Water Change & Feeding Requirements

[JeffreyRichard]

I was reading through Carol's post "How do I set up my 1st tank ...", and while I generally agree with the post, I have several alternative views to consider ...

First, let my state my background. From 1990 to 2002 my wife and I owned and operated an Angelfish and Discus hatchery ... at our peak we were producing 200 discus and 1500 angelfish monthly. So, I've had a bit of experience here ...

My 1st "alternative" involves waterchanges. In principle, more water changes are better than less ... no aurgument. However, as with all things in business and life, there are trade-offs. More water changes = more work and more expense. So, what is the RANGE of water change frequency/amount that will work?

Unfortunately, the answer is variable ... depends on the following:
capacity of the tank bioload (# of fish) metobolic load (how much you feed) general water parameters filter
I'm sure there are other factors so consider this a high-level list.

Let's consider Carol's recommendation ... 55 Gallon tank with 6-10 discus. While a 50% water change daily is very beneficial, it is not necessary. Let me repeat this for you at home ... it is not necessary. If your source water is of decent "discus" quality (acid to neutral pH, soft to moderately hard) you can certainly have success with one or two 50% water changes weekly. The key would be to cut back on the food (2 feedings/day) and have a decent filter system (the Aquclear 500 meets this requirement). My assumption is that fast growth is not a requirement.

Alternative 2 is the feeding requirement ... discus do just fine with 2 feedings a day. Sure, they will not grow fast and maybe as large as those fed 5-6 time daily ... but again that may not be your priority.

If you want to raise LARGE fish quickly, or want to up the bioload of the tank ... you will need to do more waterchanges and feed more.

But if your requirement is healthy thriving discus without a significant investment in time and money, I believe you can cut back on the requirements.

It works for me ...

My goal here isn't to shoot down anyone's methodology ... there are MANY approaches that work. I just don't want newbies scared away by some monumentous requirements that aren't necessarily applicable across the board.

Thanks, and good luck

[CalPolyPomona]

Hi Richard,

I'm new to this forum and Discus. I'm in the process of setting up my Discus tank. I had been doing a lot of snooping on this forum to find out more information before setting up my tank. My impression about raising Discus is like taking a baby. I love Discus...but I think it is too much works involve in there. I start having doubt about whether I should raise discus or consider an alternative. Then I read your post. I think I can manage to do what you recommended. Hope my first experience is a positive one. Thank you.

[Howie_W]

Hi Cal...welcome to the forum!

One of the most important statements in Jefffrey's post is for any hobbyist to be able to determine what his or her priority is in deciding to care for Discus.

The bottom line in bringing Discus into your home is that they are a labor of love. In general, they can not be cared for any more causually than if you brought home a dog, and expected it to clean up after itself. Not only do Discus rely upon you, that rely upon you much more than most other fish do.

I believe in not short changing any living creature that you decide to bring into your home. The wonderful thing about all of Carol's care guides, are that they are intended to assist beginners in acheiving the best possible results with their fish.

Can you get by with less...yes. By doing so are you increasing the chances for problems to occur...absolutely.

So as Jeffrey mentions, it's best to figure out what your overall goals are, and to carefully follow through on them.

Howie

[Anonapersona]

In the garden, it is usually true that the more beauty a plant offers, the more care it requires. Plants that bloom for a week or two or three, like daffodills, are often hardy and can take care of themselves. Plants that bloom continuously in their season, like pansies or impatients, also have special needs to keep them blooming, high nutrients fuel the blooms. Exotic flowers like orchids, generally require more care, they will have specific needs, temperature, light, or nutrition, they are lovely and tough when cared for correctly.

Discus are the most lovely of the freshwater fish, the orchids of the aquarium.

[Carol_Roberts]

Very nice analogy - discus as the orchids of the freshwater aquarium ;D

[Wolf_Mek]

Doesn't the age of the discus also fator in water changes?

I mean, young discus in BB tanks get daily water changes because they are fed so much, right?

But, what I've gotten for this forum is, that, once they get up in the 5'' range, you can start to cut back on feedings and therefore, also on W/Cs, right? I mean, this is why they are more suitable for planted tanks than juveniles?

So, if you want to have happy, healthy, beautiful fish but don't have time, energy, etc to do daily WC and grow out young fish to reach full potentials, than adults would be the route to take if you have the money.

I agree with Jeffrey, though. If your goal is just to have a pretty fish with great personality (that won't rip apart your tank :D) and really don't care if they are slightly footballed or don't reach their full potential size wise, than 1-2X weekly waterchanges and morning an night feedings will still produce a healthy, attractive fish. I mean, there are very few truly ugly discus out there, IMHO.

[oodi]

The key to raising young discus is the 3-C's... CLEAN, CLEAN, CLEAN! Young discus (as with any other species) are more susceptible to anything and everything. Young discus (as with any other species) require more feedings.

While you can decrease the number of daily feedings with adults, I would not recommend decreasing w/c's to only once or twice a week.

JMO,

Judi
:)

[Wolf_Mek]

While you can decrease the number of daily feedings with adults, I would not recommend decreasing w/c's to only once or twice a week.

Can you tell me what harm 1-2X weekly water changes would do to harm adults as long as decent water quality is maintained (0 ammonia, 0 nitrite, and under 10 nitrate, temps 84-86F)? Of course, if nitrate (or nitrite/ammonia) levels aren't under control, more W/C's are in order.

