help discus dying

[westernstar]

I a beginner at this with discus, the other day I noticed that on of my smaller fish was swimming eratic up and down the tank. I lost him a couple of days ago. There were no signs of anything wrong. All levels tested fine. The temp is 87. Now today I got home from work and another one bigger this time is acting the same way. I do water changes every 3 days, I have a 40 gal tank and a quarn. tank of 10 gal. My local pet store is no help at all even though he sold me the fish. I told him what was wrong, he didn't ask me any questions about my fish at all, just handed me "Ampiicillex" said that would help. So like a dummy, I tried it just now. The fish is dark in color for a blue diamond, plus I noticed lately that they haven't been eating as much. Very worried, I have 3 other fish that I don't want to lose. Please help
Julie

[Carol_Roberts]

First line of defense is always clean tank, rinse filter, daily water changes and salt at 1 or 2 tablespoons per 10 gallons (replace salt lost through water changes).

How long have you had these discus?
Have you added any new fish or plants?
Ammonia and nitrIte are zero?
The pH has not crashed?

[April]

hi. have you tested for ammonia and nitrites?
do you have gravel etc in that tank? and other inhabitants? we need to know more.
first thing id do is a large daily wc. and add salt. one tablespoon to each 10 gallons. not sure its good to add the meds he handed you till you know what is wrong. the only possibility is he knew theres an infection hes dealt with and has used that med. but.....you need to know what is wrong.
doesnt sound like disease to me unless they are huddling and dark and slime coat on all of them.
also...did you add new ones lately to that tank? do you have extra sponges or filters you can add that are cycled?
please give us more info.

[westernstar]

Thanks for the help,
I have owned 3 discus for 2 months, and bought 2 more 3 weeks ago, I quarn. the two discus before adding them to my big tank. All was well, I thought. I do have rock in the bottom of the tank. The ones left in the big tank, they are huddled together and very dark in color, and the one that already died, I did feel slime in the fish after it died when I discarded it.

[Carol_Roberts]

Are the new fish sick and dying too or just the old ones? There is lots of bad stuff going around right now.

[westernstar]

The one that died was one of the new ones, and the one sick now is one of the old ones. I will do wc in the morning as I have already given meds tonite, I did a water change yesterday

[westernstar]

I also use RO water

[Carol_Roberts]

. . . not straight RO - you mix it with tap or add minerals to it, right?

After 3 weeks in quarantine I'm surprised both populations of discus became sick.

[westernstar]

Oh no! I use straight RO

[westernstar]

Carol,
I know its getting real late and its a weekday also. I thank you for the responses you given me, I'm a real dummy about this. Like I said my local pet store is no help at all. The only thing I've learned from is off the net.
I will check back in around 10:00, if not a message, I will check first thing in the morning.
Julie

[jeep]

Sorry to jump in, but since Carol's gone...

I would add tap water asap...

Straight RO water is very bad for fish...

Brian

[April]

i agree with jeep. add some tap. they cant live in straight ro and your ph may be crashing. also add the salt.
if they are huddling and dark there is a chance you introduced a virus...salt will help with that also. but....could be the water. usually the new ones would be the carriers and not get sick and the old ones will. . id add at least 2 tablespoons per 10 gallons of water.

[westernstar]

Thanks for the extra help, I need it bad. I live in the country and on a well that is terrible. That's why I already had a RO.
I hate to ask, now what.

[westernstar]

My well tested when I bought the place said:
Not for human or animal comsuption, or even plant life. even though my house plants and horses are fine.

[jeep]

I would still add some tap water. Maybe at least 25% tonight. In the future, try mixing 50% RO and 50% tap, or find a reading you're comfortable with and figure the percentages from there.

I would still add salt like April said...

Good luck and ask more ? if you need to...

Brian

[westernstar]

I will, and I already added salt this afternoon. I will add more with the water change. I hope my well water won't kill them all by morning.

[Carol_Roberts]

Do you have a water softener? What comes out of the kitchen tap? It might be safer to buy several gallons of mineral water from the store to add to your tank for right now until you know your tap water is safe. If you are using straight RO you have no buffers to keep the pH from crashing. What is the pH in your tank?

If your water truly is not fit for animal or human consumption it is not fit for discus either. It that case you will need to add RO right or some other product that contains essential minerals. What does your water contain that makes it unfit? Iron, nitrAtes? giardia?


Maybe this is simply a water problem and not a disease?

[jeep]

True. I assumed your water was ok to drink but maybe very hard.

Brian

[Nightowl]

It may well be a condition resultant of poor water.....mineral water from the store is a great idea! JMO, but I would lower the temp. a bit to say 84f....higher temps aren't always a benifit when fish are stressed. Also, try to stabilize things and not have the ph bouncing all over the place. good luck J.T.

