Buying Discus that have been hormoned

[bernie82]

I have been told be Discus keepers who have been to Asia that many of the Discus breeding farms very openly sell fish that have been hormoned as well as fish that haven't. Buyers choice. When 3 inch juviniles come in from Asia with full body color it's a good bet they have been hormoned.
What is the down side of buying Discus that have been hormoned? If I do buy some very colorful 3 inch juvi's and they keep their color as they mature, is that an indication that they have not been hormoned.
Will hormoned discus grow to full maturity as well as non hormoned ones? Will they reproduce as readily as non hormoned fish? Are hormoned fish acceptable at the shows? Why is feeding color flakes which have dye or other color enhancing ingredients any different than using hormones?
Is hormoning discus to enhance their color something that we should sweep under the rug and not openly discus on this forum?

[henryD]

Bernie,

It is necessarly a taboo issue. Just something that has been talked about and reopened and talk over and over again. If you use the search function I am sure you will find all of your questions answered.

Henry

[bernie82]

Hello Henry. I did do the search on "hormones" as you suggested and aside from two posts by me, I found nothing of value. Since you must have gained a lot of knowledge about the use of hormones on Discus on this forum, perhaps you would be so kind as to respond to my questions?

[henryD]

Ok bernie just for you...

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=14454;st art=msg149659#msg149659

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=11;action=display;threadid=13479;s tart=msg139981#msg139981

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=21;action=display;threadid=10585;s tart=msg110361#msg110361

That was just the beginning.......

Too many links to post all of them. Play around with the search tools you will be surprise. Or do you can read all of the post. ;D

[bernie82]

Thanks Henry. I looked at the 3 threads you suggested. Other then seeing something about "CR6" whatever that is, there really wasn't much there, especially for a forum like this. I get the feeling that nobody wants to talk about it. You sure didn't. You spent more time sending me to places to read about then it would have taken you to answer my few questions. I've heard that it can cause the fish to become infertile. I've heard that if they were hormoned the color would soon fade. I'd like to get some real details about it that meet the standards of this forum. Some of the greatest Discus keepers in the world particpate here. What's up guys?

[Ryan Smith]

Bernie,

This topic has been talked about heavily on the board. Some discus are color-fed to enhance their colors, some are hormoned. There are some Asian breeders (probably not all) that have both a "hormoned" and "non-hormoned" price list.

Small discus aren't usually much to look at, especially things like snakes or red turks which are mostly brown until several months of age. So it's no wonder that these fish are easier to sell when they're hormoned to be colorful.

I have heard many different claims as to side effects but because I am not an expert I cannot say as to which ones are true and valid, and which may not be. I have heard that some hormones can cause infertility, and I hear that some do damage to a fishes' liver. I suppose it depends on the type of hormone being used and how it is administered.

I'm not sure why people take offense when someone posts a link on this board. Sometimes it is easier to read what has already been said than to rehash a conversation that has been beaten to death. No one is skating around the issue, no one is afraid to answer it. It has been talked about plenty of times before and it is well known that a lot of the discus on the market now are hormoned.

Your questions are hard to answer because a lot of factors are involved. How heavily were the fish hormoned, what methods were used, etc? Some hormoned fish may grow into regular, breeding adults... some may not. Some may have health issues, some may seem fine. Some may keep their color, some may fade. It really just depends.

Ryan

[henryD]

Bernie,

I am not skating around the issue here. It is just that I don't like to pass on information that I don't have first hand knowledge of. Like I said this has been talked about in lenghts from people in the know. I have been keeping discus since January. Not a very long time in my opinion. There is enough bad information out there without me passing on more of it. So instead of quoting or paraphrasing them. I sent you a bunch of links you could read and make your own conclussions.

Henry

[korbi_doc]

;D ;D Ok, Henry & Ryan, please don't take this as a criticism, I agree with both of you 'bout the search. & I've tried incessantly to use it on this forum. Unfortunately, I wind up frustrated, cuz even when I use a title that I know was posted as such, get zero results. I find this search engine on this site worthless, & have tried to make it work, but I wonder why its so poor, even when I enter known parameters including authors, JMHO, Dottie ;D

[brewmaster15]

Hi Dottie,
The search software on this site is actually very accurate... and thats its probelm.. It is too accurate and everything has to be identical for a hit.

Read this thread...
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=16;action=display;threadid=7504

I use the search engine all the time. It works fine once you figure out how to set the parameters. Unfortunately we have no choice with search engines and this software , it is what they made it to be.