Sorry if this sounds confontational, it's not how I intended it :).

[oodi]

Hi Puma,

No offense taken! ;)

This is a beginner's section, and I certainly would not advise anyone (especially a beginner) to only change water once or twice a week. I want anyone starting with discus to have the best success possible.

Plain and simple... Discus do better with more frequent water changes. And I would like to think that folks want their fish to thrive... not just survive.

Judi
:)

[Wolf_Mek]

And I would like to think that folks want their fish to thrive... not just survive.

I agree, that thriving should be a priority. And, I can understand how a beginner should do more water changes, especially in non-planted tanks where nitrate build-up usually occurs at a faster rate.

[Carol_Roberts]

I'm not a scientist. I can't explain in a scientific manner why discus of all ages do so much better with daily water changes. I can tell you what happens at my house when I get busy and cut back on water changes and cleaning the adult tanks.

First the eyes loose their brightness and turn dark or black. The discus are less interested in food. I start to see bacteria plaques or small white patches on the fins. The fish will look dark in color and pepper or stress bars become more visible. This will eventually progress to hex and the fish will stop eating.

It's not ammonia or nitrates. I think its a higher bacteria load in the water.

[RyanH]

I agree that there are many ways to do lot's of things... including keeping Discus. A little debate is also a good thing. But this section is called the "Beginners Section" for a reason. That is, many people who spend their time here have never owned Discus or are new to keeping them. We have a responsibility to make sure that they are given the very best information that gives them the greatest chance of success. You have to learn to crawl before you can walk. You must master addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division before you can learn calculus.

I believe firmly that people should learn the basics of keeping these fish and that sometimes means erring on the side of caution... that's ok IMO. I think a tank full of sick or stunted fish would be more likely to turn people away from this hobby than the prospect of having to put forth an effort in taking care of them.

Perhaps a new section called "Alternative Techniques" in Discus keeping should be started. I would be a strong advocate for such a section. But this is not the place for them. JMHO

[Wolf_Mek]

I can tell you what happens at my house when I get busy and cut back on water changes and cleaning the adult tanks.

First the eyes loose their brightness and turn dark or black. The discus are less interested in food. I start to see bacteria plaques or small white patches on the fins. The fish will look dark in color and pepper or stress bars become more visible. This will eventually progress to hex and the fish will stop eating.

Just thinking outloud... but I wonder if it all is with something they're used to. The bacteria count could be something their not used to and could cause the problems. I mean, any change that a fish isn't used to could potentially be harmful. I see a similiar thing happen in my planted tank if I do daily water changes, though I think it's because they aren't used to that much disturbance.


I believe firmly that people should learn the basics of keeping these fish and that sometimes means erring on the side of caution... that's ok IMO. I think a tank full of sick or stunted fish would be more likely to turn people away from this hobby than the prospect of having to put forth an effort in taking care of them.

I agree, I wish I had done more research and had been more willing to give more effort in the beginning when we bought our first 2... would have ended up with a lot fewer dead discus, that's for sure ::).


Sorry if I sound like I'm trying to argue :). Just wondering if there were any specific health reasons that adults needed so many water changes a week :).

[Anonapersona]

I'll offer some ideas, but remember that I am new to discus also.

I'd think that the sort of food you fed would make a difference, live food leaves less waste, for example, assuming not too much escapes capture.

Water parameters would be of interest, as lower pH water will support less bacteria than higher pH water.

And, of course, the total fish load per gallon would be all important. 1 water change a week leaves 7 days of waste in the tank by water change day, so I'd think you ought to have 70 gallons of tank space per fish instead of 10 gallons per fish.

[DarkDiscus]

All I can say is that the two times I had any problem at all with my fish were when I slacked a bit on water changes.

When I upped the w/c regimen, those issues went away.

So while you certainly can get by with less, if you can do more, you are certainly better off.

Interesting thread, though, Jeff.

I'd like to add my own "water requirement."

When breeding Africans and all sorts of other south and central american cichlids I always felt that my fish were healthier and more colorful when I let their tanks get coated with a healthy growth of green algae. Fry were much healthier and more robust as well. Why is it we all tend to scrub out tank glass in our discus tanks?

;)

John

[JeffreyRichard]

I agree that there are many ways to do lot's of things... including keeping Discus. A little debate is also a good thing. But this section is called the "Beginners Section" for a reason.


The reason why this is posted here is because this is an approach that beginners (and all) need to consider ...

It is foolish to consider ONE approach, and treat it as the absolute methodology. It should be considered in the same vien as any other approach.

Frequent water changes IS a proven approach ...
Bare-bottom IS a proven approach ...
Hi-tech filters, water treatments, RO to reconstruct water IS a proven approach ...

BUT they are NOT the only approaches that work ... which is my point. Read Cals 1st post in this thread ... his FIRST impression was that discus REQUIRE losts of hard work to maintain. Well, they don't REQUIRE an extraordinary amount of work ...and beginners and potential keeps need to know this.

Discus are NOT a fish JUST for the elite keepers, or the super dedicated, or someone with a big budget and all the time on their hands to spend on them. There are balances which can easily be achieved that will give a hobbiest thriving fish AND not break their bank or homelives ...

