? for hobbyists with Curipera [Archive]

brewmaster15

12-22-2003, 10:23 AM

Jimmy,
what feature is it that you are referring to..The markings around the eye?

I really am not qualified to say whether this fish will breed true or not , I haven't bred it and don't know anyone with fry that have grown to adulthood yet. I am really waiting to hear from Dennis Hardinberg and his experience... His fry should be getting good size now,

My only thoughts are The extent of red coloration appears Variable on the 3 I have been watching for Francisco Borrero. 1 of them is a rich red color... another is more of a patchy red, and the 3rd looks rather drab. I realize that even in domestic fish there is this kind of coloration variable.. I will say that the red one is very stunning.

One thing I have noted with regards to pics posted over the last year is some of the fish appear to have striated patterns on the bodies, like the one posted by Tristanyyz..Michael. None of the 3 I have show this pattern to any extend.

I do think it all comes down to what you consider breeding true. So I guess the question is what features woul anyone expect to breed true on this fish?

-al

derrickTC

12-22-2003, 12:00 PM

You sound defensive there Jimmy, Are you having second thoughts about, if you have been ripped off? If you are happy and can afford it why do you care, what others think? you need no justification for others or yourself? I personally think they are not that special, then again many here wouldn't think 60k for a 22year old TR isn't either. but I would have no second thoughts in writting a check for that. So if you are happy that is what matters.
As far as breeding true, if I cross two heckles would I expect to get a brown? if you are talking about color variation which I think you are, as you have referenced RSG's, all offsprings should be as red as the parent, if you think the fish is special. Otherwise there is no gene isolation of the red kind. They are just browns with a few redder fish, like the greens with some with lots of spots. Pointing out the location to justify the price is just a scam, to sell a marked up merchandise. kinda like what they do in saks? it's marketing nothing wrong with that. ;)

brewmaster15

12-22-2003, 12:06 PM

Jimmy,
Do you have the Book Aqualog--South American cichlids IV... by Gobel and Mayland. If you do take a look at page 166--167. Theres a beautiful fish on plate s90118-4,... A fish identified as a Brazil wild "rio Madeira. It shows that distint Blue eye loop very clearly. The Plate next to it , s90119-4 shows the short eye bar, and less of a loop..it also is identified as Rio Madeira....F1

Additionallly,take a look at pages 56-68, theres some really beautiful wild browns, and "alencers/Alenquers" Many of which look much like "curiperas".. I can see where some doubt comes from after looking at these pics.

I am not saying that this is what Curipera's are .. I am just expressing my feelings that after looking thru The Aqualog Book I really don't think that Eye loop is that special in the wild browns/reds. But I am also one those one that pretty much think you have heckels as one species, and wild greens, browns, and blues as another.... and divisions smaller than that are hard to accept as accurate....Thats just the biologist in me though.

I hope that soon with all the Curiperas bought over the last year that we have some Fry grown out that will answer the breeding true question.. for now I think its up in the air for lack of better evidence, or until someone comes forward that has these fry.

JMO,
al

Tristanyyz

12-22-2003, 01:34 PM

Upper Canada Discus.

He Brings up a good question concerning the adaptability, specifically of Curipera, as it relates to water parameters and ease of breeding. Along with this, "breeding true". I really am not experienced at all when it comes to discus, but I like to think I am learning. "Breeding True" as implied by the phrase, means to me that they breed true, or you put two curipera together, and you dont get a pigeon blood (as an extreme example) or a Scotts!

I guess what this implies to me, is that there is no cross-breeding going on, in the case of curipera, that they are geographically isolated, and are not in one of those areas of the amazon that tends to flood, where tributaries mix together, and you get some alley cat heckels, and common Madeiras, mixing up in the gene pool of our pristine curipera. (i am joking, but you get my point).

Regardless, why is it always related to price? I got a bulldog puppy recently, and get asked that question all the time, "How much did you pay?" My dog is a pure breed. It breeds true. He is a dog. If I chose to breed him with another bulldog, I wont get a poodle. My bulldog is my buddy, so are my fish. Not an experiment.

I happened upon Curipera quite honestly. I loved the look of the wilds that Samson shows on his site universaldiscus.com. I especially loved the one labelled Rio Ica. With the center band, intense dark rim around the fins, and bright blue straitions, and a nice golden/reddish tone to the body. About a week before I went to see Oliver, I went to Jimmy's place. He introduced me to my first wilds. Firstly two madeira, which are now in my tank. And his collection of amazing Curipera. I told him about my wanting to get a Rio Ica, and he told me that its a false name, and the fish was really Nuovo Olinda, and he showed me his...which was amazing. To make a long story short, the characteristics I appreciated in the 'Ica' I found to be intesified in curipera. I went to Oliver, and picked out two curipera, a novo olinda, an inanu, and a whole bunch of Mari Mari Heckels. (drove home to Toronto, and dumped them in my tank).

I picked out my first curipera. The picture at the top of this discussion. And I now realize how different it looks to all the other curipera I have seen. I love those blue striations above the eye and across the top of the fish. But this fish has blue striations that are not present on my other three. One of my curipera is not that good looking, but real friendly, and has a great personality. I am hoping that this one may be a great breeder one day. The curipera i have with the striations doesnt have really red eyes. But the two new ones do, one is getting really red, and the other is still a bit dull, but golden.

I dont know how far you can take things scientifically, so far away from the source. This is a great hobby, Discus. As many that have bias against wilds, within the "wild" community, there is another small faction that like curipera. What each of these people get out of their hobby is satisfaction derived from a variety of interests. Some, geographical, some because of their characteristics, some because of the price tag, i suppose...

So Peter to get back to your original post, if you like the look of the fish then get it. You gotta act fast tho, I dont think Oliver gets too many per season, and he gets the most from what I can see. A few of us have curipera. I know from my experience it took about 6 months for my first two to fully colour up. You asked what I think of them, I have had two since May, and just got two more last week, and I am very happy with them. I am also extremely happy with my Mari Mari Heckels, that i bought from oliver for $40 each, around 4 inches, and now are some of the biggest fish i have!

If you are unsure Peter, why dont you get a bunch of the small B quality Curipera that Oliver has. They are less expensive, but you may end up with some really pretty fish.
M

12-22-2003, 01:45 PM

Tristanyyz,

What do Mari Mari Heckels look like?

Thanks.
O

Tristanyyz

12-22-2003, 01:59 PM

Madeira to the left, above, and right Mari Mari, and curipera bottom

Tristanyyz

12-22-2003, 02:08 PM

;D ;D ;D

I love how passionate Discus people are. Maybe what makes curipera so red is the blood pressure of the keepers. (I am joking).

I do think it takes "guts" to post here, especially about something volatile like wilds, or worms, or do-it-yourself things...

I am a member to other forums aswell, and I find that enthusiasts of bottom-dwellers, and mean things like stingrays, are much more laid back ::)

Cary, I was wondering something. I have seen in other posts, postings that suggest that you may not be a fan of wilds. If you care to elaborate on that, and share your reasons why this is the case, it may make for more interesting discourse!

Cheers!
M

brewmaster15

12-22-2003, 03:20 PM

Jimmy,
I hope you didn't take my comments as an attack.. They were not meant as one. They were meant to just add to the discussion. I think many here would be hard pressed to ID a brown discus let alone one of the red based varients ... to talk about what makes fish like "curipera" different .. you need to explain what makes a brown a brown.

You have a wealth of experiences to add to any discussion , but not everyone will share your point of view always. Disagreeing or offering other points of view can add to a discussion greatly. It doesn't always mean you are attacked when someone disagrees with you.

Just want you to understand this.

-al

jim_shedden

12-22-2003, 05:12 PM

I know s__t about wilds even though I have 8 or I should say 28 of them. I have read everthing there is to read and I still consider myelf absolutely useless is giving advise about them but...................this is a great thread.

thanks : jim

12-22-2003, 06:25 PM

Thank you everyone for your replies and insights.

Tristanyyz, I'm going to go ahead, take the plunge and contact Oliver after the holidays. I e-mailed him about a month ago so I do know the price of the fish.

Anyone else? How about some more pictures? ;D

Peter

CARY_GLdiscus

12-22-2003, 10:37 PM

;D ;D ;D

Cary I was wondering something. I have seen in other posts, postings that suggest that you may not be a fan of wilds. If you care to elaborate on that, and share your reasons why this is the case, it may make for more interesting discourse!

Hello Tristanyyz,

Like I said I mean No harm. Am here to Help! Sorry But I think its wrong to mislead people into thinking that a red wild discus would breed true and that maybe the price is not so bad because of just that!
I know lots of breeders Too that are breeding this Discus and its not the same story Am Getting! Also You are right! Am not a wild Fan Or a discus Expert about wilds or domestic's. I learn more and more every day as I go! I only want the hobby to grow! As for Jimmy I allready said I love Him AND I DO! I just find some of the things he states alittle debateable. However If You seen His Discus You will Know that the man knows what he's doing.

