Why do we fully submerse our heaters???

[Very Fishy]

I realize that most of us fully submerse our heaters. But why? Just recently I had 2 new heaters in a row short out on me. Caused me to rethink why I do this. I have now decided to no longer fully submerse my heaters. Why take the risk of sending an electrical current through my tank? Heaters are not the most reliable pieces of equipment. I use to think that it was better to keep the heater submerged below the water line during water changes. But is this really necessary? The heater should be unplugged during maintenance for safety reasons (read the heater instructions) and the temperature extremes are not that great that the glass will crack. What other pros and cons are there?

[Goldfish_in_a_bowl]

Hi Warren,
Uh... I DUNNO..... :-[
I think... if I remember right.. I did/do so I could get a even tempeture through out my tanks? ???
Did you just wake up this morning and think.. Hmmmm I am going to make Karen sit and think.. H)(* if I know... Uh.. Cuz I just do... :-[ :-[ Is this a Test?? :waaa: :waaa:

Instructions: are those the Papers I go dig out of the trash after Freaking out because I have tried for three days to put something together? ;)

I know... I am no help... but I am trying to get Past FULL MEMBER here... I don't feel full.. Kinda Hungry actually.

Take care! ;D

Karen :gorgeous:

Wooo Hooo just noticed THIS post got me out of FULL member! Now I am SENIOR! >:( >:( NOT a word I like to see around my name! what the...
Hey al, Does this mean I get Discounts on my meals and stuff now?? Special Parking?... senior club membership? Free Bingo Passes?? What? Going to go get out that Polyester suit with the attached belt and white Patent leather shoes....LMAO

K: Think heat rises up to the thermostat and turns it off prematurly if it sits vertical. This will get you thinking.
Jimmy

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

The main reason why people keep their heaters fully submerged is because of the large water changes we do. It can become a hassle to unplug the heater before every w/c so it doesnt break, so we just turn them sideways and below the 50% point in the tank so that they are in water at all times. Plus, you might forget to plug the heater back in once your done (done that several times when I was starting out). Hope this answers your question.

-Ryan

In additon. Your Senior red goldfish cannot lay eggs on it.
Jimmy.

[slicksta]

so there harder to adjust...... ;D

GF in a B'
....your on that stuff again

[ronrca]

I agree with Ryan! Ive had heaters explode in the vertical position while doing wc's. The glass that is not under water heats up as water dissapates heat better/faster than air and when doing the wc especially splashes cause the heater glass to explode. I have been switching to titanium now! ;)


new heaters in a row short out on me. Can you expand on the shorting out? Do you mean that the heater was stuck 'on'?


Why take the risk of sending an electrical current through my tank?
Need not worry about this! If a heater explodes, there still is not electrical connection to the water. If this be the case, these heaters will not get CSA and CEC approval.

[Very Fishy]

"Can you expand on the shorting out? Do you mean that the heater was stuck 'on'? "

The seals on two new Rena Cal heaters both leaked and the heater filled with water and shorted out.

"Why take the risk of sending an electrical current through my tank?
Need not worry about this! If a heater explodes, there still is not electrical connection to the water. If this be the case, these heaters will not get CSA and CEC approval"

One of these heaters I had in my storage tank. The way I found out the seal had leaked is when I put my hand in the water,I received an electrical shock. So much for CSA approval!

"Think heat rises up to the thermostat and turns it off prematurly if it sits vertical. This will get you thinking.
Jimmy"

Good point but this would only apply if you have sponge filters with very limited circulation in the tank. I have an AC500 and a canister filter that moves the water around quite well.

[stygian7]

I keep mine submerged because it's in the sump. My sump level varies significantly with time due to the way the auto water changer is set up. If I couldn't submerge it, I'd have heaters starting fires (they're titanium, so they won't explode.
-Kevin

P.S. I'm really pleased with my new heater from jehmco. Industrial controller and 1000w titanium probe. Expensive, but I think worth it. Have you ever seen a 1000w probe-it's rediculous!

