What do you expect when you buy and breed?

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
Just a question for you all to see what everyones general perceptions are. I fully expect that everyones ideas here will be different. ;) :)

When you buy a group of fry from the same parents or bearing the same name...then grow them out to breed them, what do you expect from those fish?

Do you expect that fry sold as red turqs should throw a large percentage of Red turqs? Should Super Duper Red Melons bred to each other give you offspring that look like the parents? Or at least mostly do?

Should fry from a purple scarlet black and blue ghost discus.. bred to the same give you the same or at least good numbers of the same.

Do you find the terms " F1, F2, F3 crosses" as confusing or as somehow inferior fish to the names like red watermellons,dragons fire, rainbow wonders?

what to you is an acceptible number of fry that resemble their parents in a pair of blue diamonds. Would you consider 50%, 60% or more to be a sign that this pair is breeding true?

Or do you just buy the fish because they look nice, have a nice name, and you really don't care what the offspring look like because you only liked them enough to pay $25, 35, 60 or more for the 2''fish, and have no interest in breeding them. Hopefully they grow to look like the picture of the adults you saw?


Or have you come to the belief that Discus offspring these days are like a box of chocolates... genetically...you never know what you are gonna git. :)

-al

[brewmaster15]

ps... Theres no right or wrongs here...Just oppinion and perceptions of what everyone wants so please share your views on this.

-al

[Jason]

if it was angel fish, guppies, or a betta I would expect at the very minimum 75% of the fry to resemble the parents.
now with discus I would have to say 60% if you grew the fry out and bred them to each other.
I say this because having bred alot of discus, I know how hard it is to fix a strain, discus defy all logics on genetics as far as I understand genetics.

so 60% for a newer strain and 75%-100% for older strains.

under 60% i feel the fish should be sold as (discusx)X(discusy) with the apropriate F#

now for fry if your buying super-duper mellons, all the fish should grow too look like the parents.
ie: if your buying 10 2" san merah, all ten of those fish should have the traits that define the strain, and not 8 san merah and 2 rose red! you bought san merah you should get all san merah.

I know its tough to do with some strains and hormoning/iron blasting has to be done to get a look at how it will develope and be graded. ie:leopards

I feel its the breeders responsibility to inform the costomer that the strain isnt fixed, and if the fry your buying cant be graded at the size at purchase, the costomer should be made aware as well.

so for the breeders, don't sell fish under a strain name if it isnt fixed and make the costomer aware if the fry your selling may not all grow too look like the parents.

for the costomer, buyer beware.

[korbi_doc]

:bounce2: :bounce2: :bounce2: Hey Al, have just 1 ? for U! Do you stay up late at nite & think up all these questions, or do you just pull them out of your head??????
For a busy family, discus, workin' guy, you sure do come up with some doozies!!! Great job!!! Keep us thinking professor!!!

For my part, I just hope when I buy fish from a breeder, that they will be phenotypically correct, but also understand that very young fish don't always turn out to be what we expect in the long run, so buyer beware & also be ready to spend a little more money to insure better quality. Pretty much agree with Jason. Now, genetically, we understand that there could be lotsa genes in that background that will only show up when one evaluates a group ie. progeny testing, esp with a fish that has been bred across so many boundaries as the discus has!! lol,, Dottie ::) ::)

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dottie!

Hey Al, have just 1 ? for U! Do you stay up late at nite & think up all these questions, or do you just pull them out of your head??????
Dottie I have more questions than I will ever find the answers to.... which is good....keeps me from getting bored. :) ;D ;D ;D ;D

-al

[DiscusBob]

For the most part, I would expect the fry to resemble the parents. I just had my first batch in five years back in May. They were Red Turks X Blue Diamond (or Cobalt depending on who you believe).

It was a hell of a first batch: 125 of them. 90 of them made it to 2". At this point, every single one of them looks like their dad (Red Turk). Dad, hoever, has black eyes and mom has red eyes. Almost all of them have red eyes.

Can't really explain it except to assume the Red Turk gene is dominant over the Blue Diamond gene (makes sense). All these red eyes tell me that the red eye gene is dominant over the bleack eye gene (which doesn't make sense. Perhaps one of the Red Turks' parent had red eyes?

If they're crosses, like a PB X RT, they might get 'dirty'...but you might get something amazing too. Orange and blue are pretty colors on their own, but mixed together, you might get a less attractive color. Crossing strains is a crapshoot in my estimation.

Bredding really is like a box of chocolates... well put!

As far as names like red watermellons, dragons fire, rainbow wonders....I think that just adds $50 to the price of a discus.

