Automatic syphon system

[Tristanyyz]

The best choice for a fully automatic water change system would be an overflow. However, I myself enjoy filling the tank, I just dont like to empty it. As this is a daily routine for most Discus enthusiasts some people would chose to either semi or fully automate this task, including myself. I decided to botch together a system that will automatically syphon the water out of my 150 gallon tank, to the desired level, during the day when I am at work, so when I come home, I simply hook up my pump and fill it up.

This system is for those who have a big show tank, or two, and although don't mind filling, but would prefer not to empty a tank. Less the regular manditory poop patrol.

As I have two canister filters on my tank (one at either end) and due to the fact I have an extra high tank, 28 inches high, I needed to fashion an extra-long pvc pipe for the intake. This means that the filters can keep running when the water level is low. Then I created a syphon using a pvc pipe, cut to a safe length somewhat longer than the 50% mark, so that it wont loose syphon at 50%, but if something goes wrong, it wont completely drain the tank below where the canister filters will stop operating. Picture below.

[Tristanyyz]

The shorter pvc pipe shown in that picture is connected to the clear tubing, I used an extra python because thats what I had on-hand.

The other end of the tube is connected to an anti-syphon irrigation valve with solenoid. As shown below. This valve will not allow water in the opposite direction. Water can only drain out of the tank, when the soleniod is open, and the syphon can not be broken. The solenoid is wired to an irrigation timer that will open and close the valve at specified times of the day, for specified duration.

[Tristanyyz]

Before I get to the timer, the other end of the tubing goes to drainage, in my case, and to the horror of my girlfriend, the bathtub. Eventually it could be plumbed. (mental note, next project).

The timer, shown below, is a great little device. It uses a battery backup, and plugged in by a dc adapter. Simply set the time when you want the solenoid to open, thus start draining your tank, and set the duration, or how long you want the tank to drain. With minimal effort you can figure out how long it takes to drain your tank to the desired level. The water will drain slowly, it will take several hours to drain 75 gallons. Infact mine takes 400 minutes in total. The fish hardly notice it.

Now, more on this later, however, in order to get the valve to drain fast enough you need to take apart the anti-syphon valve, and remove the flow restrictor. When you open the soleniod, the water doesnt just start flowing out like you open the flood gates, it trickles, slowly, too slowly if you dont remove this restrictor, (shown in a future posting). The reason why is that this valve is designed to operate at a pressure of 40psi approximately. The syphon we created with the intake from the tank, is much less, therefore you need to open up the valve and play around with it to get it to work. More on this later, for now, back to the timer.

The timer I bought can connect up to 4 soleniods, and independently time the same. So infact you could hook up another three tanks to this system and run it off of the same timer, which I think is cool. Another feature of this timer, is that it has a "rain delay" feature. I use this feature when I am at home and dont want to listen to my spraybars cascading into the tank due to the lower water level. So if you must post-phone a water change, simply hit the rain delay feature, and the valve will not open that day. You can set the rain delay for 24hrs, 48hrs, or even 72hrs, say will be away for three days, on the third day, it will lower the water level for you...also very cool.

Here is the timer...

[Tristanyyz]

Sorry its not focused that well to see the controls. In this case, you can see on the display, that I used the rain delay feature. It shows it will remain turned off for a remaining 20 hours. It alternates between the function its performing, such as how far you are into a cycle, and the time.

To get more detailed, each channel has four intervals of a total of 99 minutes each. As previously mentioned I use 400 minutes to empty my tank to the desired level. I think this gradual trickle over this time can be very stress free for the discus, they dont notice the change, and seem very relaxed.

In order to get the anti-syphon valve to drain faster you have to remove a white plastic flow restrictor, shown below. When you open the valve, by removing the screws, you get a spring which pushes down a rubber bladder, on the top of the bladder you will see the needle point of the white plastic flow restrictor, shown below. Take the rubber bladder out, and carefully remove the white plastic flow restrictor. Now the next step is where the "bodging" comes into play. There is a tiny hole in the rubber bladder where the flow restrictor was, make it bigger for faster draining. Not alot bigger, a little bigger. Otherwise you may have a faster flow than you want. The nice thing about this is the trickle flow of the water, and how it gradually drains a tank, say 75 gallons of water in my case, over a period of 5 hours or so. So be careful not to make the hole too big.

