Which are harder

[BobB]

to keep Discus or Angels. How many Discus could be kept in a 75G tank. I have a Eheim professional with a built in
heater and a Emp 400 for additional filtration.

[RyanH]

That depends on who you ask! :)

Eight adult Discus would be fine in a 75 with frequent water changes. I would start out with a group of 15 babies and then cull, sell, or give away the ones that don't look as nice until you have a group of 8 or so.

[pcgamer02]

Angels are 100 times easyer. But they cant touch the beauty and personality that discus have 8)

[ShinShin]

Hands down - angels are easier. 10 adult discus can easily be kept in a 75 gal tank with at least 40% daily water changes. :)

[BobB]

Thanks for your replies. One more question in fact a couple.
1 I have a PH of 7.8 Is this ok
2 Can you put differnt colored discus in the tank
3 Where would you recommend to buy them?

[Howie_W]

Thanks for your replies. One more question in fact a couple.
1 I have a PH of 7.8 Is this ok
2 Can you put differnt colored discus in the tank
3 Where would you recommend to buy them?



1. pH is fine...no problem.

2. You can mix any strains of Discus you want. If down the road you are thinking of having some breeding pairs...you might want to keep similar types together. i.e. all pigeon type strains, all blue starins, etc. But for starting out this is not a major concern...just have some fun! :)

3. IMO...many of the breeders, and members on this site have quality fish for sale. Some specialize in Wild Strains, while others have a varied selection. Feel free to PM me if you want more details! :)

Howie

[JeffreyRichard]

Angels are 100 times easyer. But they cant touch the beauty and personality that discus have 8)


Should this response be in the "Myths" thread ? :o

Discus are NOT ... repeat NOT a difficult fish to keep ... give them lot's of room, good nutrition, clean water, and START OUT WITH HEALTHY DISCUS ... there is no reason why anyone with any fishkeeping skills can't succeed with discus (not to say that S#$t doesn't happen, cause it does, and there is a bit of finacial investment with discus you generally won't see with angels ...)

Angels are also an easy fish to keep ... which is not the same as saying they don't need any attention. You need to give them the same care you give discus. They are just cheaper, so your investment isn't as much ...

Angels are generally smaller than discus, so you can keep more in the same space. They are hardier at lower temperatures. But they are more carnivorous ... they chow down a school of neons or cardinals without thinking about it ... they also tend to be a bit more aggresive ... try putting two male Black angels in a tank with a single female black and watch the fireworks between the fish (and any bystanders ...)

Angels also have there weaknesses ... my experience is they tend to be more suseptable to gut problems (i.e., hexamita/sprironucliosis) than discus, and fins are suseptable to fungus and bacteria problems.

But on the whole, angels are fairly hardy ...

Now, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I find angels fasinating ... wild angelfish are truely a gem IMO.

But, in response to the poster (paul h) ... you know not what you are talking of ... angelfish are really no easier or harder to keep than discus

[DarkDiscus]

pH 7.8 - That's just what I raised my 1st batch of discus in and they came out just fine.

Of course I just bought a house where my pH is 6.4 out of the tap, which is better...

;D

John

[ShinShin]

Again, hands down, angels are easier to keep. If I practiced the same husbandry I used raising/breeding angels with my discus, I would be buying new discus stock every 6 months. ;)

[Wolf_Mek]

I have to slightly disagree that angels are easier to keep than discus. I've lost far more angels than discus when I have kept them under ideal (well, not ideal, but you know what I mean) conditions. Not to mention that they have a foul temper as adults and don't mind bullying stuff around.

As for comparing, pet-store bought angels are not as hardy as pet-store bought discus IMO, IME. The only reason they "seem" hardier, as already mentioned, is because, if they die, it doesn't put as large of a hole in your pocket as if you lose a discus.


{edits : typos}

[paletka]

Hi,

If you start with a healty discus and keep you water changes with healty diet you will be ok. You shouldn't have any problems just remember water changes as much as posible.

Chris

[Cosmo]

Discus will tolerate a very wide range of ph, eat and grow and become healthy adults if cared for correctly. They do however, prefer their water more on the acidic side. I'm not as luck as Dark is to have 6.4 out of the tap, but I manipulate mine to 6.4 ( god, it would be sooo much cheaper to have ideal water out of the tap).