[westernstar]

I added some of my well water last night to both tanks about 10% each. This morning, he's still alive and doesn't seem to be to stressed out. He seems to have more control over his swimming, and not darting as yest this morning.
When I had the well tested, they said it was bad at the lab. They said it was loaded with Magnesium and iron and a number of other things. I live in Wyoming and our water in this state is rough. To many minerals in it.

The PH always read the same 6.8 to 7.2, I do have a water softner that is hooked up for all the water in the house. The RO is hooked up seperately in the kitchen.

[jeep]

There once was a thread about not using straight RO water but I can't seem to find it. Very interesting though...

Since you're using RO water, you probably know not to use straight softened water as well...

There's several formulas here for reconstituting RO water, but in the mean time RO Rite, by Kent Marine, is a great additive for RO water.

As long as there's no toxic substances in your well water, I think you'll do fine by mixing your RO and well water. Maybe in the 75/25 range...

Glad they seem to be a little better.
Brian


P.S. Continue to monitor them. This does sound like a water quality issue, but then again, 3 weeks is not really long enough to effectively QT new arrivals even if you bought them from the same store. LIke Carol said, there's a lot of nasties floating around out there right now...

Another P.S. Sorry, you posted your results about the water report while I was posting. I didn't see that one. I think RO Rite is the way to go...

[jules]

Magnesium and iron are constituents of hard water. They are minerals picked up when the water passes through the ground etc. to your well. Hard water won't harm you or your fish, iron will turn your tub, sink... brown and corrode your fixtures. Your "unsafe for human/animal consumption" is likely due to high quantities of coliform or e-coli in your water(not sure if you are aware of what happened in Walkerton, Ontario with e coli in drinking water from manure) I live in a rural area with hard well water and alot of coliform. I use a water softener and UV to sterilize the water. I do not use this water for my Discus, as they cannot live in high concentrations of salt or sterile water. I have used the hard water directly from the well (KH 14, GH 16, PH 7.4) mixed with Distilled Bottled Water without a problem. Just some info from someone else with undesirable Discus water.

Julie

[April]

glad they are doing better. for comparison....my wateris 30 ms which is close to ro water right out of the tap. i get crashes very easily unlessi buffer my water. and if i dont add kent ro right.....i will not get good growth. as our water is minearal poor. i add one teaspoon per 10 gallons .
there are recipes also...if you can get the ingredients to make your own. but for now id just try and get kent ro right.

[westernstar]

Thanks for all your input, I did notice this morning that there was this slimey white stuff on the plastic plant. After reading on this site, am I right to believe this was poop?
I have never noticed any poop anywhere, not even coming from their bodies. They were eating beefheart like crazy, could they be constapated? Where do I buy the RO Kent product?

[westernstar]

I forgot to mention, I do use Algone in both tanks, should I remove this while I'm doing meds or untill the problem clears up?

[jeep]

Can you give a little more detail on the slimey plant stuff? Does is look like something stringy that just got hung up or is kind of a slimey film?

If you can't get RO Rite at your LFS, you can get it at Big Al's, Fosters and Smith or just about any other on-line fish store. It's much cheaper on-line!



I forgot to mention, I do use Algone in both tanks, should I remove this while I'm doing meds or untill the problem clears up?

I wouldn't use it at all. Discus just like clean water in a BB tank...

Brian

[westernstar]

What is a BB tank? Stupid here, lol.

Also the slime stuff, looked like someone blew there nose, or like a luggie that someone spit up. Really it looked like a mans sexual relief. " you know stuff " It wasn't in there when I put him in last night

[westernstar]

I think the stuff floated by and hung up on the plant

[Carol_Roberts]

BB = bare bottom.

The slimy stuff could be strips of slime coat or muscus excreted by the stressed discus.

Don't add anything to the tank except dechlorinated water and RO right or mineral water.

Get the water squared away and hopefully the discus will get better.

[westernstar]

I got home from work and still all is well. I will do another water change tonight, should I still add the "Ampicillex" and the salt? Maybe the ampicillex was what worked, or me adding my well water??
Julie

[Carol_Roberts]

IF pH crash was the problem the well water helped. Be careful with the ampicillen - it may kill the good bacteria in your filter.

[westernstar]

how do I know if the PH crashes, everytime I took a reading it always said the same thing.

[Carol_Roberts]

It is very hard to get a pH reading in straight RO water. Now that you have added some of your well water what is the pH in the tank?

[westernstar]

Carol,
The reading for the ph now is 7.2 to 7.8

I've done the water change after I read it.

Also, I will be airrating the water over nite, and tommorow I will do a 50% water change with half and half of well water and the RO. Or maybe will do 50% with 10% of it with my well water.

Thanks again for all your help, I would now what to do without this site, it has helped me alot. And thank god, my little one is still doing ok so far tonight.