Here is the white plastic flow restrictor...

[Tristanyyz]

As a final note, the cost of this project.

Ok, most DIYers are cheap.

But it wasnt that bad. Home Depot to souce the material.

30 inch pvc tube with an attachment that accomodates a rubber tube, $3.50CAD

20 feet of 1/2 inch tubing, $10.00CAD

1 3/4" anti-syphon irrigation valve with solenoid, $21.00CAD

2 pvc 1/2 inch reducers, $2.00CAD

1 Orbit 4 channel irrigation timer, $35.00CAD

So what does that come to, $60bucks. Cant compare to the fun it is to botch together, program it, and of course the cool factor.
Cheers,
Michael

[Tristanyyz]

Oh i forgot,

irrigation electrical wire to connect the timer to the solenoid, $10.

(get lots of wire, cause you may want to set up more tanks on the same timer in the future)

caps for low voltage, to connect the solenoid, $1.00

[ronrca]

Very good! Thanks for sharing! ;) Im working on using an automated drain/fill system that is to function in my fish room eventually! I like seeing good ideas! ;D

[limige]

thanks, i've been wondering where to buy the valves, how much and what timers to use.

i'm looking at doing a fully automated system with water storage and r/o mix. most of the plans are set just need time and money.

[Dave C]

I used to do 50% daily w/c on my 180g tank. I used a homemade PVC siphon with a 1/2" hose on it. It would take about 20 minutes to drain 90g out of the tank. If I could have left the hose in place I would have put a ball valve on the outside of the tank on the PVC pipe so I could maintain the siphon after draining but it was really no big deal to just uncoil the hose, give the end a suck and drop it into my house sump. Then I ran the hose to my holding tank for refilling. The fish never noticed the water level drop.

So while I applaud your ingenuity I wonder why you'd want to drain it so slowly and why you'd spend the cash to save yourself the 20 minutes draining time. I'd be more concerned about reducing the swimming space by 50% for more then the time it takes to empty & refill.

One thing to consider about using that timer for additional tanks... I believe each event starts once the last one ends. So while you can drain tank #2, you can only start draining it 5 hours after you start draining tank #1. If you had another 150g tank you could drain them both with this timer but it would take 10 hours and the first tank would sit with 75g for 5 hours. If you're ok with your tank sitting 1/2 empty that long you could go with a manual siphon and start it in the morning and let it run while you're at work, refill once you got home. My purpose in posting is not to criticize what you've done or say that it won't meet your needs, just things for others to consider before copying this idea.

Dave

[Tristanyyz]

Dave C,

My first paragraph was my disclaimer. Read it again if you like. Its a shared experience Dave, I am not telling other people to go out and copy my project.

The way I spend my money and time, has absolutely nothing to do with you.

A hobby is something you do for fun. Derive your own sense of satisfaction for a particular project and/or idea.

Thanks for your input, but no thanks :P

[Dave C]

I wasn't suggesting that you were telling others to copy your system but copy it they will. I was pointing out that I believe the timer works sequentially, not allowing many tanks to drain at one time. I was also pointing out that leaving a tank 1/2 empty for a period of time can be risky and the only benefit I saw was saving the 20 minutes it takes for the tank to drain. This 20 minutes is unattended, requires no labor.

This section is a place to discuss ideas. I do DIY projects all the time and when I detail them I often receive negative opinions about what I've done or questions about why I've done it. I wasn't aware that you weren't interested in a similar discussion and were only willing to hear plaudits. I will not post again on this thread.

[Tristanyyz]

No. Each soleniod, per channel works independently. Its the intervals, 4 per channel, that are stacked.

