Built-in aquarium

[Leetom]

Hi!

I’m looking for advice on setting up a planted Discus show aquarium. The aquarium will be built into a wall unit and I'm new to Discus.

Aquarium specifications:

* 72-gallon tank (48” L x 18” W x 20” H)
* my city water has a high PH (9.2 that stabilizes at approximately 8.5)
* water hardness is 24ppm (could go up to 40ppm)
* alkalinity is 25ppm (could go up to 40ppm)
* 2 heaters totalling 250 watts
* eheim 2026 professional II filter
* 1 large driftwood

I’m looking for advice in the following areas:

* GENERAL

1- Aside from the high PH, is the above adequate for Discus for that size of tank?
2- Are there other factors that need to be considered?

* WATER QUALITY

1- How can the PH be lowered without using chemicals?
2- I understand the use of peat pellets in the filter canister can lower the PH, but it will tint the water. Can peat reduce it sufficiently? Can this tinting be minimized with the use of special lighting or other means?

* LIGHTING

1- How much wattage would this type of aquarium require?
2- Considering it will be a planted aquarium, do you recommend a combination of fluorescent tubes e.g. one promoting plant growth, one appropriate to enhance colour of fish, blue light, and lunar/moon glow?

* TANK POPULATION

1- How many Discus would you recommend for this size of tank?
2- I’m also looking for colourful companions for the Discus. What other fish could I introduce in the tank?
3- Is there a specific type of substrate I should use?
4- What plants would grow in this type of environment e.g. high temperature?

* WALL UNIT SETUP

1- The aquarium will be incorporated/framed in a wall unit. In order to minimize the humidity level within the unit, I will put holes in the unit above the aquarium (the top of the wall unit will be approximately 40” above the top of the tank).

2- Would this aeration be sufficient to eliminate any possible damage to the wood structure?

3- Should I incorporate a small humidifier or fan in the compartment above the tank?

4- Do you know where I could obtain this type of humidifier or fan?

5- Would a lighting fixture with a built-in fan be sufficient?

6- Are there other options?

I look forward to your valued comments and recommendations.

Anxious to move ahead with the aquarium set-up

Leetom

[Carol_Roberts]

Lets start with your water first. You have me confuesd. If your water hardness is 24 ppm that is very soft and I would guess your pH has been artifically increased by the municipal water dept. You will have to be carefull that the pH does not crash.

IF it is GH 24 that is very, very hard and I think you will need to use RO water.

You could put 8 - 12 juveniles and cut back to 6 adults as they grow.

[Leetom]

Carol, yes the PH is artificially maintained high by the municipality; it was raised a couple of years ago from 8.5 to 9.2.

I'm not overly crazy about RO; would there be another solution?

Would the number of Discus kept be adjusted downward with the introduction of tank buddies?

Thanks for your comments!

[Willie]

I think you're headed for a disaster.

You've never done discus. You want to do it in a planted tank. You're not sure about water chemistry. Its going to be very difficult to do regular water changes in a built-in tank. How much tougher can this get?

Willie

[Dood Lee]

I agree with Willie. If you want to go the planted discus tank without any knowledge whatsoever on any of the subjects, you will have a difficult time doing things. I am new to keeping discus, in fact I have had mine for only two months. They are in a planted tank, but I spent almost a full year learning about the ins and outs of keeping a planted tank. If you are dead set on the planted tank, I suggest registering at the www.plantedtank.net forums, and then visiting http://www.rexgrigg.com/. The rex grigg site will give you all the basics about keeping a planted tank. Research all the plants that you want to keep before buying any equipment. There is no sense in buying equipment that you won't fully use. In my experience, keeping the planted tank balanced is much harder than keeping discus. Once you learn how to maintain a planted tank, getting discus will be no problem. You will never have to worry about your water parameters for your discus, because the parameters for keeping a planted tank stable are pretty much ideal for keeping discus.

BTW, canisters are definitely the way to go if you plan on keeping a planted tank. However, your choice of an eheim proII 2026 might not be enough for a 72 gal. tank. I have a 2026 on my 40 gallon, and while it is more than enough to handle my tank, I think 72 gal. is pushing it. Opt for a 2028.

[Leetom]

Hi Willie and Dood Lee!

Willie,

I may be a novice with Discus, but I have successfully maintained smaller planted tropical tanks in the past and I currently have an 800-gallon planted pond. Both of which have given me healthy fries; I must be doing something right.

The aquarium will be located in the living room as the centre piece to the wall unit. Surely, you will agree that incorporating plants will enhance its beauty.

I definitely am not a water chemist, but I do know the characteristics of the municipal water source, as stated in my original message.

I know the importance of making frequent water changes. I have designed the wall unit to give me the same easy access as any conventional aquarium set-up.

I am aware that there will be pitfalls along the way; this is why I joined this Forum: to obtain from its knowledgeable members constructive feedback to identify the pitfalls and to anticipate/remedy them in order to avoid "disasters".

I must admit that I was very surprised to read your strictly negative feedback.

I trust other members will be able to provide constructive feedback/advice.

