Shouldn't wild Discus be left in the Amazon!?

[Dillan]

Taking wild Discus from the Amazon for pets seems wrong to me. I can see the value of wild DNA for breeders but I can't think of any other justification for removing fish from the wild. It makes me feel sad to see beautiful wild Discus confined a bare bottom aquarium. The Amazon is an important and endangered ecosystem and I really think it's wrong and disrespectful for people to take from it. How many die in the process?! Are there so many Discus in the Amazon and its tributaries that this isn't something to worry about!?

[brewmaster15]

Hi,
your concern is legitimate in some respects , but the reality is the Fish are plentiful in areas that are not destroyed by man or mans activities.

If you left all the discus there and did nothing to stop the burning of forests... There would be no discus to save. Thats the real problem...habitat destruction and altered rainy seasons from global weather changes.. aka global warming.

additionally collection of wild fish in the Amazon is a major business... with out which, there is a good chance that many would turn to more destructive ways of life to feed their families, like the black market lumber trade.

JMO,
al

[Dillan]

If collecting and selling wild Discus gives one Amazonian a better way to make a living than mowing down rainforest then that's a pretty good arguement for supporting the trade of wild Discus! My ex-partner had salt water fish which I hated being a party to since I know that most marine fish are collected from coral reefs most often using very destructive harvesting techniques. While that may give the fisherman a livlihood if it's at the expense of sensitive reef environments then it's not right. I personally prefer hybrid to wild Discus -- I like the colours and I like watching them grow up. But thanks for setting my mind at ease about harvesting wild ones.

[Tad]

discusnut_vancouver,
From my perspective for what its worth :D ,

The same can be said of all wild animals, plants, birds, reptile etc, like what is kept in our public zoos, arboretum, and aquariums. IMO being able to see such displays plays an important part in their preservation, and this being through education, knowledge, research and understanding. To the breeder wild discus play an important role in adding back genetic vigor and development of domestic stock and in this case IMO helps preserve the wilds. How?... Originally the only discus available to the public were wilds and with the domesticaton and breeding of these wilds they became the foundation of what we all enjoy in the variety available to our hobby today. This alone has cut back on the harvesting of wild stock as now wilds are more the rarety rather the norm in the hobbyist collections! IMO what is destroyed in the forest and habitat annually in the Amazon alone has a bigger impact upon the wild population then the hobbyist or enthusiast who are in my opinion preservationist who have a love affair with these magnificant fish.

Just my opinion,
Tad

[RyanH]

One other thing to think about IMO is that in 20 or 30 years these fish may no longer even have a wild habitat to live in. Hobbyists may be the only chance for survival of this species if this proves to be true.

[RyanH]

echo.... :D

[Dillan]

One other thing to think about IMO is that in 20 or 30 years these fish may no longer even have a wild habitat to live in. Hobbyists may be the only chance for survival of this species if this proves to be true.
Yikes -- let's hope that doesn't happen! If the Amazon get completely mowed down we're all going to be gasping for oxygen since a lot of what we breath comes from there! Since we all have a particular love of a special Amazon fish, perhaps we should all become more active in protesting the exploitation of the Amazon.

As far as collecting wild fish... you guys have convinced me that this does more good than harm. Thanks for the info.

[Tad]

discusnut_vancouver,
I concur, that the destruction of the Amazon will have world wide impact on all living things if it should continue. The destruction is driven by greed, ignorance and politics which is in direct contrast to why we who keep wild discus do so!

regards,
Tad

[crimson cross]

Discus-nut,
The harvesting of wild discus should not be a concern as compared to harvesting of marine fishes. Your concerns should be directed to the keepers of marine fishes and marine wild life. Just my two fins worth.

[jaydoc]

Ny understanding is that most Wild discus are harvested by hand or in small nets. it is difficult to have a huge impact on the fish population fishing in this manner. This is in stark contrast to the problems we have had with commercial fishing for food fish in our oceans using huge trawlers and drag nets. We still must be responsible in our conservation efforts and not overburden the population.

It is interesting to note that we frequently see debate about collecting wild discus and no debate about many other "common" amazon fish that come only from wild sources. Nearly all tetra species and decorative catfish species are wild caught because they reproduce poorly or not at all in captivity. The advances in Discus husbandry have lessened the impact on the natural habitat.

[Dillan]

I hope wild Discus collectors weren't offended when I questioned the practice of harvesting fish from the Amazon. I just know how sensitive -- and abused -- the region is and I'm just a questioning person I guess. I'm all for any industry where local people can earn a good living without impact. Importing wild Discus actually turns out to be a very "green" business by the sound of it!

[sidra]

This is an interesting thread.

