activated carbon = bad?

[HallooNYC]

Sup guys! Just had a quick question about activated carbon and the affects it can have on Discus and oscars. I first started my tank as an oscar tank, got them to grow to a nice size then hole in the head hit.. to make a long story shor, the oscars died. so another try with oscars.. a few months later.. same result hole in the head, then death. So now.. since i've always wanted to raise discus, i gave it a shot. a few months later.. guess what.. HOLE in the head, with a nice combination of fin rot =( i was reading a thread here earlier that said something about activated carbon removing minerals in the water that the fish needs. I know that the discus and oscars are very prone to hole in the head. do you guys think that activated carbon is the culprait? The attached picture is what the fin rot looks like. ( the picture was taken from another thread ) but my fin rot is MUCH much worse. I have a 72 gal bow front and do about 15% water change weekly. amonia, nitrite and nitrate is pretty low. any thoughts?

[RyanH]

I'm not sure if it is competely understood what causes hole in the head. I've heard that it is cause by fungus or bacteria and I've also heard that it is caused by a fish being undernourished.

However, I'm not so certain that your hole in the head problem can be directly attributed to the use of carbon. That said, using carbon can bring you an entire host of problems as the impurities that it removes it will dump right back into the tank when it reaches its capacity. When this will happen exactly is unknown and most people leave it in their filters for far too long and then have major problems. My recommendation to you is unless you are trying to remove medications, avoid it and rely on water changes.

Finally, I'm not sure of your bioload or setup, but in most cases the occasional 15% water change is probably insufficient for Discus... especially for a showtank with gravel. This could well be the source of your problems. I would recommend reading through the Beginner and Water section when you get a chance for insight on proper Discus care and the benefits of water changes. And of course, feel free to post anytime with questions. :)

hth!
-Ryan

[HallooNYC]

well.. i have a bare bottom tank and have 4 discus in the tank at the moment. but this hole in the head problem has plauged me for YEARS. Even when i moved houses, the problem still followed me =( i guess the next discus tank i make will be carbon free just to see if thats what causes it.

-Charlie

[RyanH]

Hey Charlie,

Let us know how it works out for you. If losing the carbon solves your problem I'm sure that people here would be very interested to hear about it. In any case, I would get rid of it regardless and increase your water change regiment.

good luck! :)

-Ryan

[ShinShin]

I had a discus develope Lateral Line Erosion some time ago when I thought JW was wrong about activated carbon's relationship to LLR. The fish also developed jagged dorsal and anal fins as you posted. This IS NOT fin rot. All the antibiotics in the world will not help this problem. If you dumped salt in your tank - remove it. It, too, is of no consequence.

I removed the carbon filters, and time cured the problems. As I recall, it may have taken several months for all the fins to regrow and the craters from the erosion to heal over.

Removing the carbon was the only change I made. I would suppliment your food with some vitamins while the fish recovers.

[Carol_Roberts]

So, have you tried dosing the tank with metro? Is it bare bottom or gravel?

[Cosmo]

Bomber.. you stated your ammonia, nitrites, and nitrates are pretty low :confused: Ammonia and nitrates should be zero ... nitrates should be below 5 or as close to zero as possible.

Both your problems could also be related to water quality... a 15% WC weekly probably isn't sufficient to keep the nitrates low.. 15% daily would be better but still might not do the trick. You might try bumping up your WC regimen for awhile and see if that helps.. even 30% 2 or 3 times a week if you don't have the time or resources for daily might yield some good results :)

good luck

Jim

[ShinShin]

Yes, I forgot the water change regime. Thanks Jim for doing so. I agree.

[tlum]

Hi Charlie and other,

I am having the same problems. I use activated carbon to filter all incoming water to remove chlorine. I have two 55g BT growth out tanks of juvs. The spongy filters in these tanks are well cycled. I do about 15% water change every day and 7 days a week, using mainly waste water from my RO to refill. My water is very hard, GH about 16. The TDS reading is about 250. The TDS in my juv growth out tanks is very high, one is about 600 and the other is close to 1000. I don't know why - may be water gets evaporated and minerals remain in the tanks and become more concentrated over time. Anyway, many of my juvs developed minor HITH and some developed fin rot. I tried metro treatment and raised water to 92 degree. No positive result. I also tried Melafix treatment, no positive change. The HITH and fin rot affect only in my juvs, not adults.

