Ammonia problems in new tank

[ecrew]

Hi everyone! (sorry this is so long)

I'm new to the Discus world! The following are my current tank specs.

40 gal
1 Penguin Bio Wheel 175 (filter and bio wheel)
1 Top Fin 30 (Carbon)
1 Whisper 40 (Carbon)
2 heaters set at 86
4 Discus (3 are Stendker Discus)
1 pleco
2 corys
1 in substrate with plastic plants

We had this tank setup prior to adding our recent 2 Discus (had only 2 to begin with). We were new to Discus keeping and failed to clean the substrate and do regular water changes. We ended up with a hydrogen sulfide problem! The entire house smelled like rotten eggs. It was awful.
Luckily we had a 30 gal tank setup so we transferred our 2 Discus to it
until we could clear up the problem. It was an interesting learning experience.

Anyway, we changed the filter in the penguin and added new filter bags and new carbon to the Top Fin and Whisper filters. We drained the water down to less than 10% and vacuumed all of the substrate really good. We filled the tank back up. We added Biospira, Prime and a PH reducer (I think).
We had 3 corys and our pleco in the tank while we did all this. Our Nitrites were always 0 and our Nitrates ranged from 5 to 10. Our Ammonia however was a problem. We were doing W/C from our tap and adding prime thinking the Ammonia would go down, but it continued to stay at 8. My husband started adding additional Prime until the Ammonia came down. We thought all was well.

We purchased 2 more Discus and added to the tank. The Ammonia went up a little (.25) which was expected. Our PH by the way is around 6.4. Anyway,
we did a 25% w/c last Tuesday with water from the tap (adding Prime).
This past Sunday, we setup a tank to store water. We added a heater, prime and the PH reducer and let it sit over night. I did a 25% w/c this morning and I just checked the Ammonia. It's at 2.

Do we have too many fish in our tank?
Even though we went the Biospira route, is our tank still cycling and that's why the Ammonia is up?
Should we continue to do 25% water changes every other day to try and keep the Ammonia down?

I had tested the Ammonia before I did the w/c and it was 2. The Ammonia in our storage tank was .25. Like I said, I just checked the Ammonia again (did w/c this am) and the Ammonia is still 2.

My husband is worried that all of these w/c are going to keep our filters from building up the bacteria the tank needs. I'm a little confused. I really don't want our new Discus to get hurt by the Ammonia.

We have 1 Blue Diamond, 1 Pigeon Blood, 1 Blue Snakeskin and 1 unknown.

Thanks for any help with this!

[Howie_W]

Hi ecrew and welcome to the forum! :)

It sounds like your main problem is that the tank is not fully cycled.

Discus need clean stable water parameters, but do not require a low pH value. What is the pH of your water straight from the tap, and what is it after standing for 24 hours? Avoid using chemicals to alter your pH, and I would remove the carbon inserts as well (the hang on the back carbon inserts are best used for removing medications).

While the tank continues to cycle, keep up with daily water changes, 25% or more, and monitor ammonia and nitrates regularly, as you want to get both down to zero. You might also consider adding an additional sponge filter to the tank to help establish a better bacteria colony.

For water changes, many people who use city supplied tap water age it for 24hrs. in a storage container, along with an airstone and a heater...the idea is to perform regular water changes with water that has a stable pH and temperature to match the water already in your tank. If needed, you can still add the Prime to your storage water.

If you search through the stickied sections and look under water changes you'll find plenty of pics posted showing how people set-up their water changes.


HTH


Howie

[ecrew]

Thanks for your reply!

Our PH from the tap is well over 7. My husband uses Discus PH Buffer to reduce the PH to around 6.4 because we understood that Discus do better in lower PH. Why should we remove the carbon? I've read this in numerous places but I don't fully understand why?

Will the tank take longer to cycle doing 25% w/c daily? Is the goal of daily w/c to remove some of the Ammonia and vacuum the substrate? I understood that the bio filters need Ammonia in order to build up the bio load.
Does doing daily w/c make it harder for the bio filters to build up the bio load?

You recommended we add a sponge filter. Is this in addition to the Penguin?
Should we still leave the two carbon based filters on without the carbon? What about a canister filter? Can you use a canister filter with sponges in place of carbon? If so, how to you configure the sponges in the canister filter?

We recently setup a storage tank to hold water for our w/c. We have an air pump on it along with a heater. We have been adding Prime since our tap has Clorine and Ammonia.

