Filter thoughts here...

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
I have been looking at my tanks and thinking about removing my aquaclear 500's on some of them.

I use 29 gal with a hydro iv or v in my breeders with 2 adults in it, and no other filters. do frequent water changes ( 30% on average daily, sometimes every other day) and the water is fine.

I usually keep 5-6 adults in 55gal, and 7 in 75s. On those tanks I have aquaclears , and hydros. I still do lots of water changes, so why do I (we) use aquaclears. Does anyone just run sponges like hydros on their larger tanks? I realize that the hydro like sponges take up tank space and look bad, but in a fish room tank...not a display tank... can 3 hydros in a 75g tank with 7 adults do the same as 1hydro and and aquaclear 500 that uses just sponge media. provided you do regular water changes.


I know the supplimental power filters still pull a lot of crude out of the water but are they necessary if you use hydros, and do frequent water changes. Realistically though I use the hydros as biological filters,I wring them out frequently and they actually make a pretty decent mechanical filter also.

opinions?experiences?

-al

[Willie]

I'm thinking along the same lines. I have 75's, 55's, 40's, 30's... running with just sponge filters and those tanks do absolutely fine. I also have a bunch of Emperors and Marineland biowheels running on some other large tanks. They do a lousy job of mechanical filtration, so major contribution is biological filtration. When they die, they'll be replaced with sponge filters.

Willie

[Tad]

Brew and Willie,
I totally agree that hydro sponges alone will provide more than adequate bio filtration for any sized aquarium. The predominate method/combination of barebottom and vacuum/water changes makes manual mechanical filtration work very well along with the sole use of hydros. The use of Aqua Clears on my part were mostly for what I feel is a excellent bio filter and asthetically appealing. The addition of a prefilter to the AC system also removes some of the more micro material/waste that floats in the water. Im slowly converting to Hydro Sponges only...mainly for cost reasons as they are extremely efficient and cheap to run.

JMO,
Tad

[Carol_Roberts]

I prefer the AC 500 for juveniles. The water stays clearer and the current puts all the debris at one end of the tank for easy siphoning. I don't like anything in my tank except discus and heaters ;D

[henryD]

Right now I use a combination of both sponges and power filter. But I think I will slowly migrate to just sponges. THis way I could save money on the electricity and set up another tank or get more fish.

[Jeff]

I only use sponges. Yes there is debris in the tank but with daily wcs I can live with it.

It depends on the air flow through the hydrosponges and the venturi (neg) pressure generated by the airflow. Knowing Al is using an air pump which can operate 40 tanks. There's no need for any extra additional filters. If the same hydrosponge filter is powered by a small airpump. Additional filter is needed. All my friends are slowly removing their additional filters since they start using a powerful air pumps. I have 25 adults in a 65 gal with 2 hydrosponges only and they can eat untuil they drop and the water stays clear while the hydrosponge is clotted with fragments of BH that they eventually pick it clean in an hour.
Jimmy.

[brewmaster15]

Jimmy that was a good point on the air flow. It would definetly make or break the system.
Thanks,
-al

[Carol_Roberts]

I only have individual airpumps. That must be why mine don't keep the water as clear

I know one of the famous breeder hook up a small powerhead on each of his hydrosponge in his tank and nothing else, his water is crystal clear and he doesn't even clean the sponge???? ??? that's what he told me.
Jimmy

I've changed my mind a couple times(just hydro-sponges vs. hs's and aquaclears) right now I'm back in the using both phase....especially on the fry tanks-with a prefilter though-that way the food stays on the prefilter(as does the waste) and doesn't clog the sponges inside the filter....It makes a big difference to the water quality(visually, anyway)...I'm often gone for 2-3 days a week, so with my tanks on a drip system, the AC's suck up the majority of the waste...
david

[DavidH]

I'd love to go to just sponge filters on my 29gals, but I tried this once and I guess I cleaned too well any lost my bio.
How do you guys get around this, and how often are you rinsing your sponges.

Dave

[RandalB]

Al,
I took the aquaclear 200 off one of my 20H breeding tanks and noticed no difference in water clairity. I was using 1 Sponge and 1x200.

If you get rid of the 500's I'll be happy to give them a new home....

RandalB

David,
I only use hydrosponges on my smaller breeder tanks(usually just one) I don't have a set schedule for cleaning...If it starts to look dirty, then I pull it out and rinse it in water I've syphoned from that tank...Often when I'm syphoning, I will syphon the outside of the sponge(while it's in the tank running) to remove any debris and pull debris out from inside the sponge...
david

[brewmaster15]

On the cleaning the Hydros... I don't know why I don't notice anything with the bio filter but I wring them out in a bucket of water with almost every water change..... and I don't notice any difference in my biofilter. I will say the down side to doing that is I tear thru them...They pretty much fall apart on me after a few months.

