Tank Buddies = Discus Nightmare

[Jeff]

Oh when the good turns to bad it's really bad. Anyone who knows me knows I have tried just about every drug on the market and a few not on the market on my discus. The goal is simple. I'm always striving for healthier discus when I send them to my customers.

The other day I found out my pazi had gone bad. I always treat my discus with prazi before I ship them. I had ordered more but it had not come in. A friend of mine suggested he used a product by Jungle called Parasite Clear "Tank Buddies". It looked like a good product to me mostly containing prazi. I went out and purchased enough to treat several tanks. Day 1 I treated 2 tanks. I noticed after 18 hours the discus were coming to the top and the tank was very cloudy. No problem. I did a 90% water change. The next day the discus were fine. No worms though. My friend said he saw worms after 15-17 hours so I figured this tank was clear. So I did the same on a few more tanks. I followed the recommended dosage of 1 tablet per 10 gallons of water. This time a few tanks did not make it 12 hours and the discus were gasping for air. So again I did a 90% water change. It was 11:00 at night so after the water change I left and set my alarm for 3:00am to come back and check on them. Well you can see what I found.

All I can say is if you have used this product and it works good for you. If you have not used this product DON'T. I see no reason to. I will never again use this product. My thoughts are my water is high Ph 7.8 and high hardness 780ms. It looks like it works well in soft water, but I have no desire to experiment with this product any further. I'll stick to the real deal Pazi and mix it myself.

[Jeff]

another shot

[bryalk1]

Jeff
Thanks for the info. I will sure stay away.
Sorry about your losses.
Bryant

[KD]

Oh my God! What a shame!
I've used this once with high PH and hardness and my fish were fine. They did not produce worms either. I think this product has metro in it too?? My tank just turned a shade different and a tiny bit cloudy. I do have 2 large AC filters and two sponges on a 90 gallon. Do you think it could have been that it reduced the oxygen in the tank?
I feel terrible for you, I would have had a heart attack if that happened to me.
Maybe you should contact Jungle and see what they have to say.
So sorry!
Karen

[Barb Newell]

Hi Jeff, sorry to hear. I've used it in my ph of 7.7 and haven't had a problems. What was your tank temp when you used it?

Barb

[jeep]

What a shame! I've used it on fry as young as 2 weeks and have never had any problems...

[Robin764]

Ack!! Very sorry Jeff:( I've used it multiple times, on new fish, etc. I was warned however to provide extra air stones while treating. I think Jungle needs to put that warning on the package. How terrible for you!
Thanks for the heads up....I'm not sure I'd use again either.

Robin

[Cosmo]

Jeff,

That pic breaks my heart :cry:

Sorry about your tragic loss :( but thanks for the heads up

Jim

[Glenn]

Jeff that sucks bud if you have any left send it up and I will test it on some culls in soft water

[tpl*co]

OMG Jeff, I'm so sorry :( . I've used the product more than a couple times on my tank with good results on new discus (used a little less though on my tank, 4 tabs instead of 5). What kind of filtration was going on the tanks? I have softened water and my pH is about 7.6-7.8.

[ShinShin]

That's a real shame about all the dead discus. Seveal months ago I bought enough to treat 300 gallons per pkg. instructions (I got a great deal on them, that's why I tried them). I never used them before. I had no adverse effects whatsoever on any of my discus, albino bushynose, and a pair of blue rams. I do not know if pH and water hardness has an effect or not. My water out of the tap is very soft and slightly acid.

[funkyfish]

sorry bout ur loss i have use it for a long time now and have never had a prob my ph is 8.1 and pretty hard water :(

[Jeff]

No idea why it so adversely affected my discus, but it did.

[Barb Newell]

I think it is like Dylox, you must keep your tank temp under 83 or 84 and add extra aeration. I've read that the chemical in it becomes more toxic with higher temps.

Barb

[Jeff]

Possibly. My temp is 84-86.

[brewmaster15]

Jeff,
Sorry to hear that but I have to tell you, Good Parasite clear is safe for discus. I have used it for years on wilds and domestics, fry as young as day swimmers and breeders. I have reccommended it countless as a safe med and never had anyone come back with a problem. Its an excellent antiparasitic and one that I have used in tanks with pH as low as 4.2 and as high as 7.8.

Maybe the particular product you had was bad. You should contact the MFG and send some in to them. Parasite clear contains... Prazi, metro, and acriflavin. none of which is hard on a discus.


I don't think your hard water was a problem either..I know its a widely used med in both KOI and african circles.

Was there anything else in the water with the med... formalin, Hydrogen peroxide? these are very reactive. Copper? How about your other tanks, are they all fine..? Theres not a chance your filtration system let some of that nasty city water thru?

Really sorry you had a problem.. Thats not the norm with this product though, of that I am reasonably sure.

I too would take some from you and test it along side my tablets here for you if you would like.
-al

[brewmaster15]

Jeff,
You also mentioned that your Prazi had gone bad? How do you know ?

and did these fish get treated with that Bad Prazi prior to the parasite clear? maybe somesort of toxic accumulation from the two?