Believe Me I will be the first to admit that there are 100 diffrent ways to RAISE,BREED+GROW DISCUS! IMO Anyone can do it if they try!
Its all in the care You give them. Many will fail but not because of what they did but only because of bad males! Now know one told me this!
It is my own conclusion. IME Most males are Mules! They will never spawn and produce fry. However I find that wild discus are more potent then Domestic Types are if you can get them to spawn. I guess thats one of the reasons patience! which I lack on.

Well to get back to the post! Yes its true I do not care to have wild Discus but thats just Me IME they are very slow growing. not much to look at and produce many more color morphs when breeding then the
Domestic strains do. Plan and simple I like Color and lots of it! I guess thats why I also like flowers and butterflies to! I also do not believe wild discus are needed in a breeding program if proper line breeding and outcrossing is done! most good breeders will tell you this when breeding wilds into domestics the set backs are much to far and long on color, Size + shape. well takecare hth.
Cary
MeRRY XMAS TO ALL AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT!

Tristanyyz

12-23-2003, 01:16 AM

8)

That flower is very bright.

One day in the near future I would very much like to have the privilage to visit Great Lakes Discus, and meet the man behind the fish!

I have a few domestics with my wilds. I have a beautiful super blue angel, that came from universaldiscus...and some peppery pigeons that I bought at a fish store...one of them reminded me of ketchup potato chips, so I bought him.

The blue guy stands out the most amongst the wilds and the pepper. And I have often thought he is just too bright! Looks out of place...

There is very much an aesthetic here at work. Bright yellow, blue, and reds are very impressive in a tank there is no doubt. But for myself, I prefer the more natural look, nice subtle striations, with a bold vertical band. It is completely individualistic. For me there is nothing like a school of those gorgeous vertical bands you see in heckels, it establishes a visual rhythm that is very aesthetically pleasing! Or the changeable colours that come from a curipera when they get real excited they turn almost mahogany! Which contrasts beautifully with the turquoise-blue striations in their fins, and mask! They look very tribal.

How about their movements...
Try catching one, wilds are fearless! They bash around the tank, they can lay almost flat on the bottom of the tank under some driftwood, hiding from you when you are trying to net them. They are extremely robust and assertive! When they stand their ground, fully displaying their fins, they look light prize fighters, ready to kick some serious a$$. I have a pigeon that lets me transfer him to another tank by hand, he just lays there on my hand...the wilds are just starting to warm up to me, its an on going thing...they take their time. However they are extremely calm, I can hit the side of the tank, and they will just stare at me...and all the domestics will be hiding in a corner.

Domestics are like traffic lights, green for go, and red for stop. Bright colours! Wilds are more subtle, and natural, intense colours that change with mood. Not that either is better or worse...the wild is just an aesthetic that I find more satisfying! And I am willing to pay for that. Lets be frank here, since when was money an issue for the discus enthusiast? Some of us talk here like we save money...(not unless its for a bigger tank).

I am not sure that wilds are slow growing. Certainly they grow slower in nature than in a tank. Once they are in a tank tho, they can eat until they are ready to burst! My Inanu has got to be an inch thick! My heckels grew very fast.

I have no opinion about breeding. I wish I did. I noticed that the shape of my wilds is much better than my domestics. That could just be due to poor domestic selection on my part. I did wonder if the shape of domestics suffered due to poor breeding practices. If I get brave, I will start playing with water parameters, but for now, I will see if I can get my wilds to breed with just lots of water changes, lots of good food and some tlc...we shall see.

Lets say we all flew radio controlled helicopters, as an example, to drive my point home. My feeling is that each of us would get basically the same pleasure out of the activity. Motor skills, hand-eye coordination, maybe some technical babble, then out for a few beers. Our hobby such as it is, on the other hand, is an individualists activity. Sure the general theme of "discus" links us together. But what we get out of the hobby individually can be a completely unique experience. We all bring our own expertise and experience, and integrate it into our hobby, and derive satisfaction from it...From a wash of tangerine in a pristine, otherwise empty tank, or a complicated twist of driftwood, with a school of those prominent center-vertical bars...and what we get to do, is share this more or less hermit-like hobby of discus keeping, with literally thousands of other people around the world. And share our individualist approaches and thoughts, together.
WOW...i think thats really cool.
Cheers,
M

ps, Brewmaster do you have some pictures of the curipera you are looking after? Maybe this is a good time, for people to post their curipera pictures, lets see what they look like...by posting curipera here, we may be able to make better educated guesses...who knows.

moonfire

12-23-2003, 01:35 AM

yeah, let's see some pics of those awesome curiperas...as far as wilds or domestics goes, they are just different sides of the same coin, so really none is better than the other..lol..

CARY_GLdiscus

12-23-2003, 05:43 AM

Very Nice Post Tristanyyz!

I Agree ;D

Ramon Anastacio

12-23-2003, 07:20 AM

Peter,
It does take several months for them to color up. What do I think? I have several different wilds and the Curipera stand out. They are the reddest and most beautiful wild discus I have.

Here's a picture of one of mine. If you want to see another pic, the discus on the cover of the new book "Exotic Discus of the World" is a Curipera photographed by Oliver Lucanus.

Ramon

wildthing

12-23-2003, 11:02 AM

The price of "Curipera" discus is justified by the claims made for them...if the claims are false them the price is not justified. Too many people make themselves victims of high price, using the logic that 'if it is expensive it must be good'...& now have a large amount of money invested in their position, tho if you don;t care about money then who can criticize the over-spending except as it bears on the buyers discus knowledge?

Where these fish come from is not isolated , except seasonally to people...fish have no problem moving around during high water, only people do.
There are no high elevations in that region, look on a map!
Lago Grande & its area is not an exclusive place ...I currently have fish from there available, nice adults, some with 5th bar some red...etc etc ( Lago Grande), but I guess they are too cheap at $80, as no-one had to pay for my vacation to get them...
Everything on the Amazon takes about 3 days to get to by boat. $40k?.......someone must be travelling by private jet....

"Curipera" as far as Discus go, is an invented name to sell an otherwise uninteresting fish, it is not the name of a river, or a lake, it is the name of an Indian tribe in that general Alenquer region, so these fish could come from anyone of a number of tributaries & can be caught by any number of fishermen & they do, they are just called other names by other 'outfits'
They do not breed any truer than any other wild Discus. IMO they are a ( nice) brown discus....often they show a lot of red, just as often they don;t......sometimes they show a wider 5th bar, sometimes they don;t....this cannot in any way be described as a 'fixed morph'
They can be very nice fish or drab torpedoes, just like any other wild....but why should Americans pay what Asians now will not currently pay, given the fish & given the economy? & why re-invent the wheel, the red genes have been isolated long ago from other wild red fish from adjacent areas ( Santarem, Alenquer etc)
There was a previous argument about these fish, on this forum, with more pertinent facts.

Tristanyyz

12-23-2003, 12:54 PM

Book me on that 3-day boat tour of the Amazon. 3700-4,850 miles of River in 72 hours. We fill up our boat with rocket fuel at the Atlantic on Monday, light her up, refuel Tuesday morning in Venezuela, by Tuesday afternoon we will be in Colombia, and by Wednesday evening at the foot of the Andes.

Ramon, that is a (nice) fish! ;) ;) ;) ...beautiful
M

gang_mary

12-24-2003, 04:18 PM

Hi wildthing ,

Sent me some photos of your Lago Grande fish if you can ship them to Taiwan :) waiting for your reply!

and as to my knowledge,the Curipera is sold higher than 12000 Japanese dollor this year.smoe are sold 18000.

Peter,

I bought 4 Curipera this year from Oliver,it took 2 weeks to color up ,but 2 of them fading after a water change later,others were getting reder....Now they are all show very good red coloration.They all looks different,whatever~I love them ;D well frankly speaking,i don't know if it's worthy the price ...it's too difficult ...I like any looking-good wilds and I think Curipera is good enough.

