Wet & Dry Filter on a show tank

[Benis]

Hello All,
I hope that I will not be boring anyone on this board with my questions and I hope some of you can give me yout thoughts on the whole thing :-[

I have a 125 gl show tank and that's all I allowed to have now. I hoping to get some discus from Cary very soon ;D Has anyone here ever used a wet and dry filter on their ??? If so, how do you feel about it ???

When I purchased my tank three 1/2 years ago, I was told that a w/d was the best you could have to run a big tank. The person who sold me the tank and the w/d was leaving the Discus hobby to go into salt water :-[ I have read as much as I could on this board, but does not see much topics about w/t ::)

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

wet/dry filters are very good for a discus tank. They convert the ammonia to nitrite and then into nitrate very quickly, which is good. I would run the wet/dry along with an Aquaclear 500 to keep the water clear. Depending upon the size of the wet/dry and the bioload, I would also add a hydro-sponge to the tank to provide extra bio filtration as a safe guard. BTW, just make sure you have a good prefilter on the wet/dry because you want to keep the bio balls as clean as possible to prevent any type of build up which will create anerobic zones within the filter.


-Ryan

[Benis]

Ryan,
It's amiracle 125 sl. Three years ago I ran it with with a uv/s and mag 250. I did my w/c with a product called seachem prime and I had a bag of seachem purigen and phosgard in the slump. My water was very clear and never cloudy. The only thing I did not like is when some of the food particles would get sucked up by the overflow box.

I want to do everything right and I know w/c is key. I'm glad I found this board and read so much about Cary. I was very depressed when my last fish did not look like what the breeder had swowing on his site. I thought it was me and I was willing to spend what ever to make the fish as close to a natural habitat. If we can buy them, and they do not ask us to, we should take care of them like supposed to just how we would want to be treated. Should I go and try to purchase more to add with the w/t ???

Thanks again Ryan for taking the time to read my post and answering :)

[David N]

I love wet/dry filters. I never have a problem with ammonia or nitrates when using wet/dry. The drawbacks are that you need another filter to polish the water and that the overhang box sucks up any floating food very quickly. Use a feeding ring to keep the food in one place until it sinks.

I don't think you need a sponge filter in a wet/dry tank. I only put a sponge filter in this type of setup in order to cycle it for another tank.

David N

[Benis]

David,
Would you say that I have enough to keep my set up going?

Thanks for the reply ;D

[David N]

I'm not sure what size that wet/dry is. The one I use on my 75g tank is about the size of 10g tank so I would use a larger size than that on 125g tank. I don't have the specs in front of me so I don't know how much water your mag250 pushes but for a 125g tank I would want to push at least 500 gph. The aquaclear for the sake of polishing the tank makes sense to me but you don't need it right away, especially if you don't go beyond 8-10 discus. If you're buying juvenille fish (~3 in) you definately won't need that aquaclear right away.

btw, Cary does have some great looking fish. Picked 6 from him 2 days ago. Great shape, great coloring, and eating like pigs.

David N

[Benis]

David,
I will not be using the mag 250 anymore. It was only being use to run the uv/s. My w/t has a mg pushing 500 gallons. I was thinking about getting a 700, but someone told me the Discus would not like all the hard flow in the tank. I hoping to get some 1" to 1"5 fry from Cary ;D

Someone on this board suggested I get an egg crate, so I did. I will be using it to divide the space since they will be so small, and will move it around has they start to grow ::) I want to stary small because I want to see how nature will take it's place with me feeding and the most important w/c ???

Most people may not agree, I enjoy seeing a baby fish grow to maturity and feel proud that I raised them. I have three kids and they are amazing and they want to be part of the fry's growing also ;D

[JeffreyRichard]

I want to do everything right and I know w/c is key. I'm glad I found this board and read so much about Cary. I was very depressed when my last fish did not look like what the breeder had swowing on his site. I thought it was me and I was willing to spend what ever to make the fish as close to a natural habitat. If we can buy them, and they do not ask us to, we should take care of them like supposed to just how we would want to be treated. Should I go and try to purchase more to add with the w/t ???

Thanks again Ryan for taking the time to read my post and answering :)


OK ... I'm a bit of a contrarian here. So take my opinion as you see fit ...

1st, a wet/dry filter is a very good filter in concept. They (generally) have the most area for converting ammonia to nitrite to nitrate, a do this very well. In fact, if you read the info provided by reef people, some will refer to W/Ds as Nitate Factories. This is where the problem lies ... most cichlids are intolorant of high Nitrate. They will become sick if exposed to high amounts for a prolong period of time. True, ammonia and nitrite are more immediate issues, and a W/D does a very good job managing these nitrogen components.

