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DiscusJeff
10-13-2003, 04:47 PM
I'm looking for normally closed solenoid valves. It must be able to accept water flow in both directions, and be able to handle normal household water pressure. Does anyone know who might carry them?

Thanks

Jeff

McGilly
10-13-2003, 05:15 PM
Hi Jeff
They can be found where I love to shop..... in the trash.
Old discarded washing machines are a great resource that are often overlooked. They have the nc soliniod valve you are looking for, also they all have a peasure switch you can use as a pump actuator or to have your solinoid valve open or close. most have two sets of contacts so you could have the low level points activate the valve to fill your holding tank and when its full shut down and power another line to a timer hooked to your pump to do your W/C 20 some hours later.
Or if you want to spend the bucks a rainbird sprinkler control panel would also do the job. they have all the valves and timers you would need for a large scale operation.

This is on my never ending to do list.


Jeff

FischAutoTechGarten
10-14-2003, 12:33 AM
Washing Machines. That's just good common horse sense. I pulled a few out myself. However, I often get red hats on Ebay so cheap that I've never used the ones from the washer.

Good 120V Red Hat valves can be had on Ebay for about $5 to $10 a piece. I usually look for the guy who is selling a half a dozen or so of them.

DiscusJeff
10-14-2003, 01:38 PM
Peter - What size red hats are you able to get for that price? I'm hoping to get 3/4 ", but they seem to be much more expensive. Is there a specific supplier that you work with?

FischAutoTechGarten
10-14-2003, 03:16 PM
I generally get 1/2" ones on Ebay.

I have 3 or 4 of 1/4" ones that I was going to use for CO2 and the like. However, I don't think I'll use them now.

However, I would like to source a few 3/4" ones myself for drain cycles.
If I find a lot of them @ 3/4" I'll bid on them and sell you a few of them.

Unfortunately, doesn't appear to be much on Ebay this week for RedHats.

ronrca
10-30-2003, 05:31 PM
Hmmm! Im looking for 1" solenoid valves for a decent price! Anyone know where I get can some under $100?

My intend is filling/draining tanks. The pipe Im using is 1" PVC! Any other methods perhaps?

Thanks!

DiscusJeff
10-30-2003, 05:41 PM
The 3/4" ones are cheaper/easier to come by. I'm using 3/4" and using a self priming pump to drain/fill the tanks. The flow is good because the pump keeps the pressure high.

ronrca
10-30-2003, 05:45 PM
Thanks! I actually found what Im looking for! I just have to look in the right place! LOL!

http://www.dripirrigation.com/cgi-bin/SoftCart.exe/dripstor/prodpages/auto.htm?L+drip1+vekc2944+1051139245

$19 for a 1" PVC solenoid valve!

I like that 1" pipe just because I can get a better flow rate! ;)

Of course!!!!!! Home Depot! How can I forget! LOL!

Lance_Krueger
11-14-2003, 01:24 PM
ronrca,
Remember, most of those irrigation valves require water pressure to open up. I looked into irrigation valves, but found nothing that would just open up and let water to drain out of tanks. Not enough pressure from the tank to the valve. Even if it started with enough pressure (i.e. high tanks, or lots of tanks), the pressure would drop as the water lowered in the tanks. I found that solenoid valves or motorized ball valves were the only way to go. But I'm open to any suggestions. ;D
Thanks,
Lance Krueger

ronrca
11-14-2003, 01:29 PM
Really? I didnt know that these valves require pressure to operate! I am under the assumption that its just a solenoid valve that using electric pulses to open/close! I'll have to check into that!