All of the above are right regarding which is the easier to keep but I'd have to lean towards Discus being not only the more dollar intensive, but also a higher maintenance (labor intensive) fish to keep as Angels seem to tolerate less than optimal water conditions better than Discus will.

Key is start with healthy Discus - whenever you buy a new one - ALWAYS keep it in a quarantine tank for several weeks before adding in with your others. Some observe, some deworm and delouse while in quarantine, but you should never assume that cause the fish you just brought home looks healthy that it is healthy - particularly if bought at your LFS.

Both are a delight to keep, but without doubt (IMO) the Angels don't have near the personality that Discus have

[JeffreyRichard]

Again, hands down, angels are easier to keep. If I practiced the same husbandry I used raising/breeding angels with my discus, I would be buying new discus stock every 6 months. ;)


Then you ought to have your angels taken away from you !

[ShinShin]

Anybody can breed angelfish. Try breeding discus w/25% monthly water changes and gravel substrate and see how long you have healthy discus. Angelfish are very tolerant cichlids. Every lfs I have ever been in have had angel spawns on display. No real challenge to them, really. :)

[BobB]

What about wild Angels such as Altums?

[JeffreyRichard]

Anybody can breed angelfish. Try breeding discus w/25% monthly water changes and gravel substrate and see how long you have healthy discus. Angelfish are very tolerant cichlids. Every lfs I have ever been in have had angel spawns on display. No real challenge to them, really. :)


What is your personal experience with Angels? I've been breeding both angels and discus since 1990 ... commercially for 10 years ...

While I agree that breeding discus is more challenging than breeding angels, the question posed was which is easier to keep. In order to keep angels healthy and thriving, they need to be cared for properly. Same as discus. Your comments about angels being "very tolerant" are misleading. That said, I don't believe in the daily water change/bare bottom "necessity" for discus. Both will thrive with good husbandy

[JeffreyRichard]

What about wild Angels such as Altums?


Altums are probably "harder" to keep than discus (and domestic angels) because not as much is known about Altums, and the experiences with altums (throughout the hobby) is less than with discus.

That said, I've been keeping a group of 10 altums now for 3 years ... started as fry. They are thriving, and I've not done anything different than I do with my Discus or other angels. They live in a 135 gallon tank, get periodic water changes (3 times/week), use straight tap water, and are fed pellets, froze Mysis and Bloodworms, and live Blackworms. I keep several F2 Wild Scalare with them, along with Corydoras Sterbai and two wild Ancistrus.

[ShinShin]

Jeff,

I'm not about to get into a pissing match with you about angels. I will say, though, that I bred angels as a kid while living in the limestone streams (hard and alkaline) of the Pa. Dutch Country of southcentral Pennsylvania. My wild discus would not breed in that water when I got my first 2 pairs in 1969. I got my first tank in 1960 and started breeding fish then, starting with the beginner's livebearers, then to bettas, convicts, and angels. Apistgrammas of many species were my favorites until I began breeding discus. :)

Angelfish were as easy to breed as convicts. Sorry if your experience has been more difficult.

Mat

[JeffreyRichard]

Jeff,

I'm not about to get into a pissing match with you about angels. I will say, though, that I bred angels as a kid while living in the limestone streams (hard and alkaline) of the Pa. Dutch Country of southcentral Pennsylvania. My wild discus would not breed in that water when I got my first 2 pairs in 1969. I got my first tank in 1960 and started breeding fish then, starting with the beginner's livebearers, then to bettas, convicts, and angels. Apistgrammas of many species were my favorites until I began breeding discus. :)

Angelfish were as easy to breed as convicts. Sorry if your experience has been more difficult.

Mat


Again, the question WASN'T what is easier to breed, but what is easier to KEEP. I've never had any problems breeding angelfish.

[ShinShin]

I am glad you had no problems breeding angels. So, let me also state that angels were as easy to keep as convicts. ;)

For the record, my comment about having to replace my discus stock in 6 months was said tongue in cheek. However, reading these boards for the last 4-5 years, it's simple to see the results of keeping discus the "easy way" by just reading the disease sections of the forums. Too many treat their discus like they were angels or convicts or bleeding heart tetras. Most of the diseases being reported other than those of imported fish are from improper discus care from either lack of knowledge or poor advice on the boards. Both abound. :) (as do much knowledge and good advice)

[shalu]

As a semi-beginner, I say I killed higher percentage of Angels(5 died, 1 alive) than Discus :). Many LFS's angel stock is as bad as their discus.

