Water changes and cleaning with and without gravel

[markwill]

I'm started my switch to a bare bottom tank with plants in clay pots. I'm really quite pleased with the initial effect (doing this in stages to allow my filters to pick up when the gravel is gone).

One part of this that has lept out at me is that there are two "partners" who benefit from the ease of cleaning -myself AND my fish. I have placed my auto feeder roughly over the bare area in my tank and it's amazing how clear they keep it. They obviously find the food real easy. So, this has got me thinking...

Right now I tend to do 1 or two straight water changes during the week (about 40%), with no gravel cleaning. I then do at least one "big" clean up at the weekend (same 40% water change but also siphon the gravel, which is where a huge amount of gunk comes up). My filter have no apparent problem handling this regime.

However, this is based on a good bunch of uneaten food being pulled up when I siphon the gravel. I guess the fish simply haven't found that food. It seems to me that - assuming I don't overfeed, which will be obvious with a bare bottom tank - that issue will completely disappear. Aside from the benefit of water changes, I'd essentially only be removing poop and not having to worry about decaying uneaten food.

So, I'm wondering if this would allow me to do less water changes? Essentially there would be just poop around between siphoning - no uneaten food.

I'd welcome your thoughts on if I can expect a lower maintenence approach if I go bare bottom?

Thanks.

Mark

[Willie]

Bingo! You got it. Barebottom tanks are much easier to maintain. Therefore, you can keep the tank just as clean with far less work. Or you can keep the tank much cleaner with the same amount of work.

Its absolutely amazing how many newbies post here about their dream setup. The posts usually start with how long they've kept fish, how much they've learned about raising discus, and then the planted tank with CO2 and HID lighting they're planning. These people simply ignore everything we talk about in terms of barebottom tanks.

Of course, I've been there. We've all been there. After a while, it hits you. Barebottom tanks are so much easier to keep clean. The discus are going to look so much better because the water quality is always good. Its one of those obvious things that you can't accept without bitter experience -- sort of like saving money. :)

Willie

[steven_askham]

A

[markwill]

Its absolutely amazing how many newbies post here about their dream setup. The posts usually start with how long they've kept fish, how much they've learned about raising discus, and then the planted tank with CO2 and HID lighting they're planning. These people simply ignore everything we talk about in terms of barebottom tanks.
I think I'd probably fit into that "bad listener" category :-) But I think there's another important aspect to this. I have seen many people post suggestions to go with bare bottom tanks but these often look really awful (all the plumbing is just "there" - darned ugly). For the "serious hobbyist" or someone who has a fish room this won't be an issue. It's ALL about the fish. But for many of us (and, yes, I did keep discus before, to the extend of seeing them breed), the LOOK of the tank, especially if it's in in living room, is very important. I don't think it's amazing at all that newbies go down this path.

Yes, after a while one steps back and thinks about the effort involved. For me, the effort is absolutely worthwhole (even with a gravel tank) if it helps me avoid the aforementioned ugly look. So, I've been looking for a middle ground and the clay pots approach is possibly that for my tastes. I've reduced my gravel further today and now it forms a kind of "path" across a section of the tank. Clay pots are in the bare sections and it's looking rather nice :-) I will be tinkering over the next week but I think I'll come up with a good compromise.

So, yes, I think the bare bottom tank has its advantage but also think the overall look is every bit as important for many who have "show tanks" in living areas.

Thanks.

Mark

[Dood Lee]

Shalu has a pretty nice planted discus tank. He posts here sometimes, but mostly on the www.plantedtank.net forums.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11359

My tank is almost like his, except smaller (and with less discus :o ). It's actually not that hard to maintain a heavily planted discus tank. It just takes a little more time and effort. BTW, I don't actually really vaccuum my gravel, but my fish seem to do fine? I'm not really sure how it works myself.

[markwill]

Shalu has a pretty nice planted discus tank. He posts here sometimes, but mostly on the www.plantedtank.net forums.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11359

My tank is almost like his, except smaller (and with less discus :o ). It's actually not that hard to maintain a heavily planted discus tank. It just takes a little more time and effort. BTW, I don't actually really vaccuum my gravel, but my fish seem to do fine? I'm not really sure how it works myself.
Yes, Shalu's tank looks wonderful. My wife in particular would be delighted to see such a work of art in my livin room. I think the word "hard" is relatively though. I'm struggling to believe that there isn't a really significant amount of work involved in handling a tank like that, in comparison to a bare bottom tank. I note, for example, that a really attractrive green "grass" bottom layer was removed specifically because it was a good deal of work to maintain.

So, I think it's a balance. Without qualification I'd love a tank like that but have a strong sense that the maintainence goes up considerably compared to what I have in mind with my clay pots approach. There is clearly no competition in terms of which one is more attractive :-)

Mark

[markwill]

What is the impact of a bare bottom (albeit with some features like clay pots, possibly some driftwood, etc) on my albino catfish (I have two). I've had them in the tank pretty much since day one and they just scurry endlesslly across the bottom (their batteries never wear out!!!). I'm assuming I have a problem for them if I go bare bottom, yes? Do I really need to get rid of them or is there more to keep 'em going than meets the eye?

Mark

[Dood Lee]

Just make sure that the catfish can get stuff to eat, and they should be fine. They don't necessarily need any kind of gravel, but if you could find some tiny pots that can hold small plants (like anubias nana or barteri) that could give them some kind of cover it would be good. You could place the pots in a corner somewhere and they can go there to take shelter. Catfish (I'm assuming you have corydoras) usually don't like the light too much. Mine usually come out at night and spend most of the "day" in the shade.

[Willie]

I've kept assorted corys on gravel, sand and barebottom tanks:

C. sterbai
C. adolfi
C. aeneus
C. arcuatus
C. robinneii
C. davidsandii
C. julii

No problems at all for the cories.

Willie

[ppv1951]

willie brings up a good point once again..... why not do BOTH? i like planted tanks too. but, not for the bulk of the discus. i plan to keep my breeders, growouts and fry in BB tanks, in the fishroom. there will also be planted tanks in the frontroom as show-off tanks for the extra nice fish that didn't pair off.

with the gravel cleaners that are out there today (like the python), a couple planted tanks shouldn't be TOO big a problem. but, with plans for 20 plus tanks, you can bet most will be BB.

still the best advice for those new to the fish is to keep that water clean, clean, clean. best way is BB. another consideration is the expense of your lighting. you will need about 3 watts per gallon.....

let us know what you do. good luck!

pat.

[Dood Lee]

It actually depends on the plants. I have a fully planted (well, soon anyway) tank with an amazon sword, some anubias, and some crypts. These are technically low light plants, and you can get away with having 1.5-2 watts per gallon.

[londonloco]

I've kept and bred discus in bb tanks. Def easier. I am currently getting back into the hobby (started last year w/a 120greef) and decided to set up a 72g planted discus tank. Wish me luck! Added flourite and eco-complete yesterday, and what a muddy mess. Today is a better, no mud...just fog..lol....

[shalu]

My experience is contrary to 99% of people here, having done both BB(once and never again) and planted tank. Perhaps because I learned how to do planted tank proplerly first. My experience tells me that with the same amount of water change, I get better water quality in the planted tank, not the other way around. Discus go "crazy" so easily in a BB tank, the margin of error is so small.