Just a thought.
-al

[Carol_Roberts]

Sorry for your loss, Jeff :( I have also used Parasite Clear many times in my pH 7.8 GH 12 water with no adverse results. I dose 1 tab per 10 gallons on day one and day three with 50% daily water changes, normal temp 82-84. I last used it about 6 months ago and found it to be less stressful than fluke tabs. Thanks for the warning - I'll watch the fish carefully when I use it again.

[Jeff]

These particular ones that died were not exposed to the old prazi. I believe the old prazi went bad because I treated discus that I sold and they had no worms. After they were sold people told me they found a lot of worms. So I'm thinking my old prazi is bad, or I should have had some worms. That was on my last batch of discus. This is a completely separate batch. Before I used Tank Buddies I have not medicated for over 10 days. Copper was never used on these guys. All good points I can see would cause a problem, but I didn't exist.

I even have 1 60 gallon tank with 5 adults in it. This was the last tank to be treated I only had 4 tablets left. I thought it can't hurt so I added them into the tank. The results are the same.

I'm really not sure what happened. I bought 3 packs from Pet smart. That is all they had. I then went to Pet co and bought 7 packs from them. So it wasn't even all from the same place. Unless they buy from the same distributor I would think it would be different batches. But who knows.

I really don't think its my water as the tanks I treated first are doing ok. They are back to normal. I just did another wcs on them and they are fine. The rest still look a bit beat, but I think the ones still alive will come around.

I just don't think I will be giving this product another shot. It's way to risky to me unless someone comes up with a good idea of what happened. It's very simple to use. 1 tablet per 10. I did like that though. But dam the results were horrible.

Plop plop fizz fizz of what a disaster it is!!!!!!!!

[brewmaster15]

Jeff,
Do you have any you can send me?

-al

[Jason]

sorry to hear Jeff,

accidents happen to everyone, look what I came home today.....stuck heater

[brewmaster15]

:( :( :( :( :(

-al

[Jeff]

Dam Jason.

I used it all Al. I will go to the store and see if there is any left.

[Jeff]

I looked on the box, but I don't see any lot numbers or anything.

[basshead]

I am so sorry for your losses. I feel for you. I will not use that product unless it's an emergency. I have some but I haven't the need to use it now. Thanks for the warning.

[Jeff_NZ]

Jeff and Jason

It was devastating to see that, im very very sorry for your loss's. :(

Jeff have to got intouch with the manufacturers of the product? Most companies will stand behind their product, maybe you did get a bad batch.

[ShinShin]

Well, this is all quite perplexing. At least Jason knows exactly what his problem was (sorry Jason). I have had two events that killed fish and never found out the cause and blamed the water (which I think really was the problem). I'll never know for certain. The first involved three excellant breeding pairs, the second 15 adults, including several good breeding pairs.

The fast kill time would indicate a toxin. Two sources for the medication, I would almost rule out that as the origin.

[ed8t]

Really sorry for the losses Jeff and Jason.

[Jeff]

Thanks guys. I did email Jungle. The problem is I don't see any lot numbers to identify my batch. I just wanted to let everyone know I had a problem with it. If you can use it great, but for me it did not work. After the $$$$ I just lost I don't think I'll be giving it a second chance. I'll stick with what is proven.

[jules]

Hi Jeff, what a horrible sight- sorry. Jason also :(
Just to let you know I purchased Parasite clear from Petsmart and used it in my GH 15, PH 7.8, temp 88-90 with no adverse effects.
Only one thing I noted was I have one Discus who has bad eyesight and he was in a little rough shape because he can't compete with others anymore that well for food, so I assume his immune system was compromised. He did not take it well at all, he stopped eating(thought maybe prazi?) and as soon as I put carbon in and w/c he started eating again. I was using it to deworm them. Everyone else continued eating and passed some worms.
I won't use it again on this Discus, and after reading this I will definitely think about it twice.
I don't see any identifying numbers on the box either except TB635 and I assume this is a stock number. It was made in the USA.

Ammonia is more toxic in alkaline water.

Julie

[tpl*co]

My tank is at 86 without any ill effects, but now I wonder if I should use it again :( . (in fact after using this my young fish from the lfs started eating). What a terrible thing to happen :( . I was planning on getting a new fish and to treat them with this when they come in during quarantine, but now I wonder if I should.

[Northwestcoastdisc]