Also I was told that catching Curipera fish costed much higher because of inconvenient traffic by an European importer who has many Tefe RSG taht smoe of you called"Japanese Grade"fish.Billy and I will order some ;)

Jimmy ,Ramon and Tristanyyz,

Your fish are nice,may I show them to my friends in Taiwan forum?

to folks,

Have a good Xmas

attached is my no.1 Curipera

gang_mary

12-24-2003, 04:22 PM

right is my no.2 Curipera,a female : left is no.1,male

gang_mary

12-24-2003, 04:24 PM

My no.3 ,also a female, with a domestic.

gang_mary

12-24-2003, 04:30 PM

this is my No.4 I crossed it with a RSG to produce my original red diamond ;D...
sorry aout the poor quality of my photos,you still can see they are looks different one another.

gang_mary

12-24-2003, 04:47 PM

For not seeing her face ,I post another photo of no.2,she is the reddest one among them.

ppn

12-25-2003, 06:49 PM

Hi Lee:
Here are some wild blue discus (solid red/Ica type)from Nhumunda area.
Although they were not from Alenquer area, but still with red appearance.
Your Curipera are really red, hope they could breed future generations.
If could, I want some of them. ;D
Of course, happy new year to everyone here.

ppn

12-25-2003, 06:50 PM

female

derrickTC

12-26-2003, 11:36 AM

Jimmy,

Some importers may say it is way over priced for a Brown discus. We're being ripped off. You have to understand the background of that fish and how it was caught and transported to your tank.

this is why, In the next few posts you are further trying to justify the price you paid for, that is a defensive approach, especially from a customers point of view. I don't think they are that special. Infact I have seen sellers advertisethem as alenquer-curiperas etc... etc... Again if you are happy you are happy, don't need any justification for your happiness. have fun with them, they are very nice fish indeed. :)

And I don't know who brought up the line theory, but check this pic. there is nothing to the line. Looks like the so called curiperas are just the redder fish of the batch of browns form the alenquer/santarem. Nevertheless the coloration is stunning

http://www.amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie/Diskuswildf%E4nge/Seiten/Barra%20Mansa.htm (http://www.amazon-exotic-import.de/Gallerie/Diskuswildf%E4nge/Seiten/Barra%20Mansa.htm)

AEI

12-29-2003, 08:13 PM

To all wild discus enthusiast´s,

I think it is important to write this lines here because D. Webber ( Wildthing ) spreads wrong information about our businesspartner and good friend Oliver Lucanus and Curipera Discus especially.

Nothing of what Webber said is true. Most of his words are so wrong that I feel forced to write the following lines because I fear that some of the forums members will believe him.

Fact is that:

Curipera is the trading name of the true genetically red discus from a lake namend after the people ( Cuipeua indians ) that life there. Curipera Discus are unique in their red colour ( the red is based on a yellow ), their unique horizontal turquoise line in their anal fin and the turquoise blue open circle around their eyes, their Alenquer typical shape and maximum size and of course their genetically red ( for reference photographs please take a look on this homepages: www.belowwater.com & www.goslinea.com ).
As you can see in this two galleries curipera is a outstanding true red wild discus. There are also royal coloured fish ( blue lines over the whole body ) but also with the typical caracteristics mentioned above.

That means if you breed on a Curipera x Curipera pair you will get unbelievable true red fish. I already had some from a customer who bred this fish and I have of course wild Curipera´s in my tanks.

The Curipera lake is isolated and has no contact to other lakes or rivers. The source of this lake is on the food of a not to big hill. So it is impossible that the water level from the curipera lake increases so much that it would mix with other lakes or rivers close to curipera. So Curipera Discus can not mix with other discus neither during raining season nor during dry season.

Curipera has nothing to do with Lago Grande. Again: Curipera discus are out of a very small lake in the Alenquer region – lago grande is a very big lake in santarem are ( Take a look on the map ! ).

There is only one exporting company that is crazy enough to spend 40.000 USD or sometimes even more money to get new and unique fish. This company is supporting exlcusive customers. Webber is not a customer of this company and will never become one.

Also I do not understand what Webber means by saying that the discus are moving around. Does he mean they take the bus down to lago grande and mix with his 80 Dollar fish? Please explain it to me!

So anybody who says curipera is just a uninteresting brown discus sometimes nice sometimes drap torpedos that can be found in anyone of a number of tributaries & can be caught by any number of fishermen makes himself to me unreliable and pretends himself as somebody who does not have the slightest notion.

The high price is a reason of the difficulties the exporter has to get Curiperas, the unique red genetic colour, the high demand and of course the fact that it can be caught only in this small lake there in alenquer area during a limited time every year.

Few question to wildthing webber:

Why don´t you offer curipera if they are so comon?
Why don´t you sell tiger stingray at the same price as reticulata ( they are both just stingray )
Why do you talk about fish you don´t know.
Why don´t you give a way your fish for free instead of selling them under market price with the only aim to bother your competitors?
Why do you try to confuse people who visit this forum to talk about their experiences about one of the most beautiful southamerican cichlids?

My personal advice to you:

Better say nothing, if you don´t know what you are talking about!

I will watch this forum now carefully and wait for further postings regarding curipera discus.

Best regards,
DANIEL MATTHÄUS
Amazon Exotic Import
www.goslinea.com

derrickTC

12-30-2003, 01:25 AM

Just out of curiosity. which of the following three fish are Curipera's and why? these pics are taken from your site I believe. so you should know which ones are what, what I like to know is why and How could someone make a distinction? paying 250 bucks a piece i would like get the right kind wouldn't I?

derrickTC

12-30-2003, 01:26 AM

....

derrickTC

12-30-2003, 01:32 AM

....

gang_mary

12-30-2003, 08:19 AM

Well~ I can't tell Anglo-Saxons from Celtics...I believe most of you can't tell Japanese from Taiwanese either.AS to wild discus, to ID a unknown origin discus is not necessary IMO,however,I believe gene does matter.To me the quality is more important than price altho I like nice and cheaper fish.

Cheers,
Lee

AEI

12-30-2003, 08:49 AM

To Derrick,

please read my first posting carefully.

I explained that real Curipera has a horizontal turquiose line in the anal fin in combination with the open turquiose circle anround the eye and the true red colour.

the first pictures shows a super selected fish from lago grande ( watch the anal fin!!! ) which was labled as "Alenquer Lago Grande" on my homepage.

The third picture shows the Curipera which made the second place on last german discus championship!

best regards,
DANIEL MATTHÄUS
Amazon Exotic Import
www.goslinea.com

derrickTC

12-30-2003, 10:50 AM

Thanks Danielle,

What about the second? Now go back and look at all the pics that are posted here as curiperas and tell me how many have both those representations you described? which leads me to believe this is not a gene isolation, if in fact there are all from the same location, which you said they are. In which case all F1's may or maynot retain the two characteristics you are talking about or even the color from the parents. So why should I pay 250 buck for it again? For the red? they don't look any redder than some of the sanmerahs and no where closer to the Pigeon based reds.

Lee
what gene? I have yet to see a F1 from these fish maybe I may change my mind then. post some pics when you have them.

gang_mary

12-30-2003, 11:31 AM

Derrick,
What gene? ???come on~what I mean is the gene coded red body color,not only in Curipera but other red wilds,I was told Curipera is the best,so I bought some for breeding,that's my choise. Your point is the price,but I usually need to pay much higher for a good red wilds altho they are not Curipera,and other special wilds as well.
The only F1 pics I can find are here
http://hw001.gate01.com/fujii/breeding1.htm
they are 1 year old youngs.How about to ask Mr.Fujii his opinion?
,I will not compare wilds to domestics that are usually ugly color fed shits :Peven gill plate is bright red :thumbsdown:
well...tell me how many pigeons(as you know it's a melanin mutated strain that make it show special body base color ) or sanmerahs without color-enhance have you ever seen redder than those reddest wilds,IME, very very few.I know Asian domestics very well.

Lee

AEI

12-30-2003, 12:17 PM

Jimmy & Derrick:

the first picture derrick posted is not curipera, this is just an outstanding fish from lago grande! it has not the typically horizontal line in the anal fin ( maybe it can not be seen so good on this pic).
the second and third picture is curipera.

You can find solid red, royal ( with red base colour ) and red fish with heckel bar at curipera.

the F1´s show the reddish colour from about 5cm on and turn into very intense red colour. Of course some will have more blue lines some will have less.

Please don´t compare Curipera to sanmerah or pigeon.

AGAIN: Curipera can not cross with other discus. They don´t have contact to other discus. They are genetic.

best regards,
Daniel Matthäus
Amazon Exotic Import
www.goslinea.com

12-30-2003, 12:55 PM

Daniel,

Any idea how discus got into the lake?
This type of natural isolation should produce a completely unique species over time. From what I have seen there seems to be two types(coloration wise) of curipera, with a heckel type bar and without. That tells me that they have a mixed gene pool. What are your thoughts on that?

O.

12-30-2003, 12:55 PM

Thanks Gang: Mr. Fujii's site has proven the F1 do breed true with a characteristic eye loop and a 45 degree lines. Now the question is to keep or not to keep my Curipera cross after I've seen those F1. We shouldn't waste our time to raise them up.
Jimmy.

derrickTC

12-30-2003, 01:10 PM

Thanks for proving my point Lee, I know you would dig that link up. My point exactly at one year none of those fish show the so called distinctive marking or them while infact the blue coloration is the first that comes out in fry. Second they look nothing more than regular browns, I am pretty sure some will color up nice and bright. The point again is they don't breed true, the fact that they don't breed true is in fact a proof that there is not gene isolation. If the socalled lake is isolated and several generations of curiperas have been isolated from the rest of the population the offspring will be exact copies in charecteristics and color. There is something fishy about these claims. :-X :-X

brewmaster15

12-30-2003, 02:38 PM

Hi Daniel,

I have some questions for you ..