I am successful with my approach. More than a handful of folks are successful with similar approaches. This should be considered just as any approach would ...

[JeffreyRichard]

The key to raising young discus is the 3-C's... CLEAN, CLEAN, CLEAN! Young discus (as with any other species) are more susceptible to anything and everything. Young discus (as with any other species) require more feedings.

While you can decrease the number of daily feedings with adults, I would not recommend decreasing w/c's to only once or twice a week.

JMO,

Judi
:)


Judi, question ... why do young discus REQUIRE more feedings?

Can't discus be raised on 2 or 3 feedings daily? This is a Rhetorical question, because they can (I've done it quite a bit) ...

IF you desire BIG discus FAST, you will need to feed often, and consequently change lot's of water.

If your goal is healthy discus with modest growth, you can feed several times a day without problems.

[JeffreyRichard]

Folks, please don't feel I'm here to rip apart successful approaches presented by the many knowledgable and successful keepers and breeders here (Carol, Judi, Ryan et al).

I'm only making a point about FULL DISCLOSURE ... more information is a GOOD thing.

And Choices are a good thing too ...

Jeff

[Willie]

I think its possible to reduce W/C on discus. Five years ago, making large water changes more than twice a week was quite extreme. In the more recent past, perhaps because of the proliferation of discus forums, the standard for making W/Cs has risen steadily. I remember talking to one of the MAJOR breeders at his hatchery and noting that he makes 50% W/Cs on his breeding pairs every week. Several people on the forum have been successful with less W/Cs.

As Jeff said, you won't get award winning discus this way. You can, however, raise some decent fish. That means also that you can't feed heavily. Beefheart is out is you're going with fewer changes. So are frozen red worms. You're going to have to feed flakes. Even pellets are going to have to be fed sparingly to maintain water quality.

To my surprise, I've seen nice discus in a gravel tank. This was done by

1. Feeding only flakes
2. Very low bioload
3. Satisfaction with discus that takes 24 months to reach maturity.

So it comes down to your expectations. But if you want the latest leopard type to get to 5"+ though, go back to W/Cs.

Willie

Jeff: See, I can be reasonable about this. But I still can't agree about the angels!

[JeffreyRichard]

Jeff: See, I can be reasonable about this. But I still can't agree about the angels!


Angel-hater!!! ;)

[Dave C]

I'd love to see someone compare the growth of small Discus being fed 4-5x a day vs. being fed 2x a day. I'm not convinced that there would necessarily be a huge difference in growth. I have been cutting my feedings back from what I used to do and now I feed 3x a day. One thing I find is that the water/tank is cleaner throughout the day and it's possible that the lower biological overhead affects the fish in a positive way. It's also possible that fish that are fed more often do grow quicker but that both groups would end up at the same place 12-18 months down the road. This would not be acceptable for the breeder who wants to move fish fast but should be fine for the hobbyist that plans to keep the fish regardless of the rate of growth.

[Anonapersona]

I really wish someone would work out a mathematical formlua to approach the water change vs fish size vs stocking limits on a tank.

Something like: 5 gallons per medium sized fish if 50%/day WC or 15 gallons per large fish if 30% alternate day WC

Maybe one could establish some end points for such a relationship....

How many gallons would you allow per 6" (body) fish if you were going to do a single complete water change per week? (let's assume a very big tank so a reasonable number of fish could be kept to allow for group interactions) 30 gallons per fish? 20? could you keep a pair in a 40 gallon tank with a weekly water change of 100%.

Could you keep a number of 6" fish in 10 gallons/fish with a daily 100% water change? 7 fish in a 75 gallon tank of 70 true gallons, with a daily water change of 100%, is that more than necessary? If 50%/day is reasonable, the pollution factor is 2, if 30%/day is reasonable the pollution factor is 3.3.

7 fish times 3.3 is 23 days of fish waste per 70 true gallons or .33W/G. Now is that comparable to 14 fish in a 90 gallon tank getting 50% WC per day? That is 14 fish times 2.0 is 28 days fish waste in 85 true gallons or.33W/G. I dunno, that seems too many for a 90 gallon tank, does anyone stock a 90 this heavily? I think there are unknown factors that ought to be added to this idea, I just can't get there with my limited experience.

Anona, still trying to apply math to make this work for newbies.

[Dave C]

There are too many other variables to consider... type of filter, water parameters, type & volume of food etc. In the end you have to judge on the basis of the behavior & growth of the fish, cleanliness of the water & tank. And then what works for me may not work for you. If it could be broken down into neat mathematical formulae it would be easy and few would want to do it.

[Mustang65]

Thanks for your point of view
I am a new Discus Fan and yes most of the comments I read are kind of Scary.

All Posts are usually really oriented toward breeder -

I plan to be an owner of Discus to enjoy them; Maximum Growth is not my goal but just healthy fish

[Carol_Roberts]

Be sure to contact Mr. Richard for answers when your discus get sick. I have a much lower sucess rate helping beginners with sick discus in planted, graveled tanks ;)

[Mustang65]

I will not!
;D

My point was only to mentioned that most of the post I read are kind of Breeder oriented and it's nice to read a moderate breeder. I hope breeders sell Discus fish to regular customer like me. so what is the way for regular customer? I plan to succeed and I will do the right things till I found my way.

if you need more fan of Discus fish, I think it should be less extreme way to introduce newbie’s to the marvelous world of Discus

I have other priorities in my life (like my kids), I would really really love to have Discus and I am ready to try (It's been more than two month of reading)

[Webzilla]

This is a very interesting subject. I believe this, and this is by no means the standard to award winning Discus - nor is it a standard that "serious" breeders practice. This is true in all aquaria, Salt Water Fish, Reef Keeping and Freshwater fish with or without plants.