Thanks for informing me! ;)

Lance_Krueger
11-14-2003, 01:42 PM
Ronrca,
Yeah, just go back to your link you posted and look at the specs on that valve you listed. Takes 10-150 pounds of pressure. At most, you might only get a couple of pounds of pressure out of 1" PVC, so the valve wouldn't even open. And as the tanks and pipes drain down, the pressure would be even less. I went into a Ewing Irrigation store and talked to their expert there, and we spent a couple hours going through catalogs and looking at valves there, and he finally gave up. He gave me a bunch of possible options, but when we really thought about it, none would work. At least for not just draining water from overflows in tanks. The only option I've found is large orifice solenoid valves by Berkert that run a couple hundred bucks for a 1" valve. I've thought about washing machine parts, etc., and it looks like the only thing I can come up with is the $200 option. Smaller valves are much cheaper, but would take way too long to drain. I actually wanted a 2" solenoid valve, but these are REALLY EXPENSIVE, so I'm down to the compromise of a 1" valve. I ruled out motorized ball valves since the solenoids are supposed to be more reliable, from what an owner of a fire sprinkler company told me.
Lance Krueger

ronrca
11-14-2003, 02:02 PM
Hmmm! I see what you are talking about, 10-150psi! The only thing I dont understand then is why does it use power (DC or AC) to open/close! When I read about the operating pressure (psi) on a solenoid valve, I think of the design pressure that the valve can handle as opposed to operating the open/close of the valve. The power part actually operates the valve (open/close). However, the 'flow control' may sense low pressure and override the power signal! I'll have to test that out I guess!

Using these valves I actually got from:
http://waynesworldangelfish.com/automated_water_changes.htm

;) ;D

I heard you about other solenoid valves! If I have to spend a couple hundred bucks on 1 valve, forget it! So, I'll have to buy one and see what happens!

Thanks!

DiscusJeff
11-14-2003, 02:05 PM
Also the flow will only go one way! I would not mind trying out the motorized ball valves. Anyone know who sells them?

Lance_Krueger
11-14-2003, 02:33 PM
Ronrca,
I really don't know too much of how they work, but from what I understand, these types of irrigation valves use a diaphram to open/close the valve. The water has to have enough pressure to move the diaphram out of the way to get the water buy. I think the electricity is used only to keep the valve closed, then to open it, the electrical current is interrupted, and the pressure of the water gets the water out of the valve.
I think I've read that on Waynes World Angelfish, and from what I remember, they only use these types of valves to fill up water storage barrels from the incoming water line. They are fine if you're hooking them up to fill up something with water pressure. But they don't work in a drain application, unless you wanted to hook up a pump just before the irrigation valve to shoot the water through. That could be an option, but again, you've got more expense with the pump.

DiscusJeff,
I've seen the motorized ball valves at Aquatic ecosystems. But I've been told that they aren't nearly as reliable as Solenoid valves. So I'm not considering them myself, anymore. For the time savings on not having to do water changes, the $200 is not that big of a deal to me personally.
Hope this helps,
Lance Krueger

Lance_Krueger
11-14-2003, 02:52 PM
Another thing, I am planning to drill two holes in each of my tanks, and running two separate lines. One hole will be for my automatic water changing system, where each tank is drilled halfway down, then from a bulkhead, I run an elbow, with 1" PVC to a Tee on the bottom tanks (I have my tanks stacked two high, one above the other) bulkhead to the floor where a PVC will run behind all my tanks. All my tanks in my fishroom will drain into this bottom 1" line. This floor pipe will run one way, and end at the solenoid valve, just before it hits the drain. All of this is gravity flow. I'll have a digital light timer that will turn the solenoid off and on. Then, the second hole drilled in the tank will be set up in the exact same way as the other line, except there will be no solenoid, and will act as an overflow. I will either put this hole at one of the top corners, or if I drill it halfway down, I'll put an elbow and standpipe in the tank to regulate the water level. By running two lines, (one hooked up and regulated by the solenoid valve, and one just an overflow), I'll not have to regulate each valve of incoming water into each tank. Just get it close. Plus, if my solenoid valve ever malfunctions, or there's a power outage before the clean water from my storage barrels gets to the tanks, I'll have the overflows installed which will be a fail-safe to keep the floor dry. This will also allow me to do flushes (if I choose), and even a drip system if I want.
My aged tap water will be heated and aerated, and then a pump on a digital lamp timer will feed the new water to an overhead PVC pipe system, that will use globe valves to put the clean water into each tank. These globe valves are much more accurate than ball valves in adjusting them.
A few more thoughts. I'll be able to put an elbow and standpipe in the bulkhead hooked up to the solenoid line any time I want to take a tank out of the draining process (i.e. when medicating a tank), and close it's globe valve for the new water. Or you could put a ball valve on each tanks drain, but an elbow and standpipe only when you need it will be cheaper.
Just some of my unproven thoughts. Though I will hopefully be able to test this soon, as I get one piece after another done on this project.
Lance Krueger

