Please advice, this is my first post!!

[chris allsop]

Hi every one, great site.
Im having problems with my fish, i bought two new fish a few weeks ago, the biggest one is breathing a little quicker and it very dark, its a spotted snake.
The other seems ok.
I will post ,my water parems first:
Amm 0
Nitrit 0
Nitrate 40, i was using tap water mixed with ro, im now using pure ro with ph buffer and ro rite, so this will come down as the ro water's nitrate is 5.
Ph 6.5
Gh 4.5
Kh o.50
temp is 90, i was told to raise it was 82, ive changed it again to 85.

Ive changed from plastic plants to real and added diy co2, this was high for a few days as it could not get a test kit from any were, i sorted it now.
This has obviously this has not helped.
Also when i firsted added the new fish the ammonia raised to 0.25, i did a water change and added stress zyme and poly filter. The tests are coming out ok now.

Could the above have a lasting effect on this fish or has he got a disease?

My tank is 48 by 15 by 18, it has a jewel filter and a internal canister filter at the other end of the tank.
The substrate is sand, i have two medium pieces of bog wood and like i mentioned a lot of plants.

Fish list:
7 discus
2 at 3.5 inches
5 smaller say 2inch
3 orange fin tetra
1 hipo cat
2 cories
1 clown loach
2 plecos, one gold nugget one black with white spots, both 2inch.
3 siemise figters, 2 female, 1 male.

the tank is second hand so i have only added the discus and fighters, im thinking of moving the fighter and tetra's to a smaller tank.

I know i have a lot of fish in there but i still live at home and can not have a bigger tank.

Will getting a external filter help?

I was doing 8-9 gallon water change every week, mix of ro and tap. im now going to do at least 5 gallons of pure ro twice a week. Is this ok or do i need more?
Could my dark fish have hexitra or what ever its called?
if so what do i do about it?

Also i do not have a qt tank so i justed added the fish, i will not add any more.

Any help will be great. thanks

[Carol_Roberts]

Your discus are under a lot of stress. You have a 55 gallons tank with sand and plants. This probably leaves less than 45 gallons of actual water in the tank. You are only changing 10% of the water twice a week. This tank contains 7 discus between 2 - 3.5 inches, 3 orange fin tetra, 1 hipo cat, 2 cories, 1 clown loach, 2 plecos, and 3 Siamese figters, 2 female, 1 male.

You need to do much larger daily water changes with that many fish. The 7 discus alone fill the tank.

Your water has nitrAte from the tap? How much from the tap?

I don't believe RO removes nitrAtes. I'm thinking you would be better off doing 25 - 50% daily water changes with warm, aged tap water.

I would NOT try to grow out juvenile discus in a planted, sand-filled, tank. I would not use CO2 on the tank as it causes the pH to fluctuate which stresses the discus.

Extra filtration does not take the place of water changes.

Since only one discus looks ill it is probably poor water conditions rather than a parasite. Medicating the discus may be a waste of money if the underlying stressors are not removed.

[Don_Lee]

OK, first of all the KH is very low, and that could lead to pH swings. I would think a pH of at least 2-3 would be good. Add a bit more of the RO Right, or consider adding a bit of the tap water with the proper anti-chlorine additives.
Eliminate the CO2 until you have everything else sorted out.
More filtration can never hurt, but may not be the answer. Your tank is packed pretty tight, and you will need to do more water changes. Again, I would bring the hardness up a bit.
Are you in the UK? There are sites that can help you with UK related problems, UKDA being one of those. Oxygenation would not hurt, Juwel has a venturi you can add to the filter lines that will get more oxygen to the fish.

Let us know how things are going..........

Don

[chris allsop]

Ro water nitrates come out at 5, i think its aboyut 40 with normal tap water.
PH is stable and has been the same for months, but i know what you mean.
Ive just done some tests since my last post, nitrates has gone down to 20ppm which is a lot better.
I will do another water change tomorrow and add more ro rit to bring up gh, kh.

Should i treat the sick fish or keep doing water changes and see what happens?

Ive just read my tropical fish magazine and its going on about worming tablets, do you guys worm your discus? if so i will get some tomorrow.

[Don_Lee]

Hi Chris,

Don't worry about worming right now, lets sort out these other bits first.
To get KH you may have to do a bit of research, but the easiest way might be to just add a bit of tap water. The RO Right might just add GH, which you seem to be ok on.
Focus on water changes, and I would reduce the temp to 88 degrees or so.
Are your fish eating? If so, what are you feeding?
If there are other symptoms of problems let us know. Are the other fish doing OK?