It all comes down to 3 things. Bioload Vs. Feeding Vs. Filteration.

It is totally possible to get by on 1 water change every two weeks. Heck one could go for over a month - But that is a big But! If your willing to drop some serious cash on a filteration system.

A lot of Discus keepers keep there Discus with a sponge filter, sure it works but I assure you that it can not handle huge bio loads with massive feedings if your trying to obtain a fast growth rates if your not willing to do the Daily WC's many speak of here. They know! Thats why they do it everyday!

Then there is the 29.00 dollar jobee, you know the aquaclears - bio wheels and penguin filters. Yes, they are probably better then your sponge filter to handle bio loads but they are far from superior and still will require many more water changes then most of use will admit.

Then there is the Canister filters - they are good but can clog and need to be maintained to keep them clean. They work pretty good and are far better then the above two, but you will still need to perform WC's on a consistant basis, but not everyday I assure you!

If you want the major filteration to handle major Bio Loads and Fish stock then I would suggest some form of wet dry filteration. with multiple stages of mechanical and biological filteration and an option to add chemical if the need arises. The draw back is that these systems can cost 400+ to setup properly and are a breeze to maintain. It will require WAY less water changes then you think!

One other word of advice to anyone wishing to keep Discus and want to help keep the deseases down and bacteria problems to a minimum would be to incorporate a UV Filter. Again they are not cheap but are well worth the money if you are serious about keeping your fish thriving in a healthy enviroment.

Now with all that said - consider this - This fish are expensive, you know they are, why skimp on the filter? why not provide a UV? And for godness sake always qaurantene (sp) new arrivals for 30 days. Reguardless, period end of story. A UV Will not "I repeat" will not stop a problem from occuring if you don't quarantene (sp again).

If you provide your fish with healthy filteration and a UV I'm sure you will find you do not need to do 50% WC everyday. Always size your tank to your fishes maximum growth size not they size they are when you get them as juvies and use common sense when feeding them - They are just fish, not pigs! Everything will be fine - I promise you - and you will enjoy these fish in all the majestic glamore you have always read about.

ALWAYS BUY A BIGGER TANK THEN YOU THINK YOU NEED! AND ALWAYS GET MORE FILTERATION THEN YOU THINK YOU NEED.

NOTE: These views are my views only - they are not the views of anyone on this board - they are strictly my views only. Take them for what they are and you will be suprised how successful you will be.

I'm out!

John.......

[JeffreyRichard]

Be sure to contact Mr. Richard for answers when your discus get sick. I have a much lower sucess rate helping beginners with sick discus in planted, graveled tanks ;)


If you start with healthy, thriving discus and keep a low bioload, you shouldn't have to worry about sick discus.

I find it fasinating (and frustrating) that folks focus on the means, not the ends. Bare-tank, discus-only, daily water changes are a MEANS to an end. these represent methods that works. BUT there are other methods that work too. Can we acknowledged this?

Managing bioload is the real objective ... sure, it's easier to manage the bioload in a bare, sterile tank. But it is NOT significantly harder to manage the bioload in a non-bare tank as long as things are in balance. Beginners ARE capable of doing this ...

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Jeff Richards:

My position is that when problems occur - and they are more likely to occur with beginners - it is VERY difficult to treat discus in planted, graveled tanks.

Since I spend several hours a day on the boards helping beginners with sick discus it makes my job here less frustrating if they are learning in a bare bottom tank.

I see you advocating planted tanks and less water changes in the beginner section, but I don't see you on the disease board helping these same beginners when problems arise.

[Webzilla]

Carol,

Most beginners will probably fail keeping any fish, much less a Discus. Good thing there are folks like you who take and make time to help them.

Let me say Thank You!

[Mustang65]

Hi Jeff Richards:

I appreciate all your comments and want to give you some of my support. it seems to me that if you don't think like the main stream you become an outsider
At the other hand, the right way doesn't guaranty 100% neither - sh*t always can happen even if you do the right things.

So may be it is a matter of what are you more comfortable with versus imposing one way and if my discus fish die on me, it is only me to blame.

Carol, do not take me wrong, I read a lot of your post and you are a major helper, I do appreciate your advices

PLEASE CONSIDER THIS!
As a newbie and outsider looking at you (the expert breeder), my impression is not positive and most of the posting I can read are fanatic and really to sentimentally extreme
It feels like an obligation to follow the leader’s way or die.
But more you read, more you discover many different method and flexible ways to have Discus.

Already I feel bad to even participate to this discussion. I came with a lot of motivation but may be I am better off not trying to question the rules or search what is the best suitable way for me
and stay silent

Thanks
:lurk:

[Dave C]

Why do that? Break the rules and then tell everyone that the sky did not fall in. That's what I did. I changed my w/c schedule over a year ago, from 50% daily to 50% on Mon/Wed/Fri and guess what? No fish losses, no sickness and good healthy growth. Mind you just because it works for me doesn't mean it will work for all, but neither will large w/c's. Just feel your way around, listen to everyone and then do what you want and either suffer the consequences or revel in the victory. I've wasted enough water in my day, no more.

