Water changes

[Himbo]

If someone could please help, below are a couple of questions which I couldn't find going through the posts.

I have a planted tank of some 180 litres with six medium sized discus which I feed 3-4 times a day with various foods to try to make them grow. My filter and heater is a Eheim Professional circulating 700l/h designed for a tank of my size.

1/ with the water changes, I currently only have time to take the lid off and suck the debris out once a week for a 40-50% water change. It takes me about 40 minutes. My understanding is that this should be more often, but I just don't have the time (I'm studying for my basic physician exams, this is the post med school, extra hard stuff).

Would it still be beneficial for the fish if I just suck the water out, without siphoning the stuff at the bottom of the tank, and puting more water back in? This would take 10 minutes and I could do this every day, and still do a more extended clean once a week.

2/ As it is a planted tank with driftwood, do I need to clean under the wood? All this seems to do is stir up a heap of stuff and make my wood flake. I never used to move the wood, and my other fish (not discus) still thrived, but I've become paranoid about cleanliness since getting the discus.

I understand that going BB is probably the best way, but for me it would take a lot of joy out of keeping an aquarium.

Thanks in advance for your help.

[Carol_Roberts]

I would say the most important thing right now is to study and pass your exams.

Leaving uneaten food and feces in the tank all week and under the driftwood until it disolves is obviously not the best course of action. Eventually poor water quality will impact the health of your discus.

Yoru gravel must really be full of mulm of it takes you 40 minutes to siphon a 45 gallon tank. I find tank cleaning relaxing. Perhaps you could devote 20 minutes to it each day. Clean as mush gravel as you can in that time (including under the driftwood) and refill. Pumps and hoses will make refills a snap.

Using a long hose to drain into the kitchen sink, bathtub or out the back door will speed water removal too

[Willie]

It becomes a question of priorities:

1. Have great looking discus
2. Have great looking tank
3. Passing your exams

Unfortunately, these priorities conflict. So, you'll have to rank them. As a parent, I strongly urge you to put (3) first. :D

The fact of the matter is, you won't have great looking discus when making small water changes in a planted tank. Just decide whether (1) or (2) is more important, and the decision becomes obvious. If your second priority is (2), you may want to consider swapping discus for more tolerant fish.

Hope you'll become a great doctor!

Willie

P.S. I'm amazed that the Aquaclear can maintain the syphon with the tank half empty.

[jaydoc]

When I was in medical training, I found working with my fish a relaxing break from the grind. Never the less, time is at a premium. I sold off all but one aquarium and did not "gear up" again until well into private practice. You might consider making that tank bare bottom to simplify maintainance until you are done with your training? Something like Carol's kitchen setup maybe? As you know, delayed gratification is part of the deal in medicine but it goes faster than you think. Hang in there. You definitely need an outlet for stress and fish work great. Just simplify and streamline for a while?
Cary D. Murphy MD

[Himbo]

thanks for all the replies.

willie:
1/ i am already a great doctor! ;)
2/ i already have good looking discus!!! (lets hope they stay that way)

this is what i've decided to do - i've gone out and bought a 20 meter hose so I can pump water out of the laudry tap, and another one that is 10m so I can water the garden with the waste water - no more buckets for me! this saves me about 10 mintues of time. i'm happy to change the water twice a week, as it should only take me about 1hr in total.

i know the people here may get worried about me getting the water straight from the tap, but we seem to have pretty good water here where i live, and the ph doesnt seem to fluctuate very much.

once again, thanks for all the suggestions, they were really helpful in making up my mind.

[Dane]

If you are only cleaning the bottom once a week, it is only a matter of time before you start having disease problems. Twice a week is the minimum imo.

You can get away with only cleaning twice a week if you understock the tank and feed lightly. 20 gallons per Discus is a good number.

All that poop and uneaten food decomposing in the gravel will create a huge BOD. This will stress your Discus.

Changing water without getting the poop and uneaten food out of the system is wasted time imo.