1) have you been to this lake and physically seen These fish collected there? Do you have any photos you can share of the collection site.? Exactly how small a lake are we talking here?

2) Does a river lead out of that lake as an overflow.. and If a river leads from that lake as over flow .. why are you so sure there are no chance that other strains made it there or can? Obviously by the variations it appears that there is not a fixed gene pool there... If there was... These fish would be Identical. As a reference I draw your attention to the fish that Alberto from Aquatechnics sells from the nanay river.. Look at how similar these fish are in shape and markings and this artificial population hasn't even been established a fraction of what an isolated population of "Curipera" would be.

http://www.aquatechnics.net/nanay.htm

The Problem I have with this being a truely isolated population in a lake is you would most likely lose those variations... unless they were being repeatedly introduced. albeit on a low level.

3) I have heard proponents on boths sides of the spectrum say this fish either breeds true or doesn't. Is special or isn't . To date I have seen one example posted from the Curipera breeding,,,The link for

http://hw001.gate01.com/fujii/breeding1.htm

I do not see how you or anyone can be sure at this point that this fish will breed true? Even if This population is isolated... which is hard to believe for a discus.. Is it safe to really say that It breeds true when proof is lacking. Do you really know that there are no other strains in that lake? even in small numbers?...perhaps favoring areas not collected in?

How many do you know of that have bred this fish ? and can you direct them to us here, or give us their contact info? I believe the only way this matter will be put to rest is with Proof. Otherwise we as hobbyists are left with the "word" of suppliers that are competitors.

Conversely I feel I should mention that I have been told that for a discus to "breed" true It only needs to do so at a rate of 60% to be considered a true strain. Based on your experiences does the curipera meet or exceed that percent?

I will also take this opportunity to remind everyone that this discussion is to be kept on civil terms., Please refrain from personal attacks.

Thanks,
al

gang_mary

12-30-2003, 02:45 PM

Thanks for proving my point Lee, I know you would dig that link up.

hehehe~no surprise hunh

the evolution of wild discus is not certain IMO,I saw some true breeding offsprings of heckel discus without 5th bar before and some red TQ show central bar!
Also how to identify tree bred wild ??? if the central bar is atavistic ??? or maybe RSG is their ancestor ???God knows...

12-30-2003, 02:56 PM

Al,

You've raised great points. I think this is a good discussion if we take the politics out of it. :-\

O.

gang_mary

12-30-2003, 03:12 PM

the sight of lake, only Japanese
http://www5b.biglobe.ne.jp/%7Eamazon-b/amazonreport/AL-4.html

gang_mary

12-30-2003, 09:21 PM

I have a question to everybody,do you thinks Tefe green breeding true?

Lee

moonfire

12-31-2003, 01:39 AM

gang_mary

12-31-2003, 05:51 AM

To answer your question, Lee...the rsg do not breed true in the wild, just as the curipera, it does not breed true either...just look at most of the photos, you will see many different shades of red and body patterns... as for the "eye loop and 45 degree line " of the curipera characteristics, let me tell you many of my alencers that are bred by me carry the exact charateristics, so should I sell my alencers as curiperas too?

If your fish is not from Curipera population,why do you sell them as Curipera?
There are seems different identifications of "True Breed of wild" on this fourm, also I agree that the "eye loop and 45 degree line " is not only showed on Curipera...there is no solid evidence to prove if the population isolated or not and I always think the point of issue is the price. :-\

brewmaster15

12-31-2003, 06:52 AM

Going back to my last post, I would be very interested in hearing what everyones definition of breeding true is? In terms of discus in general, and more so in terms of what traits a Curipera specifically breeds true on that sets it apart from other RED colored fish such as Alencers and Santarems etc.

If you breed two very colored curipera specimens...What percentage of the Offspring will be like the parent?

If you breed two very colored Santarem specimens .. what percentage of the Offspring will be like the parent?

I guess the question for me is if the Fish doesn't breed true...Is it worth it? But before you can answer that you need to define "breed true" and define what traits you are talking about. Then you really need to show that these traits do pass on to the next generation at the expected %.

when I think of the difficulties associated with collecting this fish... I often wonder How many collected are actually kept? I would guess Theres a large number of throw backs on collecting trips. I can't help but wonder what the fish not good enough to make the trip back look like here. It would give me a much better understanding of the population dynamic in that Lake.

Just some thoughts here,

-al

AEI

12-31-2003, 07:23 AM

Curipera lake

AEI

12-31-2003, 07:24 AM

Another pic of the lake

AEI

12-31-2003, 07:25 AM

Pic of the curipera soon after collecting

AEI

12-31-2003, 07:25 AM

another one

AEI

12-31-2003, 07:27 AM

AEI

12-31-2003, 07:34 AM

To Brewmaster:

1. & 2. I posted some pics of the lake curipera.

It is a lake with following dimension: around 1000 meter x 100 meter.
sorounded by little earth walls ( hills ). No river floads into lake curipera. No contact to other discus biotops even during high water or low water season.

3. I know 4 persons in europe that breed or have bred curipera.

Who told you that 60% thing?
IMO there are two possibilities:

1. the fish breed true
2. the fish don´t breed true.

By the way:

Do you know the different variations and species of Tropheus cichlid from Lake Tankanjika?

They are all of the same lake and they breed all true in the lake and in captivity. They do breed true in the lake because they have no chance to mix with other tropheus populations due to "natural borders".
Believe me! We know what we are talking about!

best regards,
Daniel Matthäus
AMAZON EXOTIC IMPORT
www.goslinea.com

Pick

12-31-2003, 10:12 AM

Been away for a few days and just read this whole thread. I have nothing to contribute due to lack of knowledge and experiece, but, I know some truth and rumors now!

I LOVE THIS PLACE!!!!!!!

TC

AEI

12-31-2003, 10:24 AM

To all,

I found a picture ( attached ) in a older posting ( NEW WILDS ) from O.

He said he bought this fish from Webber among others.

Let me tell you:

This is no Alenquer fish!
This is TEFE Discus!
It has nothing to do with Alenquer!!!

Now I understand why still some persons in this forum have doubts about if Curipera do breed true or not if such irresponsible retailers like webber sell tefe fish as alenquer!!!

You will get no true red coloured fish if you breed on tefe fish sold as alenquer or if you cross breed alenquer with tefe!

I´m very surprised about your business tactics Mr. Webber!

best regards,
Daniel Matthäus
AMAZON EXOTIC IMPORT
www.goslinea.com

derrickTC

12-31-2003, 11:04 AM

To Derrick:

Have you ever had Curipera discus in your tanks?
Do you breed Curipera?
From whom have you bought your Curipera if so?

Please post some pics of your Curipera.

best regards,
Daniel Matthäus
AMAZON EXOTIC IMPORT
www.goslinea.com

Daniel I don't, I have been following the curipera thing for over a year now, frankly the whole thing sound very fishy, if it sound fishy I don't get involved in it. I can drop 3000 bucks and get 10 from you or your partner, Now can you give me a word that if each and every young one dosen't turn out as spectacular as the adults in color and marking, you will refund my money in full + interest? How many of the f1's have you seen in person? do they all carry the identification markings you are talking about? a 3000 ft x 300 ft lake isn't really that big of a lake, what is the annual rainfall for that region? have you been there in during high water season? have you confirmed that the lake dosen't flood over or the river dosen't flood in to the lake during high water seasons?

As far as breed ture, except for some throwbacks every other offspring should look like the parents, or the common population of the species. If 2 heckles throw 1/4 browns then there has been a genetic mixing somewhere in their blood line. An isolated population like the curipera, as they are claimed to be, should be atleast as true as PB which are only 10 years old.

Jeffery_Doty

12-31-2003, 11:07 AM

Hello Everyone,

I am wondering, is the real question here the price? Is that what has everyones attention? Or, is it the statement that Curipera breed true? Or is it that Curipera is the redest discus? Or all of the above?

From my personal experience observing Curipera in captivity and with limited experience:

They are the most -consistently- red wild discus I have seen.

If the F1 are anything close to the parents, they will be amazing.

They are well worth the price, in my opinion. Folks buy domestic discus for hundreds of dollars and there is no guarantee of -true breeding- with them either. There is also no idea most of the time of a domestics blood lines. At least with a wild discus, you know it has not been crossed with a pigeon blood!

I would gladly pay $250 for an adult Curipera that will color up to be an incredible fish. But, I would also pay $250 for a domestic if it has that same -wow!- factor.

Just my opinons.

Jeff
Oregon

jouniv

12-31-2003, 11:49 AM

This has been the best thread since OL was sharing his knowledge on wild discus types few months back. Congrats for the forum again Al!

IMO I see the point in purchasing Curipera for breeding purposes. Big, robust, nice looking fish with a high likelyhood of a more uniform genome than in similar looking fish from other localities. People want to spare time in their breeding programs by increasing the likelyhood of more uniform F1 phenotype through using fish from such a isolated biotope. I don't see the issue black and white. The question is more about probabilities.