I still have no cue on the cause of the problems. It may be a combination of high hardness and use of activated carbon. Maybe, some small carbon particles or even ions leak into the water which adversely affected my discus. Any suggestion will be extremely helpful.

May be we can do a poll/survey to test these four hypotheses:

Hypothesis one: HITH happens more frequently when activated carbon filter is used.

Hypothesis two: HITH happens more frequently in harder water condition.

Hypothesis three: Fin rot happens more frequently when activated carbon filter is used.

Hypothesis four: Fin rot happens more frequently in harder water condition.

If we work together and collect data systematically, we may solve this mystery and develop more insight on the cause and treatment of these two problems.

The data needed to test these hypotheses are:

The general hardness of your water: __________ppm

Do you activated carbon to filter your water? Yes or no

Your subjective assessment of the prevalence of the HITH problem with your discus. The possible answer:

None at all.....Very rare.......Sometimes...........Frequently........A constant struggle


Do you have fin rot problem that cannot be treated by any treatment: Yes or No.

In stead of just complaining and struggling individually, do you think this is a research task that we can take on? Any feedback will be much appreciated.


TerryL

[lesley]

Don't know if it will help, but, suddenly, two months ago two of my fish in a heavily planted tank developed holes in their heads - two small ones in each fish. They are both either alenquars or browns, not sure which, but are a reddish colour, different ages. I had been through a period of rushing home after working long hours and feeding mainly dried food, not the normal diet of dried food, bloodworm and beefheart (three times a week for B/h) that I normally do. Went straight back to the varied diet, did 50% water changes every two days and they have both cleared up over a period of about a month.

I have a total of 17 fish in this tank and only the two reddish fish got this and everyone else remained healthy. They are all back to normal now.

I haven't been keeping a clear record, but I think I may have been slipping a little on the minerals added to the tank as well - I am on rainwater and add calcium chloride, calcium sulphate, epsom salts and bicarb soda to my water.

I am make sure that the water is crystal clear - have never had to use carbon, and try to keep the pH at 7. I ensure that I NEVER have a measurable reading of ammonia or nitrite - keep my nitrate levels under 10.

If my fish look at all unhappy or not exactly what they usually look like - extra stress lines, not coming to the front of the tank, begging for food, etc. I do a minimum 50% water change immediately.

In my limited experience, HITH is not normal, a problem needs to be identified.

HTH

[Rod]

I had a discus develope Lateral Line Erosion some time ago when I thought JW was wrong about activated carbon's relationship to LLR. The fish also developed jagged dorsal and anal fins as you posted. This IS NOT fin rot. All the antibiotics in the world will not help this problem. If you dumped salt in your tank - remove it. It, too, is of no consequence.

I removed the carbon filters, and time cured the problems. As I recall, it may have taken several months for all the fins to regrow and the craters from the erosion to heal over.

Removing the carbon was the only change I made. I would suppliment your food with some vitamins while the fish recovers.

I have had the same experience a long time ago, i was using the carbon in the tank to help improve the water quality and slowly the lateral lines and fins disintergrated. The fish looked to be in perfect health otherwise. I read in a tetra press book about the suspected relationship carbon has to lateral line disease so removed it and the rot stopped. It took a long time but slowly the wounds healed over and the fins regenerated. Now i just use carbon to filter the tapwater and not directly in the tank anymore and never had problems since.

Rod

[Cosmo]

Poll... IMO, poor water conditions are the major culprit.

A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away (15+ yrs ago), I once did 15% or so WC's weekly and had constant battles with both. Since I've learned and gone to daily, or even every other day, WC's.... never have a problem.

Of course, in those old days I used carbon in power filters but changed it weekly, so ... could be part of it as well ?

Jim

[Tony_S]

Of course, in those old days I used carbon in power filters but changed it weekly, so ... could be part of it as well ?