Do you only do daily w/c while cycling the tank or when you have water parameter problems? Once the tank is cycled, can we cut back to 50% w/c twice a week? If daily w/c is the key, then do we even need the filtration we have? Our thought process was to have the filtration we have so we don't have to do daily w/c. Is that ok?

The only reason i'm asking these questions knowing a lot of the answers on this site is because I feel like I get conflicting answers sometimes. We aren't interested in breeding or raising fry. We just want to enjoy the fish.

thanks!

[Cosmo]

Thanks for your reply!

Our PH from the tap is well over 7. My husband uses Discus PH Buffer to reduce the PH to around 6.4 because we understood that Discus do better in lower PH. Why should we remove the carbon? I've read this in numerous places but I don't fully understand why?

Will the tank take longer to cycle doing 25% w/c daily? Is the goal of daily w/c to remove some of the Ammonia and vacuum the substrate? I understood that the bio filters need Ammonia in order to build up the bio load.
Does doing daily w/c make it harder for the bio filters to build up the bio load?

You recommended we add a sponge filter. Is this in addition to the Penguin?
Should we still leave the two carbon based filters on without the carbon? What about a canister filter? Can you use a canister filter with sponges in place of carbon? If so, how to you configure the sponges in the canister filter?

We recently setup a storage tank to hold water for our w/c. We have an air pump on it along with a heater. We have been adding Prime since our tap has Clorine and Ammonia.

Do you only do daily w/c while cycling the tank or when you have water parameter problems? Once the tank is cycled, can we cut back to 50% w/c twice a week? If daily w/c is the key, then do we even need the filtration we have? Our thought process was to have the filtration we have so we don't have to do daily w/c. Is that ok?

The only reason i'm asking these questions knowing a lot of the answers on this site is because I feel like I get conflicting answers sometimes. We aren't interested in breeding or raising fry. We just want to enjoy the fish.

thanks!


Hi ecrew, and welcome to Simply (again :) )

Phwew.. a lot of questions, but.. they're good questions and it's important that you care enough to learn the answers. Howie gave you some great advice, but I can understand your confusion so hopefully I won't confuse you more...

- Discus in the natural habitat live in lower ph waters as a rule but most domestically bred discus have never experienced it. I like to keep mine in the low 6's but don't need chemicals to do it. Constant ph is more important than acidic ph unless possibly you're looking to breed. Ph fluctuations are stressful and the use of additives to lower it increases the chances of ph fluctuations.. or even ph crashes if you're not careful. If you're using Discus Buffer by Seachem it's loaded with phosphates.. good for algea only..

- cheap carbons leach phosphates and other things into the water and are bad right off the bat. Good carbon is fine until it's absorbed all the waste products it can, then, it starts releasing them back into the water (but you don't know when that happens :( ). Most people don't change their carbon often enough so the use is counter productive. Water changes are preferred since they remove waste products more predictably. Also, there is some talk that carbon can increase the likelihood of some diseases but I'm not sure of that.

- the goal of the daily water changes in your case is to keep the ammonia down as close to zero as possible until your filters are completely cycled. Ammonia should ALWAYS be zero, as should nitrites. The daily water changes may increase the time it takes the filters to cycle, but only if you're able to remove all the ammonia with each WC, which is unlikely (yes, ammonia is essential to establishing the nitrogen cycle) .. also, it's somewhat the price you pay for starting off w/o the filters fully cycled. Believe me, it's preferable to what happens if you don't do daily WC's until the filters cycle.

- If you're going to have substrate, it needs to be kept as clean as possible
(so as to not add to the waste problems)

-sponge filters are for biological filtration, like the bio wheel on your penguin. Not related to the carbon at all, which is chemical filtration. Most cannisters are setup for bio filtration not chemical (although I occassionally add a bag or two of Chemi Pure in mine).

- Good, healthy bio filtration and a good WC routine are reallly all you need in a Discus tank. Carbon is a poor substitute for a good WC regimen.

Many of us do daily water changes, many do several per week. The fewer the fish, and consequently the smaller the bio load, the more likely you'll have no problem only doing WC's ... 3? .. times per week.

It's good you age your water, you want it to be as close in temp and ph as possible to the tank water when you add it. I always add Prime even though I use mostly RO water.. just in case.

Keep the tank walls and everything in the tank clean... wipe the walls, airhoses, etc to remove the slime and any algea that might try and crop up. Make sure you have more than enough bio capacity for your bio load, don't over feed, do as many water changes as you can.. and you should be ok.