Don

[Howie_W]

I know i have a lot of fish in there but i still live at home and can not have a bigger tank.

Also i do not have a qt tank so i justed added the fish, i will not add any more.

Any help will be great. thanks

Hi Chris,

Your set-up is one of your biggest problems. As Carol mentioned, your planted set-up is not ideal for raising young Discus, nor is placing them in a community tank. In addition, going out and getting more Discus and adding them without proper quarantine was a mistake.

As Carol and Don stated, I would concentrate on performing daily water changes; straight aged warm tap water. If you want to raise Discus they should become your first priority. If it were me I would remove the other tank mates, and work on stabilizing your water conditions.


Howie

[chris allsop]

They seem to be all eating at the minute, im feeding flake, tetra prima, beefheart, frozen foods, blood worm, brine shimp tropical mix other special discus foods, dapheria (not feed this in a while) etc.

One other thing one of the smaller fish seem to have a "pinched stomach" is this constipation?
Ive heard brine shrimp are good for this, so i will be feeding them iot all day.
A bit like wheetabix treatment right!!.

[chris allsop]

Ive just read the epson salt article, well most of it, some of my dicus do seem to shimmy, have pinched stomachs and appear stressed so this could well be my problem?????
I will get this salt today and add it after a water change.

[Don_Lee]

If you have studied thoroughly and you are convinced that your discus could very well have this constipation issue, then by all means give it a try. However, I would be very careful about rushing into giving any sort of medication or changing conditions if you are uncertain. Be careful.

Don

[chris allsop]

Ive looked in tesco and can not fing the epsom salt, were would the best place to but it be?

Ive added sterazin today to treat for worms, it also treats other conditions and carried out a water change.

You have to add 5 differant applications, does this mean no water changes for 10 days or water change as normal? as it does not say.

Are you sure i should add aged tap water as the readings are as follows:
PH 7.5
Nitrate 40
Gh 10.8
KH 2.8

Plus how do i get aged tap water?
do i just put it in a bucket and add a heater, air stone etc. And leave it for a few days?
Say my tank is 45 gallons,how much should i be changing a day?
As i do work for a living and have a reef tank to, which is a lot easier to keep than discus!!
I do water changes with a gravel pipe with out the hoover bit, and fill back up with a 2 litre jug. how easy is it to use a pump to do water changes to save work/ time?
Do you use the pump to pump the water out the tank as well as in to it? How big is the barrel you guys use? mine are 5 gallons. so i need bigger ones, how do you manage to move the barrels when they are full with water?

Sorry for all the questions!!

Thanks in advance

[Carol_Roberts]

Don't worry about treating worms for now. DAily water changes are more important at this point.

Epsom salt is sold at the grocery store and drug store here. People use it as a foot soak.

You should be changing at least 10 - 15 gallons of water everyday in your heavily stocked tank.

I have 55 gallon plastic storage barrels (originally held greek olives). I use a pond pump to move the water to the tanks.

I use a long hose and drain my tanks out the door or into the bathtub.

Aging the water stabilizes the pH. What is your pH from the tap and the pH in a cup of water that has set on the counter overnight?

[Tiptoptank]

Adding plants and co2 was a bad idea. You need to be highly adapt at keeping a plant tank way before you go and add discus. From what it sounds like you went and bought some plants and then imediatly setup a co2 system. THis is just gunna leave you with an algea problem . IF you want to do a planted tank, take the discus out of the tank and put them in a QT tank. I would suggest leaveing them in there intill they are at least 3 in fish and intill you planted tank is setup ( this will take at least 2 months). Go to any of these great planted tank sites. www.plantedtank.net www.aquaticplantcentral.com. Learn as much as you can. Learn about co2 injection. DIY co2 won't cut it in a 55g tank. I know because I own one. It fluctuates way to much to be effective and co2 swings lead to PH crash and dead fish. This is bad!

Learn about ferts get to know KNO3, iron , Pottasium, Phosphate, and traces. THe site above have all the info you would ever want to know plus more. Your plants wont do there job of keeping down Nitrates unless you keep them happy.

If your fish are sick and you have plants in the tank and you keep dumping salts and meds and all sorts of chems in the tank you plants will die and end up adding to the problem.

If you really want to setup a planted tank for discus you will first need to become a planted tank nut. You will.... need to know alot about plants and water chemistry. If I were to set up anouther planted discus tank I would first grow out a beutifull planted tank to my likeing and wait till I had all the ferts and co2 adjusted perfectly way before I even went to look for discus.