I am an animal-lover in general. As much as I love animals and would have "Noah's Ark on land" if I could, I also hate to see wild animals confined. I don't even keep my horse in a stable. She lives outside in 3 acres and is free to go in and out of her shelter as she pleases.

I really like wilds (don't have any yet) and that was one of my issues. I would like to have some wilds because they are so natural and clearly wild looking. But I felt bad that I would be buying a fish that had been plucked from its natural habitat. And I know that many many fish die before they ever hit the U.S.

I have done a bit of reading on the process of collecting these fish. Often collection and sale of wilds is a family business, even the children help. This is their only way to earn a living. And after reading this thread, I feel a little better about it knowing that it helps prevent the rainforest from being destroyed even faster.

I guess the best thing we can do as discus-keepers is only support reputable importers when we purchase wilds. (Al, I'd still like to find those Tefe's-lol)

There are pros and cons to everything and I think this thread definitely showed a "pro".

Thanks,

Kristen

[wild_heckel]

I also feel that taking discus from the wild is not right. Having to say that I am planning to get some. Selfish perhaps. I think if collection of wild discus is done by hand will probably to some degree help maintain the population in the Amazon. I also feel that they are not enough breeders that breed the original strains, perhaps this is dictated by market demand (with exception to Heckel). I like to get pure brown, heckel or Tefe green and to get them where I live I think I need to get wild discus.
I feel that one day we will have more discus in fish farms and aquariums then in the wild. It is already the fact for some fish now, some even already extinct in the wild. One species of Australian rainbow would have been extinct if not because one man decided to take them (illegally) and breed them. The wild population was wiped out by introduced fish.
Is an interesting topic because on one hand we aquarists remove fish from the wild but on the other hand we also help preserve them.

[jimmyhat]

I hope wild Discus collectors weren't offended when I questioned the practice of harvesting fish from the Amazon. I just know how sensitive -- and abused -- the region is and I'm just a questioning person I guess. I'm all for any industry where local people can earn a good living without impact. Importing wild Discus actually turns out to be a very "green" business by the sound of it!



Nice to see someone local!

:antlers:

[jkeithh1969]

Discus-nut,
The harvesting of wild discus should not be a concern as compared to harvesting of marine fishes. Your concerns should be directed to the keepers of marine fishes and marine wild life. Just my two fins worth.

I just hate when people make generalizations about all saltwater fish keepers.

My opinion is they would do more captive breeding of saltwater fish, then it would become just like discus in the fact that people would be able to buy domestic saltwater just like we now buy domestic discus. And for the record, as a reef keeper as well, I can say that 90% of the stuff in my reef tank was aquacultured including my corals, my clams, my damselfish, and my live rock. Was it more expensive? Yes. Was it worth it? Yes.

Unfortunately the aquacultured saltwater animals are so expensive compared to what is captured. I have seen aquacultured angels that sell for $800 where the wild caught one would cost around $100. If they could ever get the prices comparable to wild caught, then I don't think you would see very many wild caught saltwater animals in aquariums.

Everyone is talking about what is happening to the rainforests, but the reefs are in serious trouble themselves, and not just collecting for the aquarium trade. The main threat is from the pollution we continue to allow to impact the reefs. Someone mentioned that if the rainforest continues to decline then the discus we have in our tanks may be the only ones left. I think the same thing can be said about saltwater fish, corals, etc.

On a positive note, the clam aquaculture community is even being used to repopulate areas where the giant clams are no longer plentiful in nature.

So please do not lump all saltwater keepers in one group. There are some of us that care and try their best to not use wild caught specimens.

[aquakev]

you are right, wild discus should be left in the amazon! Please everyone, ship all your wilds to me and I will take them back...I promise.

[Spices]

...

[Spices]

Sure.. me too.. I'll send back those discus alright... :D they'll all go right into my tanks for sure (as soon as I get another house and more tanks set up).

Preservation and conservation is out the windows and language for many folks on earth. No one seems to miss the bumble bees in New York. Nor do they realize that many plants are not opening, thanks to the mites that are killing the bumble bees and other good pollenating insects.

Anyone saw butterflies lately?

[shaunn]

I didn't notice anyone post what I am about to type in this thread, so here I go:

I read that the harvest of Discus in the Amazon was very, very destructive. I can't find my source, but here is the process in which it is collected.

A tree with roots submerged (where Discus dwell) is surround by a net. The tree is then hacked down, roots removed, and the discus rush into the net. Sounds pretty destructive to me.

[Spices]

I didn't notice anyone post what I am about to type in this thread, so here I go:

I read that the harvest of Discus in the Amazon was very, very destructive. I can't find my source, but here is the process in which it is collected.

A tree with roots submerged (where Discus dwell) is surround by a net. The tree is then hacked down, roots removed, and the discus rush into the net. Sounds pretty destructive to me.

