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PanFish
12-24-2003, 05:12 AM
I made a big mistake and couldn't wait to change from an old, I think 50 gallon glass to a 55 gallon plexi tank.

1.remove fish into a 20 gallon
2.remove plants into containers
3.remove water into containers
4.switch tank
5.remove sand about 2 inches into new tank
6.add old water(50%) and new tap water(50%)
7.let settle for an hour
8.add "Cycle" from Nutrafin
9.put filters back(fluval 304 and penguin 330)
10.put fish back
11.give plants bleach bath(10%bleach/90%water) had a some algae problems
12.put plants back

Water was a little hazy but fish seemed ok. Fish started to eat and swim around like normal within a few minutes. Water stayed hazy for a 2 days with water change after two days. A week later after the change over, fish seemed stressed and the next day fish showed signs of sickness. Had cloudy eyes, white fungus like patches on forehead and a little on fins. They are holding in the far corner, dark and fins lowered and eating less and less.

At that point, I tested water and parameters were nitrite 0, ammonia 0 and ph at 6. My testers measure nitrite 0-5.0, ammonia 0-8.0 and ph 6-7.6. I think my ph is much lower than the tester is measuring and I believe my ph crashed. I then started to do 60-75% WC each day in hopes that it will help my ph. My tape measures at 7.6 and tank currently measures 6.0. I've been doing daily 60-75 WC for the past three days and they are not getting better but worse.


Sorry if this is a bit long but any advice or insight would be really appreciated.

Thank you Simply.

PanFish
12-24-2003, 05:14 AM
...

PanFish
12-24-2003, 05:15 AM
That was a before picture................

:'( :'( :'(

Ardan
12-24-2003, 07:59 AM
Hi,
I recommend aging your water with heat and aeration for 24 hrs before doing any wc's. (to stabalize ph)

I have a suspicion that moving the gravel stirred up a lot of nasties and bacteria, which is in the water column. Your fish may have a bacteria infection. (cloudy eyes, patches on skin)

Any signs of bloating?

I removed gravel once on my oscars and stirred up the gravel, they then got an internal infection. I used Kanacyn. Choosing the proper antibiotic may be difficult in this case.
It may be difficult to treat with gravel in the tank.

Did you keep the filters going with the fish while the fish were in the 20 gal?
hth

Carol_Roberts
12-24-2003, 12:01 PM
I agree with Ardan.

Also, your numbers do not make sense. Have you measured your pH from the tap and in a cup of water on the counter overnight recently? Is your water really soft? Water source changed?

If you are doing 50% water changes with 7.6 tap into say 5.0 water you should be registering 6.3

PanFish
12-24-2003, 03:28 PM
Ardan, Carol thanks for the quick responses, you guys ROCK!

There is no sign of bloating, I didn't have a filter going but they were not dried out either. I only had air in the 20 holding tank.

Carol, I've read about aging water a few times now but have never done it. I live in a small apartment upstairs. I don't have much room for a aging anything more than 5 or maybe 10 gallons. I have never aged my water and I will have to try to figure something out. Like I said, I now remember reading a few times that the ph will drop after the water ages and something, maybe clorine, evaporates.

I did a 80% water change last night(unaged water) and the readings were at max ph(7.6){(I meant to say 7.6 in the original postings but said 7). I tested the ph about 20 minutes later and it showed 6.5 and this morning I tested again and it was at 6.0(lowest it measures).

Is there anything I can do for them in the mean time while I try to get my ph back up? The cloudy eyes are getting bad and the white patches are also getting worse.

Thanks again. Simply is awesome and simply kick a$$!

PanFish
12-24-2003, 03:32 PM
Carol,

Also, I am not sure and have never measured my tap over night. I've always measured it straight(lesson learned). It seems to be consistent with before but who knows, maybe something changed with my water utill that I don't know about(probably not).

Carol_Roberts
12-24-2003, 03:46 PM
I wonder if you have soft water with an artificially high pH from the tap that stabilizes much lower after agitation. IF so you are continually subjecting your dicus to huge drops in pH. That alone may cause the symptoms you are seeing.

Again what is the pH of a cup of water that has set on the counter overnight - is it pH 6.0? If yes you must age yoru water before adding to tank.

Get a GH and KH test kit

In the meantime do two 20% water changes per day so as not to swing the pH up and down so drastically.