[JeffreyRichard]

Too many treat their discus like they were angels or convicts or bleeding heart tetras.


Not that you are saying anything different, but why shouldn't angels, convicts and tetras be treated the same way discus are treated? Discus are no diiferent than these other species with BASICALLY the same requirements ... anyone who thinks that tetras can be kept without any care or attention is NOT a true hobbiest. So I agree with what you're saying in this response.

I'm will ing to bet that people equate the amount of care that should be given any particular fish with the cost of that fish ... why sweat a $.59 neon?

[alex_m]

True altums are very sweet and for me are as pretty as discus.

I would not say that angels experience more problems with hexamita, in fact the opposite-discus get hexamita much easier. That is domesticated angels.

In Bulgaria i have seen group of altums in a 500 gal tank- their size was incredible. When calm and with fins spread out they are awesome.

alex

[ShinShin]

Look Jeff, I have no idea why you feel you need to be so contrary about this. I have kept tropicals of all sorts for decades. Some varities are far more easy to care for, and some aren't easy at all. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. If discus are so damn easy to keep, why can't most hobbyist raise them? Why are there so many disease problems posted on these boards? Because people raise them like they were just any fish and they aren't. Show me a convict that needs the same conditions as a discus and I'll show you someone who doesn't know what a convict is. That was a totally absurd statement. :)

[JeffreyRichard]

Some varities are far more easy to care for, and some aren't easy at all. That's not an opinion, that's a fact.

Show me the data ... you seem to be using observations and anocdotal evidence and translating that to fact. If you want to qualify your statements with "In My Opinion" or "based on my observations", fine ... can't argue that. But don't say FACT ...

I still maintain that all fish require a baseline amount of care, which is my starting position in this thread. My perception of your comments were that Angelfish (and convicts) require no care ... I dissagree with that.



If discus are so damn easy to keep, why can't most hobbyist raise them? Why are there so many disease problems posted on these boards? Because people raise them like they were just any fish and they aren't.


When I first started out raising discus, I was breeding angelfish. I acquired 12 Solid Blue Discus fry from a friend. I raised them NO DIFFERENT than I raised my angels ... same water (straight out of the tap), same food, same water change schedule, SLIGHTLY HIGER temperature (84 degrees), same filters (sponges). 11 of the 12 were raise to adults (one jumped out of the tank), and I got 3 pairs from that group.

Ask the question ... if a beginner is having problems with discus, is it because discus are difficult, or because the beginner doesn't know how to keep any fish?



Show me a convict that needs the same conditions as a discus and I'll show you someone who doesn't know what a convict is. That was a totally absurd statement. :)


Back at you with "absurds statements" ... I'm not sure why your placing keeping Discus on this level that requires, what I'm perceiving you are saying, an extraordinary amount of care ... ?



Look Jeff, I have no idea why you feel you need to be so contrary about this.


I get passionate about this because I think certain hobbiests give beginners the wrong impression about Discus ... sort of like they are not "worthy" to keep discus. Or that opinions are stated as absolutes, and there are no other ways to care for discus.

Just because one person goes to extremes to keep discus doesn't mean that is the only way to be successful. If you wish to have a huge tank, with RO water, a wet/dry filter, and automated water changes that are done daily, and you get enjoyment and satifaction from that, excellent. More powre to you. You've discovered what works for you.

But don't come along and proclaim that as THE WAY to keep discus (or any other fish) ... because there are many ways to be successful.

[Dave C]

This is a Discus board so of course you're going to find tons and tons of disease related issues with Discus. But as Jeff said a lot of the "issues" with Discus comes from the cost of the fish. If they cost $3 a fish boards like this would be much less populated and when a fish got sick they'd just be culled. How much money would you spend to keep a $3 fish alive? A lot less then for a $100 fish. And when a $3 fish gets sick how much time & energy will you spend online trying to solve it? A lot less then for a $100 fish. But go to a non-Discus fish forum and take a look at how many people are having issues keeping Guppies, Convicts, Angels etc.

