help interpreting test results ?

[sstainback]

Hello all:
I am hoping someone can help me interpret the Hardness test results I am getting and educate me a little on water chemestry. I thought I understood a little from the archives here, but I just received my new test kit and am lost. ??? ??? ???

I have an old Hanna DiST WP 1 hand-held TDS tester. The tester and the test solution are both about 3 years old, so I know it is not too accurate, but assumed it was at least in the ball park.

Using the meter, I am getting a reading of about 160 ppm from my aged water.

I just received a new Hagan KH/GH test kit and did both tests.

For General Hardness (GH), I get a blue reading with the first drop. It should start with pink and gradually go blue as I add drops and get to the proper level. I read this as means I have less than 20 ppm General Hardness.

For Carbonate Hardness (KH), I get a color change from blue to yellow at 7-8 drops indicating 70-80 ppm Carbonate Hardness.

My pH is about 8.2 out of the tap and after aging.

Is my meter completely wrong or is it measuring the presence of something else besides GH and KH?
Assuming that the Hagan test kit is most accurate, how should I be treating my water?
I currently heat and age it for 24 hours after passing through a carbon filter. I have been experimenting with muriatic acid to lower pH, but am adding so little at this point (1 TBLS/30 Gal) that the pH is not really being effected.

I really appreciate any help the group can provide.

Best regards,
Steve

[Carol_Roberts]

Your tds meter measures all disolved solids - mineral or not. For instance, salt will raise your tds, but not increase hardness.

I'd try another GH test kit just to make sure the tes kit is not faulty.

[sstainback]

Carol,
Thanks for the quick response !

I just received the test kit in the mail today from ThatFishPlace.com. I also bought some R/O right and tried adding a sprinkle of that to some water and then testing. That does give me a pink then blue response on GH, but repeated tests with just plain aged water goes from clear to very light blue which continues to get darker with additional drops.
I'll try to track down another test kit tomorrow though.

If it is correct, would this be considered SOFT water and suitable for breeding or does the TDS meter reading tell me it is actually too HARD for breeding as it is, with something other than Calcium. ( I am a long way from having to worry about breeding though, just curious :))

I am currently trying to grow out some fry that are 1-2". I understand from Liz in Hattiesburg, Ms, where I got these, that I should have high Calcium and Magnesium for them, so that is why I bought the R/O right.

Thanks,
Steve

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hey Steve,
Just keep your water clean and stable. Don't change any parameters from your tap. Worry about changing the water for breeding later. Aged your water in a storage tank like a plastic garbage can add a heater and an airwand. If your tap has chloromines add prime and your discus will do great as long as the water parameters is constant and not bouncing all over the place. Keep it simple. ;) ;)

Dan

[sstainback]

Dan,
Thanks for the info.

I am mostly concerned that the babies would not have enough Calcium and Magnesium to get maximum growth and health.

I think I have started some pretty good water change habits having lurked here for a while. I have had 1-2 discus in community tanks with fair success on and off for a few years, but never did anything special for the discus other than higher temps.
I have now set up a couple of "Discus only" tanks in my garage for these babies. 50% water changes every night; refill the garbage can through a carbon filter; add Prime; heat, and air for 24 hours.

If you think that I don't need to add any minerals to get the best growth and health for the babies, great!
If They would benefit from the addition of R/O Right, I wonder how much. When testing in a bucket, when I got the GH up to about 40 ppm, the KH went to about 80ppm, but the TDS, as measured with my old meter, went from 160 to 330ppm.

Thanks for the help,
Steve

[GulfCoastDiscus]

You're water is fine.

Cary at GLD has giant discus and his parameters are:

ph 7.5
kh 7
gh 7
tds 120ppm

You're worrying too much and spending money that you don't need (r/o right). I don't use prime too expensive unless you have chloromines. Filtering thru micron and charcoal before going into the storage tank is all I do.

HTH

Dan

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Steve:
You may have to add minerals. April (or the water guys) will be able to advise you more on how to do that.

You may have enough KH (buffer) to keep the pH from dropping

[sstainback]

Thanks for the help so far.
Here is an update....

I just got my water report in the mail today and here are the highlights. We have 2 different wells, but they are very close so these are averages:

Total Alkalinity... 120 mg/L as CaCO3
Total Hardness... 5 mg/L as CaCO3
pH... 7.7
Total Solids...200mg/L

If the Total Solids is something other than CaCO3, can I (and should I) filter it out with a sediment filter?

If anything else would be helpful from the report, please let me know.

