Central Wet-Dry or Drip System?

[CanadianGuy]

I'm debating between which setup I want to use. It will be for either 4 75s, 4 90s or some combination of the 2. Each tank will be drilled(tho I'm not sure if I'll drill the back or the bottom) I've been looking at past threads and can see pros and cons with each method.

If I go drip I will use sediment, carbon filters and a mixing valve before the drip emitters. This saves on the cost of building the filter itself, the pump and some plumbing. Cheap, and easy...not as good as true w/c, water isn't aged.

If I go central wet-dry I can run a heater in the sump, which makes things easier. Plus I save on utilities and water. More expensive initially, more complicated to set-up....Cheaper in the long run.

I just want to see what people are using and how it's working out for them.

Thanks!

almost forgot...this will be used as a growout setup.

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Nothing beats a good wet /dry filter!


Thats How I grow the big Guys ;)
hth
Cary Gld!

[CanadianGuy]

I've been up all night researching this too. I pretty much came to the same conclusion...and Cary must be doing something right!! You sure it's just the wet/dry filter?? ;)

Thanks Cary...again! hehe

[CARY_GLdiscus]

;)

[tony1313]

Couldn't you go with both(wet/dry & drip)?
;D
Tony

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Cary, what are the pro's and con's of a drip system?? I thought you have a drip system for your setup?

-Ryan

[CARY_GLdiscus]

I do!

But I only use it when away! Depending How much $ you have and how much You want to waste a 1/2Gal Drip or even 1Gal A hour drip really does nothing! If You think about how fast the digestion works on a discus and how Much food we feed them Even a 2Gal drip a hour will not turn the water over fast enough.

To anyone thinking a drip will stop! W/Cs or Cleaning has another thing comeing. After about 10 days the bioload starts to build up while the drip is running. Soon after problems will
start to settle in like Bacteria and Toxins. Its kind of like a under gravel filter system. Some think you can add them to Your tank and never bother with them again! The truth is without
Getting Your Hose out and Your hands wet Both are a time Bomb waiting to Happen

hth
Takecare
Cary Gld!

[CanadianGuy]

I would assume that would go for a wet/dry filter as well...it seems that nothing with discus is set it and forget it!

Cary,
It seems that most breeders...yourself included...have their tanks drilled on the bottom and use stand pipes as overflows. Is there a reason for this? I can order the tanks with a hole drilled anywhere I want, and I have no personal preference. I just want whatever is best for the fish. The guy at the LFS said that when it comes to overflows it doesn't matter where they are located. I want to get your opinion before I rely on someone who just wants to sell tanks.

I've never had tanks drilled before. It's $25 to have them drilled at the factory....I can have it done locally for less than half of that...BUT at my own risk! Is it worth the extra money to just have the factory do it?

[JeffreyRichard]

Let's analyze the purpose of water changes and filters ...

In a closed system, fish produce toxins through respiration and defecation. Add to this the decay from excess food ...

The primary negative event is creation of ammonia as a result of respiration (the biggest contributor), defecation and left over food. Ammonia is an very toxic compound. Since respiration and defication are continuous processes, ammonia is constantly being added to the closed system.

Now factor in the "nitrogen cycle". Nitrifying Bacteria (nitrosomonas) utilize the ammonia and converts this to Nitrite. Nitrite is also toxic, but less so than Ammonia. Other nitrifying bacteria (nitrobacter) convert nitrite to nitrate ... which is less toxic BUT still harmful to fish in high amounts.

Keep in mind that other metabolic substances/compounds are added to the water by fish as a natural course.

So the problem becomes how does one get rid of the "bad stuff"?

Water changes are the most complete way to eliminate nitrogen and other DISSOLVED metabolics from the system. A drip system allows continuous replacement of water and is an effective way to remove dissolved substances that accumulate over time.



To anyone thinking a drip will stop! W/Cs or Cleaning has another thing comeing. After about 10 days the bioload starts to build up while the drip is running. Soon after problems will start to settle in like Bacteria and Toxins. Its kind of like a under gravel filter system. Some think you can add them to Your tank and never bother with them again! The truth is without Getting Your Hose out and Your hands wet Both are a time Bomb waiting to HappenTakecare
Cary Gld!