Jeff and Jason I am sorry lose,

In early spring 2000 , i had smailar as your happend to me! I bought 6 bottles of Kordan formain at Peterica. All bottles does not have seal caps. I use kordan formlin for treat all my fish for rid off parasities and gill fluke. I put them in all tanks about 8 to 9 pm I look at my fish were doing okay. two bottles empty and one is last it was about half, In the morning I check out my fish, My breed pair Candy apple reds, one blue diamond, one Hi Fin Cobalts and one gold dragon dead.. which they were live in two tanks other tanks were fine, I tested all tanks water Two tanks were something wrong to find out ammonia, nitrate, nitirite, and ph too I found out Its too hard and PH went to up! other tanks were perfect but turn color it was ammonia it was no big deal.
I tested the use half bottle of formain, the ph went up and too hard no sign for ammonia Other new bottle of formain was not use it . they were brand new, I tested for PH , nitrate, etc but Ammonia show colors wow that is very interested Ph, Nitrate, etc show nothing signal. Why two bottle are the same but I tested for ammonia, nitrate, ph show are diffrent they were really so ODD??? I smelled one half of formain it was nothing other brand new bottles were full I can smelled little bit. so I tried tasted with my finger dip from a half bottlepf formlin i can taste it was baking soda I tried taste the brand new bottle of formin taste so funny and werid. Now I know two bottle of the formlin are diffrent. What I think someone put baking soda in formain to return the shop.
I was really very upset and angry. I went to peterica i showed my death fish and bring the half bottle of formlin and brad new formin bottles I spoke to the manager about my fish die they were beauitful and lot of money to lose. Manager said sorry, they can take my death fish and half bottle of formlin to send Kordan company to find out. I have not hear from their reply to me. about 3 or 4 months later the manager said that there is nothing wrong. I was really angry They said that there is nothing wrong? They said they can not do anything.. I told the manger the bottle has no seal cap and why someone put baking soda in formlin. The manger said nothing to do. I told the manger I would never even to buy the production Kordan again. I told manger I bought formandahye 37% is more stronger chemical than the kordan formain. The formandahye 37% cost cheaper than the kordan formlin. that sucks biggest time!

Duncan

[Northwestcoastdisc]

What I believe its PH and hardness to make them shock to death.


Duncan

[Jeff]

Very true. That is why I shared this. Just so others can learn.

[Wahter]

I had a bad experience when I mixed metronidazole and praziquantel one time:

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?p=221248#post221248

I forgot to mention in that post that in my case, the water also became cloudy at first, then the fish started acting very sluggish/ drifting around and when I noticed one was gasping at the surface, I did several water changes.

I won't mix those two medicines again (might work for some people, but not for me). :(

Sorry for the loss of fish. :(


Walter

[Barb Newell]

Hi, I copied this from the site below:

"Clears external and internal parasites, including protozoans, flukes, lice, anchor worms, and flagellates such as hexamita or spironucleus. Contains dimethyl phosphonate, metronidazole, and acriflavine. One tablet per 10 gallons."
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4756&N=2004+113017



At another site, the ingredients are different.
Active ingredients: praziquantel; N-[[(N-Chlorophenyl)amino]carbon 1]-2,6-difluorobenzamide; metronidazole; acriflavine.
http://www.pet-dog-cat-supply-store.com/shop/index.php?page=shop-flypage-4224

What are the ingredients in the stuff you used Jeff?

Barb

[goldengatediscus]

Hi Jeff:
Just saw your post. So sorry to hear about losing all those beautiful fish. I lost a bunch several years ago, and it hurts.
Brigitte

[Wahter]

Hi, I copied this from the site below:

"Clears external and internal parasites, including protozoans, flukes, lice, anchor worms, and flagellates such as hexamita or spironucleus. Contains dimethyl phosphonate, metronidazole, and acriflavine. One tablet per 10 gallons."
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4756&N=2004+113017


At another site, the ingredients are different.
Active ingredients: praziquantel; N-[[(N-Chlorophenyl)amino]carbon 1]-2,6-difluorobenzamide; metronidazole; acriflavine.
http://www.pet-dog-cat-supply-store.com/shop/index.php?page=shop-flypage-4224

What are the ingredients in the stuff you used Jeff?

Barb

Barb,

Jungle's company webpage about the Parasite Clear Tank Buddies product is here:

http://www.junglelabs.com/pages/details.asp?item=TB635

And it says:

Clears external and internal parasites. No need to raise the water temperature. Also helps prevent secondary infections and will not harm biological filtration. The fizz lets you know it's working!

Details: Wait 48 hours between treatments. Remove activated carbon. Change 25% of the water before each new treatment. For anchor worms, repeat treatment up to three times, once a week, for three weeks. For fish lice, treat once a week for three to five weeks. DO NOT OVERDOSE. Active ingredients: praziquantel; N-[[(N-Chlorophenyl)amino]carbon 1]-2,6-difluorobenzamide; metronidazole; acriflavine

I had thought mixing metro and prazi was safe (since other people have used Parasite Clear without problems), but my results were similar to Jeff's - I was around my fish at the time, so I could saw what was happening and was able to save them with water changes though. :confused:

[Spices]

Hi Jeff,

I'm very :( for the loss. I sincerely understand the care you gave those fish and the confusion that lies within medicating fish. Wish you the best in recovery. :angel:
--Angie--

[Howie_W]

Hi Jeff and Jason,


I'm so sorry to hear of your losses!

Jeff,

It's hard to figure out exactly what occured and perhaps it was a bad batch...I don't blame you for wanting to stay away from the product.

Obviously an adverse reaction took place in the water column as indicated by the cloudiness...perhaps heavy increase in aeration would have helped in this situation...hopefully there will be better days ahead!


