help me with setting up a 190 gal bio tank

[limige]

hi all, i never really done much with plants until recently. i bought a few swords and some water sprite which have done well.

i'm thinking about turning my 190 into a planted tank for my rsg's, i have 7 rsg's and one wild green. will i have sufficient space for more discus?

currently i have a 20 gallon tank turned into a wet/dry with a 500gph mag drive. overflow on the side of the tank.

i want a lightly planted tank with lots of tall swords maybe an area with no tall plants just some "grassy" types.

how can you feed worms without them just crawling into the substrate? anyone have some kind of bowl or something to put worms in?

what type of substrate should i go with, i was thinking a sand top...

please help, this would be my first planted setup! i also have a small piece of driftwood i've used in the past, a log about 18 inches long.

lighting would be a ballast from lowes and appropiate bulbs.
first help with substrate, plants, explain CO2 ect.

what brand and types of test kits should i get? do they make meters for nitrates, nitrites, KH, PH, an GH? how do you test for co2 and o2 levels?

[aix]

i want a lightly planted tank with lots of tall swords maybe an area with no tall plants just some "grassy" types.

how can you feed worms without them just crawling into the substrate? anyone have some kind of bowl or something to put worms in?

what type of substrate should i go with, i was thinking a sand top...

please help, this would be my first planted setup! i also have a small piece of driftwood i've used in the past, a log about 18 inches long.

lighting would be a ballast from lowes and appropiate bulbs.
first help with substrate, plants, explain CO2 ect.

what brand and types of test kits should i get? do they make meters for nitrates, nitrites, KH, PH, an GH? how do you test for co2 and o2 levels?


I assume the swords you bought are big? Then you can add some tiny sword which can make a "carpet". Some Ech. are only 4-5cm high and with sufficient light they grow nicely. If I remember correctly then eisebachii was such a small one with nice green color(have to check this one, not sure of the name). You probably need a fertilizer, JBL 7-balls has worked out the best for me. Last for a year and supply plants with all the vital elements.

If you want to feed living worms then for that there is a special feeding cup.

Sand is probably a good idea. But use only sand since it mixes with other (gravel etc) anyway. Still I would prefer gravel but with very fine structure (easier to keep clean).

With every water you do not need extra CO2, in some conditions there is plenty available anyway. So check your water parameters first. If you know pH and KH you can find available CO2 from a special table (for example from www.tropica.dk).

There are good test kits available to test all the parameters. I have noticed that JBL tests "live" longer (do not get old and start showing strange numbers) and they can be bought in refill packages. There is a special test kit with all the necessary tests.

First of all you should find out your water parameters.

Good luck with plants. They bring a whole new dimension to your hobby!

[limige]

ok, well i bought two small swords awhile back, one is a red type, i'll have to check the names later, and one is a solid green.

the red one stays short but the green one grew huge. but i patially killed it when i did a prazi treatment, i didn't realize it would hurt the plant. so i recently pulled it and put it in a different tank to regrow. my wilds have been picking at the leaves, not allowing it to grow further.

anyway, i figured i'd buy more of the same type, it will take some time to grow them up but it's much cheaper than buying them already big and i need time to adjust and make sure things are fine before i put fish back in the tank.

i'm planning to have it strictly plants for several months until things stabilize.

so about substrate, gravel with sand on top? do i need an undergravel filter or does it do well without one?

[ChloroPhil]

Limige,

If you're going for a Biotope tank then stick with wood and moderate grain sand.

If you're going more for a natural feeling planted tank go with small grain gravel/large grain sand with a Laterite base.

Echinodorus spp swords will be a good choice for a 190g aquarium. A couple of them will go a LOOOOONG way in filling up your tank and may be the only plants you have in there once they get full grown.

As a point of reference I just got an adult Melon Sword from someone at a club meeting this weekend that completely filled a 30g trash bag. It's HUGE, but the discus love the cover it provides.

As far as feeding goes, put worms in a feeding cone for the fish to pick at.

Get yourself a good KH and pH test kit. Don't worry about Nitrate and Phosphate, you'll be adding enough with the food. Well, you may need a little extra Nitrate, but probably not too much.

Definately invest in a quality pressurized gas CO2 system. Milwaukee makes a really good regulator/bubble counter/needle valve system.

[Abercrombie6202]

Substrate i would go with Flourite mixed with Pea gravel, that's what i did.

Plants, i would do a variety of swords, but no all the same kind, like regular swords, ruffle swords, melon swords, and also i'd get some Middle-ground plants, for the middle so it grdually goes from low plants to tall plants. I would say to use hair grass, or micro sword for your foreground plant if you want it grassy like.

Co2 for a big tank like that just spend a couple hundred dollars and buy a big Co2 injector!!

other people make there own, i don't know how, probably ask in the Do It Yourself section.

[ChloroPhil]

Check this link out.

http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=4006090712&f=1306023812&m=4666068222

That's how ALL discus aquaria should look. :)

Best,
Phil

BTW, I'll be happy to answer any questions regarding making a CO2 reactor if needed.

