If you breed wilds in tanks .... will the fry be of good quality

[EIHAB83]

Hi guys ... I am thinking like if you breed wild discus in tanks how will the fry look like, will they be 100% LIKE mom and dad or??? or they may have pale colors , plus do they need special care
many thanks

[ping]

Hi,

I know nothing about wild discus .. I dont even have them. :)
Check this out, you might find the answer:
http://www.tecnet.or.jp/~ikeda/page3-breed.html

HTH,
Ronny

[EIHAB83]

Cheers mate

[Tkuemmet]

I dont think any dicus offspring will look 100 percent like mom and dad!

why would they have pale colors ?

[O]

The quality should be the same if not better than the parents(wild fish are not always "perfect" by domestic standards) if all the basic rules are applied - nutirtion, water qality, etc.

O.

[EIHAB83]

Thank you guys

[Jason]

you'll get the good, the bad, and the ugly just like with domestics.

the trick is to grow-out the best ones and breed them back to the parent you liked the best, or the best offspring to each other.....big project but doable.

[Rod]

I agree with jason completely, select the potential breeders very carefully from each generation and eventually you can achieve uniformity in the fry. A worthwhile project ;)

[EIHAB83]

Thank you all guys .... u r all helpfull :)

[Paulio]

you'll get the good, the bad, and the ugly just like with domestics.

the trick is to grow-out the best ones and breed them back to the parent you liked the best, or the best offspring to each other.....big project but doable.


Ditto ;)

[wildthing]

IME you get more of the 'ugly' with F 1 from 2 wilds than you do from domestics, there is much greater genetic variability leading to more size & shape variations.....but a very few will be outstanding

[Abercrombie6202]

First anything that breeds with 2 parents will not be 100% like mom and dad, but be in between. Or they could have there grandparents looks, etc...

[EIHAB83]

Thank you guys for the replies
EIHAB

[jn4u]

"the trick is to grow-out the best ones and breed them back to the parent you liked the best, or the best offspring to each other.....big project but doable."

Well you will get more color full discus. But less robust, fertility discus. Full color discus and pigoen discus not a improvment in discus. In my opinion.

Use the best and do not cross them brother and siter. Or backcrossing etc...

[Jason]

"the trick is to grow-out the best ones and breed them back to the parent you liked the best, or the best offspring to each other.....big project but doable."

Well you will get more color full discus. But less robust, fertility discus. Full color discus and pigoen discus not a improvment in discus. In my opinion.

Use the best and do not cross them brother and siter. Or backcrossing etc...


I have done this twice, with two different types of wilds and have tried alot of outcrossing.
IME selecting the best offspring for size, shape, colour, and health then breeding them back to a parent or too each other did not result in any decay within the bloodline, they got better and better with each generation and more uniform. but you have to grow them all out and select the best.

and please do not take offense, but I don't understand what you mean by
"Well you will get more color full discus. But less robust, fertility discus. Full color discus and pigoen discus not a improvment in discus. In my opinion."

I don't know how you get pidgeons from wild, but selecting "the best" does not always mean selecting full colour discus.

[roger]

Hello All,

Having never bread wilds I can only offer a mixture of what others have to say and my own thoughts on the matter.

It is very true that wild discus bring a large pool of genetic diversity to the table. Thats part of the reason people breed wilds with domestics is to keep a strain getting to shallow of a gene pool. One of the things that I have noticed as have a few other people is that wilds from the same region tend to all look alike. Someone once mentioned why swim to another log to find a mate when you have a good mate at yours.

So if you cross 2 fish from the same region you probably run a good chance of actually dealing with a fairly small trait set and as such have fish that breed somewhat true.

Not many of us have the luxury of getting fish in bunches so your more than likely going to end up with a big mix. From what everyone else always seems to say the F1s from that group are the worst of the lot but with things improving drastically each generation.
Things said to be looked forward to

Slow growing fish
Fish susceptable to gill flukes
Poor colors as a whole


I would probably suggest trying to cross a domestic with a wild and then working with those offspring. Cross something like a domestic RSG with a wild RSG or a SS with a RSG or even a leopard with a RSG. A crossing like that would probably produce more fish of "quality" then just starting out with a pair of wilds.

Peace,
Roger

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Very well said Roger ;)

[jn4u]

Well this is my opinion and I think very alone to think like this. Well if get a group of 20 young wild-caught from tefe. What I want to do is to get a solid blue discus, with out any stress bars or with a solid blue/green colour.

I start to use 10 tefe in the first line and 10 in the second line. Then after some years of inbreeding I need to make some crossing between the lines to get in some new genes. Well after F15 a got the perfect discus in size, colour and without stress bars.