Howie

[ShinShin]

The cloudyness mentioned above w/ metro and prazi was not due to the med combo, rather it was caused by a bacterial bloom, stripping O2 from the water causing the problem. This is a common phenom with either of these two meds.

[Jeff]

Barb,

Mine was the second of the two descriptions you posted.

[jules]

Jeff, the one I used is also the second list of ingredients.

Northwestcoast made a point about hardness/ph. I didn't get any cloudiness but my cobalt was in distress for a reason. My water is gh 15, ph 7.8 and higher. I'm sure I've heard that new research indicates water hardness changes are equivalent to ph fluctuations(of course all related)
The acriflavine appeared to be affecting his nervous system, but he wasn't eating either and turning dark.

Julie

[jim_shedden]

wow........that is a shame jeff........sorry

jim

[Discus_KC]

Jeff,

Chin up Man !!!! It hurts, you blow off some steam and then get back and get more fish !!!! THat's what you've told me !!!!!! And I'm glad I have a friend like you !!!!

Thanks for sharing. That's what the hobby is about. Teaching us to not make the same mistakes !!!!

Jack

[jeep]

Everyone raises some good points, but IMO this should not have happened with this med. The only thing I could think of is it may be a bad batch???

[separatelife]

so sorry to hear it, so heart-breaking to see the photos. if it happened to me, i would cry like mad for a few days.
Thanks for your reminder. I dare not use any other medi to treat my fishes except melafix.
Sorry to your losses!!

[ShinShin]

I am really sorry that Jeff lost all those discus, but all that is going on here lends nothing to solving the problem. It was stated that the post was started to help others learn. Learn? Learn what? Nothing has been stated that lends anything towards a solution. The problem has not even been identified yet.

The product is safe. I used it. Many others have used it safely. Never have I seen a post anywhere claiming this product as unsafe.

Several people have posted problems pointing fingers at several products in this thread with no proof the product was the cause. Cloudiness with metro/prazi - a common problem when either product is used separately. Formalin deaths? Do you know if the product was ever stored below 40F? If so, you now have a lethal product - paraformaldahyde. It will kill.

Pointing fingers and guessing will not solve a thing. Send the water away to be tested.

[Robin764]

Basically, I think Jeff was trying to let us know that there is a potential problem with using this product. We might never know the why-for's, and what-not's that happened....however in meantime, each and every post is VERY important for trying to figure all this out.
I have NEVER had a problem with this product....but have heard variations about it...ie...half dosage for discus...etc.
Don't want folks thinking that since their post doesn't have a solution to the problem, that they shouldn't post....Who knows?.............maybe that off the wall comment, or episode will provide the solution.
Jeff had a very real problem here!!!!!
We might never know what caused it....but maybe someone saying...."Hey, ya know what happened to me once?" It's communication here that is the key....and what makes this forum work so well!
I can sit here and say...well....Jeff don't know what he's talking about....the product is safe...........It worked fine for me........
But then I can backspace and look at the heart-breaking pics he shared with us.....There is a problem somewhere....Let's share experience and figure it out!

Robin

[Robin764]

Post here on Simply....

was at a large supermarket chain store the other day and found that they carried a product called "Parasite Clear" By Jungle. I must have been hiding under this rock for a long time... i've never seen this product before. I juggled it in my hand for a little bit and decided to give in and give it a shot.
Here's my review.

Product: "Parasite Clear" by Jungle Labs.
Dosage means: Fizzy tablets. One tablet per 10 g.
Diseases treated (as advertized) : Gill mites, Body flukes, Anchor worms, gill flukes and fish lice.

Active Ingredients: Prazi, metro, acriflavine, 6-diflurobenzamide and N-(4-Chloropnenyl) amino- carbon-1. (i.e...*gasp* it treats like everything!! well.. many things..)

Treatment used: 4 days at suggested dosage (1 tab/ 10gal) followed by 30% waterchanges over the next few days. Filter allowed to keep operating.

Subjects: 5 x 4" P.B and 1 female betta

Observations during treatment:
Clouded water slightly. No noticable change in discus behavior for the first 2 days.
ON Day 3, i noticed that the smallest discus was losing it's orange color. All still eating well.
On Day 4, noticed that all the P.B seemed rather pale. Even all the the pepper on every discus seemed to have disappeared resulting in an extremely clean look. On closer inspection red coloration fadded from the eyes. Smallest discus clamped fines. Discus are rather skittish. Still eating, but not as greedily. Betta's fins are clamped tightly, floating at the corner of the tank.

30% Water changed midway through Day 4, another 30% in the evening so as to gradually reduce medication concentration.

By evening on day 4, slight red color returned to eyes, discus are generally looking better. Betta is still floating with clampped fins and rather lethargic.

On Day 5, 30% w/c in the afternoon. Red pigment in eyes has increased quite a bit. Pepper has returned but much darker and heavier than before (probably due to all the stress). But all discus are eating much better. Betta is swimming around again, but fins still clamped.

From day 5 onwards, condition of all the fish generally improves. Pepper gradually fades over the next few days, some still remain, but they seem cleaner than before the treatment.