Shaunn,

The rainforest is surrounded by the waters where discus and other precious fish species swim in and thru (the rainforest). What you're seeing in those photos (above) shows the destruction of the rainforest. The destroyers laid out sand and dirt on top of the waters (hence, killing the aquatic species) also destroying the balance of life (destroying the nests of good pollenating insects!). Read up on Brazil Rainforest. I encourage you to learn more about it. It WAS one of life's last source of heart. Now today will be gone tomorrow.
:sad:

[shaunn]

Spices-

I understand those pictures. What I am saying that the specific act of capturing wild Discus is very destructive to the Amazon environment.

"Discus are wild-caught in the Amazon basin at night by using strong light to mesmerize the fish. The area is then encircled with netting and slowly drawn closer, with all obstructions such as wood being removed."
- http://www.mongabay.com/fish/discus.htm

Thats a close description but not exactly what I was originally referring to.

My point- harvesting Discus has its own destructive capabilities. This does not justify the other madness going on in the Amazon, but its a darned if ya do, darned if you don't situation.

[Spices]

Spices-

I understand those pictures. What I am saying that the specific act of capturing wild Discus is very destructive to the Amazon environment.

"Discus are wild-caught in the Amazon basin at night by using strong light to mesmerize the fish. The area is then encircled with netting and slowly drawn closer, with all obstructions such as wood being removed."
- http://www.mongabay.com/fish/discus.htm

Thats a close description but not exactly what I was originally referring to.

My point- harvesting Discus has its own destructive capabilities. This does not justify the other madness going on in the Amazon, but its a darned if ya do, darned if you don't situation.

Here's a reference for you to read thru:

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7907725/?GT1=6542

I see no harm at netting fish in the night. The meaning to conservation and preservation is to learn, breed and respect the species in confinement and out in the wild. Balance is what we're talking about. By completely removing the trees and filling in those basins (rivers) is not the definement of conservation and preservation.

When a fisherman hunts for species in the wild, they're not destroying the basins. They contribute a large part to respecting their environment. No one fisherman wants to see the rainforest destroyed. Only the corpporate slimehogs do. A passage for fuel ships to their plants (or destination) will make them the $$$ they want. If they don't pass thru easily then they will have to pay higher fueling costs just to carry oil from the lower part of SA to their destinations. Sort of like what they've done to Panama Canal (in transporting fuel).

Not only is this barbaric but it will definitely costs all of us in higher produce markets; without the appropriate insects to pollenate trees we won't have fruits and likewise without trees there will be a higher level of pollution, which already is at a high level (currently).

I had to re-read Mongobay article. Not in the least is the netting of fish species harming them. Again it's the removal of stumps and repaving the waterways to complete roadways/streets that are killing our aquatic species.

[shaunn]

That's a sad article.

Anyhoo.... Discus netting isn't bad for the fish, its the process of "obstructions such as wood being removed" which is damaging to the environment (not the fish). Discus aren't open water fish, so dragging a net won't do...

[Spices]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?p=239565#post239565

I've just posted a link to the livescience.com article regarding those viral mites that are making good pollenating bugs inexistence. This is very serious matter.

:sad: :sad: :sad:


Updated reference from Reuters:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/environment_brazil_amazon_dc

[Moon]

Look at what happened to Lake Victoria Chiclids. The introduction of the Nile perch as food fish (which nobody likes to eat because of the oil content) distroyed the endemic chiclid population. Now a dedicated bunch of hobbiests are breeding lake Victoria chiclids for introduction into the lake.
This may happen to discus.

[Spices]

With the drastic water composition changing, the inlets are destroying the species, which means many of them will not at all exist under those conditions. It is much worst than we can ever imagine. We may be the only people to ever keep them in existence and continue to breed them in domestic environments.

I'm honing the skills from this forum from many breeders here in this forum. It won't be such a bad idea to do the same.

If and only if the government in Brazil and in all of S.A. can see the consequences in the planning of reducing the rainforest, then we may have a chance on keeping these species alive as well as us human beings. Without those precious trees and the last (of the greatest) rainforest on the planet, we'll be up to our gills in toxic pollution.


Check out this article:

http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/oct04/bees1004.htm

the latest in viral destructive insects --

[jimmyhat]

I saw this one driving down the road!!! LOL

http://jimmyhat.50megs.com/ <---Click here then jimmytobill2.jpg for the wild discus

[jimmyhat]

I saw this one driving down the road!!! LOL

http://jimmyhat.50megs.com/ <---Click here then jimmytobill2.jpg for the wild discus




we'll be up to our gills in toxic pollution. Its already happening!