I was just at a LFS the other day: they had what appeared to be and arrowhead-shaped 2" cobalt. The label on the tank said: "Shimmering Violet Discus: $79.99". Jet balck eyes, pinched forhead....MAYBE a little purple in the coloring...but it looked like a cobalt to me. Maybe it was the lighting?

Frankly, when I hear these 'titles' I just think its a load of BS and roll my eyes. Like so: ::)

Bob

PS I'll trade my Glimmering Golden Cherry Bomb Discus for someone's Shiny Dawn Rainbow Surprise.... Anyone?

[limige]

well with most strains i feel that a large percent of the fry should resemble the parents. there are exceptions of course.
fish like BD are based on a highly recessive gene, i feel that BD's should produce 30-50% Bareless fry. it is my opinion that any pair that produce a rather large portion of BD fry may be a "set" strain but since it's based on such a recessive gene it is also a very weak genialogy wise. meaning prone to may problems such as eyesight problems, organ problems ect.

now old strains such as turks are predominant enough i feel they should breed true.
pigeons however are a shot in the dark with peppering an stuff.

if the fry of a set strain such as turks produce a large variaty of fry then i would have to guess the the parents may have been outcrossed to strengthen the genes but also added unwanted genes. so further breeding will be needed to get desired fry.

[CARY_GLdiscus]

WELL Said Limige :thumbsup:

[Willie]

The percentage of frys that will resemble the parents is going to differ by strain. It depends to a great extent on how rigorous the strain description is, and of course, to the underlying genetics.

Red turqs throw 100% red turqs because the definition of RT is so broad. Try spawning super red melons and the results will be different. If you define super red melons as having red fins, the percentage will be extremely low. Buy some $500 fish and you can be absolutely sure that they will not be true breeding. They are the pick of the litter. The breeder wouldn't have to price them at $500 if all the spawn looked the same.

Limige: My definition of Blue Diamond is that they throw 100% barless BD's. Otherwise, they are not Blue Diamonds.

Willie

[barron]

Hi

I think the whole thing went too far.

No one knows what type of Discus they have.

Look at the red diamonds, they are all polluted.
Some look like red turq, spotted red lep, some with bars some with no bars forget it. Gems, brilliants, r.d.t., on and on. Also the R.S.G. F1 or F2 they never look the same.

This hetro breeding may work against itself, by creating a weak gene that will wipe them all out. Who knows?

In people, this makes us stronger, so they say!

I do not know how this will effect the Discus.

This will put us back to the basic wild strains. With a few newer ones that make it.

All i.m.o.

Barron :)

[limige]

willie, what kind of percentages of fry do you have to cull due to deformalities, blindness, or organ disorders?
i was my understanding that BD's will tend to throw many more when your bareless percentage got so high. ???
i'm still learning, input is greatly appreciated.

[ChloroPhil]

With all the inbreeding, linebreeding, and crossbreeding, and Wild x Domestic breeding done these days it's a wonder anything breeds true. I think most breeders are lucky in that there are so many different breeds that they can breed two fish and get fry of four different recognized strains/sports!

If I were to buy a pair of domestics for the purposes of breeding I'd count a 50-60% throw and a success. If they were of the more common/basic strains such as Turqs or Snakeskins I'd expect a much higher percentage to breed true. For all practical purposes I feel it's impossible to get anything more than a 95% true breed simply due to the laws of genetics.

At this point shape and overall health is more important than lineage. One can always try to manipulate lineage, but health is another matter entirely.

[EthanCote.com]

I agree with most of the points given above, but I am more concern with the fact that there is a lack of standards in regard to discus strains development.

I believe there should be at least a 90% true strain grow out before they are sold as such. I got no clue how many generations it will take to achieve 90%+ of fries will grow to be like their parents but I would like to see this implemented before they are being sold as a strain.

If fries developement won't achieve a 90%+ return in pure strain, perhaps a disclaimer of some short should be made available to the buyers or inform buyer of this fact before they are sold. I would also like to see sellers give out information on strain generation, ie. how many generation this strain has been in development.

The bottom line is, we buy a strain because of the way they look and in so doing, we hope that their offsprings in turn will turn out to be physically like their parents.

Not sure if a 90%+ of pure strain is feasible but it sure would make life a whole lotta easier for us hobbyist.

Now don't get me started on the naming system. ;D I too would like to see a standard for that.

K that's me two cents.


Cheerio,

Chi.

[Willie]

limige;

On the BD's, I typically cull 20% -- which includes deformed as well as runts. I believe that the runts contain hidden problems -- as most do not grow past 4 months. On RT's, I get < 10% deformed fish and runts.

Willie