Effect on Biofilter: I tested the water on day 4, 5 and 6. Day 4 showed a trace concentration of ammonia, day 5 and 6 showed none. All 3 days had no nitrites. I concluded that 4 days of medication had no permanent effects on the biofilter.

Long term effects of medication: Discus seem to be eating much better after the treatment. Noticed that growth rate of 3 of the discus were greatly increased. Hence it is possible that the the medication had a positive effect on the discus by eliminating parasites that were present.

Reccomendation: I have only used this treatment once, with positive results. But from my observations so far, it seems like a product that works pretty well. I would use the same product should the need arises again. Anybody has any other experiences?

Anyway.. that was my pseudo-review. Comments?

Cheers!

Very well written experience with this product. Need to get all experience with this product here....This board full of intelligent people, we can figure this out!!

Robin

[oodi]

Only positive experience with Parasite Clear here, too. I have to agree with Mat... the only sure way is to have water tested and necropsy done.

Judi
:)

[brewmaster15]

Hi all,
On the ingredients. I have been told that in canada, due to restrictions, Prazi is not allowed...the substitute is the dimethyl phosphonate.

I am very sorry Jeff lost his fish. It really is a tragedy. I do however caution everyone from making a decision based on a post as to the safety of the med. I agree with mat here.

I have to believe that their must have been other factors here, which none of us may ever know. This med has been shown to be safe under most conditions...so whats different here? We will probably not ever know.

One thing I might suggest as a possible...Mat mentioned cloudy water= BACTERIA BLOOM... I agree and this often creates an anaerobic environment..add to it The tablets release CO2(best guess).and the tanks were probably heavily stocked( typical for a discus nut) , add to it Jeff does big water changes..and if done so without aerating , could contain CO2 and the fish may have suffocated from the resulting lack of oxygen.

In walters case..the same if the tank was planted, and air flow minimalized as is typical in many planted tanks, or supplimented with CO2.

I'm just guessing here, and don't expect anyone to take this as what happened....but thats the point I am trying to make..Its easy to draw conclusions based on some observations that seem to make sense.

Again, I am real sorry for both Jeff and jasons Losses. I just want to be sure that everyone keeps Jeffs experiences and observations in the proper perspective..

-al

[GravyTrain]

This time a few tanks did not make it 12 hours and the discus were gasping for air. So again I did a 90% water change. It was 11:00 at night so after the water change I left and set my alarm for 3:00am to come back and check on them. Well you can see what I found.

If it was bacteria bloom there will be oxygen depletion, and fish will be gasping which explains the first scenario. However, after 90% water change, 4 hours is too short a period to deplete enough oxygen to kill all the fish.... How can you explain that? Jeff, are you absolutly sure there was no ammonia/chlorine/chloramine in the replacement water?

[Jeff]

Guys. I really have no idea. I daily do a min of 1 90% water change per day. At times I do 2 90% wcs. I have 2 carbon blocks and a sediment filter before my storage barrel. I changed my carbon filters about 1 week before this happened. It has always removed the chlorine for me. I have never had a problem with it. My water does not have chloramines in it. I have no idea what happened. My only reason for posting was to caution other people who have never used this product to be careful. There are a lot of alternatives out there. I doubt you can convince me to ever try this product again. But if it works for you use it. There is nothing for me to gain or lose if you use or don't use this product. I just wanted to share my experience is all.

[Jeff]

Julie was kind enough to send me this link. http://www.igb-berlin.de/abt5/mitarbeiter/meinelt/index_e.shtml It states that calcium increases the toxic effects of acraflavin. Who knows maybe this is the problem I had with my hard water.

[brewmaster15]

Jeff,
just a thought for you but call your water supplier...see if any pipes broke near you or were being worked on.. When this happens they flush the lines with high concentrations of chems....maybe bad timing on your part...I don't your filtration would remove these had this happened.

-al

[Jeff]

Good idea. That is a possibility.

[allan_mark76]

Jeff the last time we talked you said you contacted the manufacturer. Did JUNGLE LABS ever give you any kind of response or technical help? :confused: The reason why I ask this is whether or not the company would stand by their product and help with the situation or turn their cheek on a customer :argue:.


I wish you the best Bro. If you need any help I'm only a phone call away.

:antlers:

[Wahter]

Hi all,
One thing I might suggest as a possible...Mat mentioned cloudy water= BACTERIA BLOOM... I agree and this often creates an anaerobic environment..add to it The tablets release CO2(best guess).and the tanks were probably heavily stocked( typical for a discus nut) , add to it Jeff does big water changes..and if done so without aerating , could contain CO2 and the fish may have suffocated from the resulting lack of oxygen.

In walters case..the same if the tank was planted, and air flow minimalized as is typical in many planted tanks, or supplimented with CO2.
-al

My tank was bare - not even plants in pots. So it's puzzling. Of course when I treat the fish with the medications separately, they are fine. Perhaps the combination did remove oxygen? Fortunately, I was there to see the fish behaving unusually and the water changes saved my fish.


