fish, your kids teeth or your fish? I'm looking at $100 a cavity when my son gets them. My daughter takes after mom and has only gotten1. As Randall stated if you are that concerned, Ro/DI takes caaare of most of it. I'll still worry about driving to work. paul.

[brewmaster15]

"Thanks in large part to community water fluoridation, half of all children ages 5 to 17 have never had a cavity in their permanent teeth. According to the April 2000 Journal of Dental Research, the use of fluoride in the past
40 years has been the primary factor in saving some $40 billion in oral
health care costs in the United States."

---

It is hard to argue that , but what are the hidden costs?

I remember the old screen ads for DDT.... saved tons of money in insect damage to crops.. Showed how safe it was by spraying on people.....talk about hidden costs there.


Now am not saying fluoride is an evil,,, like DDT. Just that chemically it has some very disturbing properties.

-al

[RandalB]

I'm not particularly concerned about it as the whole family gets RO water for drinking/cooking (including the dogs). The topical application of flouride to the enamel of the teeth is ensured by Flouride toothpaste and flouride treatments at the dentist. That should be enough to keep the "Sugar Bugs" (as my daughter calls them) away...

There is a ton of research being done on the effects of flouride in the water, as I said in an earlier post, it will be interesting to see what the results are. The link Al posted does raise some interesting points on the topic.


RandalB

[Mr. Limpet]

Al, don't start on DDT. Clearly a very controversial subject, But even Dr. Dean Adell(sp?) is convinced on the risk/benefit of DDT in the control of malaria, which is a huge problem in many parts of the world. The missuse of it is more likely the real problem. JMO, Paul.

[brewmaster15]

Paul,

DDT? controversial? Not too much so... It nearly made the bald eagle,peregrine falcon, and other top predators extinct.

Banning its use in this country was the best environmental decision that could have been. Sadly its still used elsewhere.

That pesticide bio-accumulated far too easily.

I recognize the need to control mosquitoes carrying malaria.. But DDT would not be the answer. Sadly no chemical is ... The answer lies in finding a way to vaccinate against this pathogen.. Insects will always become resistent to a chemical.

The probelm with malaria is not the mosquito carrier. Its that the pathogen hides so well in a persons cells.

I have to disagree with you on this Paul. DDT isn't an answer ...its another problem.

JMO,
al

[Mr. Limpet]

Al, after doing a little research, I will have to say that I agree with you. Although it is estimated that it has saved 25 million lives, what the long term cost is, is not acceptable. The WWF and WHO are looking for better answers. I stand corrected. Paul.

[brewmaster15]

Paul,

The WWF and WHO are looking for better answers. I pray they find one. The bug that causes this terrible illness is one of our most challenging to find a cure for.

I think the key will be a vaccine that somehow targets it before it enters the cells....No an easy task ., at least there is alot known about the organism that causes.... now if we could just use that info to prevent it enmass.

-al

ps.. Heres an allarming thought....west nile virus.. dengue...aka break bone fever
yellow fever
malaria
all vectored by tropical mosquitoes...

...They better find a cure before it gets mouch warmer around here.!