I also agree that all aquarium fish should have a baseline level of care whether they're Convicts or Discus. When I had Convicts, Angels & Rams they all got the same treatment that my Discus did. When I changed water I changed water in all tanks. I didn't rely on the idea that Convicts can live in a toilet so my tank could resemble a toilet. So I disagree that Discus are any more difficult to keep then Angels... mainly because I disagree that the hobbyist should treat either fish differently. So if you believe that Discus "require" daily water changes then I don't see why you'd think that Angels don't "require" the same. Show me a study that explains the differing needs of the fish. Treat both types of fish equally well and they'll both thrive. Treat both types like crap and they'll both die.

I'd keep a minimum of a dozen fish in a 75g tank. If you get them <2" then I'd start them in a smaller tank or get a larger group. In the end I'd be comfortable with 10 adults in a 75g tank.

[ShinShin]

You are spending too much time reading between the lines of my words. Read the black print only. Of course, all fish require a baseline amount of care. The baseline is different for different species. The reason for most of the health issues posted on this and other discus boards is a direct result of people not knowing the requirements of discus. Treat discus like most other common tropicals and success will not happen. It's people telling beginners misinformation that is more detrimental to their success. Just read the boards. It happens over and over.

The difficulty in proper care of discus is why discus aren't a $3.00 fish. Quality costs money. Look at alot of the crap being offered for sale. :)

If anybody wants to do 40% daily water changes on convicts, go ahead. But, it's a huge waste of time and water. Have fun. ;)

[JeffreyRichard]

Treat discus like most other common tropicals and success will not happen. It's people telling beginners misinformation that is more detrimental to their success. Just read the boards. It happens over and over.



I believe YOU are telling misinfortion if you claim discus MUST be maintained to the level of care you are alluding to. Discus CAN be raised and CAN thive with much less work than daily water changes and bare-bottom tanks ... I've done it for 14 years.

Daily water changes and bare-bottom yada yada yada IS a way to keep discus ... it is proven, and the chances of problems are less than the simple methodology I advocate.

But if your fish keeping husbandry for OTHER tropicals does not keep discus alive and thriving, then you have a problem with how you are keeping the other fish.

[JeffreyRichard]

If anybody wants to do 40% daily water changes on convicts, go ahead. But, it's a huge waste of time and water. Have fun. ;)


If you are here telling us that you HAVE TO do 40% daily water changes with discus, you are absolutely wrong ... This is the type of mis-information that get's me irked!

Sorry if I keep pushing this, and this isn't meant to be a slam at anyone who advocates the Discus Only/Bare Bottom/daily water change route ... as I said over and over again, that method works

Carol, I know you advocate that approach ... you do a great job :D :D :D here on the forum, and the last thing I want to do is send a perception that I'm slamming you or your approach.

I'm asking folks to acknowledge that equally successful approaches to keeping discus are available to beginners (or anyone), especially when asked if one can keep discus with other fish, or in a planted tank. Advice, in my opinion, should be given out as options and alternatives ... depending on one's goals and expectations

If someone wants Max growth with the largest margin of error for mishaps, and doesn't care about Aesthetics, then Bare-Bottom/Discus Only/ 5 or feedings daily w daily Water changes would be the recommended approach If workload (effort) is a driver, then one should have as large a tank as possible, with heavy filtration, and a light fishload, with once or 2x daily feedings ... one could get away with a weekly or twice weekly water change in that senario If one want to keep a "community environment" for their discus, again, as large a tank as possible, light fishload

This isn't meant to be the all inclusive list, BTW

Nothing is absolute ... situational factors and personal drivers need to be considered when giving advice.

[Dave C]

Too many people put too many Discus into a tank and feed them too much food. That means that daily w/c become a necessity. Not because they are Discus but because of the crowding and feeding. I find that the average Angel hobbyist is much less focused on feeding & growth. They tend to feed flakes, pellets and bloodworms, rather then beefheart. The Angel breeders that I've spoken to crowd them while they're young and change a lot of water as a result. Check out the drip systems that many Angel breeders have in their fishrooms, why do you think they need those?

Any fish will suffer if you crowd it, overfeed it, and under-maintain it. If anything, Discus owners would be better off if they did treat Discus like other tropical fish. Then they would be less likely to overcrowd their fish and also less likely to feed 7x a day with meat. But since these boards exist and the goal of most of the members is to attain maximum growth in the shortest time possible we recommend that people overstock their tanks and feed their fish a ton of food. And I do the same. I'm not criticizing the boards, I'm saying that if you overstock & overfeed and therefore must do more maintenance then with other fish perhaps it's not because the fish are more sensitive.