Hth,
al

ps for more help.. drop me an IM and I'll walk you thru it...


Bernie,
This Hormone issue is as stated above a well discussed topic on the boards. I Used to believe that all imported fish were hormoned and thats why they were so brightly colored. I believe now that I was wrong . Hormones are far too expensive for routine use.... and most breeders have acccess to color enhancers that are derrived from natural pigments... for example many reds That are used are also used in our salmon industry to make the flesh pink.. These are still expensive but far more economical and the coloration lasts longer.Many are antioxidant based and considered beneficial by experts in teh nutrition field.

Like Henry I believe there is far too much misinformation on this topic. There is nothing,IMO, wrong with
adding a color enhancer to the diet, these pigments must be added to their diet or the fish would never have any color. Fish do not have the ability to synthesis pigments like reds... These are solely taken in from their diet as they are made mostly by plants and invertebrates. . Commercial foods that have them added are doing what commercial foods are meant to do.... mimic natural foods.
And the depositing of these pigments in the fish is to cells that evolved in the fish for that very purpose.

There is no similarity between hormone treating a fish and feeding a fish a diet that is enriched with pigments that it is able to utilize for coloration.

People in general really need to take the time to learn about how fish actually get their color in the first place...Pigments are deposited like little color droplets in the into special cells designed for that purpose... Feeding these pigments enables that to happen... The amount of pigment that is added to the cells is largely a functionof how much is consumed... but adding hormones can drastically increase that.... as the hormones trick a juvenile fish into thinking its an adult... and in an adult fish the coloration is used for breeding...Its this physiological change that is the main reason hormones are bad to use.. a 2-3 inch discus laying eggs because it thinks its an adult, this can seriously harm the longevity of sa fish .....The coloration itself is not the problem..

Hormone treated and color fed are very different.

hth,
al

[OEG]

Brew thanks for the clearing up of somethings,I also beleive that color feeding must be done to some fish to get any color out of them. The one thing im not sure about is that you say its too expensive to hormone, I dont know about you, but I have seen the pricelists of some breeders from overseas and a 2 to 3 inch fish is sold at 100 to 150 dollars per, now if you get a small batch of 150 fry and lets say 100 are good and there sold 150 each 3 inch15,000 dollars. I think that, that would pick up the cost of hormone. I also think that there are people who know way more about this in this board than I would, and I would love to hear there opinion on it. Im not bashing or condoning this stuff just think that the ones who do hormone know more about it than we do, who dont hormone, I also beleive that there is someone somewhere on this board who has done it before and I would love to hear from them what exactly it does to a fish, possitives and negatives alike.Thanks JMOP
Oscar DDD

[CARY_GLdiscus]

ALL SMALL SPOTTED FISH ARE HORMONED AND COLOR FED AT THE SAME TIME!

its done with CR-6 a mix of methyl testosterone for blue +
Carophyll pink for red. Both are mixed into dry feed and fed to the discus. If anyone else claims other then that like carrot juice, nature rose ETC.. They are a dam lie!

IME the effects are damage to the internal organs and a weaked immune system. most will die soon after a year. some may live longer if lucky.

I believe some will live long healthy lives aslong as the treatment was not over used! Why is this Done? Because most spotted Discus Do not and will not ever breed true! this method is used to grade the $ discus from the rest!

hth
Takecare
Cary Gld!

[brewmaster15]

Hi Oscar,
heres a post I tried to get going a while back.. Theres some good info on hormones in it.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=8;action=display;threadid=1292;sta rt=msg13909#msg13909

Don't get me wrong about the use of Hormones Though, I believe they are still used, but I just don't think that they are used to the extent that Imports are made out to be .

Color feeding is far more economical, and This is business. In your example you would think that the dollar values here make it feasible, but how many breeding pairs do these breeders have? and how much Hormone would they need to use... and how fast would the colors fade.. An exporter selling high end fish at those prices would cut their own throats in the very short term. I actually think theres a greater chance that the low end , low grade fish going to the local fish shops and wholessalers would be hormoned.. as the buyers here notice color foremost... JMO
-al :)

[bernie82]

Now we're getting into it Guys. thanks for the great feed back. Cary, I take it that you don't hormone the fish you breed, right? How does it feel when you take you fish to a show and have to compete with other breeders that are probably hormoning theirs? I understand that you're an agent for Roy's fish from Singapore. Are you sure that the fish he sends to you are not hormoned?
I believe that most of the Discus keepers on this sight derive most of their pleasure by raising and breeding their fish, not buying a beautiful fish that will never reproduce. We're not art collectors. If we were, we'd buy some of those gorgeous hormoned fish, preserve them, and hang them on a wall.