You will need a good light 120watts +
You will need a good co2 source (ie. presureised)
You will need ferts. I would say start with market ferts like kent, the graduate to PPMD
You will need a Phosphate kit, a KH kit, a PH kit, Nitrate kit, amonia kit, and an iron kit, but the iron kit isn't really needed.
You will need to learn the plants that will grow in the high heat of a discus tank.

Anyway... THere is to much to say in one thread so I will just say that its hard but, apsolutly worth you effort and money. PLease PM me with any ?'s you have about any of this.


Here is how my tank runs.
55g
Fluval 304That I made much better with some handmade parts
I run two 200 watt heaters
Corallife 130watt
JBJ regulator with bub counter, I just run the tube into my filter intake
I W/C 50% twice a week useing a python ( I use straight tap water and have had no problem)
I add ferts after every W/C. I add 10ml of pottasium, 10ml of nitrate, 5 ml of phosphate, 15ml of trace, and 5 ml of iron.
Here is what I have created 8) This pic is from a week ago. I have added new riccia to the driftewood and it looks rediculusly awesome

http://www.imagehosting.us/imagehosting/showimg.jpg/?id=392578

This is off topic but, if there is anyone who want riccia for a good price in the CT (fairfield county) area please Pm me. I get about a handfull a week that I just have to throw away.

[chris allsop]

I have 120 watts in the tank, all plants are ment for a discus set up, special order.
I have nutria fin plant fert, i have not added any yet thou. I have all the test kits as well, apart from phosphate, i do have the salt water one.
I dont know what the ph is after water has been left standed but i will try and see.

what fish do you suggest i get ride of?

Can i keep 7 discus on there own in this size tank?

[chris allsop]

Ive just looked at your site carol, there is some good info on there, i will tryt to get a large container, pump hose pip etc, some time this week. thanks for the info. Ive just put out some tap water on the counter, i will test when i get back from.

[Tiptoptank]

I keep a SAE, a cory cat, an otto cat and 2 kullie loaches for clean up and 25 cardnal tetras for looks. But, I only keep 4 discus in my tank
Do you have any pic's of the tank? I would say cover at least 75% of the bottom with plants, and don't start fertilizing with anything for at least a month.

[chris allsop]

i have not got a digi cam but it does look good.

[chris allsop]

Ive just tested the water ive had standing since this morning, the water is 7.5. Thats the same as when it first comes out the tap.

[chris allsop]

Ok i have just been to the garden centre and got a hose and a 30 gallon water storing container. Ive filled it with 10 gallons pure ro and 20 gallons tap.
As mentioned The tap water is:
PH 7.5
Nitrate 40
GH 10.8
KH 4.8

Are you guys sure this will be ok for my fish as i do not want any more problems!!!!!!!!!?????????????

I still need to get a pump, which i will get from my lfs tomorrow after work, what size pump shall i get in gph?

I have a spare heater but im not sure if it is big enough what watts heater do i need for a 30 gallon barrel?

Plus will the barrel be ok with a heater in it, it will not ment will it?


One more thing the discus's skin seems differant than yesterday its quite hard to explain, its like it has an extra layer on top of it if you know what i meen, is this mucus?

thanks chris

[Don_Lee]

The water parameters seem reasonable to me, although I do not know if we want any nitrates at all actually. I am sure some others will offer their opinions on this.
Pump size/gph does not really matter except as it relates to how fast it pumps the water in and out. I would think a pretty small and low rated pump would be fine....
I would just put the heater you have in there, and it will probably at least warm up the water enough to add in. I have never had problems with melting in plastic bins and heaters.
The mucus type layer does not sound good. Read up in the disease/illness area, there might be some photos in those areas to give you some ideas. How long have you had the discus? Where did you get them from?
I am sure that some others will offer some good advice too. I would say DO NOT CHANGE TOO MUCH NOW. Just try one change/treatment at a time and keep a close eye. It is great to see how conscientious you are, it bodes well for the future. For now though, do not try to do too much at once.

Don

[Carol_Roberts]

Any heater from 150 - 250 watt will do. It will not melt the plastic if it is covered by water. Let it lay on the bottom of the barrel.

40 nitrAtres from the tap is really high. I hope someone can advise you how to lower it.

You are seeing slime coat. Fish may be reacting to pH swing or may be getting sick with something like columnaris.