[Tristanyyz]

Hi,

I think that slime you found on your plant should be investigated further. I think that likely the slime is a poop by a fish that has Hexamita. Watch your fish closely and if you see this again you will need to treat the tank with Metronidozole, known as Hexamit at the fish store.

When I treat for Hex, I increase the temperature to around 92F, and I do two treatments per day of 500mg/10 gallons of water. Treat for 3 days, and leave the temperature at 92F for a week after the treatment. you may want to get an accurate 3 digit digital thermometer to make sure your heat is correct.

Metronidozole can also be purchased from your local vet in tablet form, and you can crush it with a mortar and pestle, which is much cheaper than Hexamit at the fish store.

I agree that the first step is to sort out your water conditions. I have had that stringy slimy poop stuff on objects in my tank before, and it was Hexamita without a doubt. You can look at some of the archived information in the disease section of this forum for more information.

Hex is common and can be treated easily.
Best of luck to you,
Michael

[westernstar]

Thanks for the help, I did just that. All is well so far and I'm slowly taking plastic plants and gravel out for a bb tank. I will only take alittle with each water change.
Julie

[April]

Julie. glad your getting it all sorted out. and your fish is still going.
:thumbsup:

[westernstar]

Help again please,
The bd was doing ok for a few days and now he's headstanding and he's dark all over except his tail fin, its almost pure white before the fin starts. I've given the ampicillian, and the wc's. My levels are all good. Also one of the juv. is going up and down the tank, like the other started out. This is in my big tank with 2 other fish. I don't know what's going on now? Please help, I may lose the bd tonite.
Julie

[Carol_Roberts]

Your levels are good - that means zero ammonia and nitrIte?

Add epsom salt at 1 or 2 teaspoons per 10 gallons - it may not help, but won't hurt.

[westernstar]

Carol,
Got up this morning, lost bd last night. I've got something real bad. One of the 5" bd is now turning dark and so are his eyes.

ph 6.8 to 7.2
alk 40 to 80
hardness 300 niytrite 0 nitrate 20 to 40
I use a multi test strip. I believe I can't get my water conditions ok. Could the ph level cause this reaction in my fish. Afraid to add more well water because of the hardness level. Should I add a ph increaser to increase the buffer.
I'm afraid I will lose all the fish if I don't do something soon to find the problem.
Julie

[jules]

Sorry to hear about your loss. We all have lost one now and then.
When you test your water, do you stick the test strip directly in the tank?
Removing the gravel has probably stirred up alot of nasties in the tank.

Your water is moderately hard at 18dh. According to Discus Fish by Giovanetti the recommended hardness for Discus Keeping is no harder than 18dh. I think stability is the key to success. I wouldn't add any buffers.

Carol is very helpful and has great advice.

[westernstar]

Jules,
I hold the test strip in the tank water. I haven't removed all the gravel yet, just alittle at a time with wc's. I did a 50% wc after the last post with well water. This brought KH up to 120-180, PH 7.8, GH 300. With adding this my bd is calming down and breathing better, not darting all over the tank. He had tried to jump out of the tank this morning.
My well water reads:
PH 7.2-7.8
KH 300
GH 300
I was wondering if I could try using this water straight without any ro, or do I need ro to decrease the GH.
Thanks for the help,
Julie

[Carol_Roberts]

40 - 80 ppm alk should be fine for discus. 20 - 40 ppm nitrAte is not. Does your well water contain nitrAte?

Why don't you mix 50% well water with 50% RO water.

I honestly do not know what is wrong with your fish. It could be disease or could be bad water (toxins, heavy metals). Your pH is not the problem if it is between 7.2 and 7.8 or even 8.4

[jules]

I would assume the test strip is embedded with some kind of a chemical, I wouldn't stick the strip directly in the tank. Take the water out and test it separately.

I have purchased Discus from the LFS and I usually end up disappointed. Quite often I think the breeders sell their duds to the pet store and to less knowledgeable fish keepers. These are salespeople wanting to make a sale and speak less than the truth.

[ronrca]

Julie! Hang in there! Im quite confident that you will be able to figure it out!


Should I add a ph increaser to increase the buffer.
I guess the first thing is no more adding stuff to your tank except water! Hardness and ph are better left alone. The most important aspect in keeping discus is stable, consistant water parameters all the time.

About the dis-comfort and dis-stress that may have been caused by a ph crash could very well cause disease. :( Im sorry to have to say that however we need to concentrate on getting your water parameters sorted out first. If we start adding to many varibles, too many things are go out of control quickly. One thing at a time! Soon you will see why patience is a virtue in this hobby! ;) ;D

[westernstar]

Thanks for the help, my big bd is looking much better today. His eyes are almost back to normal. I need to switch this now to the water work section as I'm pretty sure now its a water problem.
Thanks all,
Julie