If I put six 2" Discus into a 75g tank and fed them flake food and bloodworms and fed them twice a day sparingly, they'd require no more maintenance then six 2" Angels in the same tank with the same feeding. And I would expect no more problems with the Discus then the Angels. If you believe that those Discus would require daily 40% w/c go ahead but it's a huge waste of time & water. The same goes for the Angels. It is our decisions which cause the add'l maintenance and the problems, not the sensitivity of the fish. That's my opinion.

[Sayersweb]

As a new discus owner (4 weeks now) I must admit the talk of daily water changes, daily glass wipe-downs, and the need for bare-bottom tanks nearly scared me off. My wife would never accept a tank without substrate.

I ended up going with 8 discus (2.5" to 3.5") for my 120 gallon tank and have them with a pleco, Panda Corys, Blue Rams, and Dwarf Neon Rainbows. There are two large pieces of driftwood, a few large rocks, several silk plants, and about 75 pounds of gravel. Filtration is supplied by two dual bio-wheel hang-on-back units. The tank/bio filters were already established since I moved the Uaru and other inhabitants from the tank to the 180 gallon when I brought home the discus.

I've been doing 25% water changes every third day, removing the silk plants and rocks and moving the driftwood so that I can completely vacuum the gravel bed. Ammonia and Nitrites have not shown in any of the tests. My Nitrate kit is no good and I have a new one on the way.

I've been feeding fairly heavily.... Tetra color bits and various freeze dried and frozen foods. Anything the discus miss is quickly cleaned up by the other inhabitants. My wife was saying last night that she thought the discus had grown quite a bit since we got them. I can't tell since I focus on them several times a day.

I've not wiped the glass down yet since the pleco seems to actively pursue it. Maybe I should do it though?

So far, so good.... I guess time will tell if my approach is ok. Once I get the Nitrate test kit I may try to do water changes only twice a week, depending on how the water conditions test.

I'm glad that I went with discus. They are quite interactive.... always coming toward the end of the tank that I happen to be standing. Very curious by nature and beautiful to look at.

[Tad]

Interesting discussion on what is a workable approach to successfully raise discus. ;)

Just my observation: I also believe that Carol does an excellent job promoting a tried and proven approach. That being stock somewhere around 1 Discus per 10 gallons, BareBottomed aquarium and filtration ranging from Hang On the Backs to Air Driven sponges, and WCs. I do believe that Carol takes the angle of the "Best Chance" based upon her experience and promotes such success based upon that this section is called "Discus Basics for Beginners". That said I do believe that beginners can take this approach initially and build their husbandry skills overtime and accordingly. Basically I feel its just good advice on Carols part based upon her knowlegable background with discus, Obviously successful from what I have seen. I also think we all can agree that this approach has a high level of success, even with its high amount of water changes, feeding schedules etc.....I look at Carols approach as ONE viable option to success with discus. I also can agree with Jeff, Larry and Dave that there are a lot of things we can do differently and still be highly successful with discus. Some newbies with their background with other tropicals can transfer their fish knowledge and utilize different approaches and definately be just as successful. In all essence I myself like to hear of others tried and proven options as it definately gives me choices. There is a lot of experience in all that have posted in this thread I can respect all of your opinions and willing to definately give some of your ideas a try (some I already do ;D) I guess all that I would like to see is that those who are entering the fish hobby for the "first time" to not be scared to raise discus but to also take the approach which gives them the best chance of success based upon what they learn from the experienced who post here...again there are many approaches some that I have taken myself and currently employ.. IMO I think the approach that Carol post for true newbies is a pretty good recommendation and one that can be built upon. JMO!

With regards to all of you,
Tad

[alex_m]

Hi,

well, i disagreed when Jeff said that angels get hexamita easier then discus......

But i agree with what he says about raising discus.........

The best approach for someone who is starting is to go for the big water changes with bare bottom...

Why? Cause the chances of that person making mistakes ( overfeeding and so on) are bigger.

However, as you get more involved in the hobby you find what works for you and what does not, and how you can get max. results with less cost.

I will tell you that in Europe most people do 10 % daily changes on their tanks........BUT

discus are kept in large tanks or they are on a central system so that the volume of water is tremendous.

I have seen dozen of tanks in Bulgaria that were planted and had juvenile discus in them...and the fish grew very fast w/ minimum care.