ronrca
11-14-2003, 03:34 PM
these types of irrigation valves use a diaphram to open/close the valve. Ok! I understand and it makes sense now if they use this method! The power just 'locks' the valves closed or open! Interesting! If that be the case, my plans for auto wc's are toasted! I'll have to redesign or find another affordable valve. I need like 10 solenoid valves for drain/fill operation! Maybe I'll have to make it work with only 2! :( (Maybe I can somehow remove the diaphram! Hehe) ;D

About your draining, I would recommend having a common pipe running along the floor to the drain! This pipe I would size around 2" or the same size as your drain pipes in your house. A 1" drain pipe is ok for draining 1 tank at a time but with more tanks, it will back up and drain really slow plus some tanks will drain faster than others! I would also have each tank drain directly to the common drain pipe to avoid back feeding into other tanks particularly bottom tanks if you have 2 or more shelves!

I like the idea of having the hole drilled in the middle of the tank plus the elbow and stand pipe.

The overflow!
Good idea however here again you will need to size it correctly! This will depend on the incoming gpm! The more gpm, the larger the overflow needs to be to sufficiently overflow to the drain! On my rack system, I have 2 overflows! An 1" main overflow and a 1/2" backup overflow! Ive overflowed my tanks because the 1" pipe could not carry enough water out! Thats where the 1/2" overflow comes in!

If using this top overflow to regulate the water level while filling may be difficult because certain tanks will fill faster than others. However, you do have valves on the incoming which is good but will need constant monitoring when filling!

For every solenoid valve you put in, also install a manual valve (unless the solenoid already has one) just in case the solenoid fails! Make sure the manual valve is in front of the solenoid valve in relationship to the direction of water flow! This way you can not only turn water draining/filling off or on but be able to by pass the solenoid and replace it without having to worry about water running everywhere once the pipes at apart! ;)

Just some thoughts from my experiences! Good luck and keep us posted on the progess! O, yes! Dont forget pics! ;D

Lance_Krueger
11-14-2003, 04:38 PM
Ronrca,
I would think removing the diaphram would make the thing leak. But that's just a guess. There's a guy on the DIY section here, named Tristan, that took some part out of an irrigation valve (which I guess by-passes the need for the pressure), but the draining is very slow.
I was originally going to make the floor PVC 2", until I saw how expensive 2" solenoid valves were. So, then I decided to go 1", since the 1" size solenoid is so much cheaper. I know it will be slow, but should be fairly quick, I would think. If it takes an hour or two to drain, the tanks, I'd be happy with that. The automation is what is making this so difficult. If I didn't need the automation, I could just push the standpipes onto their sides in the tanks, and do water changes that way, but I want water changes to go on while I'm on trips for my business. So the unattended automation is what is causing the expense/difficulty here.
Regarding the overflows, each tank will have an overflow, so I wouldn't think it would be a problem. On this line, I guess I could make the floor line 2" to handle more of the combined draining since I won't have a solenoid on this one. Thanks, good idea you just gave me! ;D
Regarding refill of the tank, I'd just have to get things calibrated with the globe valves. Will be pretty tough at first getting everything done the first time (will take some experimentation, but should be pretty automatic after that. I would think the overflows would only have to handle a few gallons each time, unless I'm doing a flush. I should be able to get at least that close!
Yes, yes, yes, a ball valve just before the solenoid in case I've got to fix or replace it. I forgot to mention that. I am also planning on having a union between the ball valve and the solenoid valve so if I do have to take it off, it will be easy to do.
Thanks for your thoughts! :D
Lance Krueger

Dave C
11-14-2003, 05:19 PM
Have you thought about skipping the solenoids and just doing w/c by overflowing your tanks? It wastes some water but really simplifies it. Then all you need to do is siphon waste and let the w/c refill the tanks after you're done. I had that working for about 6 months on my tanks. I had a float switch in the holding tank to shut off the pump before running dry. Then I had a solenoid on my water supply to refill the holding tank and another float switch to shut off the water. It worked great unattended. Take a look at Aquatic Ecosystems (http://www.aquaticeco.com/aquatic1v1/index.icl?referer=&eflag=2) for all of this kind of stuff.