[chris allsop]

its not due to ph swings, as its been the same for months.
The only way i can remember to lower nitrates is to use ro that i was doing in the first place!!
in the barrel i have 25% ro 75% tap, i dont know the readings yet.
will test latter.

shall i still treat for disease or crack on with water chages???

[Carol_Roberts]

Try water changes first. What country are you from?

[raglanroad]

Sorry, but I have to say, everyone has different tapwater conditions, and they vary considerably, so each situation must be gauged.
Chris, you have an RO unit because you know the benefits. There are no bad effects from RO, only good. You can add minerals to get exactly what you want, clean water with any GH you like. Use the same amount of minerals every time, and you have ultra-stable water changes.
You have stated already that your tapwater contains high amounts of nitrates, and in your area likely very high in phosphate.
Do you think that it is good to put this in your tank?
I can think of not one reason why you should put that high nitrate water in your tank.
Tapwater is anything but stable. It shifts from season to season, from weather conditions,river or lake conditions, additives put in there (such as aluminum) by the utility company, pesticides, and weed killers, and organisms etc. Some people, even most , might go years with no problem. Not with your tapwater, though !
You may have a problem with your fish at present. Tapwater may in fact have contributed to the problem in your case. Nitrate poisoning acts through the blood, as the blood becomes unable to carry oxygen . Disease can follow this .
Dave

[Carol_Roberts]

Does RO remove nitrATe?

[NatakuTseng]

I would test the tap water for nitrates first. If you have them coming out of the tap at that levels you know the source. If not then you should do a water change. Nitrates at that level are health risks for any fish. This could very well be the soul source for the problems your having right now. I'm unsure if RO will remove the nitrates, but there's a simple way to find out, just test the RO water. That being said, if you have nitrates that high coming out of your tap thats not healthy for you either. If your doing daily water changes, or even every other day the nitrates shouldn't be getting above 10-20.

[chris allsop]

Yes carol ro does remove nitrate. But not all, tap contains 40 ro has 5 left.

Ive got the pump and every thing, carnt believe it took about 3 minutes to empty 50% of tank and fill it back up!!!!
Thats great!! Its cost me about £100 to set up mind!!
It will be worth it if i finally get results.

On a worse not the discus i mentioned with the sucked in belly looks horrible, it seems like i can almost see though it. I dont think it will last much longer.
Any idea what disease it could be??

im still treating with sterazin, on its second of 5 doses, i hope this helps but im not sure.

Im going to do 2 to 3 50% water changes a week. Instead of using tap only ive decided to use 50, 50 and see what that is.

What else can i do? any ideas??????????????

Until i find out for deffenit what is wrong, apart from water changes and feeding its in the hands of the gods, it just hope they like discus!!

[Howie_W]

Hi Chris,

From your description, it sounds like the presence of nitrate in your water supply is a large problem.

Some fish are more tolerant of nitrate levels than others, and can survive with their presence in low levels. Discus unfortunately are not tolerant of nitrate levels...even the small percentages you decribe can be fatal. Basically mixing R/O with your tap is not helping, as you are still adding nitrates to your tank.

Based upon the area you live in, it's possible you are seeing a rise in nitrates due to your local rainfall. If you live in a farm community, this can also effect the water supply, as does mineral concentrations.

Your goal is to shoot for 0 nitrates. Some of us here use pure R/O in thier Discus tanks, and you may want to consider this. Another option would be to purchase a nitrate reactor to filter your water.

If you haven't already done so, you should contact your local water supplier and talk to them out the presence of nitrates in the public water. I would also speak with any local fish stores nearby to see what their experiences are with your water supply.


Howie

[Tiptoptank]

0 nitrate is good but not needed. I keep my nitates around 10ppm in my planted tank with no problems

[raglanroad]

Chris,
I was going to ask you if the sick fish is the bigger one- to me an indication of poisoning. But looking back at your first post, I see it is the larger one. The faster breathing also indicates ammonia product poisoning, or gill burn from ammonia. You should raise the surface turbulence by a bubbler with no air stone, in a lift tube, to help oxygenate the water. Hope it has not developed into an infection yet, but the ammonia spike was an open door to infection.

I think that TipTop gave good advice against the addition of plant fertilizer, as this will make the problem worse, and you have enough fish to supply some co2 for your plants. Any plant not looking good, remove it. The rest of the plants should help remove unwanted nitrogen products .

It is true that most tanks have some nitrate. But many report visible changes in fish at over 20 parts.

If the skinny fish is eating , can it eat some more?

If you see white fuzz anywhere on the fish, even tiny patches, better to remove the fish immediately.