The tanks were from 175 to 250 gal, on central system.

So, to say that you cannot grow juv. discus in a planted tank is not true.

But for the beginner it is better to start out with some

"insurance".

JMO and IME

alex

[ShinShin]

I have kept discus under all sorts of conditions. I have seen the results of various methods I have used. I thought that I knew better than those who had come before me, after all, I have raised and bred all sorts of tropicals for decades. 40% water changes?? Was Wattley crazy?? No substrate?? How unsightly!!

I found that discus do best with large daily water changes. I do 40% daily, larger if I have a crowded tank. Wattley knew best on this one.Tanks are easiest to maintain with no substrate. Discus also do better in soft, acid water. These three items will give discus their best shot at living a long, disease-free life. That, and some good chow.

People who have disease problems are failing in one of the three mentioned above (a discus can grow large and healthy on just a high grade pellet, by the way).

I rarely have a disease problem. When I do, it usually comes with the fish I have just purchased. Disease problems that I have had that broke out in my tanks came when I failed one of the three above items, usually getting lazy on water changes. Gravel is a nest for parasites. :)

[Wolf_Mek]

Discus also do better in soft, acid water. These three items will give discus their best shot at living a long, disease-free life. That, and some good chow.

People who have disease problems are failing in one of the three mentioned above (a discus can grow large and healthy on just a high grade pellet, by the way).

While I do know that they come from soft, acidic water, I have to disagree that it is a "key" factor. More key, IMHO is temperature, I haven't seen very many discus survive long term in temperatures below 82F.. though I like to keep mine above 84F... Not to mention many, many people successfully keep discus in hard, alkaline water with little for problems. Another key to keeping your fish disease free is to quarentine, quarentine, quarentine. Both of which I place far above soft, acidic water.

Also, I could be wrong, but I think I've read somewhere that juveniles are better off when raised in harder water; as the minerals aid in growth.

[ShinShin]

Well, first of all, quarantining all new discus is something all experienced discus keepers have adopted as SOP, and is not included in my thinking of keeping discus disease free. I was talking about after the QT period and into the fishroom, keeping a healthy discus healthy throuhgout it's lifetime.

I have raised discus in water from 78F to 90F, and I have reached the conclusion that 82F-84F as a min/max range is best. Some perfer higher temps, but I haven't heard a good reason yet for temps at 86F-88F.

If a discus is indigenous to soft, acid water, why would keeping them in the same be dismissed as a key factor in a fishroom by it's keeper?

Truth is, many people have adopted various methods for keeping discus based solely on the easier, softer way. They have no idea on the long term effects of their methods on their discus because of several reasons. 1) Their fish die and it is attributed to a reason really unknown to the keeper. 2) They jump from one "hot, new method" to another, never seeing the results of any particular method. Or, 3)they simply unload the fish and buy new discus because the are bored with what they have. Other reasons may and can be factored into this, of course.

Also, isn't it funny how baby discus grow up to be big discus in the wild, with all that soft water and all? ;) Hard water aids the breeder in shorter tank time for his spawns. Quicker turnaround times. That's is the ONLY reason hard water is benefical, to the breeder, not the fish. ;)

[Wolf_Mek]

Well, first of all, quarantining all new discus is something all experienced discus keepers have adopted as SOP, and is not included in my thinking of keeping discus disease free.

But this is the discus newbie forum ;) ;D.


So you're saying that if a domestic discus is born and raised in water with a pH of say 8.5 and a gH of 15 that it should be kept in soft acidic water just because that is what their ancestors lived in?

Simply, I have read many times on this forum that discus don't have to have soft, acidic water to thrive from people who have kept and raised discus for a long time. While my discus keeping is very limited, none of my fish have exhibited negative effects of my water (pH 8, gH 8*).

Also, discus are far more adaptable to water conditions than they're given credit for... I was told by more than one person on here that my tank conditions would be fine for even wild caught fish.

That is why I don't believe pH values are not very important when keeping most fish. IMO, I think pH is overrated on most occasions anyway... most fish species can be kept in water with a pH between 6-8.5 perfectly fine with a few exceptions (Rift lake cichlids for example).

Also, a temperature of 84-88F is important. It helps discus fight off disease far more than a correct pH value ever would. On top of that, the parasite ich cannot survive at temperatures of 85F and higher.... so I see a big plus to higher temperatures... especially when keeping juveniles.