I pretty much concur with Mat and rod...Ive had similar problems waaaay back when. Ive always felt that the problem is the carbon its self, not what the carbon contains or has has filtered out. New or old...makes no nevermind.

Tony

[HallooNYC]

Maybe i should clarify what i meant by amonia/ nitrate/ nitrite being low =) I've had my tank for about 3 years now so i'm pretty sure the tank has cycled properly. I do a water test every week or every other week and the big 3 is non-exsitant. reading the post that all you of guys have made is making me realize that the problem might be the 15% WC and a combination of the carbon. I have 2 canister filters for my 72 gal bare bottom tank, magnum 350 with 2 bio-wheels and a fluval 303. I thought that with only 4 fish in the tank, I'd be able to get away with 15 to 20% WC and have the carbon clean up the rest.

[ShinShin]

Poor water conditions was not a problem in my case. I have always subscribed to Wattley's 40% daily water changes, and have been been very regular about doing them. In fact, usually 40% is the minimum. The fish came from Wattley himself in '96, so I know they were in good condition.

[HallooNYC]

I had a discus develope Lateral Line Erosion some time ago when I thought JW was wrong about activated carbon's relationship to LLR. The fish also developed jagged dorsal and anal fins as you posted. This IS NOT fin rot. All the antibiotics in the world will not help this problem. If you dumped salt in your tank - remove it. It, too, is of no consequence.

I removed the carbon filters, and time cured the problems. As I recall, it may have taken several months for all the fins to regrow and the craters from the erosion to heal over.

Removing the carbon was the only change I made. I would suppliment your food with some vitamins while the fish recovers.

Your post is giving me some hope that my fish will return back to normal. That particual picture isnt my own discus but from some other thread. My fish however is WAYYYY worse than that. bad case of hole in the head WITH a slight case of LLE and REAL bad case of that NON-fin rot. so hopefully, they do heal up ok and return back to normal. I dont care how long it takes..I just want them to get back to normal. Its gotten to a point where looking at them just stresses you instead of realxing you because thier fins are all wasting away and the holes in thier heads make them look a little disturbing. Well, hope removing the activated carbon does the trick.

[Moon]

I also use waste water from my RO in the grow out tanks with no problems at all. I have only sponge filters in my tanks and change water every other day. I do not use Carbon. So the culprit may be Carbon.

[tlum]

Moon, waste water from RO also goes throught the carbon block filter. So, if carbon is the missing link, than waste RO water should also cause the problems.

TerryL

[Moon]

My RO unit is a two stage version with no Carbon block. I am on well water and don't need Carbon. I still think it is Carbon in combination with H2OQ

[simkey]

In my practice the only thing it will help is high quality water.Both sicknes could be a result of not enough clean water,for HITH may be a problem not enough minerals and salt(old water)and also for bacteria growt as result of fin rot sicknes.Carbon if is not old and full of .... it is not a problemJust my opinion from my kepping discus fishes!

[ShinShin]

Poor water quality is not the only catalyst for HTH developement. Malnutrition can also be responsible. Some years ago on another forum many claimed red worms alone could cure HTH attributed to malnutrition.

The fin deterioration noted in the pic is not fin rot. It, too, can be a result of malnutrition. Both these conditions (HTH and fin deterioation) can be brought on by either poor water,activated carbon, or both.

[BGTW]

Take the activated carbon and throw it out the window. Unless you are using it to remove leftover meds in hospital tanks.
If your water is not clear, increase water changes and get yourself a good hydro.
Whyever do you bother with AC, I dunno.
The stuff removes harmful, harmless and essential chemicals as well. Naturally your fish will feel sick.

Bob

[Howie_W]

I pretty much concur with Mat and rod...Ive had similar problems waaaay back when. Ive always felt that the problem is the carbon its self, not what the carbon contains or has has filtered out. New or old...makes no nevermind.

Tony

I've always thought this was the case as well. Everytime I try to drink carbon filtered water I immediately taste the bitterness of the carbon in the water. If it doesn't taste clean to me, why would I subject my fish to it?


Howie

[HallooNYC]

Just and update... after removing the activated carbon.. everything is fine now. No more weird sickness, hole in the head , or the never ending fin rot