I agree with Cary's point ... to a point. A drp system HELPS extend the time between tank cleanings ... a good drip flow will minimize the dissolved substances in the water, but will NOT remove new sources of decay et al (such as left over food). That is why you need to "clean" tanks regularly. Now, I run a drip on my tanks every other day, and run about 100% the volume of each tank through the drip. I can go a week without a good cleaning on my tanks (though my breeders and heavily stocked tanks get cleanings more frequently). So, if you want to minimize water change effort and extend time between cleanings, a drip system is great.

Now, unless you're running a constant drip, you need biological or chemical filters to minimize the real toxic ammonia and nitrite. I use sponge filters ... they provide enough surface area to maintain adequate bacteria load to filter my tanks (at least it appears so ... never measured it???). A wet/dry is a tremendous nitrifying filter ... most are designed with tremendous surface area for bacteria culturing and integrates high levels of oxygen into the filter ... necessary to reduce Ammonia to Nitrite to Nitrate (the process is called Oxidation ...). Some wet/drys are so efficient that they are called Nitrate factories in the reef world ...

So ... is a wet/dry better or is a drip system better? You need to define what your goals are. There is a combination of filtering and water changes that meet your needs ... I would suggest that wet/dry is great where you CAN'T do w/cs often and need to extend the life of the water in the system ... drip is great for easy, frequent water changes (but you still need some filtration), and if you have NO filtration you will need a constant water change system.

Incidently, a central system allows for the centralization of infrastructure (filter, heater, water change point ...) BUT adds risk as water from all tanks are mixed ... if there is a problem in one tank it will become a problem in ALL tanks ...

Just some thoughts ...

Jeff

[CanadianGuy]

I think what system will work best for you depends on your situation. I do have the time to do frequent water changes, but the more I think about it the more I see drip systems as a rather large waste of money and resources. For those that have a large amount of tanks, a drip just isn't practical on a large scale. To be efficent you need to have a drip of 2 or more gph...with large tanks or many tanks those gallons add up really quickly! To add to that you STILL need to do frequent large manual water changes. Plus you have to heat each tank seperately...heat and energy that then goes down the drain! Between the costs of electricity and all the water you'll go through I don't see how a drip can be used efficently on a large setup. On the other hand for a smaller setup it seems like the better way to go.

For me I think it's worth the added risk of something spreading to the other tanks on a central system. If I keep on top of the fishes health that hopefully won't happen, but if it does I'll deal with it. I would also like to build the system so that I can isolate a particular tank for treatment or to quarantine some fish if needed.
Just some of what I've gleamed from the help that those wiser than myself have shared with me!

Life is like a box of chocolate. Drip system is like a hole in your pocket constantly dripping your money away. A wet/dry is like having a zipper on your pocket. You can run many tanks in the system for the cost of 2 tanks. such as heaters, air pumps, electricity, water change and labour for cleaning filters and wiping glasses.
Jimmy.

[Lauren]

I've been thinking I was going to get a drip system (asap) and trying to take into consideration other ways to do it. Right now I'm doing daily water changes on at least 3-4 tanks over 20gal each one at a time with a python, I have all the time in the world right now, but that might change later, more that I dont feel I should be wasting x number of hours(and the hours add up quickly when you go from draining/filling 3-4 tanks w/ a python to all 11 tanks I have setup at the time being - did I mention I still have about 10-15 empty tanks waiting to be setup lol)

Also should mention, when we first moved up here the water co. immediately got on our a$$es at putting a new digital water meter in, we figured if it aint broke dont fix it & let them complain. I think we figured out WHY they've been so grumpy about it, we got our first water bill last week & it was $24 dollars and some change, a big difference than our city water bill of $300 and I'm using at least 4x the water that I used to at our old house.
I havent been told what the electricity bill has been but I have a feeling it hasnt been affected much. The room has its own zone of heating - we dont know HOW its heated(whether electric or oil), as it doesnt have any baseboards its quite possible it has radiant heating (I always go in there when my feet are cold, the cement is warm & always warms em right up), so I crank the heat to 80, this leaves any tanks without any heaters at a steady 74F-76F (angelfish) Any tanks that need heaters have them (discus, some of my angelfish). Course the bill will go up the more discus tanks I setup since they need to be heated much more.