Dood Lee,

Thank you for recommending the two web sites. I quickly scanned WWW.rexgrigg.com. I found it to be a very good summary of many of the information I'de gathered from various sources. I will certainly explore it in greater depth.

I suppose there will always be some new reading material on the subject, but there comes a time when one has to take the plunge.

Like you did two months ago, I feel I am ready to do this now. I recognize that I still have a lot to learn, but I am hopeful I can achieve my goal through the help of enthousiasts like you and other members of this Forum. My research/reading will not end, but it's time to turn the page.

Thanks again Dood Lee

Leetom

[Dood Lee]

In that case, I guess you can start! Keep in mind that you ought to have your 72 gal set up with the plants about a month before you get your discus. That way, you give the tank time to stabalize. The other advantage to this is that you don't actually need to cycle your tank. Just pour in the substrate, plant the plants, and in about a month or so, your tank should cycle on its own. During this time you will want to do tests on the water to ensure that your nutrients are in balance (see Rex's site for more detailed info).

For a tank that big, you will want to go with a pressurized co2 setup. Less hassle and cheaper in the long run. Also, because the pH of your water seems to fluctuate, the co2 injection will help to keep the pH in the actual tank stable. Discus don't really need the pH to be at a certain "level," they just need it to be stable. For example, my tap water has a pH of around 8. With co2, the water in my tank has a pH of about 6.4. Just be sure to fill the tank with aged water every time you do a water change. Also note my reccomendation of the eheim proII 2028. IMO if will be more effective than the 2026 on your particular tank.

I cannot stress enough the importance of getting a general idea of the kinds of plants you want to keep. It will give you an idea of the kind of lighting equipment you will need. Some people like shalu (a member here and on the plantedtank forums) opt for a "collector" type setup where the plants are selected for aesthetics within the tank. Others try to emulate a "biotope," where in the case of discus, is the amazon river. A guy who goes by magicmagni at the plantedtank forums has this kind of setup.

Here is a pic of shalu's tank and a link to his journal:

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/6849/shalu7ke.jpg

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11359&page=1&pp=15&highlight=shalu+discus

Here is a pic of magicmagni's tank and a link to his journal:

http://img76.imageshack.us/img76/9462/magicmagni6ww.jpg

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=16059&page=1&pp=15&highlight=120+discus

[magicmagni]

Leetom: You can do it!

Although I would have liked to have seen you using at least a 100 gallon if not more. IMO a nice school of Altum Angels would be a better choice for a 72- from a functional and Ascetical point of view. Discus are big fish and do better in groups of at least 4 or more I'd say. That adds up to not as much space and a higher bio load in a 72, especially when you factor in space for the plants and wood and other fish that support a planted tank. I think a 72 gallon with Discus would be a compromise (maybe start with only 3 fish) not to say it won't work though.

Dood brought up some good points about establishing the tank first before the Disus go in. That would be my advice too.

Day 1 set up the tank with as many plants as you can. Fill up with conditioned tap water. Set up lighting. (I'd say keep it around 2.5 to 3WPG) Set up pressurized Co2 to around 50ppm (don't worry because the Discus will not be in there yet) You may also want to familiarize yourself with Tom Barr's EI Dosing Methodology (http://www.barrreport.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=4) . Many of us at SFBAAPS (http://www.sfbaaps.com/) are using this method and it works great. If you decide to use this method you will want to add the appropriate ferts the first day too.

As the days and weeks go on you should start to see some good growth and pearling plants. At this time you can start introducing some herbivores to eat any algae that has come up. I would use 10 or so (they will multiply) Cherry Red shrimp to clean the plants. Also beneficial are the true Siamese Algae eaters- a couple (for eating Black beard Algae) and Otto catfish- 6 to 10 (for brown algae) They will not harass the Discus -when you eventually put them in- although there are always exceptions. Always observe the fish for stress from C02. Usually lethargy and surface breathing. Usually only running Co2 during the day and off at night is the best practice -the PH swing is not a problem. If you think fish are stressed slowly decrease the Co2. If the plants seemed stressed- more algae- no/ less pearling add more. Ultimately though keeping everything that the plants need available at all times will produce the healthiest tank- little algae, high DO values, low organic waster levels and happy fish. Maybe in a month or two when everything seems stable then you can introduce the Discus- Get Adults- not juvies.

Good luck,

Jeff

[Willie]

In an effort to be non-negative, I look forward to enjoying pictures of your built in planted tank with discus in six months.

Willie

[shalu]

You have some steep learning curves ahead, both discus and planted tank. Mastering both at the same time as a beginner is going to be TOUGH. There are many people who are very successful with discus in bare bottom tanks. They have learned how to care for discus. There are also many who have beautiful planted tanks without discus(check plantedtank.net and aquaticplantcentral.com for examples). They paid their dues learning how to do planted tanks the right way. Not too many have the best of both worlds. It requires you to master both. In my opinion, many(not all) "compromised" solutions of planted discus tanks really compromise the health of both: the health of plants and the health of discus.

While I disagree with most who say that juvenile discus(don't know if you plan to start with adults) can't be raised in planted tanks, it is almost impossible not to stunt the fish while you are learning the ropes with both discus and planted tank. If you really want to do it, I would only deal with adult discus in your situation.