[Goldfish_in_a_bowl]

Jimmy,
Leave MY MIND ALONE!! >:( :banghead: :fried: ;)

Ryan,
Thanks for changing the (my) name to protect the innocent! :-[ ;D That is another reason I have my heaters submerged but I always wipe them and the tank down so I have them horizontal while I do water changes anyway, Something about that nose when they Crack and you say...... OH DARNIT! ::)

Slick,
GOOD ONE! That is probably the "real" reason if ya think about it... Why ya Want some?? ;) ;) :-* You ask me one more time and You won't be able to deny it Annnnnny more! :P :P :P

Ron,
Great info. I was thinking I had a heater Break and I got a electrical shock in the water.. Now I am thinking maybe it was when I was pluging in the Ghost decoration on the lawn in a rain storm.. I am not sure So.. I will have to get back to you on that... No really I think I did .. From a Heater??

7,
OMG!! are you kidding me! do I have to hear "TITANIUM TITANIUM TITANIUM" in my fish world now!? First with My Cars.. Sleds....Golf clubs.... :waaa: :waaa: :waaa: I see the word Titanium and they might as well say Priced completly out of reason! DAMG now I am going to have to do a fish supply search to read up on the Newest thing hitting the market.. for the last six months I file my Fish supply mags the same place I do my bills... Can't buy anything...don't want to see what I can't have.. Can't Pay this.. TRASH BIN! ;) ;D Thanks now I have to check it out! >:(

Take care
Karen :gorgeous:

[Dave C]

The reasons we submerge them have been discussed. I mainly do it so they don't get exposed when I change water. If I was concerned about them shorting I would get GFI plugs in the fishroom, which I have. I would also unplug them when I put my hands in the water, regardless of whether they are vertical or horizontal. If they crack you will get a shock no matter how you hang them. But I don't unplug them as I'd never remember to plug them in again. And I'd have to unplug them when I fed the fish too as I usually get my hands in doing that.

The reason they get so hot when they are exposed is that they don't have the ability to get the surrounding air up to temp so they don't turn off. And the water has the ability to draw the heat off of the heater, something the air can't do. No matter whether they are glass or titanium, they will still overheat. My titanium heaters were sitting vertical in my tank & fairly high but I didn't worry because they were titanium. Then I noticed that when I refilled the tank there was a sizzling sound as the heater became submerged. That much heat can't be good for the fish, imagine if they brushed up against the heater.

So mine are all low in the tank, completely under water. My GFI has never tripped and I am still alive. Probably tempting fate but my fish would die if I continually forgot to plug the heaters back in. Just a risk of fishkeeping I guess.

[stygian7]

I like the titanium because the thermostat is separate from the heating unit. I can't tell you how many heaters I've had go bad because of the condensation inside the glass. You say priced beyond reason, but my fish are worth a lot more than a heater. I'm not going to skimp on something this important. That being said, just because it's titanium doesn't mean that it's good. I will never buy another Won Brothers Pro Heat heater (see here):
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=17598;st art=15

Hopefully this new heater will work well. Even at $139 it's worth it if it's reliable. It's already proved to be as accurate and precise as anything else I've tried.

[April]

the electrical shock thing is like the birds on the live wire .. they do not have one foot on the ground and on on the wire so they dont get fried. well..your fish dont have one fin on the ground and the rest in the water so they dont get affected if it cracks open. but..if you put your hand in..and standing on the ground..you WILL get a shock. i keep mine right on the bottom..as i have broken many when they were outa the water and then re-added the water. sizzle smoke crack. unplug.
also..another good reason is if they are vertical your fish will lay on them.
then..you will have fried eggs.
the heat is spread more evenly if sideways for sure.
some people believe it cant be good to have metal heaters in your tank??? metal..what is the possiblilities of the metal leaching and affecting the fish?? who knows...just a question.

[Goldfish_in_a_bowl]

HI Dave! :wave:
You always make sense. :P :P :P
Hope you are doing Well.