Thanks,
Steve

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Steve.....Nice name by the way ;) .........Can you scan in or type your water report on here for me? I need to see a couple of things on it not listed here such as service(mix) ratios. What brand of test kit are you using and what is the conversion factor(1 drop =10ppm or something similar?). Your numbers you've posted are telling me that the well has very soft water (reason you are getting a blue reading on the first drop-5mg/L(ppm)= less than 10mg/L(ppm) or whatever drop conversion is) as far as your general hardness(most commonly composed of Calc and Mag), but high Alkalinity EXPRESSED as CaCO3. This expression does not mean that there is all Calcium Carbonate, it's just a standardized way of expressing the concentration of Alkalinity contributors as if it WAS all CaCO3. It is referred to as the Calc Carb equivalent. Carol is on the right track here by suggesting that certain kinds of salts, such as Sodium Chloride for example, will send the TDS skyrocketting, but will not add to GH or Alkalinity. On your Muriatic Acid experiments, the reason the pH is not being affected initially is that there is not enough acid to induce a noticable pH change. You are, however, effectively eating up Alkalinity and getting closer to the cliff edge crash point to drop the pH VERY QUICKLY once the acid buffer is used up. HTH


Steve

[sstainback]

Steve,
I appreciate your offer to help.
I'll try to attach my water report, but have never done attachments before. It is 3 pages, so I guess I'll do 3 different posts.

I am using a brand new Hagen/Nutrafin KH/GH test kit... 1 solution for each test.
I never get a pink reading on the GH test; it goes straight to Blue on the first drop (1 drop = 20ppm).
I get about a 70-80 ppm reading with the KH test (1 drop = 10ppm).
I'll quit mentioning my tds meter reading until I get it tested and calibrated.

I filter my tap through a Carbon/Sediment filter to fill a barrel then heat and air for 24 hours. pH about 8.2 out of the tap and after aging.

3 Bare Bottom tanks with sponge filters each get a 30-50% WC per day. pH drops to about 7.7 in the tanks.

Not currently adding acid until I learn more.
I am adding about 1 tsp / 10 gal of RO Right for good measure since I am trying to get my new babies to grow and want to make sure they are getting enough Calcium and Magnesium (I hope that's what's in there)
I also use a little bit of Prime in case the carbon and the aging does not get all of the Chlorine. Probably not necessary (?).

I live in Louisiana a couple of hours south of where Liz is in Mississippi, but in the same type of area, so we are probebly getting some similar water.
I am trying to get a water report from the subdivision, but they seem to have misplaced it (I hope they are not hiding something :scared:).
They did tell me they are adding .8mg/L of Chlorine and it should be .23mg/L when it gets to me.
Please let me know if I need to be adding anything to get best growth out of my fry. (Or if I need to remove anything :-\)

Thanks a bunch,
The other Steve
:D

[sstainback]

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[sstainback]

Yikes !!!
Sorry about the size of those attachments. :o :o :o

[mattrox]

It looks like your test results are fairly accurate given they are a dorp test. They really do match the analytical results. Remember that CO3- ions are not the only thing that affects basisity (high pH). KH will be reduced by adding acid, but don't use muriatic acid. It is HCL (hydrochoric acid) and is a strong acid and it is very easy to get a very sharp pH drop....like from 7.2 to 1.0. (Anyone remember the strong acid titration curve from High School chemistry? Humic acid is much more suitable acid to use for a discus tank...... JMO

[mattrox]

Humic acid is much more suitable acid to use for a discus tank...... JMO


Should have typed "Tannic and humic....."

[Steve_Warner]

Hi all,
Hey Steve, I'd be a little suspicious of that excuse that they "Misplaced" it as well ::) Anyway, the report does coincide with your test results and reinforces that you have very SOFT water, you lucky dog! The one component I find interesting is the high Sodium level(mainly responsible for your TDS test too). I am wondering if your well is getting sea water incursion mixing with the water table due to it dropping from demand. There is pretty much no general hardness in there and you would probably be ok in adding some if you desire. If you add Calcium, remember that it REQUIRES Co2 to go into solution (Calcium Hydrogen Carbonate). The Alkalinity can be taken care of with natural Nitrification process, but if you will be doing W/C's often, pH will not drop that much due to replenishment of buffer. Matt's suggestion of organic acids is a good one with peat a viable possibility. Overall I would say that you are in good shape with your water and should not mess with it for the regular tank. If you need higher mineral content for growouts, use the R/O right or research a homebrew formula and mix a batch up to experiment with. I believe there are a few on this site, as well as a few others on the net. HTH


Steve

P.S Good thing the Cyanide test came out negative, don't want the fishies commiting suicide with Sodium Cyanide ;)

[sstainback]

Steve, Mattrox, and all:
Thanks for the advice and feedback. I am still tracking the subdivision's water test, so I will let you know if it differs significantly from the DHH report.