So, hard water aids in discus growth (I never said they didn't grow well in soft, acidic water BTW)... seems to me that it's beneficial to the fish as well as the breeder.

Sorry if this sounds more argumentative than like a friendly debate, that's not my intention.

[RyanH]

The only real benefit of a low pH that I have observed first hand is that it does help to encourage spawning. Otherwise, Discus will do fine in a higher pH.

[JeffreyRichard]

If a discus is indigenous to soft, acid water, why would keeping them in the same be dismissed as a key factor in a fishroom by it's keeper?

Also, isn't it funny how baby discus grow up to be big discus in the wild, with all that soft water and all? ;) Hard water aids the breeder in shorter tank time for his spawns. Quicker turnaround times. That's is the ONLY reason hard water is benefical, to the breeder, not the fish. ;)



An affermative answer in one situation does not mean the opposite is false ... your answer implies that raising discus in harder water is bad. While I agree that a comprehensive analysis has not been completed regarding the long term effects of harder, less acid water, the empirical evidence I've seen is that Discus can thrive (not just live) in harder, less acid water conditions than their native SA rivers & streams.

ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL ... discus are better off in as close to natural conditions as possible. BUT ALL THINGS ARE RARELY EVER EQUAL ... I maintain it is more difficult and more risky to try and duplicate water conditions through chemistry ... stable water is better and SAFER (in MOST situations) than chemically altered water. It is better for someone to keep a low bioload of discus in a tank that gets weekly water changes than to try and keep more discus in a barebottom tank with daily water changes IF the person is not committed to daily water changes ... and most people who keep discus are not the same "breed" as us freaks who love our fish and dedicate all our free time to it.

So when you consider ALL the factors your recommendations come up short IMO

[Dave C]

Which are harder, Angels or Discus? Don't they both come from soft, acidic water? If so, it's not really a point of difference between the two as both would benefit from such water in the hobbyist's tank. Perhaps one of the things that makes people think Discus are harder to care for is this notion that they have to alter their water for Discus. Such altering could be the cause of more deaths then any other factor.

[ShinShin]

My answer implies no such thing. Raising discus fry in hard water is beneficial to the breeder, not the discus. Discus grow very well in their natural habitat, just slower.

And to answer the post before, where is it documented that faster is better for the discus in kept in a fish tank? I can see where in the wild such logic might be entertained, but, oh yeah, Mother Nature found it best for them to grow up in mineral poor water. ;D Again, the breeder for dollars is the only one benefitted here. :)

[JeffreyRichard]

This is getting irritating to the point that I have to refrain from making this a debate based on persanalities ... which is not beneficial to the community.

Let's agree to the following:
Some experienced fish keepers find keeping discus more difficult than keeping angelfish; some experienced keepers find them to be caparable. Conclusion for both sides are NOT based on scientific fact, but personal observation and emperical evidence. There are a number of different SUCCESSFUL approaches to keeping discus; discus keepers (or potential discus keepers) should try to understand as many approaches as possible and should consider what your own objectives are to determine what might work for you Each of us who have kept fish a while have our own opinions and feeling regarding what is important and what works (or doesn't work) Finally, no one opinion, approach or methodology is absolutely right or should be considered "the Best". All aprroaches have merit and must be considered

[ShinShin]

Gee, Jeff, I didnt find it irratating at all. Perhaps you felt that way because I don't and won't subscribe to your way of thinking? :) You seem to be making it personal, not me. ;)

I am just finding it boring, that's all.

Have a great day, but only if you want to have one. ;D

[JeffreyRichard]

Gee, Jeff, I didnt find it irratating at all. Perhaps you felt that way because I don't and won't subscribe to your way of thinking? :) You seem to be making it personal, not me. ;)

I am just finding it boring, that's all.

Have a great day, but only if you want to have one. ;D


whatever ... I tire of you insignificance. Try bring some value to the table instead of picking a fight.

[Lauren]

Well I must say, my angels are giving me a run for my money when it comes to breeding.. The very rare times my double dark pairs lay eggs now they dont fertilize them, before this they did fertilize but ate the eggs or freeswimmers. My gold marble pair has also stopped laying eggs BLAH although I am raising a batch of babies from them now.