Oh.. and keep your filters CLEAN :)

HOPE that helped .. lol

good luck !

Jim

[Cosmo]

PS.. if you don't have test kits for nitrites and nitrates as well as ammonia, you should pick one up. After the ammonia you have to watch out for a nitrite spike (which the daily WC's will also help guard against).. after that it's nitrates... nitrates aren't as toxic, but Discus are sensitive to them.. another reason for regular water changes (to remove the nitrates (carbon won't)) :)

Once you're fully cycled nitrates should be your only concern so long as you keep the tank and filters clean and do regular water changes.

the end :p

Jim

[Cosmo]

Ok.. I lied.. :D but this will really be the last one :)

right now, with your water being acidic, the ammonia is in a non toxic form. Once the ph goes up to around 7, it becomes instantaeously toxic. Ammonia spikes are deadly.

The prime will help, but... yet another reason the daily water changes are important at least until you're completely cycled.

my fingers hurt.. LOL

Jim

[Howie_W]

Hi ecrew,

Cosmo hit the nail on the head in his last post...daily water changes are important to keep up with until your tank is fully cycled.


The only reason i'm asking these questions knowing a lot of the answers on this site is because I feel like I get conflicting answers sometimes. We aren't interested in breeding or raising fry. We just want to enjoy the fish.

Asking questions is a good thing. :) No reason not to be able to enjoy your fish...that's what it's all about.

Two questions for you:
1. What type of substrate are you using?
2. What type of pleco is in the tank?

Higher pH is not a problem for Discus...keeping it constant is key however. Bottom line, your fish will do well if the water is stable and you keep the inside tanks walls, and all equipment clean.

From your original post, it sounds like you are not maintaining any live plants in your tank correct? For myself, I see no reason to use a substrate unless it's to grow plants in. You may want to consider converting to a barebottom set-up if you are only using a substrate for aesthetics...you can still use the plastic plants, but will end-up with a much cleaner tank.

Frequency of water changes has much to do with the amount you feed, and also your filtration and how large a bioload it can maintain versus the size of your tank and the number of fish inside.

For now I would concentrate on getting the tank fully cycled and then go from there! :)


Howie

[ecrew]

Thanks Howie and Cosmo!

I think our main problem is that we got ahead of ourselves. :o It's easy to do when you see the beautiful Discus in the LFS. We've gone through an interesting learning process. I believe we're beginning to understand all that we need to do. Thanks for all the advice!!

My husband was worried that doing daily w/c would keep the tank from cycling at all. I'm glad you all clarified that concern. We do have the appropriate test kits and have been using them regularly. :) My husband accuses me of being paranoid. If I see the Ammonia go up a little, I get anxious. I'm glad to finally have it confirmed that daily w/c are what we need to do to combat the problem until the filters are fully cycled. My husband and I were having a "small" disagreement on the regularity of the w/c.

Anyway, I have a few more questions if you all don't mind. :)

What makes the PH go up? Cosmo, you mentioned that dropping the PH via the Discus PH Buffer, could possibly cause a PH crash. Could you please explain? Thanks!

I've read that a tank will fully cycle in 4-6 weeks. Is that correct?
If so, I assume this means we should 25% w/c daily until at least 4 weeks?

We have 4 Discus, 2 corys and 1 pleco in a 40 gal tank. Do you think this is too much? We only feed once or twice a day.

You said that we should keep our filters clean. What exactly do you mean? Do you only clean them regularly after your tank is cycled? I've read that you should remove the bio filter and rinse in tank water that's removed during a w/c. I've also read that you stagger your filter cleanings. Is all of this correct? If we were to switch to a canister filter like a Fluval, do you have to clean the filters as regularly as the Penguin bio filter and the sponge filter?

I plan to setup a 90 gal tank in the next couple of months. After reading about cycling a tank, I was thinking of doing the "fishless" cycle. Does this take 4-6 weeks as well? Are daily w/c necessary with this type of cycling?

One more question. ;) I've read that using a canister filter such as a Fluval, can put a strain on the oxygenation in the water. Is this correct? If so, how do you compensate for this? Do you add a Pengiun bio wheel?

I think that's it for now. I'm sure i'll have more questions later.