[wildthing]

There are too many other variables to consider... type of filter, water parameters, type & volume of food etc. In the end you have to judge on the basis of the behavior & growth of the fish, cleanliness of the water & tank. And then what works for me may not work for you. If it could be broken down into neat mathematical formulae it would be easy and few would want to do it.


I agree but......

It kind of bothers me when people make sweeping and absolute statements without doing the appropriate research or by extrapolating experience with one or 2 tanks into rules for the whole population.
In fact there are very exact formulas for working out these kinds of questions...filtration by biomass, sterilization, bombardment...all of it..tho it gets quite complicated.
Please read
"Aquatic systems engineering" by PR Escobal.
The math may leave you feeling sleepy ( it does me) but this type of question does have hard scientific answers...if you are prepared to read learn and inwardly digest. Then you will realize ( yet again) how many folks here are talking nonsense.

btw, my personal experience is that you can easily do 2 or 3 x 20% water changes per week and be very safe .......IF......you stay within the rules.....ie: you start with healthy fish and you have adequate filtration and sterilization and are not overpopulated. and do not overfeed.
Most problems start because people believe what they read about filter capacities, without understanding that the claims made by manufacturers for their filters are absolute maximums if they are even accurate ( you cannot truthfully say a particular filter is good for an 'x' amount of gallons sized tank if you don;t know what the biomass contained in that tank is) they still depend on the formulas as found in the book mentioned.

There are many ways of doing things and having a reasonable result...but they are all just variations on a theme that is governed by scientific principles, so really there is only one way to do things right.....and that starts with understanding the laws...but if you don;t know the laws then err on the side of caution....less fish, less food, bigger tank...more filtration...etc

[Dave C]

David, that's an awesome book. But nowhere in that book does it discuss amounts of biomass within a tank nor the amount of food/fish that creates X amount of waste. What it does discuss is how much wattage you need to heat a body of water, how big a filter you need to produce X% turnover on a body of water, what size sterilizer you need to kill bugs/algae/whatever in a specific size tank. It addresses how to properly setup a tank or group of tanks, but not how to maintain it. Still, a very good book.

[wildthing]

specificly chapter 15 " tank bioload" , which is all about how to calculate bioload capacities for a fluidized bed filter and also applies to wet/dry etc...given tank size, filtration surface areas needed for bacteria, bombardment rates........there are specific chapters for calculating requirements for most kinds of filtration and sterilizers...
page 201 " the biolaod capacity equation"

This chapter deals with sand and fluidized bed filters but the type of media is secondary, the surface area of the media is the relevant info....so bioballs, sand, noodles sponges etc can all be calculated using the same formula.
however, it is wayyyyyy complicated imo and tends to make my brain hurt.
:)

[Dave C]

Doh, I must admit I never read that chapter as I never intended to use a FBF. Good catch DW. Now tell me how much media I need in my 55g tank that is stocked with 30 3.5" Discus and gets 50% w/c 3x a week. Ha ha ha.

[Carol_Roberts]

You tell me DaveC . . . As a very, very, very experienced hobbyist :) What type of filtration are you using in this very, very heavily stocked 55 gallon tank (30 3.5 inch discus) with three 50% wc per week?

How long have they been in this tank at this density? In other words, do you get in a group of 30 youngsters and then sell them off within 4-6 weeks?

Or will you be growing all of them out for several months in this tank? If so, are they growing uniformly?

Any white plaques on fins or ragged fins?

Do you have soft, low pH water?

Do you feed beefheart?

[Dave C]

I find your tone a little argumentative/defensive but I'll answer regardless. I have never described myself as a very, very experienced hobbyist, I merely documented my methods & results. You can judge my experience and the veracity of my claims for yourself.

I received these fish on May 18/04. They were sold as 2.5" fish but I'd say they were 2" tops and that's including the tail. So you could call them 1.5" fish, not including the tail. I placed 48 into each of my 55g tanks that are all connected to a central wet/dry. Each tank also has a couple air-driven Hydro IIIs and a HOT Magnum with a micron filter that runs 24/7.

So they've been in the tank for under 4 months and have grown from 1.5" to 3.5" The growth is fairly uniform. Out of the 200 fish that I received I have separated about 15 that are apparently runts and I'm treating them with Metro to see if their size difference is caused by internal problems rather then just being runts. The rest have grown at an even rate, some bigger, some smaller, most about 3.5". There are no white plaques on the fins, no ragged fins. My water is 7.5 about 250ms. I feed beefheart morning and night and bloodworms or brine shrimp at lunch.

My methods work for me as well now with 3 w/c a week as they did when I did 7 w/c a week. Before I switched I did a test with a dozen 1" fish in two tanks. I assume you've read the results. If not it's documented here (http://members.shaw.ca/dclubine/Experiment.htm). I do not test for ammonia, nitrite or nitrate but rather I watch the behavior of the fish and from that I've never determined that I should change more water. Prior to this current batch of fish I raised 200 other fry from 1/2", right off of a couple of pairs, to about 4" and they did equally well. Prior to that batch I had another batch of 200 fish from 2 sources that also did well.