Walter

[MostlyDiscus]

Hi Jeff,

Its been awhile since your note. I have used Jungle tank buddies and found that the fish stressed. No dead fish though. ph 6.0 temp 84 to 85. Didnt see a big improvement in health either. I was checking for tape worms and gill flukes. I did have some luck with prazi pro though. On the back end of a treatment I stacked salt and formalin and had a pair spawn that night. Fifty percent of the clutch hatched. Microsemens were over 1k. I think the hole in the head comes from vitiman defishency and could be either pathogen infection of the intestines or too soft water. Ed

[namasgt]

somtimes in pets mart or petco i noticed some of their med is over dated, once i used this (bought it from walmart) for my male betta breeder and he died the next morning i think i overdosed though?
im very sorry for your loss:(

[deepblue]

Jeff,


I really feel sorry for you. It's sad that those discus did not make it. They are large pretty discus. I will never buy "Tank Buddies". Thank for you to share your experience with us-Painful though.

[Drewster116]

I've used this stuff a few times and my tank is PH 7.4 Temp 87 and my water is like liquid rock. I desolved the tablets in water before adding it to the tank. and nobody has died. I did get a bad headache from the smell of the meds tho. Also on the back of the box it says to desolve the tablets before adding to the tank if the tank is larger then 40gallons

[dntx5b9]

I am about to treat my 265G tank with the JPC. I actually had a bad experience with JPC when treating my afrcian cichlids. I lost three specieces in the tank completely, but did not effect others at all. The ones I lost were specieces that are very sensitive to water conditions. I have used JPC on my discus tank in the past with no problems.

Anyhow, do you know why it is recommended to dissolve the tablets in the water before adding to the tank for larger tanks? I did not do this when I treated my africans and I started losing the fish after the second dose (this was a 265G tank). I just dropped 26 tablets in the tank. May be that's why I lost the fish?

[GottaBeKiN]

I am about to treat my 265G tank with the JPC. I actually had a bad experience with JPC when treating my afrcian cichlids. I lost three specieces in the tank completely, but did not effect others at all. The ones I lost were specieces that are very sensitive to water conditions. I have used JPC on my discus tank in the past with no problems.

Anyhow, do you know why it is recommended to dissolve the tablets in the water before adding to the tank for larger tanks? I did not do this when I treated my africans and I started losing the fish after the second dose (this was a 265G tank). I just dropped 26 tablets in the tank. May be that's why I lost the fish?

Hi Dntx5b9,

The reason they recommend to dissolve the tablets in a bucket before adding is because of the CO2 gas the tablets release. Maybe that's why you lost some fish, due to overdosing of CO2 gas. By the way, I too used JPC tank buddies with my 15 discus with good results, even at double dose.

[ShinShin]

I couldn't believe my eyes this morning when I went out to the fishroom. I use the pond size tablets, 2 in the 100 gal, and 1.5 in the 75's and 0.5 in the 55's. I treated 2 tanks last night, and went to bed. I have never had a problem with this product. I treat every 6 months. It clouds the water, but that's it. Tank one with 8 domestics was cloudy but fine otherwise. Tank two, containing all my wild discus, 4 Nhamunda Heckels and 7 RSG's all of which I purchased from Oliver Lucanis about 13-14 months ago, was also cloudy with 11 dead fish floating. Absolutely un-f'n-believable. 11 beautiful discus dead. 2 grand down the crapper. I will have to reevaluate using this product. I have used it numerous times without a hitch. I don't know if I'll risk 2 grand worth of fish again, though. I'm still shocked.

Mat

[dntx5b9]

Oh, man ..... I am so sorry to hear that. I wonder what happened. When I lost bunch of my africans, I was so mad and wanted to call the Jungle to figure out what could have caused the death. I never followed up. May be they can shed some light. Again, realy sorry about your loss.

[digthemlows]

That is terrible! I don't think I could/would ever use this product given the folks that have lost discus......sorry for your loss.

[scolley]

I am NOT a long term discus keeper. But as far as I can tell, I have never introduced a pathogen into my discus tanks. I partially attribute that to the fact the every animal I have introduced to my discus tanks - vertebrate and invertebrate - has been subjected to the this product, at the dosages recommended by the manufacturers instructions.

I only dose this (prophetically) in quarantine tanks, and only after the animals first spend at least 1-2 weeks appearing healthy. And I have had few losses after dosing Tank Buddies. The one exception is a 100% loss of corys. So I cannot say it is without risk. Yet my current batch of cories went through this fine. So I must wonder if it has to do with the hardiness of the fish being subjected to the med.

My pH 6.9 to 7.1, GH and KH about 2-3, with temps kept at 82-84.

Not sure what to say except this stuff works very well for me. I'm starting a new batch of fish in quarantine on it next week. And given how healthy they appear now, I expect only the best results.

[April]

wow sorry to hear mat . what a bummer.what a horrid thing to walk in on. i lost two big discus awhile back..when i used maroxy. it melted them instantly. i think the product was old. got it from my wholesaler. ive used maroxy many times..no problem. this time it was within a few minutes. melted skin and melted gills. so maybe old. or who knows.