[Wolf_Mek]

Personally, I would think that 3X a week water changes would be plenty. When you have time, siphon your gravel, when you don't, just do the water column. Even when changing just the water, you are helping your fish by removing nitrates and growth inhibiting hormones that fish produce. You could also add a HOB filter which might help collect more mulm and keep your gravel cleaner. Then, when you do a water change, rinse off the filter cartridge with tank water.

HTH

[Carol_Roberts]

No, Dane is correct. You have to keep the bottom clean to maintain discus health.

Picture a raw hamburger patty sitting on the bottom of your tank. All the water changes in the world are not going to stop it from decomposing, growing mold and bacteria. You have to remove the solids.

The job of your filter is to convert the liquid waste from ammonia to nitrITe and then to nitrAte - which you can remove with water changes.

[Wolf_Mek]

Well, I dunno. I have sand and don't worry about it.

I do know though, that in a planted tank, your plants should be helping out with that... better filtration also helps out with that problem.


I might also add that the majority of that good bacteria lives in your gravel, especially if things have been building up there. All of the sudden making it spick and span is going to remove a ton of that bacteria and could lead to an ammonia spike. Plants also do make using of this debris, indirectly. The detrification bacteria provide aenorbic and aerobic zones that the plants use.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that you shouldn't vacuume....

[steve s]

If you vac food every day with a set up like Carol's it will take you
only a few min to vac and refill. Try to change water and vac good at
as often as you have time, but at least once a week.

[mattrox]

Vaccuuming gravel should not kill/remove too much bacteria. They will be stuck firm. You might reduce the population but with tropical temperature and exponential growth they replace themselves quickly anyway. You just need them there, it is the getting them there in the 'cycle' is the time consuming part.

Besides, a good filter will grow more bacteria if the gravel has less. The filter will cope with the bioload if the debris is removed.

Look at what surgeons do to clean the bacteria off their arms.... Lots of detergent and scrubbing!

Can someone please point me to a reference about Growth Inhibiting Hormone that discus produce? I keep hearing it bandied about but no-one can give be more information. Urban myth?

[ronrca]

I would like to perhaps clarify some 'myths' about benificial bacteria that helps with the nitrogen cycle. Plz, Im not meaning to be critical, just helpful! ;)

majority of that good bacteria lives in your gravel Just like every living organism, bacteria will float around (beginning of the cycle) and search for places with the highest or most occuring place that has available food and 02! If we think about those 2 factors, where is the one place in our tanks that has the greatest access to food (ammonia, nitrite) and 02? Well, that place is by far your filter therefore, the majority of the bacteria will be located in the filter media of your filter hence why it is not good to clean you filter media daily (except prefilter media). Im not saying that there is NO bacteria in your gravel because yes there is but not the majority and besides, Id rather have the majority bacteria in my filter so I can keep my gravel clean anyways.

Keeping gravel clean is essential and very important. Uneaten food, feces, plant matter, etc will fall into the gravel and start to decay. Decay is done also by bacteria however they may not be 'good' bacteria therefore you may increase risk of disease. Decay can also raise ammonia levels as the bacteria responsible for decay produce ammonia.

Denitrification! I will not go into detail about denitrification. In order for the denitrification process to take place, the must be a lack of 02! This will take place deep in the gravel bed and it is something you dont want in your planted tank as it can produce harmful gases like hydrogen sulfide plus nitrite/ammonia.

Depending on your fish and the volume of food, it will depend on how much food and feces gather in the gravel. It you feed a lot, I would vacuum everyday with wc!

[slicksta]

If you feed dry foods such as pellets, bits, flake and freeze dried you may be able to go with your current plan. I do 30-40% changes weekly with no problems in a gravel and driftwood tank(fake plants). I too have very stable tap. I don't even declor' anymore.
I agree your tank has to be clean.
but the antiseptic conditions that most create are not necessary for adult discus. IMHO they are creating the discus in a bubble...now what fun is that.

but thats just me....
John