Jouni

derrickTC

12-31-2003, 12:13 PM

jeff
to me atleast, worth of the fish is something that an individual need to evaluate. a adult size LSS will fetch far more than 250 in which sense yes the price is not outrageous. But Daniel started this discussion with a tone that webber is discrediting his and his partners name. In the middle of the argument is, whether the fish in question is a genetically isolated population, as the seller claims, or not, especially since they claim that the high price is due to their isolation and the trouble they go through to get them. Now How would you know they are not just the best looking browns picked from thousands and the isolation story is a coverup to justify the price? To me, F1's are the answer, if they are isolated the F1's should look like the general population, color markings etc.. etc.., which they don't from comparing the specific markings that daniel pointed out and the pictures in the link Lee posted. SO in my mind the question still is "How would I know they are not just the best looking browns picked from thousands?" You can always say I could trust, well i'm a buisiness man I don't reley on trust alone.

They truly are wonderful looking fish, if you like and can afford, you shouldn't have to worry about others opinion.

Jason

12-31-2003, 12:13 PM

Very good points made by everyone. I'll reserve my judgement on the curepera "marketing"

I see no problem paying $250 for an outstanding specimen wild or domestic.

from my experience with breeding wilds I highly doubt they breed true, just look at all the variation in the pics...but I can't prove it because I've never bred them.

knowing what I do know about wilds and their offspring if I was looking to get red wilds for a breeding program. I would take the $500 dollars that two curepura would cost and buy 32 or so med-large common red adults I'm sure if I had alot to pick from I could get a few specimens just as nice as curapera in that lot of 32 fish.

with those 32 fish I'd get more compatable pairs, more f1's to select for the next generation, and more "wild cards" in the gene pool for the chance of something cool popping up.

but if curepura is more likely to breed true(er) than the common reds, and it advances your breeding programme by a few generations they could definately be worth the money.

but then again knowing what I know about wilds I would just use the curepura's and common reds to outcross to domestics.

For the two gentlemen that are making $250 off the fish, even you two gotta admit if the claims made about them are true its going to sound like total B.S. to an arm chair amazon discus hunter like myself.

My hats off to both you two! I've been into discus since 1987 and the only other fish that has generated so much buzz, interest, and legends in that time is the pidgeon blood. both you two are part of discus history and I am quite envious!

AEI

12-31-2003, 12:20 PM

To Derrick,

please tell me your real name. I want to know which person I´m talking to.

to your questions:

If you are interested in purchasing curipera please contact Oliver Lucanus.
I´ve seen at least 2000 F1´s. A customer has at the moment over 500 in baby size. I would not sell fish to you because your only aim seems to bother me and to talk controversial!

I´m tired of explaining the same thing again and again!

For the last time:

Curipera is isolated - it is sorrounded by a earth wall ( hill ). That makes the lake impossible to get in contact neither during high water nor during dry season. There is no river that could flood into lake curipera!

the heckels you have bred may have been from rio abacaxis. This is naturally cross bred fish - it will split anyway. Same goes for Nhamunda.

Pigeon Blood is a mutant which you can not compare to wild fish. The first Pigeon Blood where not genetic.

best regards,
Daniel Matthäus
AMAZON EXOTIC IMPORT
www.goslinea.com

derrickTC

12-31-2003, 12:39 PM

I would not sell fish to you because your only aim seems to bother me and to talk controversial!

;D Why, Are you not sure about standing behind your claim, to give me a written garantee for the F1's? Well My name is Derrick T. Callaway, and your partner can find me here if he is willing to give me a written statement on your claims.
Ok I will stop bothering you, especially now that I realize you don't have the answers. :P :P

daninthesand

12-31-2003, 02:04 PM

This is a most interesting thread. I, of course have no means to prove or disprove any of the statements on this post. I do question the validity of the "eye circle and 45 degree line" or "the horizontal line at the anal fin" being unique to this fish. Mostly because I don't understand it exactly.

I have a tank full of santerim crossed fish and I see those characteristics in many of the fish. I also have another tank of wilds, that sure seem like they fit that description. I assure you I have no curipera fish here. But then again maybe I'm not understanding what it is exactly I am looking for. (probably)

Is there any chance somebody out there could take a picture of there curipera fish and use Photoshop or some other program to point out exactly what they are talking about? Maybe use coloured lines to highlight these markings? I know it would help me a lot. Maybe others too? Or am I just dense?! (likely) LOL!

Regarding the lake itself. From the pictures, it appear to me that the lake is sort of crescent shaped. Is this true? If so, I wonder if it is one of those Oxbow lakes that pinch off from a main river system over time and eventually become isolated?

http://mbgnet.mobot.org/fresh/lakes/oxbow.htm

This might explain where the original source of the discus in that lake came from. I'm not sure how long it takes for one of these oxbow lakes to form (if in fact it is one) but i'm pretty sure it takes at least long enough for genetic isolation to occur.

That lake is not very big. I wonder, if in fact these fish are unique, if it's such a good idea to be taking fish out of it. Surely there is a finite number of the Curipera in there? What kind of conservation practises are being used to make sure these fish continue to thrive in their natural setting? ( no soap boxes for me)

I wonder though about how the collectors at the lake pic out fish. They grab this fish from the muddy water and they look at it. Are they looking for the 45 degree line etc? Or are they looking for red, shape, size, health and general condition? If they can honestly say that every single adult fish they grab out of the water has this "unique" set of lines, then it just might be possible the fish breeds true for that particular set of lines. But if they throw ones back that don't have these lines, then I question the validity of using that set of lines to characterize the fish. I suppose it depends on what you mena by breed true? Is there a "definiton" of that, genetically speaking?

Again, this is all just conjecture on my part. I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade so to speak. I find the discussion interesting and it makes me wonder about these things....

Happy New Year everyone!

Daniel

Tristanyyz

12-31-2003, 03:55 PM

All I can say is.....WOW :D

I enjoy the festivities of the season and come back to a Curipera war, and tons of differing opinion!

In general I think it is in "poor taste" to slam the competition. I work in a competitive luxury brand name business and it is generally frowned upon to those individuals who start throwing mud, even if its mud from the Amazon!

I believe more and more experts of such issues and topics would enter in a discourse such as this, if we left out the "self" and the "business" and just talked about the fish. But its not likely as it the argument has become more of a justification of the fish, curipera on a number of levels. On the other hand it seems that a large portion of the issue is "are we getting ripped off".

I take the middle road. I think, as i said before, and now I am going to talk about another species to make my point...a bulldog looks different. Although the bulldog shares the same ancestors, bullmastiff, dalmation, way back in its ancestry, you can see different characteristics in the breed, not from cross-breeding, but as what they are CHARACTERISTICS.

Some bullies have lots of wrinkle, some don't, some have large droopy eye lids, and some have small slits for eyes...but still they are bulldogs.

It seems very likely to me, that at some point in time, as what was suggested earlier, that the Curipera lake, used to be a larger tributary of the Amazon. Purely in terms of speculation, 200 years ago, there could have been many many kinds of discus, in that small lake. And they bred. The predominant characteristic that has evolved from this isolation, is a red quality with an underlying yellow tone, this i can see, and agree upon. And the turquoise rim, that extends from the anal fins, and circles the fish to the beginning of the mask of the discus. In general the mask of the discus has a kind of tribal mask-looking group of turquoise striations, is it necessary to get more specific?

Do they breed true. If you get several characteristics, the reason for this, is that, like anything else...curipera came from a mixture of different discus that have evolved with their own special traits and characteristics that have become predominant in this fish due to an isolation that may have occured several hundreds of years ago.

How is that for a theory? "Armchair Amazon hunters" I like that...its all we have to go on i think. If that lake is really that small, it makes me nervous that we should take anything out of it, especially if its unique.

Fantastic thread!
Happy New Year!!!!!
M

wildthing

12-31-2003, 04:39 PM

I thought that disagreeing about a subject was just that...a subject disagreement....
I have no problem with anyone who knows how to argue like an adult disagreeing with anything I say & showing me ( & others) where they think my mistake is......but to be called a 'liar'?....
WOW!...that sounds more like projection from a disgruntled fan than an objective knowledgable statement, perhaps I also should have claimed that Eduard Schmidt Focke got his reds from me ( instead of Degen)?
: ;D

The author of the remark ( Daniel) totaly fails to point out anything that I have said that is incorrect except for nitpicking about a spelling that has no real formalized English or even Portuguese version. I think Daniel has further failed to substantiate any of the claims made for the now infamous "curipera" discus, or to competently answer any of the good questions posed by others here, while basicly affirming most of what I have said for the last year about these fish. Daniel's broken logic & self contradictions remind me of a saying from Confuscius....." better to keep your mouth shut & have people think you a fool than open it & remove any doubt"

In Amazon terms, the lake in the photo is a puddle.....if there was a truly isolated poplation of discus in such a restricted environment IMO it is more probable that every discus would be a clone within a couple or 3 generations due to inbreeding......
For maybe 9 months of the year most of the region is 'in flood' or high water, so unless & until anyone has been in that specific lake for at least one complete annual weather cycle, no-one is qualified to say what is & what isn't connected. We can only talk in probabilities based on smilar models. Next year the whole 'puddle' could just as easily be 100% dry, or be part of a river again, even a big hill might be created or eroded away in a single season....to make any kind of 'absolute' statement about anything that goes on with the flora & fauna of the Amazon to me seems kind of arrogant, as everything there is in constant & major flux. Near Manaus ( for a close reference) , further upstream than the Alenquer region, the water rises & falls by about 40 or more feet each season...........would anyone else like to theorize about what that kind of wall of water might do to a discus population in a tiny lake? with or without a small hill?.....