I bought some peat at HD this weekend and read through some of the peat threads.
I also had some old crushed coral (rinsed well) from a SW tank I had several years ago (never throw anything away! ;)). I have not had a chance to track down specific chemicals for other brews.

I did a little experimenting this evening to see what the general impact of each was on my water. I was not as concerned with specific #s, just trends, so I use just a cup full of water for each and a hand full of material in a mesh bag for 1 hour. Here are the results...

Tap, filtered through carbon
0 ppm GH
100 ppm KH ( a little different than last time at 80ppm)
pH = 8.0
tds = 145 ppm

Filtered tap with coral for 1 hour:
100 ppm GH
100 ppm KH
pH = 7.8
tds = 650 ppm

Filtered tap with Peat for 1 hour:
0 ppm GH
40 ppm KH
ph = 5.6
tds = 72 ppm

Filtered tap with Peat for 1 hour then coral for 1 hour (too much trouble for practical use?)
60 ppm GH
70 ppm KH
pH = 6.6
tds = 265

So is it logical that coral would impact GH and not KH?

The coral filtering seems to get me in the right ballpark for growout... I will experiment with a little less coral and adding in some Epsom salts to get the same balance of GH to KH but get a little Mg into the mix.

Once again, I am concerned that my tds is getting up there too high with the coral treatment. Do I need to worry about that?

Any other recommendations based on the results I have gotten so far?

Also, I am doing 40-50% WC per day, so that may keep the alkalinity up and the ph high but stable.


Thanks,
Steve

[Liz_Streithorst]

Steve,

Very interesting experiment. The crushed coral gave you excellent results for growouts! I wouldn't worry about the TDS being that high...Stendker(the biggest hatchery in Europe) has his at 800 for growouts! And what I'm most impressed with is the fact that it didn't affect the pH!

I don't think I'd bother with the peat. As well as lowering the pH, it also makes the water softer which in affect will negate what you're doing with the coral. Don't worry about lowering the pH until you're ready to breed. Cross that bridge then.

Steve Warner, a question for you...How do you explain the high pH that Steve S has? His kH is low moderate and is gH is 0. Given these parameters, I would conclude that his pH would be closer to 6 rather than over 7. This water stuff can be a mind teaser, can't it?

Liz

[sstainback]

A follow up question...
I am still experimenting with the proper amount of crushed coral to use in my storage tank to get the gh where I want it. I have searched and cannot find a simple answer to this question though.

What is the crushed coral made up of? Is it adding back in both Calcium and Magnesium or should I also be adding Epsom Salts to get some Magnesium in the grow-out water as well?

Liz - I am still using the R/O Right for my actual water changes. I have not found the right quantity and exposure time for the coral gravel in the storage tank. Unfortunately, my precise scientific procedures (a fistfull of coral in a stocking in a big cup full of water for about an hour) did not lend itself to precisely scaling up to my 30-gallon storage tank, but I am getting there. I am assuming that if I can find the right GH reading with a test kit, then I can use my meter to get the tds at that point and use that as a quick gauge of the proper mix in the future.

Thanks,
- Steve

[Liz_Streithorst]

Steve,

I did a little poking around on the web and found the statement that mgnnesium occures naturally in coral at a rate of 40 parts of calcium to 1 part magnesium.

My water has a gH of 0, too. Like you I add RO Right, but also add calcium and magnesium to my beef heart. You have seen the fish...they grow well. This may be something for you to consider. BTW, remember our conversation about what to make your beefheart from when you can't find beefheart? I made mine this time out of round roast and chicken livers. Fish are going nuts for it!

Liz

[sstainback]

Liz -
Thanks for the info on the Mg & Ca content of Coral.
Is that a good ratio for grow-out do you suppose?

I will have to try the round roast and chicken livers.

Not long after I visited you, I made up a batch with lean ground turkey meat, fish, shrimp, Calcium/Magnesium Vitamins, garlic, gelatin, wheat germ and probably some other stuff.
My old discus shows no interest...
The Blues I picked up from you do pick at it when I am not looking...
The PB and Melons I got from you will demand that over live CBWs to the point of being rude. They do gorge themselves on the worms once they give up trying to tell me to go back to the freezer for turkey mix though.
I am trying to feed all of them the same thing at each meal so they get a taste for everything, but you can't please all of the fish all of the time.

I will try to take some pictures and post them. My last attempt at pics was not good.

- Steve