The simplist way of managing nitrates is WATER CHANGE. A wet/dry will not decrease the need to change water. So I'd plan accordingly.

I use hoemade wet/drys on large growout tanks (for angels, 250 gallons), for turtles, and for reefs. They are very good ... just understand their purpose and limitations.

In regards to your comment "If we can buy them, and they do not ask us to, we should take care of them like supposed to just how we would want to be treated. Should I go and try to purchase more to add with the w/t ??? " ... spending more $$$ does NOT = better environment. The best practice you can provide your discus is water changes with good water. If your source water is mediocre, you'd be far more effective by adding an RO filter to you equipment and use that to make up water. However, I'm also of the opinion that we do not need to pamper our discus ... there is a deminishing return on investment in doing WCs every day, latest equipment, and all the gadgetry available. Find you what works for you and your fish, and don't get hung up on the "latest and greatest (and most expensive) equipment". Sponges work fine for filters. DIY wetdrys work as well as store bought. Just be smart ... bying a wet/dry is not the holy grail ... are we starting that thread again? ;)

"Nee!"

[Harriett]

Benis,
I am a big fan of wet/dry systems for larger tanks. I have a heavily planted 180 run with a w/d about the size of an Amiracle 300 + a 250 Magnum with amicron cartridge going 24-7. I've been using this combination successfully for over 2 years with 60% weekly water changes (Lake Michigan water). The added biofiltration you get in a well planted tank keeps the water cleaner and and the tank healthy in my experience. I have not had the problem of nitrates building up (ie the 'nitrate' factory aspect?), since the plants take up the nitrates, among other things. In fact, I dose nitrates weekly along with the other fertilizer components and my nitrate level is stable at 5-10 ppm. The fish have never appeared stressed by it. The water quality is very good and I am well satisfied.
In order to keep my water current at a reasonable rate so the work of filtering effectively isn't decreased but also so the discus aren't troubled, I use a spray bar at the gravel line (rather than 1/2 inch below water level), with the current directed straight up the back wall. The water then flows forward at the surface level in a very relaxed current which the discus never shy away from. I feed all foods through a feed cone with enlarged holes which keeps it in one location--no food ends up in the prefilter with this system.
Also contrary to the more popular approach, I did put my discus in the big tank when they were about 3 inches--the males are now close to 7 inch and the females are between 5 and 5 1/2. It can be done--clean water + good food are the necessary ingredients.
Best regards,
Harriett

[Benis]

Harriet & Jeffrey,
Thanks, to both of you for your suggestions :D. I just wanted to make sure that I would be doing the right thing this time around since, I did not know much before. I do know w/c is the key to everything and I have to do it period.

I just was not sure how the w/d was going to benifit me in the long run. I'm glad to be part of this board. No ones hold back any informations from others, it's better then some of the books out there. It's better to ask then to assume and regret it after words.

Thanks to you both again ;D

[David N]

I agree with much of what JR says. I'm biased toward the wet dry in big tanks because it has worked well for me. The best thing about the wet dry for me is that it allows me to crowd a tank with more fish than I could if I only used sponges. That being said, I only use sponge filters in 55g or smaller tanks. I do w/c 3-4 times a week depending on how much time I have available.

I would still go with a wet dry in a large show tank for the following reasons;
- better control of ammonia (I've never had fish die from nitrates but I've had them die from ammonia)
- creates a greater margin for error in the event of overcrowding (yes, I'm guilty of this, can't help myself at times)
- better visual effect (no space consuming sponges, heater can go in wet dry, etc)
- I usually don't have to go with more than 3 w/c per week with wet dry

Again, this has worked for me. I'm still experimenting with different setups so I'm always looking for more effecient and economical ways to keep my discus.

Good luck
David N

[Benis]

Thanks, David :)

I'm glad to know that it works for you and I intend to use the same practice also. I know we all beleive lots of w/c & foods gives you healthy fish ;D have you ever used used Seachem purigen & phosgard with your w/d ???

Besides the two product listed above that will be in the slump of the w/d, I will just use Seachem prime with the water change. Chicago water is not very kind and I do not want to mess with the ph or anything else. Those two elements are to help keeping the water very clear ??? ??? ???

