Breaks My Heart

[Cosmo]

Just came back upstairs from the fishroom where I've got a 90 gal w/ 6 gorgeous little 3 inchers I got from Cary two weeks ago. They are the picture of health :) Coloring up nicely too :)

Upstairs where as little as 10 days ago my 11 adults were the most healthy, happy, and beautiful Discus I have ever owned. Most of them I've had close to two years.

Because of a miscalculation, that on paper should have worked, theeir water chemistry went out of whack and I've spent the better part of my evenings and weekends fighting to keep them alive. The tank has thankfully rebalanced, but I have still have at least three that remain at risk. :'( :'( :'(

The juxtaposition of the two scenarios is breath taking, and very depressing. With a little luck I'll save them all, but I figure best case is that I've got a long haul in front of me before things get back to where they were. Worst case I don't want to think about right now.

Fishroom construction is at a stand still, hopefully I'll get back to it soon. Always wanted one, and I'm too close to completion to let it go. But it's difficult to get excited about it with what I'm dealing with upstairs.

Apologize for the depressing post, and want to say thank you once again to everyone that responded to my post for help.. wouldn't have gotten this far without you :)

Jim

[Ardan]

Jim,
Hope things get better for you.

we all learn in many ways. Sometimes from each other and sometimes the hard way, by mistakes. I have learned many things both ways and there is always more to learn.
Never a dull moment ;D
Best of luck!

[April]

well..sorry to hear. they can look sooooooo bad..then all of a sudden..one morning..they look good again. hope yours get happy and smiling again very soon. got my fingers crossed for you.
your not alone..alot of us have had major water disasters.
surely you could never live without them...so carry on. get that fishroom done.

[Cosmo]

Thanks Ardan

Thanks April

They are looking better today :) Always asking for more food too :)

Appreciate the encouragement... it really helps

Jim

[oodi]

Jim,

I'm glad to hear they are doing better! Hang in there!!

Judi
:)

[Cosmo]

Thanks Oodi.. appreciate it :)

Think they're all gonna make it... knock on wood..

Jim

[Benis]

Jim,
I hope everything goes well for the big guys. You just hang in there and do what ever you can do :).


Hans

[fish_maniac]

Jim,
I am glad they are better. Hangs on there, They need your help and don't give up!

Kam

[Cosmo]

Thanks Hans

Thanks Kam

No choice but to hang in there.. but all the words of encouragement and support sure do ease a lot of the emotional burden .. can't tell you how much it helps :)

They are just about back to their old selves, and the two I was most worried about are both definately improving by the day.

Don't want to get too optomistic yet, but everyone of them gathers around the worm feeders whenever I even walk into the room now :heart1: and I think that's a good sign :)

Thanks again ALL

Jim

I wish you better times, Cosmo. With experience comes the learning and with learning is (your) experience first hand.

Best wishes,
*Angie*

[Anonapersona]

Cosmo,

I've been thinking about what happened to you and it seems to me that the media didn't need to be boiled.

A wet/dry ought to have two types of bacteria in it, most of the bacteria is the sort that needs lot of oxygen, but some, deep in the pores of the media does it's work with out oxygen.

When a tank has no power and no oxygen that aerobic bacteria starts to die off pretty fast. That is the horrible smell you smelled. But the internal bacteria should have been fine as it didn't need oxygen. I think that had you just washed the filter well you probably could have restarted it and been OK faster, with some Prime and a lot of water changes and testing for ammonia and so on.

I did a very sloppy experiment with a dry biowheel just before I moved the 55 gallon tank indoors. I added a lot of ammonia (4 ounces?) to the 55 gallon tank and put on a used filter that had been in the attic for 9 months or so, with a used biowheel that had been rinsed but never sterilized after using 9 months earlier. In just a few days the ammonia began falling rapidly -- I think I let it run less than a week and it was nearly done with the ammonia cycle.

So, I think the bacteria are very resilient, they can come back from the dead. So, it that ever happens again, don't throw out the media, just clean it and the hoses too, and start it up with some Prime in the tank to contain the early toxic spikes.

[Howie_W]

Jim,

Glad to hear all has gone well! :D

No matter how long you've been in this hobby, sometime things just happen. I think the worse mistake I've ever made is completing changes to an existing tank late in the day, and then going to bed without the opportunity to monitor the changes.