I'd say there are people on here having a much easier time breeding discus than I am with angels right now LOL

As for keeping, I dont think I've kept discus long enough to make a valid decision so I'll just share some random ideas. I think so far its about the same, what angels make up for in hardiness they lack in social skills (IE, beating eachother to death). Angels are also easily replacable & inexpensive. Most people must have decent discus shipped to them which adds in another factor that could open a can of worms so to speak, whereas I think alot of people possibily have a good quality angelfish breeder nearby or at least one LFS with decent stock.

Lauren

[ShinShin]

No one was picking a fight but you. I not once made a personal attack on you. Can you say the same? Insignificance? I had to ask Cary who you were last week. Goes to show how well you are known. Obviously, your own opinions are all that have any credibility in your mind. I just didn't get dicus just last month or last year or, last decade as far as that goes. I have alot of personal experince in alot of areas of discus rearing. I have done alot of experimenting in husbandry and form my convictions from experience, not just regurgatating info gotten off a particular forum like many many do. They haven't had discus long enough to know the things they speak of. So, maybe your considered a big shot by them, but not me. I have my own experience. When I address you, I'll look you in the eye. Don't look or speak down to me. Your not big enough, unless your on a step-stool. ;)

Mat :)

[Wolf_Mek]

Sooo... how 'bout them red sox ::).


Like someone already said, there are many ways to keep discus (successfully) and just because they differ doesn't mean that there's a definite path between wrong and right.

[lauris]

Lauren, maybe your angels are giving you a break. I have a pair that has laid every week for about two years. In the last two years in the same fish room I have raised 35 discus fry and thousands and thousands and thousands of angel fry (3 pairs of discus, one angel pair). I guess it depends on how you define your terms (keeping versus thriving versus reproducing) but it seems to me like some people on this thread are ignoring the obvious...as in, isn't there a correlation between the fact that juvenile angels are worth less than a buck and juvenile discus bring $30-40 and more and the fact that one might be 'harder' to keep than the other? I would say the market provides objective data regarding the comparative difficulties in keeping angels versus discus.

[ShinShin]

You're exactly right, Lauris. ;)

[Condor]

I'm sorry to interject here, but all this seems kind of silly. After a certain point, I think that it is best to agree to disagree. Bottom line, this is a forum to help people. It is also (as I remember) against the rules of this forum to tear each other down. I respect the opinions of all parties involved of this discussion and feel that there is a validity to each point of view. I know that that sounds very pc, but its true. This kind of debate is beneficial to beginners, as it presents all sides of the story. However, I do not think that personal debate benefits anybody

[JeffreyRichard]

No one was picking a fight but you. I not once made a personal attack on you. Can you say the same? Insignificance? I had to ask Cary who you were last week. Goes to show how well you are known. Obviously, your own opinions are all that have any credibility in your mind. I just didn't get dicus just last month or last year or, last decade as far as that goes. I have alot of personal experince in alot of areas of discus rearing. I have done alot of experimenting in husbandry and form my convictions from experience, not just regurgatating info gotten off a particular forum like many many do. They haven't had discus long enough to know the things they speak of. So, maybe your considered a big shot by them, but not me. I have my own experience. When I address you, I'll look you in the eye. Don't look or speak down to me. Your not big enough, unless your on a step-stool. ;)

Mat :)


I'll end the conversation with you with an apology to you regarding my use of "insignificant" ... that was uncalled for ... just as your comments are in the last post ...

My intent in this thread has to try and engage in a debate about the merrits of one approach vs another ... In fact I've acknowledged several times in this thread alone that there are many different ways to keep discus successfully. Your responses imply that there aren't other ways to be successful ...

For the record, I've raised several thousand of discus and tens of thousands of angelfish; I had a commercial operation for over 12 years, and more than several regulars on the board have visited my hatchery.

I don't spend a lot of time here ... not because I don't want to but I have a very busy life at the moment ... so I'm not a "regular". And I'm not in this for promoting "me" ... I enjoy healthy debates AND I do take the general angelfish discussions more seriously than most (angelfish are my 1st love, and they get a bad rap from some discus keepers). And I also get passionate about "absolute rights/wrongs" when giving advice to others (particularly newbies).

My methods work for me ... they are not absolute, scientifically proven, or should be considered "the best". I have consistantly stated this ... have you said the same?

I'm more than happy to engage the merits of different approaches ... these are the types of info exchanges that provide significant value to others ... promote thinking and innovation.

Sorry to the rest of the board users for ranting ...