Please tell me your thoughts if you dod not mind :)

[Harriett]

Benis,
I have Chicago water too, and actually my experience is that it is easy water to work with. Plants do quite well (with a balanced fertilizer regimen), and the discus are comfortable in conditioned tap water. I've never had a problem with pH since the water is hard enough---I have never had a precipitous drop--it holds steady where I set the CO2. Out of the tap pH is around 7.6 aged.
You should have no trouble.
Best regards,
Harriett

[Benis]

Harriett,
Thanks for the information. Do you use any water solution with you w/c ??? What part of Chicago if you do not mind me asking? I live in Rogers Park and had a whole stock of african cichlids died because I had done a w/c and forgot to add the w/s seachem prime :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[

[David N]

[I'm glad to know that it works for you and I intend to use the same practice also. I know we all beleive lots of w/c & foods gives you healthy fish have you ever used used Seachem purigen & phosgard with your w/d

Besides the two product listed above that will be in the slump of the w/d, I will just use Seachem prime with the water change. Chicago water is not very kind and I do not want to mess with the ph or anything else. Those two elements are to help keeping the water very clear quote]

Benis,
I used to use a lot of water conditioners, but nothing in the wet dry. At this point I don't add anything to the water when making w/c. I keep crushed coral in my tanks to buffer the water because it is very soft and prone to ph crashes. We have some of the best tap water in the country in my area. Your water sources are different from mine so, once again, you'll have to experiment to see what works from you.

hth,
David N

[jimlynchaz]

Benis,
A man after my own heart. I believe in multiple filter systems on all my tanks. It just offers so much room for error not to mention lots of extra cycled filters around for emergencies, like when a new tank just shows up. VBG

I run an Amiracle 250 wet/dry, an Eheim 2028 and an AquaClear 500 with peat on a 125 gallon Discus display tank. There is an 18 watt UV sterilizer in the wet/dry sump. The tank has a 1/4 inch or less substate of coarse sand, almost like very fine gravel. All plants are potted in camoflaged plastic tubs hidden behind pieces of bog wood so they can be moved around easily when I vacum the tank bottom a couple of times each week. There are 4 40 watt Triton flouresent tubes for lighting and a 300 watt Ebo Jager heater. Temperature is 86 F. The tank houses 9 4 1/2" to 5" discus, 5 bristle nose plecos and about 20 adult neon tetras.

Here is what I've found the good and the bad is about this set up. Wet/drys are highly efficent, never a problem with Amonia or Nitrites. I cured the heavy water movement from the filter returns by doing two things. The spray bar for the Eheim is pointed up towards the water surface so it gives good gas exchange and does not set up too strong a current in the water column. The 3/4" return from the big pump in the wet dry sump is now converted with a PVC T connection with 12" arms drilled full of 1/8" holes and retruns the filtered water similar to the Eheim spray bar. Great airation with little current generated. (If you do this, do NOT forget your siphon break vent hole in the modified return for when you shut off the pump or it will be Flood City.)

The thing that is hard to change is what a wet/dry does to the water. It tends to degass the water as it travels over the bio balls so Ph will rise to whatever your Gh / Kh will support. If your aged tap water is pretty hard and high Ph and you are happy with that, no problem but, if you are trying to lower Ph in your 125 with a wet/dry running, good luck.

I was mixing dionized water 50/50 with tap water, aging it for 48 hours and ending up with 6.8 Ph, 6 Gh and 4 Kh water for water changes. After 48 hours of going through the wet dry it was back up close to 7.6. Needless to say the Discus don't like all the Ph swings. I solved this by going to straight, aged tap water, 7.6 to 7.8 Ph, 12+ Gh and 8+ Kh in the 125 show tank. I change 50 gallons every other day. The Discus are happy, growing well and and spawning like crazy. Consistent care and consistent water parameters work best.

To breed, I simply move pairs to bare (except for a large potted Amazon Sword and breeding cone) 40 gallon tanks, filtered with Hydro sponge filter for breeding. I slowly reduce the water with daily 10 ti 15% water changes of 50/50 tap and Dionized water for about 10 days and then they are in water that is about 6.8 Ph, 6 Gh and 4 or less Kh which should be suitable for spawning and hatching. They are still very young fish. So all 6 or 8 spawns to date have ended up as dinner after a few days.

The only other cautions to a wet/dry are if you have plants you have to check the overflow box daily so it won't clog up with up-rooted plants or plant parts ( Discus can be frisky) and you need to clean the felt difuser pad on the drip tray and the sponge in the over flow box a couple of times each week. They can really get nasty (by Discus hygine standards) quite quickly. Fortunately these are only about 2 minute jobs.

For African Cichlids or Saltwater a Wed/dry is hard to beat and they do handle large tanks very well. Just be aware that they can raise Ph depending upon what water chemistry you are starting with, what you have done to it and what alkalinity you have.

I plan to move the wet/dry to the Frontosa tank in the future and use an additional Eheim 2028 on the Discus show tank. I'd like to see if this allows me to hold consistent water values a little closer to water instead of concrete. VBG.

Best of luck! Jim