If I setup a drip, I knew it wouldnt be a set it & forget it type of thing, Weekly tank cleanings & large W/Cs would be needed, saving money is a big thing, but so far it doesnt seem like I have to worry about it as much as other people do. And, I dont even know much about central wet/dry filters (like almost nothing!)

Cary, I know you change mass amounts of water with or without a drip, do you do it manually (or have someone do it manually) one at a time, what methods do you use to make it easier or less time consuming?

So far, anythings better than bucket brigade though! lol

Lauren

[CanadianGuy]

Who knew Jimmy was so profound! ;D

I have seen some of his fish in person...and own some as well. If those are the results I can expect than wet/dry here I come!!! :thumbsup:

[CARY_GLdiscus]

WET/DRY ;)


Nice write up Jeff,
However if Your ph is High! it will never fall with a drip! This could be very bad with higher Ph tanks. This would make everything in the tank more Toxic over time. IME changeing water is better then dripping it in. Better for the fish and better for your pocket

[CanadianGuy]

If I go with a standpipe for my overflow. Is there anywhere in particular I should put it? I was just thinking on one side far enough from the glass to make cleaning easy. What do you think?

[CARY_GLdiscus]

I Think am Thinking What your Thinking ;)

[Lauren]

Cary, so how do you do your W/Cs then? ;D

[GulfCoastDiscus]

I have an automated system but I still siphon 20+% everyday and run the system to refill the tanks till it overflows. It's run on a timer and comes on for 3 hours then shuts off. I still have sponge filters on all the tanks. I guess it's partial automated. I siphon all the waste daily but I don't need to keep an eye on it when refilling. The timer automatically shut the sysytem off and give the storage tank to refill. I use approx. 250gal a day and all my tanks combined equals 840 gal.
I guess I'm combining the best of both worlds.

Dan

[CanadianGuy]

I think I have a plan then! 8)


Better for the fish and better for your pocket That's EXACTLY what I want!!

[CARY_GLdiscus]

With a hose silly LOL!



I can flush them out like a Toilet By forceing in new water Automaticly. Or suck them out like I do daily with a hose and a bucket. If am real busy I can drip them for days. Or if I want I can remove the bulk heads at 50% and just do a water/Change By hand.

Lots of ways are better then one! Just like heads and team work!

hth
Cary Gld!

[Lauren]

Cary,
lol
I thought there wouldve been an easier way O well lol After about 1 hour of using a python I go a little batty, but I dont have any overflows, so the python sucks out the water (this takes about 2-3x as long as filling :( )

When I was @ Jeffery Richards I saw this great suction-hose-PVC thing he had, and I meant to ask him about it, its shaped like an upside down U & was attached to a hose. It didnt loose the siphon as he switched it from tank to tank, also it seemed to drain the tanks alot faster than my python did. Can someone elighten me? But because he was siphoning I didnt get to see his drip system in action, but his hatchery was pretty awesome, I was very impressed

Starting to get more & more ideas here...

So how big would the wet/dry filter box have to be for a small-medium hatchery? Right now I only have about 400ish gallons worth in tanks(I could be a bit off though), and not all of them setup. I plan on expanding however on an as needed basis until I run out of room - or I get a dope slap lol and how would you centralize it?

[CARY_GLdiscus]

its all about the size of the hose or Hole in Your tank


The Bigger The area The more water it will pull.

hth
Cary Gld!

[susankay1]

And faster is not always better, specially when fry are involved. Fast, high volume is great when its just 2 fish and no babies, but when there are little bitty ones in the tank, they can get in that syphon hose faster than you can blink. We are thinking about setting up a wet/dry drip combination for the basement very soon.

