definations-alien talk?

[discus-er]

Hi,
I have been reading half of nearly all the posts in this newbie section and am as confused as microsofts programmers trying to create bug free software ::)

Didnt know about culling, pretty sad actually, i cant think of killing any of my fish via cold water or (shiver) throwing them against the wall/floor.

Spent the last 4 days reading here and on fins.actwin.com from fish, to food, to fry food etc and been visiting my local dealers to compare notes to what i read here and their stock

I know all of you mean well esp posting in the newbie section but maybe you underestimate how much of a newbie some of us are...for example:
You refer to hard water,softwater,Nitrates, PH (spent the better part of 3 hours reading on that) gh, kh,tds, ppm,RO water,DH, sediment filters,acid neutralizing tank charged with calcite and a water softner,gas CO2,uS.........

Even though i spend most of my time looking at hundreds of lines of computer code being a programmer by profession that seems much easier and THIS is total alien talk for me with a touch of english thrown in (which is what "normal" people say when they look at my computer code)....can someone have a definations thread or answer below what exactly all of those things mean please?

eg:
hard water: the defination of hard water is....
softwater:the defination of soft water is....
Nitrates:etc
PH:etc
gh:etc
kh:etc
etc etc

I am in Stockholm Sweden unlike you lucky buggers ;) in the states and canada where everyone speaks english, so i guess i will have to buy most of my stuff off the net (except fish) by communicating with dealers , a little info on what exactly to buy too would be helpful

eg: how do you measure PH,TDS etc etc
what kind of "equipment" is needed? recomendations to dealers on the net where one can purchase this stuff too would be fantastic.
Maybe someone could outline a startup kit? I have already visited the "How do I set up my first discus tank?" thread, lots of useful info but not as to teh above, it might be because most of you thought its just too simple...

I found this especially intresting and informative (by brad) :
Steps to Choosing Discus
[hr]
If you want to choose discus from a store or local breeder:
1) Ask to see the fish being fed. Only consider those that attack the food right of the bat. Don't listen to them tell you they've already been fed, they're always hungry.

2) Look at the body dimensions of the fish. The fish should be as tall as it is long. This DOES NOT include any fins, only the actual body.

3) Fins on the fish should be erect, and the fish should not look black or dark, nor should it cower in a corner. If they dash when you come near the tank and turn dark, move on.

4) Look at the eye of the fish. If it looks big in proportion to the body then the fish may be stunted

5) Don't take fish that are the brunt of all the picking going on in the tank. The bigger, more aggressive fish in the tank are probably healthier and can defend themselves much better.

6) Choose fish that YOU would be thoroughly pleased with. That's what really matters. Make sure you are POSITIVE you want that fish. There should be no doubt in your mind
[hr]

Sorry for the long post and number of questions.... ;D
Cheers,
-Ryan

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Ryan and welcome to Simplydiscus :wave:

Here's some answers to your questions
hard water: the defination of hard water is.... Hard water contains more minerals such as calcium and magnesium. Many times hard water is from a well

softwater:the defination of soft water is....Soft water contains little minerals. Rain water and run-off water in resevoirs are usually soft

Nitrates:etc Fish excrete ammonia. Good bacteria (in the filters) convert the ammonia to nitrIte. Other good bacteria convert the nitrIte to NitrAte. NitrAte is removed by water changes. Ammonia and nitrIte are very harmful to discus and should be kept at -0-, nitrAtes are less harmful, but best kept under 5ppm

PH:etc This is a measurement of how acid or alkyline(sp) your water is. The lower the pH the more acid the water. Netural pH is 7.0, Discus do fine in pH ranging from 5.0 - 8.5 as long as it is stable. To grow out juvenile discus don't mess with the pH

gh:etc This is total hardness - degrees of german hardness. The lower the number the less minerals. You can keep discus in most city water. GH 6 - 12 is good for growing out juveniles

kh:etc this is carbonate hardness. The higher the number the more carbonates such as calcium. This buffers the water against the natural acidic process in the aquarium. It helps to stabliize pH
etc etc