Dave

ronrca
11-14-2003, 05:55 PM
The more I think about the psi, the more I think the irrigation valves will stil work! Here is my setup:
- 40G sump with a Mag 950 pump.
- Mag pumps water up to the biofilter (also distribution container)
- The drain T's in the pipe from the sump to the biofiler
- If I put a solenoid valve on the drain, there will be enough pressure because the Mag is pumping the water into the drain rather than gravity
- Fill works the same way with the pump in the storage container pumping water into the sumps

Cool! It may work after all! Whew!

If you want a auto system that will do the water changes unattended, I would go with what Dave suggests! Less to go wrong that way because there is less open/closing! This way you would only need 1 solenoid on the incoming water pipe.

Lance_Krueger
11-14-2003, 08:04 PM
Dave,
Yeah, I've thought about that. Actually, I've read, and reread the pages on your website (the best I've found, mind you) about water changing. Many of the thoughts, and ideas I have came from there. As you said in your writeup on waterchanging, I wanted to totally replace the water, not just mix it and flush good water down the drain. Or at least try to minimize it. But you're right. That would be a very simple system. Would be cheaper, and I'd only have to drill one hole instead of two. Now you've got me thinking again..... ;)
Thanks,
Lance Krueger

Dave C
11-15-2003, 11:11 AM
Thanks Lance. Another advantage of an overflow system is that it's also very safe, much less prone to mechanical failure. That's because there's much less mechanics involved. I found after getting the thing automated it really didn't save much time. There is a specific amount of time you must spend daily to get your tanks clean and fish fed. I have to siphon each morning regardless of automation and after hooking the J tubes onto my tanks and starting a siphon they just remove add'l water if desired. While they're draining I'm siphoning. While the tanks are refilling I'm cleaning Magnum micron inserts and getting food ready. Then I start the refilling of the holding tank(s) and walk away. When they're full the water detector warns me and I shut off the water. All in all I spend about 20 minutes each morning working on about 550g worth of tanks. I do the 180g tank separately later on, after breakfast.

If I was away a lot of the time and I was looking for a way to change water in my absence I'd opt for a drip system to compliment my manual system. That way water would be continuously changed whether I was there or not. Again, it wastes some water but it's so cheap & easy to implement you gotta love it. And you can turn it off when you're home and on only when you're away for an extended amount of time. So maybe a combination of systems is the best way to go. The money you save can buy more fish.

Tristanyyz
11-16-2003, 09:28 PM
Ok Hello people...

I didnt have a chance yet to read all of this thread, and I will, but just some info on this...

I used the irrigation system, its ok but very slow, even with the diaphram taken out, and the flow restrictor removed. It was a good thought tho...and is still usefull if you have 6-8 hours for your tank to drain.

www.harringtonplastics.com click on the on-line catalogue, and look for valve and valve actuators...the one i am specifically interested in is the plast-o-matic blue ball valve with electronic actuator...these things are expensive, but what you are looking for Ronca...this is also my next project.
Regards,
Michael

ronrca
11-17-2003, 12:02 PM
I used the irrigation system, its ok but very slow, even with the diaphram taken out, and the flow restrictor removed. It was a good thought tho...and is still usefull if you have 6-8 hours for your tank to drain.
Slow because it is gravity draining? I can see that! On my rack, I actually have the pumps doing the work instead of gravity! Check out my yahoo album to see what I mean! I have the mag 950 pumps in the sump. When the valve on the drain opens, the Mag 950 will pump out the water in the sump. Right now it only takes a couple of minutes to empty around 40G.

Thanks for the link! I'll check it out! ;)

ronrca
11-17-2003, 03:15 PM
Hmmm! Not sure about those valves! Pretty pricey! :(

Also check out this Canadian site:
http://www.omega.ca/shop/