[RAWesolowski]

Limige,

Don't worry about blackworms or food in the substrate. The discus will pick over the gravel by blowing and sucking to find every morsel of food just like they do in the Amazon. Do find a worm feeder cone, you'll love the way the fish come right to the front and surface of the tank to be fed. Less aggressive fish will feast on the worms that tumble out from the cone.

Do pay attention to the substrate. I prefer a dark bottom and I mixed Seachem Onyx Gravel Substrate with with EcoComplete gravel. Results have been very good coupled with 3 36" flourescent bulbs. Amazon swords has done very well as have the crypt undulata and wendtii. Ozelot sword and rubin sword have grown at a much slower pace. The wendtii is a reddish brown that complements the coloring of the mopani wood. Its size and bushiness rivals the sword.

Only fertilizer used is Seachem Flourish. Plants are leggier in the deeper 36 bow despite the compact flourescent fixture.

Only disappointment in the plants are the echinodorus tenellus. They grow well and spread to form a carpet but quickly become discolored will algae and do not appear at their best despite otocinculus and bristlenose with little algae noticeable in the tank.

Of course, the e. tenellus is right where the discus graze... but that shouldn't be a factor!

[limige]

so far i have used flourish, it seems to work great!!

the swords i have now are

radican sword-echinodorus cordifolius
grew large fairly quick, these are my primary choice so far.

ozelot sword-echinodorus ozelot
got kinda bushy, didn't grow much in height, brownish red leaves collects alot of algea on the leaves.

i also plan to keep water sprite in there, the stuff i have is growing like mad, i took some into the lfs for store credit awhile back, it carpeted my 190!

i do have worm feeders but it seems they don't stay in there long, i just may have to move to smaller more often feeding.

there seems to be a mixed opinions on gravel and sand.

phil i love the link you posted that tank looks awesome!

is there a mix of plants i need to keep the tank healthy or can i stick to mainly swords and water sprite on a sand bottom with some wood.

they reason i took the wood out is because of my algea problem, i'm not a fan of plecos in my tanks but if i have to i could.

i would like to use it because i like the look of it.

is there any way i can use driftwood found on the beach or is it impossible to clean it right? also, is the reptile wood peices alright for tanks?

is there any benificial purposes to mosses in the tanks?

mike

[limige]

the grassy area i had in mind would use the same type as used in the foreground of the first pic of this post
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=11933

what type of grass is it?

i was thinking of doing the grass and a few short swords on one end and the tall swords throughout the rest of the tank with some floating water sprite.

[ChloroPhil]

That's Echinodorus tenellus v. "micro". It's a very thin leaf version of the traditional Chain Sword.

As far as your question, yes, Swords and Watersprite will be great as your sole plant source. Watersprite is awesome for keeping the water column filtered.

No, don't get wood from the wild. Buy it from someone who specifically sells for aquarium use. If you do decide to get wild wood make sure to boil and bleach it VERY well before use.

Mosses, such as Java Moss are great nutrient sponges as well as awesome for fry and just to make a tank look pretty.

Sorry for the abrupt reply..I've got to get to class. This whole 2nd degree thing is going to be the death of me. ;D
Best,
Phil

[limige]

what type of maintence and/or problems will i have with a solid sand substrate..
how is gravel easier, what are the advantages to mixing the two?
will i get critters living in there? should i buy snails or something else to keep it clean and healthiy?

[aix]

Usually, sand is a bit harder to keep clean. But for bottom fish sand is much better. Fish can dig in and feel much better. Corydoras etc are much more active with sand bottom.

[ChloroPhil]

Sand is a great substrate provided it's amended with Laterite and the grain is not too small. You want to make sure you grains are at least 2mm in size. Anything smaller than that will just compact and go anaerobic.

Gravel is easier to vaccuum and generally easier for plants' roots to go through. I've found that a mixture of medium grain sand and gravel works very well and creates a very natural looking substrate.

Regardless of which substrate you choose you'll need something down there to eat leftovers. Corydoras are great for that as are Malaysian Trumpet Snails. I highly recommend both. Corys to eat the surface stuff and the snails to get in the gravel.

Best,
Phil

[aix]

Phil is correct as usual. Just get really "gentle" gravel, avoid sharp edges since they can damage snails and also some say can damage "moustache" of Corydoras which can affect their ability to have offspring.

[ChloroPhil]

Aix,

I have to be correct all the time. If not how will I be able to keep up my "know it all" reputation? ;D

As an aisde, I've got a couple different types of Cory cats doing just fine with Flourite and it's about the sharpest, least "gentle" substrate I know of. That's even before they have to stick their heads through a layer of foreground plants. :P

[aix]

Yes, Phil. I also have many corys in sharp gravel but this is only because I have not taken the trouble to change the gravel. I tested this- I put an additional box with very smooth gravel and corys spent all the day digging around this box did not even bother to dig anywhere else.

[limige]

ok i'll have to check into those,i honestly don't know what a cory looks like! thanks you guys are great, i'm just trying to figure out how to manage the move, i may have to get rid of some fish either that or more tanks. but i'm leaning toward gettting rid of my less desirables and keeping the best of what i have.

then i should have some room for this.

so i guess i'll have to ditch the sponge filters, my wet/dry should do alright but i may have to upgrade my pump, i only have a 500gpd mag drive right now. and about 15 gallons of bioballs.
how big should my wet/dry be setup for?