PanFish
12-24-2003, 04:27 PM
Carol,

Once again, thanks!

I will do that, I will do multiple WC if I can each day. I will have to figure out a way to age my water but not sure how yet. I don't have much room for a aging tank. I run a powerhead with tubing to and from my bathroom.

I will also purchase a GH and KH test kit. Should I also purchase different test kits for my ph?(high/low ranged)

Can you or anyone suggest any meds for them in the meantime?

Thanks!

LEM504
12-24-2003, 04:52 PM
I sent you a private message, which you may not have seen.
IN your description, of the tank change, I see no mention of Chlorine.
The bleach you cleaned your plants with - is Chlorine! It will kill anything - that is why the water company puts in in the drinking water.

I’m betting that if you do a test for chlorine - chloramines, things will light up better than your Christmas Tree.

If you didn’t get it all rinsed off the plants, or what ever - you are surely running a very sterile tank. Also keep in mind, the water company varies the amounts of chlorine as needed. Your water changes may only be making things worse.

Check for Chlorine - get rid of it - re-seed the tank from a HEALTHY tank. At this stage of the game, you can’t afford to wait for natural cycles --

Good Luck!

PanFish
12-24-2003, 05:10 PM
LEM504,

Thank you and I will as soon as I get home in about 3.5 hours. I'll get a test kit for that and see.....

Thanks LEM504.

Ardan
12-24-2003, 06:42 PM
Use a rubbermaid garbage can and a heater and airstone for aging water. You can hide it in a closet or leave it out.

hth

PanFish
12-24-2003, 09:27 PM
Yeah, I'll just have to make room for it somehow.

Thanks everyone!

LEM504
12-27-2003, 04:20 AM
How are the fish doing?

PanFish
12-27-2003, 07:01 AM
Same as before, PH stays down and nitrite and ammonia still at 0.

not doing so good........... might have to put them down if they dont get better in the next few days........... No deaths yet but soon...........

Left water out in conatiner for over 24hours and it still reads the same, 7.6.

Carol_Roberts
12-27-2003, 02:31 PM
You are doing a couple of 20% water changes per day and the pH is still dropping from 7.6 (tap) down to 6.0 in 24 hours?

The water in a cup on the counter did not drop or raise pH overnight?

IF yes to both you must have something leaching acid into tank . . . . CO2 reactor?

keith_cny
12-27-2003, 05:41 PM
Hi Panfish,
Your ph may be staying down due to gravel in tank. I have one planted 40 g tank which consistently measures around 5.0. All my other tanks measure 7.6. My aged water tank measures 7.6. My tap water measures 6.6.

I would remove the gravel myself but that is a really nice looking setup so I understand if there is hesitation there. One other option is setup a small BB hospital tank.

Carol ...about your statement:
"If you are doing 50% water changes with 7.6 tap into say 5.0 water you should be registering 6.3".

I specifically did a water change in a 55 g tank of angels a couple dayas ago and checked this. Tank was 7.6 prior to wc. Changed 50%. Ph after was 6.6 (measures with a Pronto meter). This surprised me ..but thats what it was.


Best of Luck Pan.


Keith

PanFish
12-27-2003, 11:31 PM
Carol,

I never had problems(8+months) with the CO2 reactor but I removed it after reading your posting. The water that sat over night did not drop in PH. It measured at 7.6 the whole time.

Oh, had to put one out of his misery........ he was barely hanging on so I ended it.... :'(

I did what someone suggested and that was to put baking soda to raise my ph. That might have been really really stupid but he seemed to know what he was talking about. He was a manager of the fish department at PetSmart. Two days later I looked in my filters and saw some pinkish stuff so I went and cleaned both filters out with hot tap water. Put my sponge filter from running 20gallon into it. Not sure if it was there before or not.

As to what LEM504 said earlier, I couldn't find anything to measure chloramines/chlorine but I think that might have been the problem. I remember I soaked my wood in it also and I think that was leaching bleach still... I removed it and we'll see if these steps made a difference.

Keith, I don't think the gravel is the problem because it was the same gravel but then again, who knows for sure.

I'm wondering if anyone ever had anything like this happen to them after bleach bathing their plants? That would be interesting to find out.

Thanks all!