[April]

well id say thats a good start. and about all you need to worry yourself about for now.
id find out from your local fish store what your water is out of the tap. then..buy a ph test kit and a hardness test kit. and an ammonia test kit and a nitrite and nitrate test kit. or a big container with all of them. then..work on that for now.
If...you water is completely uninhabitable for discus..then you can worry about the ro units which soften water . takes some of the hardness out of the water
if you get all that downpat then you can start worrying about allthe other abbreviations like microsiemens and tds. which are total disolved solids. etc.
for now you just need to make sure your water change water is the same as what is in the tank. and make sure your filter is removing all the ammonia and nitrites and you keep your nitrates lower than 5ppm. (parts per million) by doing water changes. that should be plenty for now. the rest as time goes on you will learn. the rest becomes more important with breeding. if your water is soft enough for eggs to hatch etc. then the ro units sometimes become necessary and the Us . (microsiemens ) etc. that is a measure of the conductivity. kinda like little electric static in the water. it goes with the hardness etc. i got someone to use their meter to tell me what mine was...
ok.so..the biological part. you have ph, gh, kh, those are all measures of what your water is.
then theres the ammonia and nitrites and nitrates. thats the biological part which is very important and all has to do with cycling your tank . and keeping in safe levels for your fish to survive.
then theres the the ppm. parts per million. thats how the kh and gh etc are measured.
and the microsiemens which is uS is the conductivity or your water. how it moves with little electric static stuff.
so.. best to ask your lfs which test kits to get, starting with only ph , ammonia , nitrite and nitrates kits.
if you ask them what your hardness is...you dont really need to buy those for now. unless your water does need to use ro. most likely you can raise and grow in the water coming from your tap.
most of us store overnight as the ph does change with aeration and sitting . so ph youd need to match as that can be hard on the fish if it changes with each water change.
but all in all the main thing to start with is keeping things stable. and be sure your filter is cycled. and no ammonia after you introduce your fish and begin to feed.
hope all this helps.
anymore questions..ask away.
im sure it is all mind boggling. but after reading and keep hearing it over and over it all begins to sink in. thats how i learnt by reading forums and keep hearing things referred to or keep reading the same questions . it all began to make sense.
im still learning. it never ends.
welcome to Simply.

[discus-er]

Hey Carol,
Thanks for replying and the warm welcome.

I was afraid that i was asking too many questions all at once but it seems my fears were unfounded as you guys have given me a friendly reply.

Am really happy you decided to answer my questions as I feel I almost know you, and smokie and dennis ( I think the luckest bugger on the list)....because i have read so many posts, thanks for the definitions. It certainly clears up a lot of questions.

Am thinking of starting discus as it seems challenging and I have quite a bit of time and energy, as am just out of a relationship...got lots of energy and need an outlet ;) as lost privilages to the old outlet..... ;) but before i spend the mucho $$ I want to make sure i know enough so that i have a sporting chance of actually having success with them. I guess i will read for some time more..maybe a month, ask more questions (hopefully intelligent ones) and then take the plunge with 3 pairs so i will have a fighting chance of getting make and a female breeding pair.

April, great to hear from you too, where carol stopped you coninued with the details, i guess we have established what my first move should be...test kits to get used to things.

It _IS_ pretty mind boggling right now but will read yours and Carols post a couple of times and actually go to the shops and ask questions/buy stuff and hopefully it should get clearer, for now have taken a printout ;)

Have learn quite a bit though, looks like the most important thing is the W/Cs and maintaining consistancy. Almost made a some bad mistakes before learning about these fish here :o I know a little better now.

I need to know about filters and other stuff now so i guess will have to contact the dealers on the list.

I know most of you keep your discus in tanks without gravel down and change the water nearly everyday...any reason for that? because i kind of like the gravel + plants in my tank, and it keeps the tank clean for ages...so very frequient W/C's are not really required even with a pair of goldfish that i had before.

happy discus-sing,
-Ryan

[April]

HI again. to grow out your discus big. you need bare bottom and lots of wc. it works . thats all we know.
planted tanks the fish dont grow well. if you want planted tank.then you should get bigger fish to start.
for learning to keep discus id suggest bare bottom. learn their behaviour and your water etc.
you can always do planted later. id first learn your water etc.
of course this is just my opinion.
glad you have lots of time and energy to put into discus. but sorry to hear you have more time due to changes in relationships.
you will love it im sure.

[discus-er]

Hey April,
Thanks again for replying.

Well yeah, it sounds bad but sometimes breaking off a relationship is for the best, and it was a nice break not the kind that ends with "oh yeah, hes a <insert bad word here>" or "yep, she sure was a ..........". We are doing the "just friends" thing now ;D

Wish I could get bigger fish but when god was asking me to make a decision between being rich or having good looks and brains i went with the latter....not so sure if that was wise now ??? 8) :-\

Last question I can think of for now is, how often is "frequient" W/C's? every (? ? ?) days? because with my last fish, bettas (fighter fish) they were not really picky.

Cheers,
-Ryan

[April]

hi again. lol love that. well i think i didnt get either choice of money or good looks. lol.
frequent to me and to most here is everyday. if you can do at least 25 percent a day. youd do ok. but id do 50 percent. not that hard ifyou get a pump. i use a magdrive pondpump on the end of a hose to pump out then use it again to pump in. its rather fast.