Liz

[Cosmo]

Hi Liz :)

Paranoia is good :) Over reacting can be bad, so you're doing good :)

The chemistry of a ph crash can be pretty involved and I'm not sure I'm the best one to answer, but I'll try... then I'm off to do my water changes :)

It's not just low ph, or, the Discus Buffer - in fact the Discus Buffer may add what's needed to prevent a crash (?). Acidic water however can be low in buffering capacity, especially if it's soft water. In basic terms, buffering is the waters ability to resist fluctuations in the ph due to environmental reasons.. waste buildup, CO2 buildup, etc., once the buffering capacity of the water is exceeded the ph becomes unstable and starts becoming more and more acidic.. sometimes very rapidly and to dangerous levels. Fortunately, Discus tolerate low ph levels very well, but it is still something to watch out for. If you've been testing regularly (as it sounds like you have been) then this is probably not a concern.

Good gas exchange helps reduce the possibility of a crash (turbulence on the surface via airstones, filter outputs, etc.). The Bio Wheels are supposed to be excellent for gas exchange.

What could make the ph go up? Well, not to argue for the continued use of Discus Buffer, but a sudden switch to your tap water would do the trick :( Since you're using Prime though that shouldn't be a concern as Prime converts ammonia into a non toxic form as well, while leaving it available to the bio filter for conversion. Just thought it was something you should be aware of..

A fishless cycle using clear ammonia takes approx. 6 weeks. Since you already have fish in the tank though your cycle time should be shorter. Howie was kind of easy on you cause I've always heard 50% changes for 2 weeks in situations like yours, but, just keep an eye on the water parameters and you'll know when it's cycled. Some don't believe in it, but I add an agent, such as Seachem Stability to new tanks too to help the colonies grow faster

If your tank is planted, your bio load may be too high. If you have a bare bottom tank you should be fine. If you have gravel, you're probably ok so long as you vacuum it regularly. BB is the best way to go for Discus since you can keep it cleaner much easier. General rule of thumb is 1 fish per 10 gal of water. Depends on the size of the fish as well though.

You're homework on the filters is right on :) except you shouldn't wait until the tank is fully cycled to clean them when you have fish in the tank. Any buildup of uneaten food or feces is not good at any time. The bacteria colonies that live in sponges or other bio media live inside the pores and won't be lost by a gentle rinsing. The bio wheel never needs cleaning so you're good to go there :)

You should put sponge pre-filters on the intakes of all your filters to prevent uneaten food and fish waste from entering the filter. Clean the pre-filters with each water change. How often you need to clean a cannister filter will depend somewhat on whether or not you use a pre-filter. Not sure about Fluval, but Eheim recommends cleaning every 3 to 4 months... way too long a time period... monthly at least (with prefilters), so don't go by the mfg. guidelines, they don't apply to Discus.

For your new tank, you could do a fishless cycle, or, "seed" some sponge filters in your current tank. Seeding takes about 2 weeks, but you run the risk of transferring anything nasty from the old tank into the new. If you're getting new fish for the new tank, best to go fishless.

Don't know about the oxygenation problem, but the output is really the primary concern. If your filters output below the waterline oxygenation will suffer regardless. You want a cannister to output above the water line so the water breaks the surface tension and causes gas exchange. Spraybars are excellent for this as they break the one stream into numerous smaller streams that cause more surface turbulance. You can also add airstones.

I have several acrylic tanks that have nothing but cannisters on them, all output thru spraybars, and I also have large airpumps and airstones on them as well. Never a problem.

phwew.. my brain hurts now :D

Jim

[Howie_W]

Thanks Howie and Cosmo!

I think our main problem is that we got ahead of ourselves. :o It's easy to do when you see the beautiful Discus in the LFS.

Lol...I fell behind quite a few years ago and haven't been able to keep up since...everytime I turn around the number of tanks in the house seem to multiply...http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/crazy/086.gif



I plan to setup a 90 gal tank in the next couple of months. After reading about cycling a tank, I was thinking of doing the "fishless" cycle. Does this take 4-6 weeks as well? Are daily w/c necessary with this type of cycling?

If you are going to be setting up a new tank in the not too distant future it's much easier to start seeding a couple Hydro sponges in your current tank...I usually keep extras running in all tanks...good for placing into a new tank, or also if you need to medicate in a separate hospital tank. In addition, if you use any sort of air pump that has adjustable output you can regulate the O2 in your tank...this also comes in handy for plecos, as they require higher O2 levels.