I agree that if/when problems arise that a bare tank with daily w/c is the easiest way to solve the problem. But when problems have come up I usually move the troubled fish to another tank, which could/would of course be bare. At that time I would suggest hitting them with salt, heat and w/c as a first resort.

There are many ways to have success with these fish. I'd be a fool to tell people that they must do it my way to have success. There is no one right way, there are too many people having success using many different methods for that to be the case. All I am doing is documenting my trials and the results. When someone asks if they can have success without bare tanks & changing water daily of course the answer has to be Yes. That doesn't mean they WILL have success, but of course they CAN.

[Dave C]

btw, I also haven't rinsed the Hydro sponges in my tank in about a year. There was a survey done at the time asking how often everyone cleaned their sponges and some people (John Nicholson for one) said they never did it, or rarely ever. So now I clean mine whenever I move them, which tends to be very infrequent. They work just as well, even in tanks where they are the only biological filtration. I also don't wipe the glass now that I have plecos in each tank.

And if you're noticing the quantities of fish in the above post, I have moved some fish to other tanks, around when they were 3". I did this in order to lower the biological load on the tanks. That's why I have 30 fish in each 55g tank now. The fish that I moved are in tanks that are only filtered with Hydros & HOT Magnums.

[Carol_Roberts]

Hi Dave:
I wasn't trying to be agumentative, only in a hurry. You ARE a very experience hobbyist (who doesn't post here much) and I wanted readers here who may not recognize your name to understand that. You have grown out hundreds of discus and regularly experiment with various types of equipment and husbandry techniques.

If you say you can grow out 30 discus in a 55 I believe you. I'm trying to figure out how you do it. That's why I was asking if you feed beefheart, what the water GH and pH are etc.

Remind me how often you are running the HOT magnums to clean the water on your tanks. I seem to recall you felt that make a big diffrence in water quality.

[Dave C]

I run HOT Magnums continuously on all tanks. I change the micron filters every 3 days or so. Basically I change them when the water flow lessens noticeably or when the tank bottom is not kept clean. They keep the tank so clean that the days I don't do a w/c I barely have to siphon the tank bottom... as I still do siphon the tank bottoms on non-w/c days. I figure I remove at most 10% on those days. I could just go all the way and do a 50% w/c since I'm siphoning anyways but I find that the cost of water & the electricity to heat it adds up to a good $500 a year savings. So it's worth it to me, not to mention the time I save by only siphoning. It's a real blessing on weekends when I'd rather be playing with my son.

[Dave C]

btw, beefheart isn't a messy food if you use a HOT Magnum. The floating bits are removed very fast. I don't use live cbw, which would be the cleanest but cost prohibitive. So I find that frozen bloodworms are the cleanest food available to me. Frozen brine shrimp are about as messy as beefheart since there is lots of stray garbage that floats. Flake food & pellets are the dirtiest in my opinion. They break down into inedible powder and are a real pain to clean up.

[Webzilla]

Hey Dave!

My hard core data here tells me that I have never "I repeat" Never washed or cleaned my bioballs in 3 years in my WD Trickle. From the first day I put them in my tank, not once have I cleaned them out. There are 10 Gallon of Bio Balls with 18 discus in a 175 Bowfront with 150Lbs of gravel "I break all the rules!" But I have had sucess keeping them alive for many years. I do about 30%-50% WC Every Week. Oh and get this I fill the damn tank right from the hose, using a water prefilter. I dont' age and don't even heat. just did one today. Fish look healthy as ever expect one that runted over three years ago "Which I strongly believe is a genetic defect" But I'm not going into runting here. I have stated my opinions on filteration earlier in this post a few notes back. Your collected data is obviously well performed. I bet your sucess would be far greater on WC is you use a WD Filter for testing. I'm willing to bet that by using a sponge filter one has very little choice but to do daily WC's otherwise risk it all. As a matter of fact I have asked myself why would one buy 1/2 dozen discus at 50.00 a piece then trust there expensive beloved fish to a sponge filter, oh yeah! They do Daily WC's. Cracks me Up! But if one has a breeding program - then sure, use the sponges... Why not, since water changes obviously induce spawning. But I'm abosultley positive that Daily WC's are not needed if you just want to keep these fish healthy in a display tank - once a week or even longer is fine with a killer filteration system.

I'm out!

John....

[Mustang65]

Thanks Dave C - WebZilla and Jeffrey Richard

I really appreciate your reading.