[CARY_GLdiscus]

;D

[CanadianGuy]

Lauren,

If I understand correctly the size of your filter is directly related to how many bio-balls you need to have. How many bio-balls you need to have depends on your total gallonage(is that a word? *lol*). I believe it's somewhere in the area of 1g of bio-balls to 30-40g of water?

I'm trying to figure this out myself so I can get started on my system!

[JeffreyRichard]

WET/DRY ;)

However if Your ph is High! it will never fall with a drip! This could be very bad with higher Ph tanks. This would make everything in the tank more Toxic over time. IME changeing water is better then dripping it in. Better for the fish and better for your pocket


Drip systems only work where water chemistry is adequate to begin with. My pH is very high (9.5) but this is artificial ... the water company adds lime to the water to preserve the pipes. pH drops to below 7.5 in my tanks because water is soft (120 PPM).

In my situation, water is the cheapest commodity in my operation. So massive water changes make sense. Drip works for me ...

[Moon]

I have a home made wet dry with 15g of bioballs on a 125g tank. Works well, I had this system for about 10 years with no problems.
For a central system a sand filter has huge surface area and takes very little space. I am thinking of installing one of these. They have a technical name, I can't think of it.

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Come on jeff,
Are You telling us you only use a drip to change water? thats funny My pH is 7.5 and My PPM are also 120 My kh is 7 and also My Gh Your ph should hold at 7.5 if this is true!

I would love to see pics of Your Discus fry under this kind of set up. and would also love to see some adults and not the ones you just bought. jeff you been around a long time and lots of people have seen your discus. from what i hear I'll keep to myself SORRY but am not after friend ship I BEEN SENT TO HELP THE HOBBY FROM FICTION TO FACTS.

PLEASE TAKE CARE

Cary GLD!

P.S ALSO 120PPM IS NOT SOFT WATER ITS MODRATE!

[Lauren]

Cary, I saw Jeff changing water not using a drip (well emptying at least) I think he uses the drip to refill em though, but I wasnt there long enough to find out lol

PS Cary, did you get my recent email (within like the last 2-3 days) I have MSN email issues, sometimes they dont go through or I dont get incoming emails ???

[CARY_GLdiscus]

Hello Lauren,
Am not sure I was out of town the last 3 days just got back in town. MAN AM LOST IN EMAILS LOL!

[alex_m]

Hello,

IMO there is now way you are going to raise discus in a drip.

I say it because i have tried it and it failed.

Discus develop flaring gills, holes around the head and you

can see that the fish does not put much size.

I dripped 2 gal, three gal etc. it does not work for me.

I am at pH 7.5 and 1000ms.

JMO

alex

[CanadianGuy]

moon,

It's called a fluidized bed filter. They offer a HUGE biological surface area compared to bio-balls. I was wondering about using one myself, but I've heard that if you lose power the sand bed loses its fluidization and can become impacted. Then when the power comes back on the water pump isn't able to force water thru the impacted sand and it burns out, but I've also heard that this rarely happens. It's definately something to look into tho.

Cary what do you think?

[Moon]

Thanks Canadianguy. I had a senior moment and could not remember the name. I know a lot of African Chiclid guys that use fluidized bed filters as a central system. It seems to work well with biological filtration. Most of them survived the Ontario power blackout in August of last year.

[CanadianGuy]

Good to know. Luckily I didn't lose any fish either.

Apparently after 2 hours there is some die-off of bacteria and after 30 hours you lose it all. Seems to have a fairly large safety margin. I'll look into it some more.

[tom.s]

I still say a hoses is best ;D

[jaydoc]

Canadian guy, as regardws where to drill your tanks, see the thread about the fishroom of discus KC. (In photo gallery) He has hs tanks drilled on the back, fairly low. the bulkhead has an elbow with a stand pipe that can be rotated. When time for a water change, he turns all of the standpipes partially sideways to drain whatever amount of water he wants, then turns them all back upright and fills his system. Only has to use the python to suck sediment. The pictures make more sense than this explanation. Hve a look if you haven't already
Cary, the lesser

[GulfCoastDiscus]

I have mine tanks drilled the same with an 90 deg. elbow which can rotate.