Howie

[funkyfish]

sounds lik cosmo hit it on the head . when i first started to keep discus i started with a under gravvel filter that was a mistake i started with 3 fish within a week i was down to 2 fish . I did not see the importance of daily w\c's but know that i have had to deal with sick fish i understand and when i finaly got ride of the gravel out of my tanks that is when i seen the light i don't use gravel,carbon or plants of any sort and all the hang on filter's i have are filled with bio balls. my fish have not been sick in a long time .i do daily w\c's of 15% atleast since i have seen the light my fish eat better and growing better IMO. I find it to be alot less work with bb and sponges
just a few thoughs

that buffer u are useing by seachem i bought some back when i first started to lower my ph cause my ph out of tap is8.1 and my water is pretty hard all it did for me is make a mess in the tankhad white stuff all over everything i found that if i wanted too change my water peat moss works better i can deal with the brown stuff better than the white stuff IMO
eather way good luck with ur fish and enjoy

[Cosmo]

Liz,

Yes, it's very easy to get ahead of yourself when you first get bit by the Discus bug... we've all done it at some point. It's great that both you and your hubby got hit with the addiction .. should make for a harmonious marriage :) Only downside is... you'll both always want MORE Discus.. lol

Jim

[ecrew]

Thank you, Cosmo, for all your advice! Thanks to everyone else as well!

I appreciate you all taking the time to answer questions that i'm sure have already been answered in previous threads. It's easier at least for my brain to be able to explain my situation and get advice based on my situation.

funkyfish, we have setup a storage container which we fill straight from the tap and add prime and the Discus buffer to. We've had success so far in keeping the PH stable by using the Discus buffer, on the other hand, I do like adding it to the storage container as opposed to directly to our tank.

I'm into the storage container deal now. I wasn't but i've come to understand the high importance of it as well as the w/c.

A few more questions.... :D

1. If we do have our PH start to go up, do we add the Discus buffer straight to the tank or do a large w/c?
2. I assume the prefilter sponge fits over the piece that extends into the water and sucks the water up into the filter. Is that correct? Just wanted to make sure I understood. :)
3. For my 90 gal tank, can I put a canister filter, penguin bio wheel and a couple of hydro sponges in it and be ok? Is that enough filtration?

I plan on add white rock to the tank. This tank will be the show tank and will be setup in our den. I don't plan on the substrate being more than 1 in deep.

I don't plan on doing a planted tank. I've read a lot about planted tanks and it seems way to complicated for me now. :)

Thanks again for all your advice!
Liz

[ecrew]

Cosmo,

Do you use carbon in your cannister filters? Are your's internal or external?
We plan on using an external one. My husband is convinced that carbon is a necessity. If it's not necessary except for removing meds, then I would like to figure out a way to use an external cannister filter without carbon.
Any ideas?

Thanks!
Liz

[ecrew]

You all are right about getting bit by the Discus bug!! My husband brought home our first Discus and I fell in love! We setup the 40 gal tank and it wasn't long and we setup a 30 gal tank for our den with thoughts of putting Discus in it as well. We've learned a lot while having both tanks. Believe or not, our Discus have made it through all of our mishaps. Apparently they like us and want to stay. :D

I bought a 55 gal tank from a friend who got us into the fish keeping hobby.
I was planning on it being my tank to setup in the den. I wanted 6 Discus,
but then I decided that the tank wasn't deep enough. It was only 12 in.
I wanted a tank that was at least 18 inches deep. So now, I want a 90 gal tank (48X18X24). My husband was like, "What are you going to do with the 55?" All the while, he's thinking he created a monster. LOL!!!!!!

Anyway, we put the 55 gal to good use. It's our storage container for our w/c. :)

[Alight]

I'm not so sure about the lack of cycling, especially since you do have nitrate readings. What is the reading of your tap water, after you've added prime?

Prime can cause false positive ammonia readings on many test kits.

Check it out.

[ecrew]

The Ammonia reading on the storage container after adding Prime is 0.25. I'm not sure about the Nitrates at this time. The Nitrites are always 0 in the storage container and the main tank. Our Nitrates on the tank range between 5 and 10. The Ammonia on the main tank is staying at 2 right now.
I think that daily w/c until the Ammonia is at 0 will take care of the problem.

My husband doesn't understand how you could ever have Ammonia at 0. My understanding is that when the filters are cycled, whatever Ammonia goes in them comes out as Nitrites and then the Nitrites are converted to Nitrates.
Is this correct?

thanks!