Economics & Discus economics are an interesting thing.......the US market & the German market are 2 different beasts & to make valid comparisons one would have to be familiar with both ( ditto the Asian market) ....I have been selling & breeding wilds in the USA for over 10 yrs now, so I like to think I got a pretty good handle on what is going on here, on the other hand I don;t know much about the European market, except historically they pay considerably more than the market will tolerate on this side of the Atlantic......(you would have to ask Brazians about why this is.. :-X)..but I went to Tefe for 3 weeks fishing for less than $4000, including everything and over 100 adult RSG discus.......& Tefe is much more remote than the Alenquer region....so maybe the $40k includes the cost of taking an (unlicenced) boat full of paying tourists to help give the fish fancy mercedes car names?(tho the original quoted figure as I recall was $30k & you wouldn't lie about that would you?)

btw, Tiger rays & Reticulated rays are 2 different species, one is quite rare, the other is ubiquitous........you tell me why they should be different prices?! what a bad example to try to use

I do agree with one thing tho, anyone who spends $40k on discus fishing is crazy........especially if an almost identical fish can be found much cheaper much closer in fact crazy doesn't begin to cover it as far as I am concerned.

Argue the facts, if you can, but please leave the personal attacks out & try to be a bit more objective & rational.

Thanks

;D

brewmaster15

12-31-2003, 04:50 PM

Well I have to say so far I am impressed that this topic has gone on with relatively minor Personal Jabs.. Though I am not too entirely pleased with Daniel's Comments about David Webber. I am used to an occasional conflict between Mr. Webber and Mr. Lucanus on these boards, but I think that is best left between these two competitors. I would be happy to discuss this with you by IM more Daniel. I feel the need to Direct everyone to the sites Mission statement... just as a friendly Reminder. :)

http://www.simplydiscus.com/mission_statement.html

Now back to my questions.... I appreciate the time you have taken Daniel to answer some of my questions, and hope that you will continue to do so as this post is interesting from perspectives that exceed the immediate questions on Curipera.

You say that you have seen many F1 and know 4 People that have Bred them or do breed them? Have these F1 's grown to adult? and can you please post some pictures.? I think seeing F1 adults would go along way to putting things into perspective here.

Thank you for posting those lake pictures... have you you been there? That "Lake " is a very small body of water... I am amazed it holds enough Discus to sustain a collection such as is coming out of it. In your estimation what kinds of Numbers of fish do you see there.

Please ignore my ignorance here. I have not been to Amazon but I am a biologist with a strong interest in Natural history. Those earth "walls." Are they a natural formation or one that the Villagers maintain? I have not seen something like that in pictures of the Amazon before. It seems out of place when I think back to periodic flooding and heavy rains.

-al

Jason

12-31-2003, 05:00 PM

Pigeon Blood is a mutant which you can not compare to wild fish. The first Pigeon Blood where not genetic.

best regards,
Daniel Matthäus
AMAZON EXOTIC IMPORT
www.goslinea.com

Hi Daniel,

I'm sorry you misunderstood me, the comparison I was trying to make with te the pidgeon and curipura was not about the actual fish, but in fact it was about the "mystique" and "legend" about the two fish.

When the pidgeon blood came on the scene the rumours that were going around about them added to their appeal, just like the curepura.

I remember hearing crazy rumours like "the pb was a mutaion caused by a new experimental hormone" or " the pb is a cross between an albino fish and a red royal blue that had been mutated by exrays"

the fish were ugly but everyone wanted one because of the stories attached, and thats what I am comparing your curepura story too, seems just as full of hype and less subtance as the pb, although granted its more beleivable,

I'm not trying to offend you business practices or marketing strategy, I actually admire it a great deal, wether its true or un-true.

Jason

12-31-2003, 05:02 PM

so how about showing us some pics and other points that determine what a curepura is? we'd all love to learn about them.

wildthing

12-31-2003, 05:04 PM

btw, the Discus in Oleg's post....as purchased from me....is ABSOLUTELY NOT a TEFE fish.....yes, it is a Green Discus, not all green Discus come from Tefe you know, for instance the Rio Purus has some very fine Greens, this one was caught, along with others, in the Alenquer region and was sold to Oleg " as seen" in other words, he came here to my house & chose it himself & I told him what I knew about the fish. I know this screws up some people's perceptions about wild Discus population distributions, but "in the Amazon all things are possible" is an expression used every day.
Actually I just shipped an obviously green Discus showing a clear 5th bar....should I call it a Madeira region heckel ( where it came from & what it was sent to me as) or a Green or should I invent a pseudo Indian name or name it for a local soccer team or a manioc strainer?
I have other RSG discus, as nice any Tefe RSG I have ever seen, caught maybe 20 miles from Belem.......go figure.......perhaps I should have charged Oleg a lot more & given it a fancy name & said it would breed true?

;)

mattrox

12-31-2003, 10:07 PM

It seems to me that there needs to be a standard naming system for wild caught fish. If it were the region and the color it would make it easier then you could sell it as a grade A Alanquer Red..... or in the case just mentioned an Alanquer Green......... (Tefe Mauve ;D) Just the basics and then the buyers who recognize quality will snap them up $250 or not.

How about no fancy names unles it is tank bred for 4 gens or more?...whatever standard breeders would like, and a recorded lineage (doesn't have to give away secrests). We need standards.

If 2 happen fish to produce offspring that don't vary wildly from the parents appearence then this should be documented with pictures and tried again. Lets see if they do breed true.

I live in a tropical region and during the flood season anywhere where water lies is flooded in the wet season. If no stream feeds this lake, then it must be spring fed. For surely it would dry out without wet season flooding. Someone else needs to go visit this place to independently verify claims.

Remember, just because the locals tell you something DOES NOT mean it is true. They are in it for the cash too and will, can, and has happened before (not just with discus), tell outsiders what they like to hear. I am not call them liars at all, but with out verification it is all just hearsay.

moonfire

01-01-2004, 03:01 AM

Mattrox,
I like your logic, especially the part on the second last paragraph.

Lee, why would I sell an alencer for a curipera? ... I was just playing devil's advocate on that question..lol...

gang_mary

01-01-2004, 04:10 AM

moonfire,
well ~ I don't exactly understand what "devil's advocate" means,however It's better to be yourself 8)
wildthing,
I had sent you a e-mail,wait for your reply.
And that green fish from Alenquer remind me a fish I saw in Degen's book about wildcught discus,it's very similar to that one from you,but IMO it's a special haraldi...not personal

Denny

01-01-2004, 12:37 PM

That seems to be a pretty small lake as has been stated to support fish that have much variation and yet that much in common, meaning lots of variation in pattern but uniform color. Is it possible that this population in this small lake was "planted" there a few years back with fish showing characteristics that someone wanted to combine and we are now seeing f3 or f4 fish from that transplant?

Have the local people given any history of how long these fish have been there looking like that? There is a picture of a large pleco along with the discus pictures, are the plecos in that lake unique in color and pattern in the same way as the curiperas? also how about the pirahnas, are they different than the ones in the main river system? it would seem that if the discus is isolated and unique, the other fish found in that lake should also be.

Living in the "Land of 10,000 Lakes", I can tell you that the vast majority of lakes in this state are isolated from each other, never are connected by rivers or streams and never flood into each other in the wet season and yet if I go to southern minnesota and catch a Northern Pike, a sunfish and a Walleye, and then travel north to the lake of the woods and catch 3 fish of the same species and mix them up, you will not find them remarkably different even though they are separated by 400 miles of real estate and they will show less variation than you are showing in the Curipera.

But to the point of the fish and their cost, the thing i see is that it can be a valuable fish if you are looking to add some wild genetics to the gene pool and at the same time wanting to increase the red color in your fish. If the red coloration indeed is more intense in these fish and if that coloration is indeed passed to the offspring and if it is that color that you are trying to bring into your breeding program, then there is little doubt that you will be justified in paying the premium price for the fish, just like the premium you pay for highly spotted rsg's if you want spotted fish.