Dan

[JeffreyRichard]

Hello,

IMO there is now way you are going to raise discus in a drip.

I say it because i have tried it and it failed.



Alex ... I'm pretty sure you meant "NO way you are going to raise discus ... "

That's a very general statement that applies to a very specific situation (yours) ... I've raise thousands of discus on a drip system. I know of more successful breeders who also use drip.

I'm not sure why your situation failed, but I'd be willing to bet it wasn't the drip system, unless you've had to radically prepair/alter your tap water before you now do your water changes. Even so, if you set up a system with a big vat and prepair the water in the vat, THEN drip it into the tanks, you shouldn't have a problem.

What is it about your drip system you think caused the problem?

[GulfCoastDiscus]

Hi Jeff,
Mine is automated and the water is first stored a 330gal overnight with heat and aeration. A timer automatically turns pump on for 2 hrs. 2x a day AM and PM. I wouldn't say it's a drip sytem cuz nothing is dripped in. It more of a flush system. I still syphon the debris off the bottom twice a day but it only takes 10 minutes on 20 tanks versus 1:45 min.
My storage tank automatically refill. Now I can go on vacation. :)

Is my system be considered a drip system?

Dan

[JeffreyRichard]

Dan ... I consider any system that exchanges old water with new/clean water a drip system ... new water in forces old water out ...

Typically it is done in a drip mannor so there isn't a tremendous volume being cahnged over a short period of time. Water source can be TAP WATER (it's own water pressure ...) or prepared water that is pumped into the system. The attributes of any drip system would be :
plumbing system for new water IN plumbing system for waste water OUT an overflow device on each tank (either drilled w/bulkhead, or overflow box hanging on the tank

[JeffreyRichard]

Come on jeff,
Are You telling us you only use a drip to change water?



I drain 1/2 to 3/4 the tank once a week (maybe twice) to vaccum the gunk (technical term ... ) out. Otherwise all I do is turn the water on from my tap, make sure the temperature is about 83 to 85 degrees, and let the water drip into each tank. Do this every other day for 4-5 hours



thats funny My pH is 7.5 and My PPM are also 120 My kh is 7 and also My Gh Your ph should hold at 7.5 if this is true!



Not sure what your driving at with this comment ... I don't check my parameters a lot ... but last time I checked they were as I stated. I'm not a chem professional, but my process is working. The pH drops to a reasonable level in the tanks. And I haven't "NOTICED" significant pH fluctuations ... not to say they aren't happening but I don't monitor very much. Now, I do know I have very little KH in my tap water ... I have to add calcium and magnesium to my planted tank ...





I would love to see pics of Your Discus fry under this kind of set up. and would also love to see some adults and not the ones you just bought. jeff you been around a long time and lots of people have seen your discus.



If I could take better pixs, would love to share ...




from what i hear I'll keep to myself SORRY but am not after friend ship I BEEN SENT TO HELP THE HOBBY FROM FICTION TO FACTS.

PLEASE TAKE CARE

Cary GLD!


Say what??? Again, I'm not sure I understand your post ... since were offering opinions here to all, please be more specific about your meaning ... I have no problem if you dissagree with my methodology or approach, but I can't tell if you aren't believing that I'm able to raise discus as I described or what ...




P.S ALSO 120PPM IS NOT SOFT WATER ITS MODRATE!


OK ... 120 PPM is moderate, though if you equate the reading to that on standard hardness test (such as Tetra) the documentation says I have soft water (though boarderline ...

[CanadianGuy]

While having the tank drilled on the back with the 90degree elbow and a standpipe may make draining the tank more convenient, it will complicate things for me since I'll be using a central system. I would have to turn off the filter and turn a bunch of valves as well as run seperate plumbing for the water to go straight to the drain rather than to the sump. I'll just use a water pump(if I can find one) to drain...no more python for me! ;D

[CanadianGuy]

What size of pipe should I be using for the plumbing? This is for 4 75g tanks. I need to order the tanks tomorrow and have to tell tell them what size hole I want drilled for the standpipe.

