The trouble with bare bottom tanks?

[markwill]

OK, I finally came around and converted to a bare bottom tank, with plants in pots. Looks fine to me and obviously easier to clean. But...

One thing that is strikingly obvious is a dramatic increase in skittishness of my discus. I finished the conversion (took out the last of the gravel) about 10 days ago. Now, I can't go anywhere near the tank - even slowly - without them going into a crazy panic. If I "peek in" the room they are happily swimming around but if I move towards the tank they go crazy and hide behind my artificial driftwood. A number of times they have hurt themselves (bad gashes, being stunned, etc). Doing something so obvious as a water change results in a hurt fish every time because they are scared silly. It's painful to watch...

Keep in mind that these are the exact same fish that about 3 weeks ago were rushing to the front of the tank and beginnning to eat out my fingers.

If this is the way it will stay - and I have to believe this isn't normal - then the bare bottom tank is certainly not worth it. It might be easier to clean the tank but I have this preference for being to see my fish happily swimming around my tank!

So, what are my options here? Why are they so scared at the slightest movement?

Mark

[cobaltblue]

Hi Mark,

Ive found almost the opposite, so who knows. I have a 90g planted tank which my discus are somewhat skittish, but not too bad. I just started a barebottom 33g in which i have two new discus in, and they are not afraid at all. And the two news fish i have in the bb tank came from a planted tank, so
go figure. Maybe it just will take some time for them to get used t

[cobaltblue]

Hi Mark,

Ive found almost the opposite, so who knows. I have a 90g planted tank which my discus are somewhat skittish, but not too bad. I just started a barebottom 33g in which i have two new discus in, and they are not afraid at all. And the two news fish i have in the bb tank came from a planted tank, so
go figure. Maybe it just will take some time for them to get used to.

[cobaltblue]

sorry about the double reply..my computer was freezing up.... :( :(

[traco]

I find my discus in the 90 gallon with bare bottom are a bit skittish. I never had them in gravel so can't compare. They have settled down a bit but I know there a couple of fish who seem more skittish so is the individuality of the fish. Be interesting to see others' views and personal experience with their fish.

Barb

[markwill]

Thanks. These comments give me some hope :-) It's the potential for real injury that concerns me (plus, of course, my desire to see my fish).

Mark

[Giniel]

Last year I went to a barebottom and my fish were uneasy,not really scared.I found that if I sat in the room long enough they would go about their business. My kitchen table was about 3 foot from the tank. It took about 1 week of me just sitting there and not moving too much for them to get used to me being there. I think they were just really mad at me for rearranging their home. I hope this will help you.
Debbie

[mattb]

You have drastically changed their environment it is not suprising that they are terrified. They were happy to be around you when they new they had hiding places to use if they felt threatened. They now have nothing that they know so will take a bit of time to get used to it. Imagine waking up one day to find your whole house has changed and you live in a glass cube, you'd feel a bit scittish when saw people.

Give them time and they should be ok.

Matt

[KIWI13]

Its normal that they freak out.

I would cover the sides of the tank in order to leave only the front open. This will re-assure them abit. Add in some schooling fish like tetras that will not be effected by the Bare Bottom and will swim aimlessly and this will help calm down the discus.
When they notice no on else freaking out. Add in some more hiding places. Some terracota pots too. give them security. They will come around. Add some melafix in there if they are wounded cause stressed fish can fall ill to all types of secondary infections.

Jas ;)

[Condor]

You could paint the outside bottom of the tank, though maybe that would be a pain with fish in there :) Maybe it would help if you tried to add some additional cover such as plants that don't need gravel (like stem plants)or something.

Adrian

[Willie]

All my tanks are barebottom and only an occasional fish is skittish, never the entire tank. Best solution for skittishness is a large water change.

Willie

[mattb]

All my tanks are barebottom and only an occasional fish is skittish, never the entire tank. Best solution for skittishness is a large water change.

Willie

I think time is the only thing that will help these guys. They have been totally up rooted from their home and are not used to having no where to hide. Hopefully the water quality will be better die to the BB and this may help to make them feel better quicker.

I'd go with the idea of blocking off the side temporarily and ease them into it gently. Also sit beside them more so they get used to you.

Matt

[raglanroad]

anyone compare the color of siblings between BB and planted? since coloration is subject to surrounds, the difference between planted and BB for altums is major.
and I agrree with Debbie, that they get used to it. I approached the tank from a crouch to feed them at the start, so they wouldn't be too scared to eat. Eventually, since they were in a high traffic zone, they got very tame. I would never seclude fish if they are skittish, I would give them more traffic.
On the other hand, these fish are intelligent. They know my routine. I can plop a sponge filter down beside them, no problem. I can siphon all around, no big deal. But if I have a scrubbie for cleaning up in my hand, they go ballistic. A black t-shirt in my hand made them churn the water. They recognize what "should" be there, and what "shouldn't".
Can't wait till I have installed my sand bottom and lush plants. Will never again do BB for anything but hospital or other special purpose tank.
Dave

[Audrey]

Mark,
My discus have never known anything but a bare bottom tank. I have to nudge them to get out of the way when I use my algae scraper!! Now and then something will spook them and they will swim away quickly, but that is normal.

Have they become any less skittish at all? Is the bottom of your tank covered / painted, so that they cannot see movement under the stand?

The worst part of a bare bottom tank in my opinion, is explaining to people who come into my fish room for the first time, WHY it is bare bottom. :(

[Carol_Roberts]

I'd pull out the driftwood so they don't hur themselves on it. Give them somewhere to hide and they will . . .