[aix]

You will probably find Corydoras fish charming. They keep your bottom clean, stay active constantly, can stand higher temp-s and look good. 8)

[ChloroPhil]

If you sump can handle 500 gph now it's perfect. You don't want/need a great deal of current in a plant tank. 2-3x/hr is just fine. Oh, and I wouldn't ditch the sponge filters, stick them in the reservoir of your sump, they're great for maintaining a cycle.

Enjoy the renovation and make sure to post step by step photos.

[limige]

sorry man, the sump is already full of sponges and floss, lol.
ok but that means i have to buy another camera, mine just crapped out on me!

anyway, it will probably take a few months, i usually don't rush into things, right now that tank has 18 3month old turks, 2 adult pigeons, 3 adult blues, 2 adult turks and 8 wild greens. i wanted to post a pic but that's when the camera gave out....

[limige]

ok, that tank renovation is under way!!!

i went with the standard pool filter sand, 150#'s mixed with some small white gravel.

i have 7 radican swords and one ozelot. i redid my wet/dry and i'm half way done with the tank.

now i need some of that micro tenellus, some cory's, snails, and a pleco or two. i think i may add another light fixture as well.

i'm using flourish for my fertilizer, and will use my r/o waste to drip the tank once a week or so.

as of now i have all my turk subadults in there but soon they will come out and the wilds will go in.

i don't have pics yet but soon i will.

[Brian-pdx]

It doesn't sound like you did this when you converted, but I haven't seen a response. No - on the undergravel filter with plants. In many cases it is too much circulation around the roots. Enjoy the experimenting and send pics when you can!

[limige]

well i'm still getting used to this camera bear with me.

[limige]

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[ChloroPhil]

Holy Cow, that's a lot of discus! I think you need to send those RSG to me, they look cramped in there with all those others. :)

Seriously, how often are you doing WC on that tank? I get serious troubles if I slack with my 5 fish in my tank. It's certainly visually stunning seeing all those fish in there though. I need a big tank now......:(

Oh, by the way, your plants will do better if you take them out of the pots they came in. If you need to pot them, small plastic ones work better. That rockwool tends to mess things up over time.

[limige]

ok, just take the plastic basket off right?! i'm going to do that when i get that micro tennalus in that i ordered. i need to call them, i ordered it before christmas...

as for water changes, i have a 1/4 inch poly line above the tank, every 2-3 days i'm hooking it up to the waste water line on my R/O filter, the wet/dry filter has an overflow line on it ;D

[ChloroPhil]

You need to take the basket off and remove the rockwool from around the roots. Tweezers and warm water are helpful for this, just be gentle.

[murthy]

Hi there!Sorry if my question here is out of place......but i'm planning a show tank too.It is a 130 g,gravel and driftwood tank(no plants).Since it is at my office I wont be able to make very regular water changes.How many adult discus can I keep,assuming water changes will be only once a week?Thanks for any help!! ;D

[limige]

i'll let someone else answer that, i'm new to the planted tank thing....

as for my setup, i did as suggested. i also made my own light fixture, ended up putting 10 4' bulbs over the tank running off 3 electric ballast. 4 of the bulbs were ones i already had, some power glo's and a plant gro from the lfs.

i tried finding the sylvania octron t8's ending in 850 or 865 but all i could find locally are 841eco's. so i bought some and used them with the bulbs i already had.

IT WAS A DISASTER
great light, kinda low bringing out the reds and blues in the fish but algea took over the tank. it's all over the sand and tank walls.

right now i shut the light off, for the next few days to help kill the algea. the tank is leaking on a bottom seam somewhere so i'm preparing to do a complete teardown, i may even drill it.

but that means moving all the discus into the breeder rack of mine, i don't have growout tanks yet..

so that is my current issue.

oh and i still haven't received my micro tenallus from aquatic-store.com they claimed to have an algea breakout and are waiting till the plants are healthy enough to ship.....so i wait..

[FischAutoTechGarten]

I had a similar experience with my first planted tank. Trying to mix Dutch, Dupla and Dennerle techniques (translated: combining all of the cheap ideas from each method..recipe for disaster). A tear down and restart and it was beautiful for years.

Still waiting to replant my 120 (several months overdue...holding off now because of an attempted B&B purchase). Actually did repairs to both the Canopy and Stand today.

I just have to paste that picture that Phil linked to though...it's the greatest:
http://www.biotopia.nl/photos/aquariaenterraria/southamerica/za3.jpg

[ChloroPhil]

Thanks for posting the picture Pete. It's definately a spectacular aquarium.....

Where are you possibly buying the B+B? The wife and I just may have to make a visit sometime...

[FischAutoTechGarten]

Mississippi. Unbelieveable isn't it? Should receive the sale contract on Monday (it was FedEx'd on Friday). Of course, than there's this little matter of actually being able to secure the funds to buy it. We'll see. We're not quite where want to be in terms of cash yet, but timing is everything and we wanted to give this one a shot.