[brewmaster15]

I agree with cary on the spotted fish... ist very likely for the reasons that he said...

when I posted...The amount of pigment that is added to the cells is largely a functionof how much is consumed... but adding hormones can drastically increase that.... as the hormones trick a juvenile fish into thinking its an adult... and in an adult fish the coloration is used for breeding...Its this physiological change that is the main reason hormones are bad to use. I was referring to CR6. The hormone component , testosterone.. increases the uptake and deposition of the red pigment...Carophyll pink. This pigment by itself is harmless though and is the pigment i was referring to in my salmon industry example.
The combined effect woudl show spots at an earlier age and allow the exporters to grade fish.

hth,
al

[bernie82]

Let's face it. Selling Discus is a big business and in business supply and demand dictates price. What could be better for a commercial Discus breeder than to produce gorgeous fish that won't reproduce?

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Cary, I take it that you don't hormone the fish you breed, right? How does it feel when you take you fish to a show and have to compete with other breeders that are probably hormoning theirs? I understand that you're an agent for Roy's fish from Singapore. Are you sure that the fish he sends to you are not hormoned?

Hi Bernie,
Ya I know What You Mean! Me and Roy Cry about it all the time. Howeve we refuse to use this method on are discus. color comes in time ;)

[brewmaster15]

Bernie,
What could be better for a commercial Discus breeder than to produce gorgeous fish that won't reproduce? I do not believe this line of thinking. Most of the stock that breeders in the USA are working off of was imported whether they admit it or not. I see lots of breeders doing just fine with their own spawns using these imported fish.

The only discus that I have noted a probelm with are spotted.. and I have tried to bring this to the boards attention before,,many times,.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=8246;sta rt=msg87673#msg87673
...

and I believe the reason is partly hormone and partly bad genetics and too much in breeding, imo.

-al

[zoids]

Bernie82,

I can honestly say i DO NOT send cary hormoned fishes.

I show you a picture of fishes that were sent to cary at 2" prior to shipment.

Roy

[CARY_GLdiscus]

And here is a pic of the spotted snakes now!

[OEG]

Hey Cary the only spots i see are on youre tank.lol
No but seriously thats what there supposed to look like I believe that Zoids,Sly and Cary all have great integrety and we all know it. Those are beauties nice high bodies and small eyed.
Oscar DDD

Let me make a statement and hopefully won't get kill by other posters. I've done experiments on Hormones for over 10 years. Steriod and glands from animals. I've done it all. If skillfully used. It's a great benifit for both sellers and buyers and will not harm the fish in controlled dosage but will also bring out the best vibrant color of the fish. It takes time and effort to acheive that. Most sellers do not have the patience and time for their merchandise not pets as we see it. If apply skillfully, it will not harm the fish but improve fertility and production of eggs. Only hobbyist can affort to do that. Not commercial breeders in mass production.
Jimmy

[OEG]

Jimmy, for you to come out and say that youve used them is something I commend in you I like to have someone tell me the truth and as I see it if youre way works for you then more power to you. Ive only been at this for a little while so I am no expert but what i do know is that theres always room for improvement wether it be within the fish or with my own knowledge.So any think i can learn is good and there will always be room for change.
Oscar DDD

[bernie82]

Hello Brew and thank you Roy. I'm not implying that all imported fish are hormoned, Brew. I just learning about hormoning myself. I'm only repeating what I've heard so far, That most hormoned fish will not reproduce. I was considering hormoning but I want to check with the forum and get opinions before I did it.
I bought some San Merah from Mike (diskman) at one inch and now they're about 3 inches (about 5 months old) but still haven't developed much color. I can't sell them until they color up. How sweet it would be to bring out their color and sell them. They have beautiful shape and probably will develop into great fish.

[henryD]

Bernie,

It seems like you have more experience then you are letting on. You mentioned that you were going to hormoned. So please share how you were going to do this? Where did you get the hormone? What type and how are you going to administer it? Have you done this before? What was the result? I would love to get a first hand account of it.

Henry

[brewmaster15]

Hi Bernie,
It probably would have been best to say that was your reason for posting in the beginning. :) I would not reccomend using hormones on a fish to sell them. There is far too many things that could happen..