I plan to have Discus fish for the first time on Sunday (Sep 12, 04)
I just bought a 72 Gal Fish tank

here is my plan:
Bare naked tank 82 -84 degrees etc
I will go by the rule first and change my water every day
I plan also to feed them once or twice a day (growth is not my goal)
I will certainly by some UV lights because I read a lot of the benefic against disease.
and try to keep this rhythm for a month till I found my style
(by the rule = 82 degrees tank, bare naked, filtration Fluval 404, various type of food - UV lights)

My Goals:
Have decoration in the Tank - I believe bare naked tank s*ck and fish in brazil have plants etc...
Another challenge will be to mix my Discus with other type of fish (I will expose myself to disease but I would like my show tank with various fish species)


do you have more advice or remomandation?
I think I am really ready and very excited to have my first discus fishes
I am also really scared because I read too many radical breeders post

Thanks for your advices I will keep you posted ;D

[Dave C]

Mustang, what size fish are these going to be? If they're young I'd feed at least twice a day, if not 3x. I'd also get the temp at least to 86ºF. I've used UV in the past and would skip it. If you're going to use it make sure you replace the bulb every 6 months (or whatever the manufacturer recommends) otherwise it is not doing anything. You should also properly size the UV to the tank and run water through the sterilizer at the correct gph or again it won't do anything. There's no point putting a 5w sterilizer on a 72g tank and pounding water through it at 500gph (not that you're planning to do that). The book that DW mentioned is awesome for sizing a sterilizer to a tank and to a pump. But for my money I'd skip it. For decorations I'd go with driftwood that has anubias & java fern attached to the wood. That will meet your needs of a decorated tank and still allow you to keep it clean.

[Dave C]

John, I love W/D filters as well and have 2 of them running right now. But there's no real "magic" to them. They just do a great job of mechanical filtration as well as biological. But sponge filters are still the best bang for your buck that you will find out there, they just have 0 mechanical filtration capabilities. I have them running in all tanks so I always have spare filters for starting up a new tank. They take hardly any space and are very easy to maintain. Combine a sponge filter with a HOT Magnum and you've got at least as good biological / mechanical filtration as a W/D without all the space and cost.

[RyanH]

Actually, sponges are excellent mechanical filters. I squeeze out my sponges everyday due to their mechanical filtering. They draw in surprisingly large quantities of particulates. .

[Dave C]

Their ability to mechanically filter is related to how they are powered... by air or by powerhead. As well it is related to the volume of air or the size of powerhead used. You must also compare their ability to mechanically filter with other mechanical filters. There is no comparison in the ability of a sponge filter to remove particulate matter with a wet/dry or a filter with a micron (pleated) filter inside. I'd also venture that the better they are at mechanically filtering (i.e. the higher the flow of water you put through the filter) the worse they are at biologically filtering, but that's just an opinion. It makes some sense though as biological filtering is best done with a slow flow of water rather then a fast flow. But mechanical filters will remove detritus quicker the faster the flow.

If you'd like to see a comparison take a clean tank with no fish and a dirty sponge filter. Squeeze out the sponge in the tank. In no time at all the tank will be completely opaque, crap all over the place. Now put a clean sponge filter in and let it run and see how long it takes to clear the tank. Do the same with a HOT Magnum with a micron filter. And if possible do the same with a wet/dry on that tank. I've found that a wet/dry or a HOT can clear a 30g tank in under an hour. The HOT also allows you to direct the flow so the heavier materials can be moved off of the bottom of the tank and removed as well. The sponge filter will indeed clear the tank but in a much, much longer period of time.

[RyanH]

I thought you said that they have 0 mechanical filtration capabilities?

[Dave C]

Ha, I figured you would say that. And you're right, I did. I said that based on the comparison of an air-driven sponge filter with a HOT Magnum. The difference is so stark that to me I felt comfortable saying they have 0 mechanical capability. I guess it's like saying that a prefilter on an AC filter has 0 biological capability. Of course it can & will harbor beneficial bacteria, but that is not it's purpose and you clean it in such a way that it will not maintain that bacteria. So I would say that a prefilter has 0 biological filtration capabilities... but it doesn't really.

So I'm speaking from a comparable point of view, comparing the mechanical capabilities of the different types of filters, as well as from the pov of what my goal is for a filter. My goal for a sponge filter is not to act as a mechanical filter.

[RyanH]

Call me "Mr. Predictable". ;)

Dave, your obviously an experienced fishkeeper and WAY out of my league so I won't attempt to debate you. Just make sure you are giving people accurate info when posting in this forum, ok?

Sponge filters can be and ARE used as mechanical filters everyday by many people. They work in this capacity on their own with larger water changes or as a supplement to the other types of filters that you mentioned. I will typically keep a couple of hydros in my 29 breeder tanks. One with a slow airflow for biological filtration and another with a larger airflow (but still air-pump powered, no powerheads) that is geared towards mechanical filtration. I do 50% water changes 2 or 3 times per week along with giving my sponges a good squeeze and my water is like glass and its quality is fantastic.

With mechanical filtration, you are still exposing your fish to rotting waste. Whether it is laying on the bottom of your tank or stuck in your mechanically efficient filter, this waste must be removed regularly or your water quality will suffer. Some people prefer to simply syphon out larger particulates while doing water changes. Others will rely on more advanced filtration devices. Either way, regular, diligent maintenence is a must. Unfortunately, protein skimmers do not work with freshwater! :)

[Dave C]

Ryan, I'm not attempting to win any debates, just discussing interesting topics on fishkeeping and sharing my theories and experiences. There are few "accurate" statements in fishkeeping, there are opinions based upon experiences. But since our water differs, our equipment differs and the way we use the equipment differs we can all arrive at different conclusions, so who is to say what is accurate and what is not. It's up to the hobbyist to decide what is right and to use that info, or not. There's no silver bullet, including daily water changes... and I think that is the premise behind this thread.