As to whether they breed true, I would say it would be hard to say they breed true in appearance when there is so much variation in appearance to begin with. I would only claim that if mom and dad both had the same color and pattern including bars and right now I see too many uncommon things to make that statement

gang_mary

01-01-2004, 12:50 PM

Hi ~not about Curipera, just curious to know what you think
about ture breeding I want to know more what you think about Tefe wilds
and I have new ? for you, below is a famous breeder's text about his Alenquer cross with Dr.Eduard Schmidt Focke's strain and Mr.Manfred Goebel's ,this cross was carried out inbreeding for many years
"The fish has an orange red body, more red in females than males.
The males are half or 1/3 striped with light blue stripes and more brownish in color.Females are more or less free of striping."
as some of you said a ture breeding line should be idential to each in color and striation...well do you think his fish is breeding true or not?
and IME, I crossed a red TQ and a heckel many years ago, and through 5 generations of inbreeding now some of them show central bar(It's what I want,for sure I tried to outcross another heckel to make another line) ,most are not,do you think this inbreeding line true breeding?
and I know a Taiwanese breeder has a F3 from his selective inbreeding Tefe line,but there are many male showing full green/blue/white color with few red sopts while most female are more yellow and full spotted,do you think it's a true breeding line?

??? ??? ??? ???

CARY_GLdiscus

01-01-2004, 02:39 PM

Back again,
I just wanted to add in that in no way is anything I said dirrected towards Oliver. I myself consider Him a Great person and a good friend. Also The $ means nothing to Me I have payed $1500 for a pair of Hybrids that never breed or let alone would of breed true. My only point was that the Curipera did not breed true!

Well let me start by saying I have seen all of the pics from many and from all of the sites that have or offer them. Now IMO none of them look alike to me some of them even look rather odd from person to person. Anyways breeds true to me means all of offspring would closely resemble the parents.
In this case am not seeing that at all in the adults so how could it in the fry?. I know that the pics could alter color and shape so my staments are not solid proff.

However the striations on some is very intence IMO I would not want this discus for $250 If I thought I was buying a solid red wild Discus. This is also is a sight that tells me that the Curipera would not breed true 100% but maybe only 50%
But again for any discus to breed true is far fetched even line breed hybreds So I ask again how could a wild! I know I know they are isolated but if so would'ent mother natrue take her course and revert them back to just browns before red. I guess what Am saying is if You took some BDs and added them to a isolated lake that in time they would revert back to wild blues with mood bars without the help of man!

So My other point is some show heckel bars and some with heavy striations. This tells me that the gene pool is still at large and that moher nature will take her course in time. To even think red would dominate over brown in nature is just plain silly JMO.

Maybe since these breeders of the Curipera are your friends they would not mind supplying a few pics of f1s in a growout tank and some sub adults. Untill then I must stick to my guns and say when You cross a wild red Curipera with another wild red Curipera you only get more discus.

Well happy NewYear Everyone!
Cary Gld!

moonfire

01-01-2004, 02:48 PM

"The fish has an orange red body, more red in females than males"...this is an alencer trait..the females are usually more red than the males and especially so in her breeding mood. This trait is sex specific.

CARY_GLdiscus

01-01-2004, 02:56 PM

This is also true with Marlboro red Discus PB A long ago
alencer cross.

moonfire

01-01-2004, 04:31 PM

Right again, Cary...which brings me to my next point. Can anyone, who thinks the curiperas breeds true, point me to a singular trait that the curiperas carry forward towards its F generations? The 45 degree and line around the eyes do not count as other red/brown discus also have those markings. The trait has to be original and unique to the type. Answer this question and you will know without a doubt the curis breed true or not.

On a side note, pls. realise I am not slaming the curis. In fact SOME of the specimens are indeed very red, but just like the wild rsgs, many do not meet the standards...It would be a great fish to work with if you have a good breeding programe.

Jason

01-01-2004, 04:38 PM

IMHO a redder female is a female discus trait, estrogen seems to bring out reds, testosterone brings out blues, naturaly or by hormone treatment.

moonfire

01-01-2004, 04:51 PM

Jason,
If that is so, shouldn't the red also apply to all fishes and animals too, that the females are more red than the males?

Jason

01-01-2004, 05:13 PM

honestly I'm not qualified to answer either,

just a general observation made by myself other breeder/importers and asian farmers.

01-01-2004, 05:56 PM

gang_mary

01-01-2004, 08:31 PM

brewmaster15

01-01-2004, 08:35 PM

Well I thought this post was going pretty well but I have been contacted by Oliver Lucanus regarding a comment I made in an attempt diffuse what I thought was going to be a spin out of control thread...

Well I have to say so far I am impressed that this topic has gone on with relatively minor Personal Jabs.. Though I am not too entirely pleased with Daniel's Comments about David Webber. I am used to an occasional conflict between Mr. Webber and Mr. Lucanus on these boards, but I think that is best left between these two competitors.

Oliver took offense at my indication that there was a conflict between He and Dave Webber on the forums...
My comments were based on this posts..

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=9652;sta rt=0

and posts that occurred on another forum.

Additionally he feels he is not a competitor with anyone, and does not want his name "dragged" into any of this.. ..

I am therefore retracting that comment ...

-al

gang_mary

01-01-2004, 08:56 PM

This is also true with Marlboro red Discus PB A long ago
alencer cross.

I don't know it's a cross with alencer fish,I was told it's crossed with a wild red/brown female ??? ??? ???

About Cary's point of mother nature,It is fishy to me that if leting BD free back to Amazonia,will they be survival,or will they regain their losting melanin in skin.yet how do you know what color is best for discus for living in black water,clear water,white water ? Why does mother nature not kill nature born red discus or yellow discus?If the red color is safer for living in black water?If anything is possible in Amazon?...not personal ;)

gang_mary

01-01-2004, 09:13 PM

I'm gonna throw in my $0.02, mainly because I like to "stir the s**t"...
going by the "they breed true so they're worth X amount of $$ logic"--what about the more expensive leopard strains?? they're expensive for the opposite reason...they DON'T breed true, so you can only expect a small percentage of the fry to look like the parents...hence the high price....
if curiperas breed true, you would think the market would be flooded in no time with f1's and f2's driving the price way down...
david

I must say I agree...but compare domestics to wilds ::) ???and yes Leopards is never that good IMO...especially from SE Asia, I hate those fish >:(
well it's interesting that an Euopean collecter who never commended Curipera before sent me the pricelist of his newseason fish,guess what price he made of his Curipera :-X ...he told me also that's not easy to get Curipera altho he isn't like it...in some case,Curipera(Royals)was sold much higher than S grade RSG in Japan,however I don't think Japanese are stupid,I guess most of you don't know info of the Japanese market well,but If I can sell fish to Japan,maybe I will spent 40K to find new fish or new habitat every year.JMO.

CARY_GLdiscus

01-01-2004, 09:32 PM

GM,
You are right about the first crosses but most used the more line breed much redder alencer. However Am sure other crosses were done awell! ;)

gang_mary

01-01-2004, 10:05 PM

GM,
You are right about the first crosses but most used the more line breed much redder alencer. However Am sure other crosses were done awell! ;)

::).... :)

Denny

01-02-2004, 08:55 PM

No offense to Oliver, but it is hard to not use his name in any of this when he is the only person who is selling this particular fish.

IMO it would be better for Oliver to simply provide the instruction to us on what sets his fish apart from the 80 dollar fish,On DAAH he contributed a wealth of information that displayed to us the origin of many of the fish we had and IMO it really helped to create interest in wilds and also clear up alot of information about wilds that was just plain wrong. On the internet there is a market that is loyal but it requires a certain amount of routine maintainance. Cary has learned this better than anyone and has seen the rewards of it, but then again there is also the saying that those that know what to look for will pay the price and those that do not know what to look for are not going to be your customers anyway.It all depends on what business philosophy you have

Dennis_Hardenburge

01-04-2004, 01:56 AM

I wasn't going to post on this, but after reading through it I decided I would add my two cents worth.
First off 13 months ago I purchased what I thought was a fair number of curipera. It was a lot of money for me.
I have bred curipera X curipera plus several out crosses. but none are old enough to comment on how true they bred.
The curipera I purchased varied some what, with some more solid red and some with more striations to almost fully striated. I would asume that any given spawn would show the same variation.
Is there any Discus that all young look exactly like the parents, they aren't clones, heck my kids don't look all the same.
Are they worth the price, well out of the fish I purchased some yes and some I probably would have payed more for with out a doubt and some I wouldn't have paid that much for.
But by the same token I have purchased fish from most of the big name breeders in the last ten years and if 50 % turn out to be outstanding fish I felt I really did good, most times way less than 50% make the cut with my high standards.
I am not sure I really understand what all the posts on this are trying to point out.
Dennis Hardenburger

01-04-2004, 05:17 AM

I wasn't going to post on this, but after reading through it I decided I would add my two cents worth.

Is there any Discus that all young look exactly like the parents, they aren't clones, heck my kids don't look all the same. Are they worth the price, well out of the fish I purchased some yes and some I probably would have payed more for with out a doubt and some I wouldn't have paid that much for.