We've all been there bro... :)

Howie

[Cosmo]

Thanks Angie... things are looking much much better. Still haven't turned the tank lights on yet, but with the ambient room light everything is back to normal in appearance. Seems the meds and the salt is doing the trick and those that looked bad a few days ago appear to be on the mend :)

Jim

[Cosmo]

Ann, if your theory applies to a "normal" cannister as well as a w/d you could very well be right. The w/d was never shut down and was the one I was counting on to hold the the tank stable while the cannister set up. The capacity of both the w/d and cannister are rated to hold a tank of this size their own by eheim.

Still thinking the problem was clogged pores on the cannisters media caused by the massive die off of bacteria when the filter died.. question is whether or not the boiling caused a more massive die off that clogged the pores, or, if the pores were already clogged before the boiling. I had hoped the turbulance of the boiling might loosen up any dead material and wash them away. Without sufficient surface area, the colonies just didn't have enough living space and therefore couldn't grow to sufficient numbers. Either way, I think it would have been smarter to toss it and start over with new considering the shape it was in.

Once I removed some of the mechanical media and added the 2ltrs of new bio media, things came around rather quickly, although that could have been a coincedence of timing I guess since that was over a week since the cannister had been up and running on the tank again.

I've used bio wheels that have been dried and in storage forever as well, and they've always come back to life, difference may be that the the bio wheels in my experience at least have been removed and allowed to air dry, rather than sit in a sea of dead bacteria and stagnant water for a period of time. Also, don't know if the pores on the bio wheel material react and behave the same way as the pores on the sintered glass media...

So many questions..

Jim

[Anonapersona]

But my point is the bacteria in the pores didn't need oxygen in the first place. Only the surface bacteria relied on the oxygen, thos prose are pretty clogged up already in just a few weeks. The surface bacteria was in great distress with no O2 but the deeper stuff was probably fine until the boiling.

I've decided I'll never again try to sterilized media. I bleached a filter once and had a cycle from hell. It seems that damaged bacteria is nasty but can recover but killed by bleach is anther thing entirely, I suspect that boiling is in the same catagory as bleach. nextt ime I need to deal with media that is suspect I'll dry it thouroughly in the sun after rinsing, then reuse.

In fact, I have some dried filter debris from the pond filter that I've accumulated after Tom Barr said that you should add it under gravel in a new tank to get the plants started off right. It'd be interesting to add that to a clean, sterilized tank with a big dose of ammonia and a new filter to see how long a cycle takes. It may be the dried is not the same a s killed.

[Cosmo]

Ann,

Understood your point, but even if the bacteria deep down inside the media that doesn't require oxygen is fine, if the surface area is clogged with dead bacteria does it really matter... if the water doesn't reach the inner pores, and the surface is so clogged new O2 loving bacteria can't get established, will the necessary bioactivity take place?

I've taken sintered glass bio media out of filters before while the filter was alive and allowed it to air dry, and this media comes right back and works just fine.. similar to the bio wheel coming back so I would go along with you on the sun drying, or simply air drying in those cases.

I'll shoot myself, or maybe just go without sleep for a night, before I let a cannister die again, but if it should ever happen, into the trash it goes. Just not worth the risk IMO

Jim

[kaceyo]

Hi Cos, I think the real lesson hear is not to use filters that can plug up, like canisters, and stick to easily maintained types of filters. As far as the anaerobic bacteria goes It is only usefull for its denitrating qualities and is very hard to control. I think if you smelled a rotten egg smell (the anaerobic bacteria) they were the problem. They realy have no place in a freshwater tank system thats getting frequent large wc's. I'd be thinking about trading the canisters in on true trickle filters. JMO, KC

[Cosmo]

Hey KC,

Acrylic tanks.. closed tops so can't hang anything off the back except for a couple of syphon hoses. Nice tanks, lightweight, great thermal properties, but limits your options when it comes to filtration

Jim

[kaceyo]

I've had a couple of those. The one I used for a reef tank I had the bottom drilled, put a bulkhead and pvc stand pipe for an overflow into a tricklefilter in the stand under the tank. The only plumbing outside the tank was the return line. If I did it again I'd run the return
through the bottom of the tank/stand too. That way all the ballvalves, checkvalves etc would be out of sight. Of cource you need someplace to put the fish while doing the modifications. Are your fish still getting better every day? Later, KC

[Cosmo]

KC,

Yep :) :) Thanks for asking :) The female RT is still a concern, but she's looking better today than yesterday which was better than the day before... the rest of them are their old selves again ;D

Had thought of driling the drain through the bottom and wish I had now... maybe next tank ? Think I'll stick with the spraybars for the return line though... can live with a few hoses in the back :)

later
Jim