-al

[DarkDiscus]

Al,

If you do the kind of water changes you do, you don't need the ACs - they are just a safety net. And they would help keep the tanks clean if you needed to take a few days off for vacation or whatever...

In the old days I used sponge filters alone on grow out tanks for a number of different cichlid species and found that the detritus built up quickly... but then I wasn't doing daily changes either...

John

[DenverDan]

on my 29 gallon breeder tanks I use 2 hydro sponges only, on the 55 gallon pair up tanks I use a hydro sponge and a aquaclear 300. On the 125 gallon and above I use 2 hydro sponges and 2 aquaclear 500's. Why? because it makes me feel better if I overfeed or miss a water change. What price is peace of mind when dealing with Discus?

But other than peace of mind, it appears that just sponges and water changes would be just fine, but is there a limit on the number of discus that you can put in a tank using this method? IE could you put the same number of discus in the same tank using just sponges, or could you put more discus in a like tank with sponges & aquaclears?

Dan

[brewmaster15]

Dan,
I think the answer to that question would be dependent on what you do for tank maintenance.


Technically both sponges and power filters with sponges in them are biological filtration.... and they are both mechanical filters. The difference is one is driven by air the other by an impeller.

all-
I know its aesthetically more pleasing if the water is clear, and I'm not trying to equate these two things.. but is "out of sight is out of mind" and I wonder how similar an aquaclear 500 is that isn't cleaned daily is to a gravel tank that isn't cleaned daily. Both can hide crude. Both are biological filters, and both give crude a place outside of the water table to settle. Personally I think theres probably little or no similarity but it makes you wonder a little. :) ;D ;D ;D


so how often are we all cleaning those prefilters and internal sponges?

al

[DavidH]

That's what I was thinking. I clean the sponges and pre-filters all the time cause it's easy. The box filters maybe once a month. I find gunk in the impellers and wonder if it's not just like a ug filter. Guess I could clean the AC's more but maybe it's more efficient and cleaner in the long run to just run the sponges. ???

[DISCUSDADDYSLC]

CHECK THIS ONE OUT TOOK MY HYDRO SPONGES AND SHOVED TWO INSIDE MY 350MAGNUM DELUXE.WORKING GREAT A WEEK NOW???

[Willie]

Dave_C:

I think its a common misconception that you can lose biological cycling by overcleaning the sponges. More likely, the sponges were not adequately cycled in the first place.

Here's a typical scenario when I clean out my 29 gal breeder.

1. Wiped down all surfaces, including heater, filter base, etc.
2. Vigorously squeeze sponges in tank water
3. Make 100% water change.

Under these conditions, I never lose filtration.

John Nicholson and I discussed this at ACA last month. He made a pointed comment about this, "imagine the world we live in if you could squeeze bacteria out of sponges"! I agree with him.

Willie

[Rod]

Hi,

Smaller tanks like breeders and fry tanks i use sponge filters only.

Medium tanks around 75gallons i use 2 sponges and a small powerhead with a piece of dacron cloth in it. I clean the dacron about twice a week under high pressure from the hose. Not only does this make the water clearer , but also distributes the heat better in the tank imo. Sometimes the current produced from air driven sponges is not enough to give even water mixing in bigger tanks.

Larger tanks over 100 gals i use 1 large sponge filter and an ac 500. I also have a couple of large tanks with side trickle filters, these have dacron sheets in the pre filter area and are rinsed a couple of time a week.

All the sponge filters are rinsed in used water about once a fortnight.

Rod

[limige]

i ditched my whispers and went straight to hydro's.


even in my 190 gallon tank i ran 4 hydro V's, 2 stacked in each corner, eventually made a wet/dry with a 500gpd mag drive, and i still keep 2 sponges in the tank for safety.

relying on mechanical impellors is asking for trouble, i've lost fish due to the filter not starting back up when i plugged it in. sponges are very easy to spot if they are working or not. and provide more than enough filtration.

with babies they must be rinsed daily, with adults i do it about once a week or so.

i see power filters as a waste of money and askiing for trouble, if you want more filtration stack the sponges, it's much cheaper than an ac or whisper, not to mention cartride cost.

[brewmaster15]

Hi Rod!

Medium tanks around 75gallons i use 2 sponges and a small powerhead with a piece of dacron cloth in it. I clean the dacron about twice a week under high pressure from the hose. Not only does this make the water clearer , but also distributes the heat better in the tank imo. Dacron Cloth! Now thats an idea...you created a micron filter of sorts. Can you snap a picture and give a little more detail?


Jimmy... I believe the Hydros are marketed as air driven or By powerheads.