I am not sure I really understand what all the posts on this are trying to point out. Dennis Hardenburger

Ditto, Dennis Hardenburger, ditto!

I'm still puzzled as to this thread's topic and postings. To me, if the fish looks pretty good and lasts more than two years with me, it's all worth the pretty penny. If I can keep fish for ten years (especially a pretty fish), then that's okay with me (price-wise).

Regarding genetics, every generation has a different but somewhat similar appearance. Same for fish. Every so often there will be a different tone to the offsprings and from the F2's, F3's and maybe the F4's will have offsprings (that is F5's) that will resemble their great-great-great grandparents! ;D

There's a saying: "One does not fall far from the top branch of a tree." JMO (just my observation) **Angie**

mattrox

01-04-2004, 08:49 AM

Not all Poodle's are the same but we know they are poodles not bulldogs. We can tell clear traits. This thread, as far as I understand it is concerning the clear cut definition of a Curipera.

We can tell a Blue Diamond when we see is and there are PB traits that are clear. I think people want to know if 2 pics can be posted with notes telling us why one fish is a Curipera and another is not. We all agree that we can spot a quality fish, just that we want any claims made about that fish verifiable. If it is about where the fish is caught then markings are not an indication, if it is about markings then what about any fish caught from that lake with different markings. Some one independent is going to have to visit that place and catch a whole raft of fish and photo them and show people.

CARY_GLdiscus

01-07-2004, 10:49 AM

Jimmy,
NO discus is hard to Breed IMO Its just hard finding the ones that will!

jim_shedden

01-07-2004, 10:51 AM

:thumbsup:

JIM

moonfire

01-07-2004, 11:32 AM

Jimmy,
Seems like you have changed your views about keeping the curiperas.."they are not the average easy to keep fish". If I recall correctly, in the past, you have said that they are tough and easy to keep. What made you start to change your opinion?

brewmaster15

01-07-2004, 02:17 PM

Jimmy,
I hope you figure out whats killing all those fry, It seems unlikely that it a genetic reason though. Am I to understand from your post that your out crosses are not viable? and that you can't get the pure to spawn... or have the pure spawned but the fry never survived?

Have you tried contacting Dennis Hardinberg... He reports success with both pure and out cross... maybe you contact him and ask for info.

additionally... Jeff Doty has posted his observations on f1 Wilds not growing fast...maybe you are seeing this as well.

I am not sure that the Curipera is any more difficult to breed than other wilds ...IMO..Its reflection of how few adults are out there... relative to other wilds... Some wilds just do not breed well in captivity...others do.

Statistically Theres too few " Curiperas" out there to make any conclusions.

-al

ps....

For those already knows everything about the fish with absolutely no experience of the fish and in fact some of them have never seen a life Curipera can draw conclusion based on their experience. You are centrainly a better fish keeper compared to other 20 people around the world who have spent the last 6 years studying the fish and still looking for answers from them. I applaud you for your insight and your predictions Is not only unnecessary... but Offensive. Because some question what they are told and ask for proof is not a crime on this board. I personally took heat for all my questions on this Topic (and I have had 3 of this"Fish" for 10 months now,) but I am standing by my questions and observations... not because I have all the answers but because I am looking for them. ... It is not because I have a probelm with the fish, its sellers or proponents.....but because I am looking for information...fact/not fiction.... proof/not predictions of its gene pool. I personally have experience in many areas of discus keeping and so do others that have posted here as skeptics...Their experiences are equally important as others in this matter.

You start your post by..

I don't usually involve in any heated discussion for the last 10 years in various forums. and then proceed to fan the flames of a post that had calmed down. I do not think it was necessary and do not see how it added anything positive here. I am sorry in advance if this upsets you...But I am not tolerating any more BS in this thread.

CARY_GLdiscus

01-07-2004, 02:41 PM

Jimmy,
If You want To breed them I would buy 15 and put them in a 180 gal in pure tap! ;) And if that does not work buy 15 more.
Like I said You just need the right Fish The same holds true for Hybrids. Just because someone raise's 10 BDs does not mean there gong to get a good male and Female that reproduce Fry.

Thats Why Discus cost so much! Its all in the Breeding! Not all males are good. Most are not! IMO.

I also believe this is how all the fuss comes about! O KNOW! My water,PH,KH,GH TDS,mS,R/O My discus have bugs,Temps,
Is all a bunch of Crapola! SOME WILL BREED MOST WIL NOT!
Same goes for all hybrids.

Takecare
Cary Gld!

henryD

01-07-2004, 04:52 PM

Love this post...I think it is very funny. Sorry I am sure most of you do not. Let me explain why I think it is funny. I was showing this post to my wife who refuses to have anything to do with my fish. She just laughs at the post. She said we all sitting around argueing about the price of the fish when discus is really expensive hobby to start.

First you have the cost of the fish. (50+for each). Well discus do better in groups of 6 or more. So now we are looking at 300+. Then there is the cost of electricty, water, time, food, medication, and constant worries. So now we are probably looking at 350+ dollars a month. ( I am figuring about 1 hour a day of maintance at a rate of 10/hour. 30hours in a month). So roughly 4k a year. And how many of us only have 1 tank.....

I know that is too simple of way to look at it. The way I figured it is if you bought a cuperia base on the claims and if they are not true then you have the right to complain. If you can justify the cost of it and can afford one great. So if you bought one I don't think you need to justify to anyone why you did it. Next time someone ask just say you enjoy them. Never mind the whole breeding true thing.

It is sort of like people who collect antique or art. To some it would seem to be worthless but the buyer get some value out of it.

Or eating filet mignon instead of hamburger. Buying a cheap car instead of a luxury one. In the end if it does not suit you just walk away.

Henry

Now if I was a smart man I would take my discus money and invest it. With compound interest I could retire in 30 years with a nice18 year old girl friend in my arms.

CARY_GLdiscus

01-07-2004, 05:29 PM

O BOY! Don't let the wife read that LOL!

richgrenfell

01-07-2004, 05:40 PM

Well,
I have to say, I have never gotten so engrossed in a thread in my life!

Rich

brewmaster15

01-07-2004, 07:09 PM

Henry,
I am sure Nhi will continue to enjoy this thread. ;) ;D ;D ;D

-al

bikhu

01-07-2004, 09:13 PM

Well Henry when you are ready to dump Nhi for that 18 year old girlfriend let me know!... ;)
You had to do all that math stuff?!?!?!?! Now I am ready to get into a cheaper hobby... like watching cable TV repeats or something!
Hey Nhi... Dio you like old movies!?!? ;)

Dennis_Hardenburge

01-08-2004, 12:41 AM

Cary
I disagree with you a little.
All my male curipera will breed with any willing female.
But the females, it is a different story, I have only been able to breed two of them.
And yes no different than breeding any other Discus.
But tap water ( well what ever works ) I breed all strains in 100% reconstituted RO water ph 5.5 and 60 micros on a pumped drip system.
Dennis

01-08-2004, 12:44 AM

It would be nice to see some pictures of older fry/juvies, if you have any Dennis...It's been a while since the first spawn if I remember correctly...
please and thanks..
david

Dennis_Hardenburge

01-08-2004, 01:09 AM

David
I lost the first spawn when we moved into a rental house.
The oldest curipera fry I have now are aproaching four months old, and I have several out crosses that are a little younger, and fry on parents now.
We are moving into our new home in three weeks, then Jan 29 th I am going to have some surgery done that will put me down for a while.
The new fish room was the first thing that I finished in the new house and the fish have been there for a month now.
Right now I don't even know which box my camera is in, because when we moved into a rental we left every thing that we absolutley didn't need boxed up.
It will probably be middle to late Febuary before I can post any pictures.
Dennis

01-08-2004, 01:19 AM

Alright...there's no hurry...by all means settle in and get your operation out of the way...good luck... :)
david

CARY_GLdiscus

01-08-2004, 01:23 AM

Well Dennis,
How many males do You have? My point was that not all males will spawn because they can't and more then likely never will . And Ofcourse it holds true with females to! Also I know its much harder to get wild females to lay am not that lost!. But thats still not the problem. Am saying most males are MULES, EGGEATERS Or TO HI STRUNG! It does not matter what You do with your parmeters they still will never Breed.
Come on Dennis you of All people must of came across a male that You could Never Breed. I know I have had Many in My days.

If Your telling Me you have 5 spawning male Curipera then your one lucky man. And ofcourse anytime a male is good It can be forced paired on most all females that are willing to lay I do agree on that!.

Also sorry but true I get more action in tap water then when useing R/O and low PH! Even on wilds. PH 7.5 KH 6 GH 6 mS 165 I add nothing to My water No chlorine or chloramine Remover. NO carbon or Carbon Blocks Nothing! But good old Detroit city Water Thur to hot water tanks and Kmart Garden hose.

Now send Me my FRY! ;D
Best Wishes!
Cary Gld