In the first place this is to destroy the fish. That's not an improvement.

This is the general opinion and that what sell. Why don't any breeder tries to keep the natural look in the fish. Try to find a F10 Tefe that look like a wild Tefe. If every breeder would keep the natural look and a large pool of genetic diversity by making lot of out crossing then I would be happy.

In my opinion the discus are already perfect when they comes from the rivers. The first breeders do is to make the stress bars to disappear. "Improve the colour" and the give the fish a new name etc.

My friend calls me crazy when I go nuts over new brown discus or simple green. When they are looking on new hot yellow red spotted. And what the next thing "flashing" discus.

Read this with some irony.

[petedaniels]

jn4u
don't ever change your opinion.
The discus world needs more people like you.
Well said.

pete daniels

Roger, I totally agree with you. Discus are perfect once found in the rivers. I am not a knit-picker for I appreciate all that is living. There is beauty to behold only to the eye holder. I will attempt to purchase wilds only because I want to get the many varieties of Discus found worldwide!

Nice posting, roger. **Fry Girl Angie**

[gang_mary]

Johan,
you are a likable man :)

[brewmaster15]

Hi Angie...
will attempt to purchase wilds only because I want to get the many varieties of Discus found worldwide! You better get alot of tanks! :)

I appreciate the form and shape and beauty of the wilds.. and I appreciate what good breeding programs can produce for domestics which i why I keep both, and cross both.


jn4u-
My opinion on the wild genetics though is that it not as clear cut as many like to think. These fish come from rivers which over flow their boundaries... They come from rivers where different strains interbred. Yes you can breed RSG to RSG and get mostly red spotted greens... But what you over look is the moment you do that ... you have domesticated the wilds you sought to preservethe appearance of.... as you will be the one selecting which fish breed. You may wind up with a RSG that looks like a wild... but it is no different then a red mellon, blue snakeskin or any other fish bred by man in a breeding program. You will have effectively removed natural selection, and repklaced it with human selection....inshort.. domesticated the wild.

have you ever wondered out of all the discus in a river.. How many actually are of a shape and color pattern acceptable to human tastes.. I wonder how many are thrown back.. or into the stew pot because natures Idea of perfection and mans differ greatly.

-al

[FischAutoTechGarten]

that's heavy Al.

[jn4u]

Well my background is as a discus hobbyist. I know it's I fine line between hobbyist and a professional breeder. I know that are a hard "market" out there to have the right colour patterns.

I have some $$$$ discus in my home and this boy come to a visit. His dream is to have this type of discus. Then I tell him I think your dream should be to learn to take care and breed the fish not learn best way to afford an expensive discus.

I have produce all types of colour discus, the only thing i my brain whas to earn $$$$. I visit large breeders and importers. I tell you that a lose more $$$ then earn... ;)

Then you ask your self what happened to the hobby? When did I last time site down to watch the fish. What's wrong with this simple brown or that is not a perfect circle.

Then I started to travel to this small hobbyist around in Sweden. Well 4 years ago I did not know any breeders of wild fish in Sweden, tody i know. There in this small hobby room I find my skilled breeders, I learn more by visit them then by visit large importers, all secretive, locked breeding rooms etc . These home breeders don't produce what the industry best fish. But what a hell.

I started as a hobbyist and got crazy and back again. This doesn't mean that I don't visit Duisburg, large breeders. They are still my friends. But I tell my friend when own a store don't import this colour injected fish, or this crap fish that not can swim.

Today I breed only 100 fish every year. I have more fun and it's like know trying to breed some wild brown. I have never breed this fish from Manderia River. It's my challenge I know lot of other breeders have breed them.

I know that I want be able to sell them to a profit. But the hell make that I made with my last discus feed 80% to the p.altum and keep the rest for my self and change some with my friends. ;D

It's more fun like this. I know this has nothing to do with rest of the forum. I don't want to offend any one only to tell what I think. 8) 8)

[jim_shedden]

jn4u.......... :thumbsup:

jim

[brewmaster15]

Jn4u,
It's more fun like this. I know this has nothing to do with rest of the forum. It has everything to do with this forum.. Thats why this place is here..

Your ideas are not offensive.. I share many of them as I too am just a hobby breeder.

:)

keep those thoughts... and enjoy the fish.. take the time to watch them, and breed what you like to see... not what the current "market" demand is.. Is may not make any money.. but you'll be happy in your hobby.

:)

take care,
al

[Jason]

Johan,

more power too you, looks like we took the same path with our hobby, I love plain old browns-can't give them away, so I import. sad reality, I'm not trying to make a living, just raise the bar in N.America and pay for my own addiction.

then of course promote and educate!