Some things that are logical don't always work out the way you think they will. For instance, when I began using Magnums I felt that if I let them run for 3 days the waste would still be in the filter so the water quality would be no better then if I left the waste on the tank bottom, though the tank may appear to be cleaner. I actually thought it might be worse since the filter will force water through the waste over & over again, breaking it down and pushing it into the water column. So I was concerned that I'd have to be cleaning these filters daily in order to "remove" this waste from the tank. But that's not how it has worked out. Or to put it another way, I don't have the ability to test the quality of my water to see if the waste in the filter is causing problems. I figured the nitrates would rise on the tanks filtered with the Magnums since the waste was still in the filter, for 3 days at a time before being cleaned. But there are always <5ms nitrates in all of my tanks, with or without Magnums. I don't understand that, but one thing that I'm guessing might be the reason is that the detritus that the fish produce is inert. If it's inert then it won't add much to the biological overhead whether it sits on the tank bottom or in the bottom of my filter. If that's the case then cleaning the filter is only necessary to improve its performance. That would also explain why some people seem to have good luck with fish even though they have 1" of mulm on the tank bottom (it's rare but I've heard it and seen it). I don't recommend that but it's been done with purported success. It also explains why my sponge filters are still effective as the sole means of biological filtration in some tanks even though I haven't cleaned them in almost a year.

So I'm offering the possiblity that there is little to "rot" in fish waste. Either that or the effects are so minimal that they cannot be measured with the tools available to the average hobbyist, nor do they seem to affect my fish. I believe that most, if not all, hobbyists determine the quality of the water in their tanks on the basis of its clarity. Other then that there are very few tools in our arsenal... just test kits that measure ammonia/nitrite/nitrate and few of us suffer in that area.

[kpix99]

IME


Its all about the water!


Its all about the fish load!


its all about the food You feed!


Its all about Your Filtration


And most of all Your goals ;)


Just Like Breeding Discus and many other varities! There's Many ways of doing it!

hth
Cary Gld!

[Wolf_Mek]

This is interesting to descussion. Just a though

I've had "success"(hesitant to call it success yet) with 2X water changes on my planted tank (38g) which is on this side of overstocked (I swear, it doesn't look it! :D) and neither of my 2 discus show signs of distress. They are active, have red eyes, eat me out of house and home, and all that other good stuff. Nitrate stays around 5ppm to the best of my knowledge (probably due to the plants) which is the best I can do (I have 5ppm nitrate from the tap). Water from the tap has a pH of 8, but tank is 7.4 (I assume again, due to the plants). I have a wally world special Aqua-tech 20-40 HOB, and, unfortunately, I only get around to rinsing it 1-2 a month (I'll be honest, I always forget to do it). I don't feed beefheat, but do feed Sera discus color pellets, bloodworms, brine, freeze-dried tubifex, and am trying to get them to eat mysis shrimp 4-6X daily (but, I only feed enough for each to get a few bites to eat). Temp stays around 84-86F (on good days, 1 of the two heaters sucks).

On the other hand, if some others on here had tried to do this with their fish, their fish would be on their way out. So, just as a theory, I think that fish health more cooridinates with what their used to rather than how many water changes you do. If Fish X is used to daily water changes and Fish Y is used to weeklies, than swaping each others schedules would probably cause both fish to fall ill because it's not what they are used to for an enviroment, (change in enviroment= higher stress= less disease resistant). It's a basic concept that affects pretty much any living being... take us for example, if person X gets 8hrs of sleep a night and person Y gets 12hrs, then swaping their schedules would cause both people problems.. Person X would be an insomniac after one 12hr sleep night while person Y would feel exhasted... both people could fall ill because both problems cause some kind of stress on the body/mind. Just a theory though, I'm not saying it's always the case.

I agree, bare bottom tanks, daily water changes, and 8X feeding for juvies is great; but, for new people, this is a rather foreboding task. Telling them the fish WILL fall ill if they don't do all of that is only contributing to "discus are sensitive" which we all know to be untrue. They don't need it, but it is probably better... for any fish though, not just discus.

Carol, I respect that you want people to do things in a way which makes it easier for their fish to recover with minimal effort and time. I would love to help in the disease forum, just I don't feel I know enough to help signifigantly. I've only encountered a few diseases in the grand scheme of things, and those are the only ones I know I've had experience and success doing so.

Puma

[Anonapersona]

Do you guys think that having "better water" is important to having the fish healthy in overstocked tanks, or in tanks where water changes are less frequent and of smaller volume? By "better", I mean lower conductivity, lower dissolved solids, lower pH.

Has anyone ever quantified that?

[Webzilla]

I don't know about anyone else but I have a lot of other things I can and need to be doing instead of performing daily water changes. I know my fish so well after well over 2.5 years that I can tell just by looking at them is they need a WC. But I swear, they can go weeks without one in my tank and still stay very very active and be happy as hell. I start to feel guilty about it though and do a water change. I really think the key to any aquatic enviroment is don't over feed and over stock, and have good filteration - It's works for me, so I'm sticking with it. I've always believed if it ain't broke don't fix it.

Thanks!

John.....

[Webzilla]

Dave,

I have heard a lot about the hot mags. I need me one for my 90 Gallon. I think after I write this I'm going to look for one online. I've never been a big backer of the simple sponge filter - but hey if your doing very frequent WC's then heck ya, why invest an arm and a leg on a WD system.

John....