[funkyfish]

i have a 75 and i use 2 hydro-5 and thats it works great and cheap to
with daily w\c's the amonia that does get in the tank from the fish will quickly be turned into nitrite and then to nitrateall my tanks read 0 on amonia
ur bio needs to be established first
good luck

[tpl*co]

Are you going to have the 40 and the 90 gallon tank up at the same time or are you going to transfer all your fish from the 40 to the 90? If you are going to transfer them, you can transfer over the filters too and they will be mostly cycled. I agree with all the posts too :). Definitely keep up with those water changes. Your fish are making sure you have a supply of ammonia for the cycle. (Keep feeding us we'll make more :p ).

Speaking of feeding, how often and what types of foods are you feeding your fish? Some foods like brine shrimp and beef heart can cause more ammonia? (help please with more experienced members). Make sure you clean up any uneaten foods and maybe cut back on how much you feed them till the tank is cycled.

[Lola]

Higher pH is not a problem for Discus...keeping it constant is key however. Bottom line, your fish will do well if the water is stable and you keep the inside tanks walls, and all equipment clean.

Now I'm confused, all they ever say here in Chile is that Discus have to be in low ph or they won't survive or won't grow well. Do you mean that as long as i treat my tap water for chlorine and chloramines i can keep my discus in that water with a pH of at least 8.5 and hardness of 25?

[Cosmo]

Lola,

Most fish in the USA are either tank bred by local breeders or imports from Asia. Having said that, I keep all my fish, both wilds and domestics in soft acidic water, but many on the board are very successful with their fish in high ph and even hard water...

Could be the source of the fish. It would reasonable to assume that keeping Wild Discus in a hi ph environment could be a problem since they're used to the acidic waters they're native too.

??

Jim

[Howie_W]

Now I'm confused, all they ever say here in Chile is that Discus have to be in low ph or they won't survive or won't grow well. Do you mean that as long as i treat my tap water for chlorine and chloramines i can keep my discus in that water with a pH of at least 8.5 and hardness of 25?


Yes. Higher concentration of mineral deposits is actually beneficial for growing out juveniles. As for the pH...more alkalinity is fine...many of us keep our Discus in water of 8.0 pH and higher. It's more important to keep the pH constant and not have big shifts, especially sudden lower values.

In many parts of the world, Wild Discus live in highly acidic water...this does not mean that they are unable to exist in less acidic conditions.


Howie

[ecrew]

tpl*co,

I'm not putting the 4 Discus we have in the 40 gal into the 90 gal. I plan on purchasing 6 to go in the 90 gal. I'll be starting from scratch with the 90 gal.
I'm thinking of doing a fishless cycle. Not sure yet.

My husband has done most of the feeding so I'm not positive on everything he has. I believe he feeds brine shrimp, beef heart, flakes and some frozen blood worms (?). Right now, he's only feeding them once a day. We'll continue to do so and continue to do daily w/c until the ammonia is under control.

With my new tank, i'm going to make sure everything is cycled before I add any Discus.

Thanks,
Liz

[Alight]

It is quite likely that the .25 ammonia you have in your conditioning tank is either due to chloramine break-down, or the false postive ammonia test caused by the Prime. The reading of 2, on the other hand, is most likely as all have suggested and due to a not completely cycled tank. If your nitrates are increasing between your water changes, then, you do have a partially cycled tank, and it won't be long before your ammonia level goes to zero, even if you are adding .25 ammonia to your tank from your holding tank (which you probably are not--probably a false positive test). However, some nitrate tests also read the ammonia as if it were nitrate, so this could be the reason for that test as well.

A well established bio-filter will take care of even large amounts of ammonia virtually instantaneously, and you will always read zero ammonia in your tests--trust me, this will happen. Same with nitrites.

I'd be very careful, as some have already suggested, about checking for nitrites, because they are much more toxic than ammonia, especially ammonia in low pH, or bound up by Prime. If you begin to detect nitrites, I'd really get on the water changes.

You said you used Bio-Spira previously--I'm a bit surprised that your tank is not cycled from that. Some batches are bad (have not been kept refrigerated or are too old) so it can happen. However, if your willing to spring for it, I'd put in some more of that. Half now, and half if you begin to detect nitrites.

Ammonia levels of any kind, if maintained for too long, are not good for any fish, and especially Discus.

[funkyfish]

my ph 8.1 gh 20degree's kh 16 degree's my fish grow just fine and happy met me at the top of the tank every feeding

[ecrew]

Thanks, Alight, for the info!