Standard 1". drain and 1/2" refill.
Jimmy.

[CanadianGuy]

Thanks Jimmy. Good thing I didn't listen to the guy at the LFS...he said I should go with 1.5".

That's inner diameters. The outside diameter can varies depending where you get it. Home depot schedule 40 for electrical ducts are larger in outside diameter. The white ducts and connectors for gardening ponds are even bigger. They are half the cost of the real thing and without a glaze to protect the raw material from sipping out. I'm using both. I prefer the real thing for aqurium use which is darker charcoal grey in color. Spend a little bit more and have a peace of mind.
Jimmy.

[CanadianGuy]

Ok so I should get 1.5" holes then.
I don't mind spending more money if it's a safer product.

[aggie_67]

The engineer in me has to speak out. Maybe just definitions, but am a believer in using the correct terms especially when telling someone what size to drill his tank. There is "piping" and there is "tubing" won't even go into conduit or drain pipe which is even different again. Pipe is what is usually used and purchased at Home Depot, etc. White pipe is standard grade (schedule 40) and gray is heavy wall (schedule 80.) They both have the same outside diameter which is about 1.26" if I remember right (sold all my books when I retired.) Tubing goes by outside diameter, 1" tubing is 1" diameter. Tubing is normally not used except they do have a tubing system with special fittings etc which is getting more common for water lines, not sure if it is up to code yet.

But the real question, what size hole you drill, is not determined by the pipe size, it is the bulkhead fitting size!! Need to figure out what size pipe you are going to use, then get the bulkhead fitting for it, the drill the tank as req'd for the bulkhead fitting.

[CanadianGuy]

I need 1.75" holes for the bulkheads that fit 1" pipe.

The exact size of the hole is what I was unsure about. I knew that 1" pipe wasn't 1" OD. I figured everything out and have ordered the tanks with proper bulkheads.

Great post aggie,
It's easy to get confused about pipe and tubes and the differing measurements.

But don't forget there is grey schedule 40 pipe as well.

Canadian:
Not 1.75 just simply 1". Go to home depot and check out their 1" schedule 40 for electrical conduit and get their 1" fitting bulkhead both male and female for under $3.00. They don't sell elbows and TEE's. Big Al or any Plastic pipe company will sell them. Double glass if under 1/4". to prevent cracking the glass when tightening the fittings. Check ou this complany and you will have an idea of all the fittings. Go to Rigid pipe and fittings. I've got everytingi I need from them. Come to Toronto to get it.

http://www.jjdownsplastics.com/index.html
Jimmy.

[CanadianGuy]

Jimmy,
I went thru 40 pages of their catalog and I couldn't find any bulkheads. I've also had trouble finding bulkheads of any type at home depot. I had to go to a few stores before I could find something to plumb 2 water barrels together. This town is terrible for finding ANYTHING! Ask for a certain part and they look at you like you're asking for something that you've made up. Bulkheads, 1/2" to 1/4" reducers, and self-priming pumps are figments of my imagination apparently! ::)

Either way it's too late. I've ordered the tanks with 1 3/4" holes and the bulkheads for them to run 1" ID pipe. If it's bigger than I need it just gives me more options if I want to do something different later on. I wouldn't have minded saving some money, but as long as it works it's worth it.

You can't find it. Just look for connector with 1" male on one side and non-thread for the other end. and a female with non-thread on the other side. Schedule 40 pipe fittings. You can twist and turn whatever you want with their fittings combinations. You will find the same connectors in home depot electrical section for both 1/2" and 1" " Bulkhead" for our term. Except the TEE's and elbows. If you don't mind the color difference. These can be found in a gardening pond section in White. Not light grey. It cost a lot more just becasue they are white and the home gardener are rich. They must have a home start with. Adding a pond is extra........??.
Jimmy.

[alex_m]

Hello,

mine didn't work because of increased bioload. All the fish

showed bacterial infections.

There is no way you are going to have a spawn of 100-150

babies in a 60 gallon, feed them heavy and raise them to

quality fish on a drip.

JMO

alex