DiscusDaddy...
CHECK THIS ONE OUT TOOK MY HYDRO SPONGES AND SHOVED TWO INSIDE MY 350MAGNUM DELUXE.WORKING GREAT A WEEK NOW??? be careful. I tried this a few months ago and because the pore size on the hydros is so small It clogged real fast. If you are using it like this...clean it often.... and use a prefilter.


hth,
al

[gary1218]

OK, I'm getting a little p'd off here that I seem to be the ONLY one that can't clean a hydro sponge without getting a little bit of a nitrIte spike. Willie - I wish I was in on that conversation with you a John :)

I have a good stream of air bubbles flowing thru the filters and they're usually running for two months or more before I clean them so I know they are well established.

For those of you vigorously cleaning them do you test for nitrItes a day or two later? Or, are you assuming that because the discus are acting fine that there are no nitrItes in the water? My discus show no signs of being stressed because there is nitrItes in the water but when I test for it I get a low reading. It's ususally gone in another day or two.

The entire bacteria colony obviously isn't totally destroyed but maybe enough of it is killed that it can't get up with the tank for a few days before the bacteria colony gets a chance to multiply again.

GARY

[O]

I've always wondered if it is possible to have too much bio-filtration? (Assuming that there's adequate aeration) If so what are the consequences?

hydros, power filters and wet/dry filters are very effective in removing ammonium & nitrites, but what about nitrate build up? I know this is probably not a big issue with daily WC's, however if the nitrate levels were controlled through bio-filtration, in theory one would require less WC's.

O.

[Liz_Streithorst]

O, I don't think that it's possible to have more than enough. The good bacteria won't exceed the amount of food available to feed it. If the bio load increased, the good bacteria will increase. If it delcines, so will the good bacteria. If there is no bio load, all you will have is a plain sponge which is harmless.

Liz

[brewmaster15]

Hi o,
You really can't have too much biofiltration, as the population of bacteria that is breaking the ammonia and nitrite is limited in its growth to that "food" and the surface area of sponges/tank walls it grows on.


Gary,
I don't doubt your problems. I do measure from time to time and never get an ammonia or nitrite spike.
So why is it that you and others report it and others don't?

I believe theres a good chance that it has to do with 2 things...

1....many bacterias require certain minerals to attach properly to a substrate. Case in point.. columnaris...needs calcium/magnesium. Displace these ions with Sodium and the bacteria reportedly doesn't attach well ( which is why salt is beneficial in treating columnaris)The twist is its dependent on strain...some strains of columnaris are inhibited more than others by salt. Water parameters may affect the ability of biofilter to bind.... Thats speculation on my part.


2.... It was always thought and still is by many that biofilter bacteria was Nitrosomonas (breaks down ammonia to nitrite) and nitrobacter(breaks down nitrite to nitrate). I thinks theres a really good chance that there are many other bacterias that may do this as well. Maybe yours are one of the others? I know alot of reserach has been done by Tim Hovanec at Marineland that shows the real bacteria doing the work is nitrospiro for the conversion of nitrite to nitrate.
http://www.marineland.com/drtims.asp

I think this indicates that all the players in the biofilter game may not be known yet. Some may behave differently.

Hth,
al

[RichieE]

Great topic. Its the dumb question I never asked :P. If your going to change 25-50% of the water everyday and your not useing carbon or other media what exactly is the aquaclear doing? If you need more biological filtration add another sponge filter or stack them and increase the air flow.
I use a sump and sponges on my larger tank and just sponges on the smaller ones. I'm toying with the idea of disconecting the sump. I'm growing out 17 fish in a 30 gall. with just one sponge. They will be 3 months old tomorrow and are just a shade under 3 inches. They will be moved to a larger tank this weekend with 2 sponges. The sponge is sufficient IME. I clean sponges twice a week very thoughly. I feed heavy and the water in a 3 gallon pail turns dark brown. I have not noticed any harm from the loss of bacteria but I have not tested for nitrate/nitrite/amonia spikes either.
If I were running one tank the costs of buying and running an aquaclear would be minimal. The idea of running more than that when I could use cheap sponge filters isnt appealing.
As a side note the pump that Jason is selling is very powerful. According to John at Jemco it will run over 50 outlets. It uses a minimal amount of electric and is VERY reasonably priced. Its a great option for someone thinking of mothballing power filters. HTH Rich

[CARY_GLdiscus]

I like them both on Some tanks!
But My best Filter is W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C ;)

[brewmaster15]

best Filter is W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C W/C AMEN!!!!!!

-al

[JeffreyRichard]

Al, as you know the function of a biofilter is to provide a bed for bacteria to feed off the nitrogen compounds in the water. And surface that is porous that water can flow through works. I prefer the cheapest possible approach ... 4x4x4 sponge cubes with an airlift inserted in the sponge. The airlift will draw water into the sponge, allowing the water to pass over the bacteria. You can build these for $2 apiece. Why spend $$$ for hydrosponges? Also, powerfilters are good, but again, the cost of the unit and the cost to run is high. Why not invest in a good air supply (blower) and you can run as many sponges as you want?

I only advocate sponges for hatcheries, as they arn't really very asteically pleasing.