I would have thought the Biospira would have cycled the tank immediately too. But after 24 hours of cycling with the Biospira in, the Ammonia was reading between 1 and 2. But....we were adding Prime as well. Could have been a combination of out-of-date biospira or current biospira and prime that kept giving us an Ammonia reading.

From all i've learned, I think the daily w/c until the Ammonia goes to 0 will be the key.

One question...If Discus do well in PH over 7, and our PH from the tap is over 7, then do we even need to add Discus buffer anymore? If not, how do we acclimate the Discus we have that are in 6.4 PH to over 7 PH?

[Alight]

"1. If we do have our PH start to go up, do we add the Discus buffer straight to the tank or do a large w/c?
2. I assume the prefilter sponge fits over the piece that extends into the water and sucks the water up into the filter. Is that correct? Just wanted to make sure I understood.
3. For my 90 gal tank, can I put a canister filter, penguin bio wheel and a couple of hydro sponges in it and be ok? Is that enough filtration?"


OK, finally went through the whole thread, and I think I see your problem.

First let me answer your questions.

1. pH should not go up. It usally goes down (becomes more acidic) over time. This is normal, and is one of the end results of the nitrogen cycle. If you change 50% of your water at least once a week, this should not be a problem. It will only go from 6.4 to about 6.0 which is no problem for the Discus. If you let the tank go longer, it might be too acidic too fast which is the pH crash you've heard about. If the pH goes up, its because the buffer in your tap water is "fighting" the Discus buffer you have been adding.

You can add the buffer directly to the tank, but dissolve it in some water, and put it in the filter to prevent an acid cloud from decending on your fish.

medium hard to medium soft (but not very soft water) tends towards pH of 7.6 - 8.5, because of the calcium carbonate and magnesium carbonate or sulfate in the water, which buffer it to this pH. Adding acid will reduce the pH quickly, but it will tend to "bounce" back towards the higher pH with time. You have to wait at least 4-6 hours, to overnight after adding acid to really know what the pH will end up as. And the pH will tend to get more acidic once you add it to your tank, as the carbon dioxide your fish put out gets into the water. Carbon dioxide in water is in the form or carbonic acid which is, well, acidic and will make your water slightly more acidic (up to .2 pH points in a well aerated tank).

2. yes, prefilter sponge covers the intake of your filters. I actually use replacement sponges from sponge filters, put more holes in my filter intake, and then the whole prefilter assembly becomes another great sponge filter, that can be moved either one sponge at a time, or the whole thing (depending on the # of fish to be served), to another tank if I need to have an instantly cycled tank.

3. The amount of filtration for the 90 depends more on the number of fish you put in the tank. With a light load, say 6 adult Discus, you should be fine.


Now to your existing problem. You said you replaced the filter media in your filters when you cleaned your tank and added new carbon.

I never, never, nerver replace filter media all at once. This is where your bio-filter is. With a good prefilter on your filters, you may never have to replace your filter media. You may have to rinse it in tank water once very few months, but never throw it out. It's bio gold! If you ever do replace some of it, put the new material in with the old for a few weeks before you throw out the old.

Your old carbon was also full of the good bacteria. It wasn't functioning as carbon anymore, but was full of the bio gold!

So, you very likely killed off your quite nicely functioning bio-filter when you so nicely cleaned your filters and substrate.

Most soft water fish people do not want activated carbon in their tanks. The stuff removes the really essential trace elements that there is not that much of in a soft water tank. In addition, in acid water, things that have been adsorbed can leak out unpredictably and cause sickness in tetras and Discus.

I do use carbon in a brand new tank, to remove the organics from the new plastics and sealers, but never replace it. Once its a month old, its just a nice substrate for the biofilter and has no activity left anyway.

OK, one more possibility. What is the composition of the Discus buffer you are using? It quite possibly has a phosphate component to it. If so, your problems in the old tank may have been partially caused by it. Without frequent changes, it would have built up to high levels. That combined with the nitrates from the fish would have made one great fertilizer. This stuff could have grown tons of algae, or tons of bacteria in your gravel, which when it got high enough in concentration, went anaerobic and made your hydrogen sulfide.

This is one of the reasons alot of Discus keepers have quit trying to keep their water on the acid side. The buffer "bounce" coupled with bad (high phosphate) and expensive buffers just isn't worth it, especially because, as others have said, the Discus don't really need the acid pH.