If you determined that Hormones could safely be used, and used it to artificially color those fish early...would you honestly tell your customer that they were treated like that and stand by them if the fish dies prematurely or spawns at a rediculously small size...
and if you do. use the hormones to do this...You will be perpetuating the probelm instead of educating what a non-hormoned fish should look like.

I personally commend Cary and Roy for their determination to not use these things,,,, and I think most would buy their fish. I would and do! ;D

Lastly theres the legal issue. In the USA most of these hormones are highly regulated... and some are highly illegal.

My advice... sell them as they are.... If they have nice body , shape, eyes etc... they will be bought by Discus enthusiasts that know what the real deal is.

hth,
al

[Jeff]

This is a topic I usually stay away from because of all the controversy associated with it. Since Jimmy has brought up the subject that maybe they are not bad I will share what I witnessed with my own eyes in Malaysia. I saw several breeding pairs that were hormoned and successfully raising fry. That is a big statement to make. The questions then are how much hormone? What hormones? At what ages was it given? For how long was it administered? These questions I don't have the answers for.

I believe with out any reservation too much and it is damaging to the fish. I have no idea how much to administer to the discus without having either short term or long term effects to the discus. So I think its better off for me not to play with it. If someone has the time and wants a project I believe there is a lot to be learned here that we don't know.

One question I have is in regards to life span. Actually I think I’ll make a poll of it.

So at this time I'll say no to hormones, but I'm always opened minded and would like to learn more if they can be used successfully with repeated results.

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Well said Jeff,


IMO it can be used sucsessfully like jimmy states! But again how much is to much and would anyone care to state this in writeing? And is hormoning a bad discus to make it a good discus the right thing to do just to make a sale? I say ya if You want to sell it! THATS WHY ITS DONE right? People want color. Am I wrong?

hth
Cary gld!

P.S I have also breed hormoned discus sucsessfully IMO

People will never know the truth of what's behind the door of each breeder. The turth is a breeder can never compete and even survive in this cut throat business if they don't use some secret ingredients in their food. Many top world renounced breeders use them and also preaching non-hormoned discus at the same time. I am a medical personel and a multi-million dollars facility to test what the ingredients in their food they gave me to try out. I found nothing but hormone. I will not elaborate any further from this point. Any medication including hormone has their value if used corretly. Not all apples are rotten if you know where to pick them. Make up or no make up. It all depending on the magazine editor. I preper to look at beautiful pic of a model from the magazine but not the real person.
Jimmy.

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Great Note Jimmy,
to end this mess ;D

[brewmaster15]

I'm sorry guys I have to take an opposite stand here.. To use Hormones to speed up the natural coloration of a fish is wrong. You might as well inject dye into them for color. I will not knowingly buy a hormone treated discus.

Using hormones to treat an illness is one thing, But to use hormones to turn an immature fish into a mature fish to sell them is wrong. Yes you can breed them... maybe.. for a year.. 2 years they'll live.. but who knows how long., and who knows how many will be sterile or runted out of the group.


This is a personal decision I make. I am opposed to hormones in my food as well. I have work experience with hormones too and know the good and bad associated with them. These things should only be used in the hands of experts, and not for ornamental fish. I am very aware that they are used... but I will not use them... and I will not knowingly buy a fish that has been treated with them.

I wait for my fish mature naturally..and will continue to do so , If being a commercial seller meant I had to hormone treat my discus.. I would just sells wilds, and your plain jane... red turqs, blue diamonds, etc. thats just how I feel.

Don't mean to put a negative onto anything positive posted here about hormones...but without all the info as to how much is used, duration, and which ones to use... This sends a message that i have probelm with.

take care,
al

A good breeder will use hormone to color up and pick out the best junvenile fish for their best customer. Not hit and miss method which can waste a lot of money in shipping,not counting the effort and time raising the fish to maturity. Just my 2 cents.
Jimmy.

[brewmaster15]

Jimmy I recognize that, and know why they do it, But the question is where is that "good" breeder months down the road when the fish is stunted, sickly, sterile or prematurely breeding?

From the point of view of the seller..hormones are great if they can do as you say... but what about once they get to the buyer?

I pointed out a post in this thread where I called attention to leopards. I will make the point again.. for all the numbers of spotted fish sold in the past 2 years... Where are all the fry? and where are all the nice big adults grown out by the buyers? I'm sure there are a few...but would you not expect more?

just my 2 cents here as well,
al