[Jeckel]

If the bare bottomed tank is on an aquarium stand, the fish will definitely be freaked out by the vast empty space below them. Even if the tank is on a solid surface like a table, they may be bothered by light reflections off the bottom. Many fish are unnerved by light coming from below; that's why dark gravel is recommended for fish that live in low-light habitats (e.g. many tetras and, I suspect, discus). Painting the bottom of the tank, if you haven't already done so, would probably help with both the problems mentioned above. Of course, this is something you can't do once you've got the tank up and running!

[Carol_Roberts]

My tanks set on a piece of styrofoam. The styrofoam is covered with cardboard or a nutral colored cloth. The fish do not freak out from it.

You must remember most discus never see gravel until they get to the pet store or hobbyist's tank. Breeders are hatching and growing out these discus in bare bottom tanks!

[RLJSlick]

Ok I know I'm new here, but I don't see or understand the reason for bare bottom tanks. Can someone tell me, for a newbie? Please! :D

[Carol_Roberts]

Discus grown best and stay healthiest in very clean conditions. you can not keep tanks with substrate, plants and decorations clean no matter how hard you try. Bare bottom you can find every speck of feces and uneaten food to vacume out. also you can wipe down the walls and floor with clean white paper towels. Juveniles grow best if fed frequently with a meaty diet. Frequesnt feeding of meaty foods quickly fouls the water if left in the tank to grow bacteria and rot hidden in the gravel.

[Dood Lee]

Discus grown best and stay healthiest in very clean conditions. you can not keep tanks with substrate, plants and decorations clean no matter how hard you try. Bare bottom you can find every speck of feces and uneaten food to vacume out. also you can wipe down the walls and floor with clean white paper towels. Juveniles grow best if fed frequently with a meaty diet. Frequesnt feeding of meaty foods quickly fouls the water if left in the tank to grow bacteria and rot hidden in the gravel.

I understand what you are trying to say Carol (with regards to debris and such), but how are fish waste and uneaten food detrimental to water quality in a planted tank? I ask because plants essentially rely on nitrates and phosphates as nutrients for survival. Assuming that the plants do their job, there wouldn't be any harmful change to the water parameters (no ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate spikes). Is the problem then the debris left over? Because I always just assumed that the mulm would just sink into the gravel.

[Cosmo]

The mulm, and all other detritus does sink into the gravel, there it rots and releases nitrates and god knows what else. Vacuuming will only remove a very small amount of what the gravel can hold so there will always be yuck buried in the gravel.

With a BB, everything is visible and easy to syphon out. I've found skittishness only occurs when there is nothing under the tank so the Discus can either see thru to the floor ( a metal stand ), or, see reflections of themselves due to the mirror effect if the bottom isn't covered. I have dark wood under my BB's and the fish made the transition from gravel to BB without missing a beat. Some people paint the bottoms and even the sides (my breeder tanks are painted on bottom and 3 sides) in order to stop the mirror effect from freaking their fish out.

I suspect your bottom is a giant mirror, and they're running from themselves

Jim

[Dood Lee]

The mulm, and all other detritus does sink into the gravel, there it rots and releases nitrates and god knows what else. Vacuuming will only remove a very small amount of what the gravel can hold so there will always be yuck buried in the gravel.
Jim

See, that's what I was trying to get at. I have a fully planted tank, and it is almost impossible for me to get all the debris out without messing up my plants. The point I was trying to make, however, was that plants need nitrates and such for food. So if the waste rots and releases ammonia, etc, and the plants eat it up, what exactly is it that causes the water to foul?

[Carol_Roberts]

The mold and bacteria growing on the rotting food. Plants can't use up all the ammonia. . . . unless you have a big tank with lots of plants and one discus. Fish "exhale" ammonia. Food and feces are broken down by bacteria into ammonia. Discus tanks produce way more ammonia than plants can use.

[Dood Lee]

The mold and bacteria growing on the rotting food. Plants can't use up all the ammonia. . . . unless you have a big tank with lots of plants and one discus. Fish "exhale" ammonia. Food and feces are broken down by bacteria into ammonia. Discus tanks produce way more ammonia than plants can use.

That's actually quite true, in that there is a kind of "threshold" limit where plants no longer intake certain nutrients. However, that limit is actually higher than you think. Excess ammonia will eventually be broken down by the bio bacteria into nitrite and nitrate - the latter of which is one of the essential macro nutrients plants need to survive.

I think the main problem with what most people have is that there are only really two ways to go about setting up tanks. Bare bottom is obviously the best choice because of the ease of maintenance. Those who decide to have planted tanks often have problems because they kind of do it "half-a$$ed" for lack of a better term. They either don't have enough plants to handle the nutrient load, or don't understand the actual mechanics of maintaining a balanced system that can be inhabited by discus.

[shalu]

Those who decide to have planted tanks often have problems because they kind of do it "half-a$$ed" for lack of a better term. They either don't have enough plants to handle the nutrient load, or don't understand the actual mechanics of maintaining a balanced system that can be inhabited by discus.
Another issue I often see is that many people with planted tanks do FAR less water changes than bare bottom folks do. That leads to problems much more than any rotting food/poop remaining in the tank. Water change does wonders in a planted tank just as it does in a bare bottom tank.

Also consider the fact that many with planted discus tanks are VERY CASUAL hobbiests who did not spend a lot of money getting quality/healthy/non-stunted fish from reputable sources to begin with. So it often is a lost cause from the beginning, and it is often blamed wrongly on the planted tanks.

Discus keeping involves a learning curve, bare bottom or not. I see almost as many stunted fish in bare bottom tanks on the forum as in planted tanks.