OK, so what to do.

#1. get some good prefilters on your filters, and DON'T clean them until your tank is cycled (ammonia, nitrites at zero). After that, rinse out your prefilters when you do water changes (twice a week or so) and rinse out your filter media, only when it begins to build up mulm, and then only in tank water, and not too vigorously at first.
#2. just use your tap water--you really don't need to buffer it. Take out the chloramine or chlorine with Amquel or some other agent, and use it.
#3. keep a log of your nitrate increases. Try to keep your nitrates under 10 and at least under 20. This will dictate how often and how much water you have to change. Don't used nitrate reducers, as the nitrate levels are really only indicators of water quality and not the only bad stuff in the water. Nitrate reducers will only get rid of nitrates and not the other bad stuff.

I've noticed that some nitrate test kits read low (my Hagen kit read very low) while my Aquarium Pharmaceuticals kit reads high. My last AP kit read very high (reads 20 while my newer one reads 10, and the Hagen reads 5 or less). I trust the AP kits much more than the Hagen, though.

OK, if you do the above, you will have some very healthy, very happy Discus--well, probably not. You'll want to read about tapeworms, gill flukes and capillaria, too, as these things seem to come with everyones Discus, and eventually will cause a problem in your fish. However, if you have juvenile Discus, (2-4 inches, not including the tail) it may be a few months before they become evident.

Anyway, good luck, and enjoy the fish.

[Carol_Roberts]

Your pH is going up because CO2 is disolved in the fresh tap water. If you put your change water in a storage barrel and "age" (agitate, circulate) it for several hours the pH will stabillize (rise) and equal the pH in the tank. Do not add buffers.

To easily raise the pH simply start doing water changes with aged tap water.In a couple of days your fish will be swimming happily in stabil pH 8.5 water.

[Cosmo]

Beefheart has a tendency to go bad very quickly. If not immediately consumed it should be immediately syphoned out of the tank... also, keep it out of your filters where it will foul as well..

Personally, I would not feed beefheart until the filters are fully cycled..

Jim

[ecrew]

Sorry for getting back to everyone so late! Thanks for all the info!

What is mulm?

I don't know what the composition of the Discus Buffer is. I think it's made by Seachum. I would have to look.

I was hoping we could eliminate the Discus Buffer from the aged water in order to get the PH more stable between the storage tank and the main tank.
We've been doing 25% w/c every day for the past 3 days and the Ammonia = 2, Nitrites = 0, and Nitrates = ?. I think my husband said they were 0. Not sure.

We'll continue with the w/c until we see the Ammonia at 0 and the Nitrates rising. My husband wants to get a Fluval for the tank because he feels that it has better filtration. We're having a water clarity problem which I'm sure is due to the fact that the tank isn't cycled yet.

Anyway, the fish look happy and are eating. I'll be glad when we get this tank cycled.

Thanks for all the advice!

[Carol_Roberts]

I would not get a fluval or any type of canister. I have taken all my canister filters out of service. They are a pain to clean. I prefer aqua clear or airdriven sponge filters.

Mulm in the gunk sucked in the filter - a combination of decomposing feces, uneaten food, etc.

Try it with no discus buffer and see how your fish do. Just do daily water changes with pH stabile tap water - in just a few days they will be swimming in tap

[ecrew]

We're going to try and back off the Discus buffer. Knowing Discus can do fine in above 7 PH is comforting.

Still doing the daily water changes. Ammonia=2, Nitrites=0, and Nitrates=0.
It's kind of frustrating considering we added the a lot of Biospira thinking the tank would be automatically cycled after 24 hours. Our water parameters were very good which is why we added the Discus. I guess the Biospira didn't do as good of a job as we thought.

I'll be getting my 90 gal sometime next week. I won't be able to set it up yet because we're having an entertainment/fish cabinet built in our den to hold the tank and tv etc... I plan on buy the equipment a little at a time until the unit is built. I'm really excited!!!

Thanks to all for your advice!!!!!

[Howie_W]

I'm excited for you as well! :)

I would use the downtime to get several Hydro V sponges seeding in your current tank.

Looking forward to seeing pics of your new fish! :)


Howie

[ecrew]

Howie,

Thanks! Getting the sponges is a good idea!! Didn't think of that. :)

I took a picture of our Blue Snakeskin but I haven't taken one of our two newest
fish yet (Pigeon Blood and Blue Diamond). I need to do that and then figure out how to post them. :)

Liz