[limige]

i also am using a 1" pvc syphon with a ball valve below the bottom of the tank, it's piped over to my drain, it takes 5-10 minutes to drain 100 gallons of water ;D

but in the future i plan to automize with a solenoid and computer to drain, refill, then refill the holding container.

more complicated but much less effort.

i agree, you may want to pull that restrictor and set it for a shorter time. it's not the draining that bothers the fish, its that piping moving around in the water, if you have it plumbed they hardly realize what's going on.

but it's your tank do as you wish!
thanks again for sharing!

mike

[Rick_May]

Limige,
are you going to use x-10 controls when you hook it up to your computer? I did a project for a land fill that wanted a vehicle gate to open 30 seconds after their cash regester opened, I used X-10 controls and it works great. when I was puting it all togther I was thinking that it wouldn't be too hard to automate a pump to kick on and drain water then shutoff then turn on another pump to fill. for your valve setup check out this diagram http://www.smarthome.com/images/2310_wire_big.gif

something like this with valve 1 and 3 being a drain , valve 2 and 4 being a fill. you get the idea. this whole thing could be pretty fast if you alos use x-10 120V controls to add a pump to increse the water pressure. the sequence could go something like this.
1 drain valve open
2 pump on
3 pump off
4 drain valve close
5 fill valve open
6 fill pump on
7 fill pump off
8 fill valve closed

on the filling part you would need a float valve to prevent overfilling

[Rick_May]

Tristanyyz,
I really like your idea. One suggestion I'd give is to include an inline pump for the drainage. The way sprinkler valves work is they open with the pressure in the line, where yours is only the pressure your siphon is providing the valves aren’t opening much at all that’s why its taking so long to drain. If you include an inline pump it would drain allot faster. Easy way to do it would just get a lamp timer and set it to turn on just before you get home. Just an idea.

Dave C,
Unless orbits controllers are a lot different from the rain bird, I believe each zone setting can open more than one valve the just need to be wired together i.e. both valves are wired into the same control wire.

[Tristanyyz]

You see how this project is exciting for me is actually a reason that I dismissed earlier in my posting. Fully automated system.

I didnt quite piece it together, until recently when I found that there was such thing as a pressure solenoid! Once the solenoid detects pressure, it closes.

This is the rest of the puzzle. In this case, the water fill process is initiated by water draining. Instead of just replacing water in the overflow method, where the water fill is the initated, and the overflow is a result of the filling.

So with my siphon, the water drains to the desired level. While it drains, it affects a float valve, which opens as the water is draining, which causes a pressure solenoid to open and start filling the tank.

I am not sure yet the delivery, You could use water pressure, however then you cant age the water, say direct from a RO unit. Or you can set up an inline pump, or even submerged pump.

I do feel however that I have solved half the problem. And now I am on to the next.

I have a better peace of mind, when I know my system works based on filling initiated by drainage, than the other way around...thats just me.

Thank you Limige, and Rick_May for your excellent input.

[Murphy]

Tristanyyz,
I really like your idea. One suggestion I'd give is to include an inline pump for the drainage. The way sprinkler valves work is they open with the pressure in the line



HI tristanyyz, I plan on using the exact same timer and valves on my system. I contacted the manufacturer and asked them if the valves would open under gravity and they said that the valve needs at least 5psi to fully open. I'm thinking of using a small pump to help them out. Did you notice a significant increase in flow when you removed the restrictor?

[Haywire]

Dave C,

My first paragraph was my disclaimer. Read it again if you like. Its a shared experience Dave, I am not telling other people to go out and copy my project.

The way I spend my money and time, has absolutely nothing to do with you.

A hobby is something you do for fun. Derive your own sense of satisfaction for a particular project and/or idea.

Thanks for your input, but no thanks :P


Tristan,

Thanks! great info, and I like your attitude about it's a hobby.

I'm running a central system with what will be 250G's of tank and 50G of sump, I'll also use 2 50G tanks to mix RO and aged tap water, and adjust pH. That timer and valve is perfect!!!

I can put an old sump pump on a timer and pump the sump to the drain, or better, add a valve on the low end of the system and have the main pump empty the sump into the drain. So many possibilities. Once the sump is empty I can then use the solenoid valve and timer to open the drains on the drums to re-fill the sump and tanks!

[Haywire]

Tristanyyz,
I really like your idea. One suggestion I'd give is to include an inline pump for the drainage. The way sprinkler valves work is they open with the pressure in the line



HI tristanyyz, I plan on using the exact same timer and valves on my system. I contacted the manufacturer and asked them if the valves would open under gravity and they said that the valve needs at least 5psi to fully open. I'm thinking of using a small pump to help them out. Did you notice a significant increase in flow when you removed the restrictor?


5psi doesn't seem like a lot of pressure, can't find a conversion quickly for how that translates into inches of water, but wouldn't elevating there be enough pressure from the tank being a few feet above the valve?