[Kindredspirit]

I couldn't believe my eyes this morning when I went out to the fishroom. I use the pond size tablets, 2 in the 100 gal, and 1.5 in the 75's and 0.5 in the 55's. I treated 2 tanks last night, and went to bed. I have never had a problem with this product. I treat every 6 months. It clouds the water, but that's it. Tank one with 8 domestics was cloudy but fine otherwise. Tank two, containing all my wild discus, 4 Nhamunda Heckels and 7 RSG's all of which I purchased from Oliver Lucanis about 13-14 months ago, was also cloudy with 11 dead fish floating. Absolutely un-f'n-believable. 11 beautiful discus dead. 2 grand down the crapper. I will have to reevaluate using this product. I have used it numerous times without a hitch. I don't know if I'll risk 2 grand worth of fish again, though. I'm still shocked.

Mat

Mat, I am so sorry to hear this!! I too, have used this product numerous times....with no problems ~

If anyone can find what happened, if it was the water, the med, or what, it will be you ~

Please don't use it again ~

[aquagal]

Mat--

What a terrible story. Like you, I have used this product several times w/ no issues, never cloudy water even. I'm not sure if I'll ever use it again given all the horrifying testimonials on this thread. What on earth is going on w/ this stuff...is it the reformulation I wonder? Maybe quality control w/ Jungle?

[brewmaster15]

Mat,
Thats absolutely Rotten!:(:(:( Sorry to read this.

-al

[dntx5b9]

I have used the same batch for my discus this time that I have used in my African tank a few months ago when I lost a whole bunch of fish. When I lost a whole bunch of fish, I did suspect that may be I had a bad batch, but now I know it wasn't a bad batch. My discus are getting better after the second treatment which was yesterday. I really think it's something with the water that reacted badly with the med. We really need to find out what went wrong, and what we can do to avoid this from happening in the future. Again, really sorry about the loss.

[GottaBeKiN]

I am thinking it might be a quality control problem, where one out of many tab would contain a leathal dose of a certain medicine. Who knows.

[dntx5b9]

I am thinking it might be a quality control problem, where one out of many tab would contain a leathal dose of a certain medicine. Who knows.

True. It does say on the box "DO NOT OVERDOSE." But like you said, who knows ...

[MostlyDiscus]

Matt, I dont think sorry can say enough. If they were nice wild caughts I know its not just the money, its also the time and care as well. I am in the middle of a long cleaning for my central system of which I had metioned to Al that I would publish later. I did start with TBs though (80 tabs) in a 800 gal system and didnt lose one fish. Three treatments within an 7 day period. The fish looked a tad stressed so I added salt at 1 tbls per 5 gal. and things were ok. I feel bad for you.:(

[Apistomaster]

I wouldn't use any med containing Dylox or similar insecticide on discus. It is too dangerous now that we have safer alternaitives. Dylox is best used for fish lice and copepod parasites(anchor worms) very cautiously and preferably on gold fish or koi.
I only use Prazi and flubedazole together and metroniadizole separately.
I know some discus had flukes, nematodes and tapeworms but I've never seen them with a naked eye.
I have never actually seen any worms exit a discus from any orifice. I have detected them or eggs in feces or gill and skin scrapings under a microscope.
Shin,
I'm sorry to here you lost your wilds. Nice wilds are hard and expensive to replace. The Dylox or chlorinated phosphates are too toxic for use on discus, imo, unless you titrate the doses very carefully and watch for any signs of distress. Pond products are rarely as refined as well as smaller packs made for aquarium use. I would never combine them with anything other than perhaps salt.

[Brian Mc]

I agree with you Larry, same reason fluke tabs fell out of favor long ago. They do work great usually but IMO you are rolling the dice and it may just be a matter of time before you have a problem. Sorry to hear about the fish Mat. :(

[dntx5b9]

Hi Larry, are you saying that the Jungle Parasite Clear contains the harmful ingredients you mentioned in your post above? Just trying to clarify and understand. Thanks!

[Apistomaster]

I don't know if Parasite Clear contains any insecticides. I only use PraziPro, Flubendezole 5% powder, metroniadazole, malachite green and salt when needed. If none of those work, then the situation is dire.

Look for any chlorinated orthophosphate or other chlorinated complex chemicals. Most are insecticides.

[ShinShin]

I am still puzzeled by this event. I'm not a rich guy by any stretch of anyone's imagination, so the money was a "hit" I really didn't need. The fish, however, was a sad story even if they were free. Oliver only brought in the best 35 adult RSG's last season (not this past season). I got 7 of those. You all have seen the full bodied blue Heckels on his web page. It's a real shame they had to die like that.

On the other hand, I have never had a problem with this product, and someone mentioned Fluke Tabs. I have used Fluke Tabs on 3 week of discus fry with no ill effects.