I'll keep posted and hope things change for the better after the removal of CO2 reactor, cleaning of filters and remove of almost all plants.

lesley
12-28-2003, 03:30 AM
Hi Panfish,

I have one planted tank. With almost no measurable kH readings in the water I use, I have to keep a close eye on pH fluctuations. When I used bicarb soda, I found that the pH shot up and then went down again quickly. I think that the plants can use up the carbonates fairly quickly. I am currently using calcium carbonate powder and use peat in my holding tank. I realise that they sort of cancel each other out but I am finding that the peat seems to stop the pH crashing suddenly. I use the kH tester daily and add carbonates based on this reading.

I would think that you can use your co2 as long as you keep an eye on your kH and pH.

I have found that the planted tank is more stable regarding sudden pH fluctuations than a bb tank. I get more warning of a pH crash from the fish in the planted tank than I get in the bb.

Just a little more for you to think about!

Lesley

LEM504
12-28-2003, 07:17 AM
Panfish,

I think you have found your problem with the wood that had been soaked in
Bleach.
Could also be the plants / and/or what they are planted in. ( being soaked with bleach )
If everything was working before the change over to the new tank, there is nothing wrong with your system. Look at what you did differently for the problem.

If you haven’t picked up a test kit for Chlorine, would suggest you get one.
Color test strips are cheap. Most water systems are uniform with their mix of Chlorine in the water, until someone panics or pushes the wrong button. You will get hammered!

You also mention cleaning your filters with HOT water. If you go to extremes with hot or cold water, the bugs in the filter will suffer. The filters will also die, if they sit too long, without water circulation.

Back to the plants. Are they live, plastic, or silk?
I would think the bleach would kill live plants???
In past years I have used bleach to clean plastic plants. Works great!
Just make sure you get all of the bleach off the plastic before they go back into the tank!
If they feel slick, the bleach is still there!

I have noticed that my fish are more relaxed and secure, if they have some sort of cover in the tank. Have been thinking about adding a few plastic plants.

I see a variety of SILK plants available now. Can anyone offer feed-back on the silk plants? I’m wondering if they will soak up bleach, and also leery of the paint or what ever they use to color them.

I gave up on live plants years ago! Love them - they hate me!

LEM504

PanFish
01-06-2004, 06:55 PM
UPDATE:


I think I mentioned how I cleaned out my filters due to a pinkish crud being in my filters.(probably from baking soda) I pulled out a running dual Biofoam Sponge Filter by Hagen and put it into my tank. I was trying to "seed" the tank. Well, it is now showing signs of re-Cycling. Fish are showing good sings. Most of the white stuff are gone from the tank but their eyes are still a little cloudy. Two out of 5 are eating almost back to normal.

I used Tetracycline for a few days and used Metro after that because one fish showed white/translucent feces. Nitrite is a little high and so is ammonia but the PH is back to normal.

It might have been the wood that had chlorine and was leeching into water column. Still not certain what caused the PH drop.

Thanks all for the advice and help. Think my hopes of fish pairing are down the drain because this was pretty traumatic for them all. Lost one fish(only fish with almost solid blue)...........

April
01-06-2004, 07:50 PM
ph will keep crashing if your sponges are very full . or a high bioload. you can add baking soda but they will keep doing it. with my fry i kept getting that as it couldnt keep up with allthe little gills and ammonia and bbs. so i now use way more filters. and fine. but...if you did rinse with hot water id say you lost your bio also. may have been a bit of both. thats also wheni had problems.. when i had too much bioload then rinsed and too much.
you can also add crushed oyster shells to buffer and keep your ph up. my ms is only 30 so i have to add.
now ive been using icemelter. which is calcium chloride to add minerals and hardness. and it works great. or kent ro.. to keep minerals.
well glad to hear their doing better. sorry to hear about the one. : (

PanFish
01-07-2004, 04:39 PM
Thanks April.

Yeah, I should have remembered that I could have asked my buddy for some stuff from his saltwater tank to help raise the PH but forgot. Things are starting to get back to normal but the Cycling is starting over. Has anyone tried BioSpira? I bought a pack for 60 gallon. It's supposed to be a one time treatment and BOOOOOM!!! your tank is cycled over night? I thought that sounded a lil toooo good to be true but we'll see.

Thanks SIMPLY!!