[Leetom]

Thanks!

Your comments are very helpful.

I've contacted Rex Grigg directly and he's already provided valuable information. I've also visited plantedtank.net and found it very informative.

Once the wall unit is completed and the aquarium is established, I'll be sure to post pictures. But, Shalu, I'm sure they won't be in the same league as your pictures, yet...... ;)

Leetom

[cowboy steve]

Your ambitious.

I know nothing of plants, but as was mentioned previously it is going to be difficult for you to do water changes on a built in.

Stipulating that I do not know, and I would be grateful if those with such knowledge would correct me, one solution would be to get an A.G.A 72 Bowfront with the built in overflow and run wet/dry.

If you put a quick connect/disconnect between the drain tube and the bulkhead on the bottom of the tank, it may be possible to drain the tank from the bottom, and pump water in from the top.

Just a thought, but I am a wet/dry partisan and tend to think that wet/dry can solve most, if not all of life's problems, and this may not be practicable.

Speaking of which, what are your provisions for water storage?

I'd tackle the water parameter and water change issue prior to worrying about plant types and stocking density, everything else you are doing stems from those issues, and if those are not seen to properly everything you do thereafter will be effected by them, perhaps negatively.

[shalu]

I agree with Steve. Try to plumb in an automatic water change system, your life will be much easier. I am also a fan of wet/dry, love it on my 100gallon.

[cowboy steve]

I agree with Steve. Try to plumb in an automatic water change system, your life will be much easier. I am also a fan of wet/dry, love it on my 100gallon.

Wet/Dry is great, so many options.

I run them on 55's and up.

You never have to ask yourself "do I have enough Bio?"

[magicmagni]

I'd just throw on an eheim 2028 or the like and call it a day. You'll loose less Co2 and besides, filtration on a planted tank it not critical. The tank is the filter. No matter what you use though you'll want good water turnover rate.

[raglanroad]

Leetom,
I think you should look into the idea you had about a fan for sure. An in-line fan is expensive but has the power to make the air move through a long tube. A small simple fan could work, if you had the tank top well sealed, and blow the air straight out.
A dehumidifier , not a humidifier...either way,no, better to get the air out of there.
I encourage you to stay on track with your plans, even if you go the simple way with no co2, no fertilizer. You could try a small selection of plants, and wait for the ones that like your setup to grow. I've had, and seen many a tank with lush growth, and no co2 injection. We had planted tanks before co2 injection was common, though not Amano tanks..
I would suggest you if you were to get altums, check angelfish forum 2 to see the stories of approx 2,000 dead altum, stories from the drip method followed by columnaris. Domestics don't show such a great susceptibility, as they have some immune system resistance to the organisms in our water. They have met them before. There are ways to get around the drip method problems, but better to leave the bag CLOSED, until ready, then just net them out immediately, and splash 'em in the tank. Ammonia lock preparation in the tank beforehand, or put them in a bucket for a little while first with the ammonia lock water. They purge ammonia after transfer, as the blood ammonia levels equal the bag water levels, which are sky high after shipping. the ammonia from the gills in water above 6.5 or so will burn the fishes' gills, maybe eyes.
Then, with the proper introduction, you would do fine.
Peat will lower both GH and pH, and very well, but the small amount of pellets won't do much. You need large amounts of peat, like the german "peat bombs", or do it by hand. Filter out all particles before putting the water in your tank.
And lastly, make a spot big enough to get your arm/shoulder into the area to care for the tank. Like everyone said, water change set-up.
Dave

[kevin k]

Here's my setup, the pics are old but representative

http://www.knudsons.com/FishTanks.htm

This is actually the furnace closet in my basement. When I remodeled the basement, I had an area that couldn't be constructively used so I did this.

It is tough to work on this tank, but once you learn to deal with it, it isn't bad. Additionally, I have found less maintenance is better.

Water changes, YES, 2 a week minimum (Python). But I used to deep vacuum the gravel every week, clean the filter constantly ...

Now I sort of vacuum the gravel and trim the plants monthly, clean the filter maybe twice a year (even less).

These are pressurized CO2, lots of flourescent, Eheim filter with skimmer ...

Onto the area, the cement floor was treated with Thompsons sealer, as was the 2x4 stand. The entire interior drywall etc was painted with Kilz (??) OOHHHH bad stuff to work with, but supposed to be mildew proof.

This closet has a fair amount of airflow, and I go in and out daily, feedings etc. so I haven't had any other problems.

As far as a "newbie" with Discus, Set the tank up and cycle it, add some regular fish. I had Angels and community in this for the first year.
Read everything you can on planted tanks and Discus, they are finicky. But not difficult once you get a routine.
I'm only back into fish 3 or 4 years now, so I was a newbie when I started with Discus., I've lost a few. This gang is going on a over year, lost one, the runt.

And don't be afraid to pay a little more for the right setup, You're spending a lot of money to start, Discus aren't cheap, a few extra bucks on the filter, heaters or ?? up front will pay back quickly.

Feel free to contact me if you have any ??

I'll try and put up some fresh pics.