Mat

[Apistomaster]

Hi Matt,
I can tell you are still reeling from the losses and are going through the classic stages of grieving. Why oh why?
The insecticides as fish medications have largely been replaced except for the industrial production of non food fish like Koi and Gold fish precisely because there are few reasons to use these substances in aquariums now that many safer alternatives exist. I believe California has banned their sale and use outright. This is something to ponder. Many of the chemicals are known carcinogens or may have teratogenetic side effects, so they are far from being harmless. Besides also just being generally a harsher class of chemicals for fish to cope with even if only as transient exposures.
It is always difficult to figure out why something that has worked before many times has such an adverse effect like your recent experience. There are too many variables to easily determine what really went wrong this time.
All you can do is just go through the pain and start over once you have recovered from the catastrophe. You now have been made acutely aware that there are much safer alternatives to most of the treatable discus diseases and parasites and need not ever go through the same horrible experience. I know these were fish of that $200 up each quality which are extremely difficult to replace even if money was no object and a great deal of work went into making them such healthy specimens.
I have had some fairly recent losses of mated pairs of discus and expensive plecos. Just a month or so back I lost about $1200 of these fish overnight. Before that, I lost a few thousand dollars in just receiving sick and dying fancy plecos. I haven't recovered enough psychologically to begin replacing several species of Hypancistrus. Much like your Discus, some fish you just never invest that kind of money with any expectation of ever having to spend that much again. Let alone on replacements.
Buying and keeping the rarest of the rare is no place for the faint of heart, that's for sure.
So beginners, take heed. These things happen to the most experienced fish keeper/breeders.

[kaceyo]

Hi Larry,
The Parasite Clear that Mat used didn't contain any organophosphates or insectisides that I know of. It's basicly prazi, metro, a small amount of acryflavin and a dewormer. That's why it comes as such a shock when these big die-offs happen when it's used. It's individual ingredients are considered very safe, which makes me wonder if the C02 isn't causing some sort of reaction with the water under certain conditions.

Kacey

[Apistomaster]

I had no idea what the ingredients of Parasite Control were but you should know that no drug or combination of drugs is without the potential for adverse reactions. This has been especially noted with the use of flubendazole. This and all the newer anti-parasite and vermicidal drugs have many reports of anomalous bad reactions. The tendency has been to work with them at the lowest dose possible to avoid crossing that invisible line. Water chemistry, Co2 addition and low dissolved oxygen levels could combine with the drug use and provoke a negative reaction. I give these as only possible factors because neither I or anyone else knows everything.
I start out with half the recommended doses and gradually increase them to known therapeutic levels as a precaution against experiencing adverse effects. These drugs are a vast improvement over copper sulfate and the insecticides that were once in common use.

Not to gross anyone out but once the standard treatment for Syphilis was arsenic until antibiotics were discovered. Yet serious reactions to antibiotics are well known. They remain the state of the art of treating this disease. The treatment of fish disease is still as much an art as it is a science and we are far from understanding everything.

[FishyMatty]

that is really sad. I have used parasite clear in the past for possible fluke problem with no consequence, but at the same time I have slightly softer water. But since I do know that prazi is the best and due to your experience I too will stay away from it.

Is there any chance that the meds were expired?

[Apistomaster]

Praziquantal and flubendazole are both good drugs. Each kills some parasitic worms/flukes the other doesn't. There is no single cure all medicine yet for all the parasites fish carry. The risk of using any medication has to be weighed against the benefits.

Whenever there is reason to believe there are more than one type of parasite is infecting fish, like all wild caught fish, then it can be perfectly reasonable to use metroniadazole for flagellates and prazi/flubendazole for the various flukes.

All these medications were originally developed to treat warm blooded live stock or humans but have been adopted by fish verterinary medicine.

[illumnae]

Digging up an old thread here. I've used Jungle Labs Internal Parasite Guard on wild altums, which are supposedly more sensitive and delicate than discus, with good results. The altums showed no signs of stress and I found a number of thin red worms expelled after the treatments. Internal Parasite Guard is a slightly different product from parasite clear, but it contains metro, prazi and salt. It comes in crystal form and not tablet form (dosage is 1 tsp per 5 gallons of water)

Question is...I just purchased 5 heckels and set up a QT tank for them. This product is the only one in Singapore available with prazi in it...the rest only contain metro (which I'm afraid will be insufficient). Are discus particularly succeptible to this medication (more so than altums), or would i be ok to dose this for the heckels as well?

[back 2 discus biz]

I have used Parasite Clear four times with zero issues or even any signs of stress on eight juveniles. It has resolved the issue every time. I make sure to account for rock and fish displacement when I dose so for my 90 gall I only put in six tabs (60 gall treatment).

I like the prazi/met combo to address external/internal issues at the same time since I have limited diagnosing skills. Another plus is that it's relatively cheap and easy to find. I have never been dissappointed.

Good luck!

[brewmaster15]

I can't tell you that your Heckels will respond fine to the medication. I feel alot has to do with water parameters when adverse reactions occur.. I've never had a problem with this medication in my tanks and my water...

I have used it on all kinds of discus... domestics, wilds and even heckels...

If you have concerns that it may be a problem...best advice...go 1/2 dose first and observe...then up the dose... maintain excellent aeration....watch the pH...if the tank is very soft and acidic... it may either increase absorption of the meds...or possible crash the tanks pH ( I believe its CO2 thats off gassed as the med dissolves)

HTH,
al