a question about wilds

[J Searcy]

I almost feel stupid asking this.

Ive had discus for about a year now and I absolutely love them. Recently I got a beautiful little brown based discus with a heckel stripe. Initially I was attracted to the exaggerated colors and patterns of discus, but now Im starting to appreciate the wilds.

My question is, Im having trouble distinguishing a blue from a green from a red etc when often their body coloration looks basically the same to me(no Im not color blind :P). Is there some identifying characteristic Im missing?

Thanks.

[DarkDiscus]

A very good question!

And I'm NOT the guy to answer it. IMHO some blues look like greens, some browns look like greens and some greens look like browns.

I definitely prefer wilds though!

If anyone can make a thorough answer to this question, I'd love to hear it as well!

John

[Tad]

J. Searcy,
I am going to try and answer your question the best that I can ;D

First of all to address your question on how to distinguish the various "colors/types" being blue, brown or green.

There are only two types of wild discus;
1. Symphysodon Aequifasciata; Which includes the greens, blues and browns
2. Symphysodon Discus "heckel"

If a hobbyist would look at wilds in this manner it would be keeping it as simple as possible and would eliminate the confusion of what a green, blue or brown, really is in the simplist form.
Oliver Lucanus, and myself have had discussions on two different occassions on this topic of classifications and I quote the following he shared with me today;

"Certainly fish with red spotting are typical greens, even if just a few spots. They are the western populations. Most other fish in the stores are blues, The browns are the extreme eastern populations and only rarely in the hobby. We should really try to get away from classifying our fish by green blue brown because it means little."

Red Classification;
There is no red classification for discus and again I quote from Oliver;

"What people call reds are for the most part what we should call blues, and in some rare cases browns (less than 10%)"

I would hope that this response will help you and others with the classification of wilds. I agree it is sometimes,very hard to distinguish the 3 types, in the Symphysodon Aequifasciata classification.

food for thought: Curipera are considered the reddest of the wilds and are classified as Haraldi ;D

HTH,
Tad

[J Searcy]

Tad

Thanks for the great info! It makes a lot more sense now that I know to think of them regionally. I think a nice tank of wilds will be my next big discus challenge.

Josh

[Tad]

J. Searcy,
To put it even more simply ;D....Wilds are either Heckels or Aequifasciata

regards,
Tad

Hi all,

Now I am confused ;D (but again, that’s easy to achive lol)

Quote"We should really try to get away from classifying our fish by green blue brown because it means little"

That is like: we should not say BMW, Lada, Mercedes, Buick.
We should just call them: Car
or for better reasoning: SUV, Hatchback, Limousine.

Ronald ???

We cannot compare discus to Car. Cars are being built by a known manufacturers with known parts and origin. You cannot cross a BMW with a Ford. Hybirdization often taking place at the lower basins of the Amazon river system where flooding occurs every summer. Most fish caught in that area are natural crosses with many different kind of fish immigrate from the other area. Some fish dealers had fish escaped from their holding tanks shipped from different area ready for export. It really hard to tell what type of fish they are and it's best to name them from the area they are caught. JMHO. Try to name the fish I post is next to impossible. He was caught in the Nhamunda area basin. It is a cross between Heckel, Red, Blue and green.
Tad: Good job to clarify the difference. Now I have some Autums. They are even harder to breed than the Curiperas.
Jimmy

[Jason]

until the dna mapping is done I highly doubt there is 4 types of discus....maybe not even 2 types different enough geneticly to be classified as 2 species

[Paulio]

I am inclined to agree with Jason. Heckel are clearly different but different enough to be an sp of its own? Probably not. Then to compound the problem people start using location names, tribal names etc to name fish only confusing the issue more.

Paul

[Tad]

Jason and Paulio,
I also would be inclined to agree with your observation in that genetically there is not much difference...however there is always the confusion associated with the Aequifasciata "classification" and its 3 types.....Heckels are clearly distinguished by their prominent bar.....as a whole, blues, greens and browns are much harder to identify for the hobbyist. My approach to distinguish is at its simplist form when identifying wilds, thus the two classificatons.

As for the catchy names...we somewhat do that already with the domestics...especially with the PBs etc....again I agree adding to the constant confusion.

best regards,
Tad

Quote: "Cars are being built by a known manufacturers with known parts and origin."

That is right. But what if someone in Europe sees a Japanese car without any markings? What do you think the chances are that the guess is right. Especially with someone who does not follow car's that closely.


Quote: "You cannot cross a BMW with a Ford" Really !!!!! ;D

I understand that there is a huge problem Identifying Wild crosses.

But why is that? If I can identify a domestic breed because it is clear (color, patterns and so on) what it is, there seems to be no prob. Just because the normal hobbyist and allot so called experts are not able to identify a Wild cross does not mean they should all be put in one bag. There are ppl out there, which have the ability to identify wilds. Why is that? Are they just lucky or con's or braggers with no merit? If one uses the location as help to identify a wild, that’s fine also. But changing a name because of the location?

Let's get real here. Most of us are not even able to tell where domestic strain comes from what (referring to breeding). And then to expect to follow that with the wilds?
I am not saying that one is dumb or anything like that, it is just normal that the average hobbyist does not know those things.

A dna test would proof what? That there is one Sp. with alot of sub sp. ? Wich brings us back to point 1.

Unless the knowledge is acquired, the identifying of other animals of the same specie can also be difficult at some times.

I am not trying to stir something up here !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ronald

[J Searcy]

wow I wasnt trying to stir anything up either :-[

At the very least I dont feel like Im absolutely in the dark anymore.
Is there a resource out there that breaks up the wilds into the major regions? A photo archive or anything?

Thanks again.

Josh

[Tad]

J Searcy

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=22;action=display;threadid=6716;st art=45

See post #54

HTH,
Tad

[Jason]

the only difference I can see between heckels and non-heckels is slight behavior differences and nutritional requirements.

also they require more enviromental stimulus than non heckel wilds to induce spawning.

I fully beleive all discus came from heckels, with browns and blues being more closer related and greens being the most distant, geographicly and geneticly.

....but what do I know.......I cant even spell :P

[Paulio]

The Curipera is a prime example of why location names only confuse things more. It is my understanding that this fish is from the Alencer area and named for a tribal people in the area. On top of that a few sources have told me (no I wont leave names) that they have never seen fish of this appearance and/or description in that area at all. Hows that for conclusive description? Understand that I have NOT collected myself but I HAVE had a whole lot of wild DIscus pass through my hands. The fisherman, exporter, importer can put any name they want on the invoice. Doesnt make it real. To me this makes the car comparisson even more applicable. The fish are given more and more exotic names that drift farther and farther from reality. Kind of like car (or any product) manufacturers. Its called marketing. I know I am going to catch heat for this but this is how i see it. I try as best I can to stick to the four original classifications when I sell fish. If you want to give it a name you are more than welcome ;D I just like all the pretty fishies ;)

Paul

LOL Jason,
"....but what do I know.......I cant even spell "

I think that is the only area (miss spelling) I consider myself a expert. ;D

Ronald