[angel12]

You may only need to be concerned about your water Ph and Harndess/softness if you decide that you want to breed Discus then you will need soft water in order to gain sucessful hatches...

Conductivity is measured in micro simens and is the waters ability to Conduct an electrical charge the lower the no the softer the water it is related to the TDS (total dissolved solids)
Like the above have said the most important thing is to find out the water Perameters of your Source water and take it from there then once you are happy with this can you look at other matters .... KISS (keep it simple and sweet) the more you mess with the water the more problems you will have ...


Good Luck

:)

[discus-er]

Hey April,
Thanks for replying.

everyday changes huh? certainly sounds like quite a bit of work...especially for me who like n number of guys crib just to take the garbage out every 2 days ;D

Nah, i think you are being modest, besides atleast you have a real nice name...if you should shout "Ryan" in a crowded place atleast 15% will ask you "yes?" its that common...or for instance shouting out "chang".....you will have a couple of million chinese people running to you ;)
(Please note, am not racist, just joke about everything)

Angel, thanks for your input too, I guess before i post a new topic again here I will first have to test and see what are the values my water is giving me, so that the experienced ppl here like you can advise me, I agree with the KISS way of doing things, even when i create software.

Been reading up a bit more on the site and dont know if i have been unlucky at not finding the answer to this or there is not a particular "fixed" parameter but how big (size and age)must a discus pair be before they are ready to mate/breed?

I see most of the stores and dealers sell around 2 1/2 - 3 inches, how old is that? and when buying that size how long does it usually take for them to be the right age/size?

Last question is, actually more of a request for your opinions, is any discus harder to breed than its cousin?
coz i really fancy the electric blues.....and the ones in Carols little pic.
(leaving the wilds out of it as I been reading what the lucky bum Dennis wrote on them ::) he sure is a lucky guy having so much success with them but it sounds like more know-how and the right "touch" than luck)

I think the quickest way i can have a lot of pairs is by taking one pair to church....remember what the lord did with bread and fish? ;D ;D ;D

Cheers,
-Ryan

[April]

hi. again. : )
ok....your "electric blues" or most likely just blue turquoise or cobalts or blue diamonds are a good one to start with. or red turqs. they seem to be good at breeding from what ive seen. the pigeons are harder to get the fry on the parents backs sometimes due to their light colours.
another good one that are good parents and seem to have good instincts are alencers. which are still close to wilds but tank bred. they get nice and dark and the kids are attracted to them. they also make great foster parents if you did have some light coloured discus who had fry.
my alencer raised my white fry. they had eggs the same time so i gave some to her.
size. they should be at least 4.5 inches to breed. under that their considered stunted or runted. id say at least 10 months to a year. some 18 months. the female may start laying by 10 months but alot of time the male isnt fertile till older.
if you could..id strongly recommend finding a breeder near you. see their fish and possibly buy their fry. alot of times the fish in the lfs (discus) are not as good quality and sometimes have been there awhile and may be 3 inches but may not grow anymore than that. thats where the size of eye in relation to the body comes in. big eye usually means older fish but runted. as the eye keeps growing but the body stops.

[discus-er]

Hey April,
Nice to hear from you again.
The "electric blues" i meant was something like the one you have in your pic.. ;D am still getting the hang of this so please excuse the "baby names/talk"

I take it "runted" is the same as stunted, but if i am wrong please correct me.

[hr]
the female may start laying by 10 months but alot of time the male isnt fertile till older.
[hr]

I find that most irritating, if i remember right its always the guys who have "fertile minds" first and chase the females and these fish have it the opposite :D

Went to the shops today on the first of my rounds...they had a couple but thanks to what i read on the list i could make out that it wasnt good stock at first all look good till you take the time to study each fish then you see the "flaws".

Didnt buy the tester kit as its really expensive here in sweden, i guess i'll buy it online, tell me what you think of these prices:
20$ for around 80 tests ONLY PH
32$ for 30 tests ALL.
or they tell me that they will give me a reading (not sure if its only ph) for a just over 1$ if i get a sample water to them.

Plus i also inquired about fry food, they dont have much here, guess will have to get that online too.

Have gotten the address of one breeder though, hes around 2 hours from where i am and this guy told me he thinks that this breeder might sell me good adult pairs if the price was right and i was buying 3 pairs.... am planning to visit him in the next few days, will tell you guys how it goes and if possible will post pics as i have a digital camera.

Cheers,
-Ryan

[angel12]

Search out RandalB if you are able he sells Combi meters these measure PH/Conduct and other things might work out cheaper in the long run for you take a look at his link below
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=13;action=display;threadid=8099

HTH

[discus-er]

Hey Angel,
Thanks, that sure does help.
Cheers,
-Ryan