[jimmyhat]

lol a fish on a hog/ I am thinking of a trip to the rainforest soon would like to go down and see the jungle see the fish get eaten by a snake.. Just see the rainforest before its gone for good

[Spices]

Ditto. I plan on going soon to see it before it all turns to city lights and tar streets. I don't mind some efferts in preserving the great (and last biggest) rainforest on earth. But taking most of it away seems to be an imbalance.

Money can be made by just retaining it all and preserving it. They can hire folks to do the caring and repairing and preserve those animal and plant species. Profits can be made by doing just that alone. Look how many of us loves pets. They can open up a breeding program while preserving the many species. Also, many of us love orchids.

Just my simply thoughts.
*Angie*

[CeratopsianCanus]

i read that discus are caught by hand at night so I don;t see what is destructive about that specifically, tho I think it is the lesser of evils to take fish out as it at least a little bit, encourages environmental preservation

[dirk50merc]

IMO is moon is right (not for the first time either) the discus population could very well depend on tank breeders at some point. Let's not forget that captive breeding programs have been responsible for saving many wild populations of endangared species.

I feel introducing wild genes into our breed species is important not only for certain characteristics one might desire, but also to keep a deversified gene pool. That and the fact that I really want to see the Heckle discus strip more prominant in hybrids :)

My final opinion on the subject: we can't forget that the discus is still a steady food for alot of locals and collecting them from the amazon certianly has not but a major dent in the over all food source or wild populations, the harvesting of rainforest is the major cuase to the problem, a lack of naturual enviroment.

OH Moon the 210 is finished :) setting it up Friday I'll post a thread

[CeratopsianCanus]

eat discus?
you;re kidding right?
LOL
why on earth would anyone eat a bony old discus, especially when so many tasty BIG fish can be caught to eat.
uggghhh
:)


IMO is moon is right (not for the first time either) the discus population could very well depend on tank breeders at some point. Let's not forget that captive breeding programs have been responsible for saving many wild populations of endangared species.

I feel introducing wild genes into our breed species is important not only for certain characteristics one might desire, but also to keep a deversified gene pool. That and the fact that I really want to see the Heckle discus strip more prominant in hybrids :)

My final opinion on the subject: we can't forget that the discus is still a steady food for alot of locals and collecting them from the amazon certianly has not but a major dent in the over all food source or wild populations, the harvesting of rainforest is the major cuase to the problem, a lack of naturual enviroment.

OH Moon the 210 is finished :) setting it up Friday I'll post a thread

[Spices]

eat discus?
you;re kidding right?
LOL
why on earth would anyone eat a bony old discus, especially when so many tasty BIG fish can be caught to eat.
uggghhh
:)



It's true! There are some rainforest indians that indeed find discus, piranhhas and even some sting rays a hearty meal.

I concur that with today's conventional breeding programs we're able to keep some of the gene pools of discus going. Not sure about how much can we keep the wilds flowing like heckels.

But not only are we discussing fish. There are orchids that are not at all recorded and discovered. There are various tropical plants (besides orchids) too that are being destroyed forever.

*A

[CeratopsianCanus]

I understand that stingrays are a well used food resource, a bit like calamari in texture and taste.Big pirhanna are also eaten and their teeth used as scissors by natives, but the only picture of a native with a discus in his mouth was apparantly a joke on Axlerod that he didn;t get.
It is not like the natives are starving down there, the rainforest provides them with everything they need and they are very discriminating with their food, but in their own way, not ours. We are not thinking nor talking in their cultural terms and we shouldn't try to impose our cultural and idealogical strictures and concepts on what they do and how they think. Our way of thinking is alien to them as is theirs to us.
I know someone who tasted heckel Discus and he told me they taste very disgusting, I have no reason to doubt it. Arapaima tho, the worlds biggest freshwater fish, is very good to eat with lots of meat, and very easy to catch , for them anyway
:)
"we do not inherit the land from our fathers, we borrow it from our children"




It's true! There are some rainforest indians that indeed find discus, piranhhas and even some sting rays a hearty meal.

I concur that with today's conventional breeding programs we're able to keep some of the gene pools of discus going. Not sure about how much can we keep the wilds flowing like heckels.

But not only are we discussing fish. There are orchids that are not at all recorded and discovered. There are various tropical plants (besides orchids) too that are being destroyed forever.

*A

[dirk50merc]

The most precious resource we will loose through deforestation of the amazon is actually plants that have not yet been discovered or realized for their potential medicinal porpuses. There could bem litterally thousands of undiscovered natrual cures that will go undiscovered and become extinct through the current acts of destruction in the rain forest.

Just some bright thoughts to cheer everyone up today LOL

Oh yeh I got to agree the discus would not be my first choice either, but blue gill an incredibly boney fish is darn good eating so the proof is in the pudding or discus in this case.

Food for thought, Dirk