Stygian7
"You say priced beyond reason, but my fish are worth a lot more than a heater. I'm not going to skimp on something this important. "
Just making reference to the cost of Upgrading "anything" to titanium, not suggesting or was I saying I would skimp or assume someone should or would. certainly any fish (you'rs or mine) are worth what ever the cost was to ensure safety or quality of life. That is pretty much a given in any hobby or part of life, Ya just do what Needs to be done. ;D

Take care
:gorgeous:

You all miss the most important point. I save it for the senior gold fish. Since she is not thinking. I have to tell you then. Hidden inside the blue dial. It has 2 gaskets to stop the water getting into the tube, and a small hole for the stopper which you pop it out when calibrating the thermostat. My experience with 25 years of EBO usage. Heat and dry air will dry up the rubber rings and over times will cause leakage and condensation will form inside the tube. This will not only offset your calibration and will also activate the safety switch to turn off the heater. If you're not using your heater. Store them in a tank with water to keep the gasket moist and keep it seal tightly. The problem starts when you store your heater for a few months and fire it up again for your new tank. It will leak very slowly. Never buy used heater in auctions. Most will leak if the ex-owner had it out of water for a long time. HTH
Jimmy.

[ronrca]

:thumbsup:
Thanks for all the good info! Keep it up! ;)

Back to the electrial shock. If the seals do crack and allow water into the cable connection area, you have a problem. There isnt really anything you can do except for using a GFI and a ground rod in the tank. This is one reason I dont like the Ebo's anymore because of the missing ground connection (only 2 prong plug end rather than 3 prong plug end) thus rendering GFI useless unless you incorporate a ground rod. I recently received some Won Titanium heaters. So far they are excellant plus the ground connection (3 prong plug end).

I have had Ebo's bust but not electrical connection to the water as the heater element itself is just coils of wire that heat up when electricity is applied. I do not believe that they will conduct current but it is something to test.

I have been implementing sumps under my tanks where ever possible. This way the heater stay in the sump and I do not have to worry about the presented issues. Something to think about! ;)

[slicksta]

FYI
a GFI does NOT need a ground to operate..... :P
A GFI measures the unbalance in a circuit. If more current is going out than coming back then there is a leak of current and the GFI trips. That's why you make a neutral connection on a GFI breaker.......... ;D

...John

[ronrca]

Good point John!

If your heater is faulty and there is an electrical connection to water but there is no ground rod, there is no unbalance because the current is not flowing anywhere, there is no complete circuit except back to where it came from. Now stick your hand in, you get a shock and the GFI trips.

Now introduce a ground rod into the tank. If there is any electrical connection to the water, it will trip the GFI right away as the ground rod completes the circuit.

If the heater already has a ground (3 prong plug end), then you dont require the ground rod. This depends on how the ground wire is utilized though.

[Dave C]

I don't believe a sump will have any effect if your heater malfunctions. At least no effect in terms of the risk of electrocution. The water is flowing from the sump to the tank and back to the sump. The two hoses/pipes going to the tank are typically submerged below the water level and the flow of water completes the circuit. Therefore if you have stray voltage caused by a device in your sump you will feel it when you put your hand in the tank... it's no different then if the device was in the tank.

[ronrca]

Very good point Dave! This may be true typically however not in my case. Both water in and water out of the tank are not submerged rather overflow from the biofilter into the tank and overflow from the tank to mechanical filter then sump. Techanically, thru the water flowing it can complete a circuit but it much more difficult when water drips from the mechanical filter into the sump.

[FischAutoTechGarten]

because I bump everything around while siphoning detritus. heaters are going to end up falling out of their suction cups and ending up on the bottom eventually. why not just start them there.

[April]

i agree with odwyer. forget the suction cups..lay them on the bottom. i have it from a good authority that a well known great breeder in north america has his laying on the bottom also...so im in good company. :hat:

[Jason]

;Dmine float