Most important, forget about putting any tapwater into your tank. But it is a good idea to use the aging process on your RO water too.

Dave

[chris allsop]

No the sick fish is a smaller one, its one of the first i got, from the same shop as the one that died a few weeks ago, i thought that one was a runt, thats why it died but it might have bin due to disease.

Even my my nitrates from the ro unit contain 5 ppm.

[raglanroad]

Chris, 5 parts nitrate is OK.

[chris allsop]

Yes i know, i wish my tank nitrates was 5 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Can any one help with my disease as i dont know what to do.

[raglanroad]

You can do several water changes using your RO water, and the minerals you use to get hardness, just keep it the same each time, and get rid of those nitrates. Number one job. A fifty percent change should bring them down fast, then do another the next day and so on. For myself, I would do a massive water change, as much as possible, while not stressing out the fish by removing them. But I would match the mineral content exactly to the water in the tank. Either way, within a day or 2 , you should have low nitrate. You could even do two 50% changes per day.
As for any disease, keep describing anything you see about the fish, or try to get a digital pic, that would be good. Anyone own a digi cam you know?
To start prescribing medicine without information is not good.
You already tried parasite meds, right? Anything come out of the fish?

[chris allsop]

No nothing has come out of the fish.
The only problem i have is my ro unit only produces about 15 gallons a day, hence its impossible to do a 50% water change daily.

I have a batch of water now thats a mix of tap and ro, that will go in tonight or tomorrow depeding on time then it will be ro only.

IM thinking of getting a small 24 by 12 by 15 tank to put the most dominent discus in as he still chases all the others and beens they are ill, that is not helping them. He seems ok out of all of them. What do you think to that?

[raglanroad]

Chris,
I think you should not put a drop more of tapwater into your tank. It would be better to go without changing water until you get more RO. Changing water has little benefit if it will drive the nitrate up further.

If nothing came out of the fish, then you might want to wait until later to do any more treatments, as medicines usually foul the water, and stress fish.
If the sick fish starts to show some problem such as looking like it is covered in glue, which looks like it peels off, or tiny patches of white fluff, then for sure, another tank to isolate the fish would be great. In fact, another tank is good for future anyway, as a quarantine. Interpret is the brand name for the most highly recommended medicines over there.

You could use the new tank for an extra aging container, meanwhile, so that as one container ages, the other is filling up. Keep the RO running all day and night, and use that water for your water changes. 25% change per day will work fine too, it will just take a little longer to bring the nitrate down.

Oxygen is the most important thing for any animal, so surface waves will help with the nitrate problem by counteracting the nitrate effects of oxygen starvation.

Dave

[chris allsop]

thats what i will do. It is defently a disease as both of the first 2 small fish i got have lost loads of weight and also there head is really thin, i just dont know what disease it is????????????????????????????/

[chris allsop]

some one on another forum described spme symtons of hex and it fitted so i think its hex :argue: .
Ive been told to use interpet no 9 internal bacteria, and octozin together, so thats what ive done, i will keep you posted.

[chris allsop]

Since i losted the two sickiest fish all the others seem fine, my blue diamond still hides but i think thats his position in the tank, ie least dominent.
I have 5 discus in the tank now, i do about to 60% odd water changes twice a week.
Feed them twice a day from a auto feeder, flake and one serving of frozen food, blood work beef etc.

These are the latest readings from the tank:
Amm and nitrie 0
Nitrate 10, due to using pure ro
Ph 6.5
Gh 60ml/l
KH 10 ml/l
Temp at 90.

All the above seem good but how can i raise the kh?
I add ph 6.5 and ro rite from kent to raise gh and ph but i use nothing for kh as i dont know what to use?

[Alight]

If your pH is not changing much between water changes, don't worry about altering kH. (by not much I mean 0.5 pH points or from 6.5 down to 6.0). I suspect your kH is low because you are adding acid to get your pH to 6.5. This almost certainly reduces your kH a bunch.

Given the buffer systems RO right uses, (calcium and magnesium carbonates) you really can't get a decent kH without adding a totally different buffer system. This is because the "sweet spot" (the pH that those buffers "like" to be at) is close to 8.0.

However, if you are changing 60% of your water twice a week or more, this shouldn't be a problem, as you are taking out the acid build up on a regular basis.

It boils down to "you probably don't need to fix what isn't broken".

[chris allsop]

Ive just sold the two plecs and the clown loach as well, so the discus have plenty of room now. I think i have 14 fish including 5 discus.

touch wood they seem ok now as well. :angel: