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crazydiscus
10-13-2005, 03:35 AM
Hey guys, I got a pair of koi angels in my 3ft tank now and I wanted to add some discus. Would anyone slap me across the head for that?
Thanks Guys hope to see ur replies soon

Cheers :D

Discusgeo2
10-13-2005, 05:15 AM
If your going to do it make sure both the Discus and Angels are all cleaned personally by you. Sometimes when I have to move tanks or sterilize one I put my fish togethere and it may be for at least 10 days. I know my fish are not carrying anything and all my fish are at least a year old. I haven't brought anything new into my place in over 2 years. The Discus I got from Ryan back in April have still not entered my Hatchery and most likely won't until late 2006. But if you can avoid putting them togethere I would give them completly separate tanks becuase the Angels just eat way faster than the discus and you don't want to short change the Discus on food.

KIWI13
10-13-2005, 05:16 AM
Well I'd slap you on the back and say BRAVO!!!!!!!

I have a pair of angels that are in the same tank with my discus. I have had them for months without any problems and now they breed in the same tank.

have fun with em

jason

Oh I just noticed George's post, he is right about the eating, all you got to do is supervise them and make sure your discus are getting their fair share. Quarantine is essential too. 4 weeks minimum and 6 weeks prefered.

crazydiscus
10-13-2005, 07:08 AM
Thanks guys that was great help! Although I'm in Australia I wanted to get a pair of koi angels and there is no way I can find one so do you think I could import a pair over here? Can anyone help me out with this?

Cheers

Willie
10-13-2005, 07:43 AM
crazydiscus;

I think you're crazy to keep discus and angelfish together. I know people are going to say they do it and nothing has happened -- so far. There are always people who live dangerously and believe that nothing will happen to them.

I have personally lost an entire tank of angelfish and discus, both of whom are healthy to begin with, in 48 hours. There's a reason why so many books warn against doing this. It has more to do with disease transmission between two fairly closely related species, nothing to do with competition for food.

What you do is your business, but you should consider why so many people say that its a bad idea.

Willie

crazydiscus
10-13-2005, 08:18 AM
thanks willie! I might think twice now! :confused:

mench
10-13-2005, 08:52 AM
I totally agree with Willie,been there done that and lost tanks of fish each time I tried it...I know some folks have had angels and discus together and said they get along fine and good for them..My personal experence has cost me lots of fish...if ya want angels,keep them in thier own tank and discus in a seperate tank...or put them together and see what happens...they are your fish

Mench

DiscusCavallero
01-24-2006, 04:11 AM
I say try it and see what happens in my expierience i got some koi angels from discusgeo2, I put them in a community tank with my discus, with plants and drift wood and they all did fine together I also had some checkerboards. They all did fine together just make sure your discus are the more dominant species in the tank, by that i mean make sure your discus are bigger than the angels

susankay1
01-24-2006, 07:25 AM
I recently bought some discus from a member and he threw in a couple of koi angels with the discus. I put them all in the same tank and have seen no ill effects so far. My 2c worth.

Ryan
01-24-2006, 10:19 AM
I'm not sure how angels could be any more dangerous than, say, rams or bristlenose plecos. If the angels are quarantined and cleaned out, there shouldn't be anything for them to pass on to the discus, and vice versa. I would love to see some documentation on it if it were true though. This argument comes up all the time and I've never seen proof, just like the blackworm debate. It just doesn't make sense to me that you could mix some South American fish with discus, but not others.

Ryan

JeffreyRichard
01-24-2006, 11:31 AM
crazydiscus;

I have personally lost an entire tank of angelfish and discus, both of whom are healthy to begin with, in 48 hours. There's a reason why so many books warn against doing this. It has more to do with disease transmission between two fairly closely related species, nothing to do with competition for food.

Willie

Willie, you continually harp on this mystery disease. Beyond your unfortunate experience with a tank of angels and discus, is there other documented/scientific proof? I don't doubt your unfortunate experience, but I question your conclusions ....

Please reference the "many books" which warn against angels with discus ... and who the authors are. I willing to bet that the authors are NOT scientists but hobbiests and breeders giving either opinion or ancidotal evidence ... there is a hugh difference.

Don't take what is written in a book as gospel ... just because it is in print doesn't mean it's correct or absolute.

Barb Newell
01-29-2006, 01:59 AM
I have my orange koi angels with my adult discus in a 125 gal tank... no problems at all with disease or feeding. The angels hang out together and eat the smaller flakes, the discus don't pay attention to them.

Barb

Willie
01-29-2006, 08:36 AM
Willie, you continually harp on this mystery disease. Beyond your unfortunate experience with a tank of angels and discus, is there other documented/scientific proof? I don't doubt your unfortunate experience, but I question your conclusions ....

Please reference the "many books" which warn against angels with discus ... and who the authors are. I willing to bet that the authors are NOT scientists but hobbiests and breeders giving either opinion or ancidotal evidence ... there is a hugh difference.

Don't take what is written in a book as gospel ... just because it is in print doesn't mean it's correct or absolute.

Not sure what else can be said that will convince the hard core. I speak of personal experience -- so I can established that disease transmission can occur. I cite books written by discus breeders. So I try to warn beginners that there are dangers involved.

Can you get away with doing this? Of course. You have been very successful, Jeff. On the other hand, some people can get away with no quarantine. The major difference between you and I is the degree of danger we perceive. You perceive it as low and I perceive it as high. I think we can agree to disagree.

Willie

Dave C
01-29-2006, 12:36 PM
I guess that's why we see so many tanks with nothing but Discus in them... everyone has read of at least one hobbyist with a bad experience with each species of fish. So when John Doe says that his bristlenose plecos developed a "taste for Discus slime" we all strike bristlenose plecos off our list of suitable tankmates for Discus. Another person finds that clown loaches are too aggressive when it comes to feeding for Discus so they're gone too. Otos? Same taste for slime for one guy... out they go. Angels, they carried a mystery disease for another person so they're a no-go. Rams get territorial when they breed so we can't have them. Cardinals become lunch unless they're "raised with very young Discus which then don't think of them as food" so they're ok in limited circumstances. In the end our tanks are bare other then Discus and many miss out on the joy of a more balanced setting to watch their fish grow & thrive. So by all means take the experiences of each person and consider them. But in each case you have to also consider the vast number of other hobbyists that have not had similar problems and have had their Discus thrive with other species. In this case there are literally thousands of Discus/Angel tanks that are very successful. So the choice is yours.

architect1
01-29-2006, 01:09 PM
Vary beautiful post dave. I to agree with dave. I have had good experiance with angels and discus. In fact it was so good I had a pair one angel and one discus. They did vary fine.

If I where you i would try it I don't know witch is better younger or older I did my fist experiance with older and workd well. But cost alot to get the discus at full age. Try a fleet of baby angels there not exspencive and try a fleet of blue dimonds there relitivly cheep and vary beautiful. I love the blue dimonds there about 50% of my discus count.

So try it aleast learn from the experiance that has been brought upon you when you do it. who knows you just might find out how or why they are not good together as so many people say. In the end your fish there billions of fish you can buy your working fully so you loose some in the end. Its a hobby theres good and bad things learn from them and you will be a pro.

my advise I may be 20 but I was told at the age of 18 not to do discus and angels but i did it. I maybe just young or nieve but heck if you loose some well there young its like paying for a month of gas its not the end of the world.

good luck and hope I did not offend anyone.

raymb1234
02-03-2006, 06:33 PM
In almost every book on discus, angelfish are said to carry internal parasitic diseases to which discus are sensitive to. I would prefer to listen to the experts rather than depend on anecdotal eveidence. Later, Ray

Dave C
02-03-2006, 07:01 PM
I guess that makes sense. It would be nice if you could find just one of those books and identify the disease that Angels carry and Discus are sensitive to. Mind you, I've seen fishkeeping books that warn about "new water" that kills fish and suggests saving tank water as it ages for that's what keeps fish alive.

brewmaster15
02-03-2006, 07:21 PM
My personal thoughts and experiences.... I don't like to mix the two... but I have and have had no problems given both were healthy..

I think Jeffs right...I think willies right , I think ryans right, and I think Dave C is right:) and I also think it doesn't matter whether the fish is an angel or a any other species...I think it matters if the fish is healthy to begin with..


Lets say I raise a group of angels from eggs artificial.. can I mix them with discus....absolutely...what disease could they bear? Now lets say I buy a dozen angels at ACme Petshops... could I mix them yes!!! but anything can happen depending on what those fish have been exposed to. maybe nothing...maybe a virus..maybe just a protozoan...

Out here in CT, the LFS complain all the times that they can't keep an angel fish alive from their commercial suppliers...I think that may be a case where mixing them with discus would have an affect like willie experienced.. is it going to happen all the time...no...but its possible maybe more so if viral since they are closely related.


I think if anyone is to mix the two..treat all the discus tank mates exactly as you would the discus with QT and be just as picky about the supplier as you would with the discus. Its what I do and though its no guarantee, it makes sense to do so...or don't bother QT the discus at all.

Currently I am keeping 8 altums with 6 wild browns....looking good so far.Been together a few months now., prior to that these altums were with a group of heckels.


-al

Willie
02-03-2006, 10:27 PM
I disagree, Al. Even when both groups of fish are perfectly healthy, I believe it to be a bad idea. The reason is that fish will get sick in the tank without contagion. We have all had a tank of healthy discus going for a year, then one fish gets sick. So a tank of discus can get sick from airborne or environmental pathogens -- not necessarily from another discus.

My concern rests with angels and discus, because there is cross transmission of disease. For example, most wild caught corys carry gill flukes. Expert cory breeders will tell you to put all wild caughts through formalin treatment to clean them out prior to breeding. But keeping wild caught corys and discus together poses no problem. Gill flukes adapt to one species does not seem to bother the other.

Your comment about altums is interesting, because my conclusions rest solely with P. scalare. In Asia, I have seen many tanks of discus, both hybrid and wild types, kept with altums. I have never seen or heard of a problem keeping these two species together. However, many people have reported problems between discus and scalare.

Willie

aloha_discus
02-03-2006, 11:53 PM
Aloha All, I have had my 2 snowflake discus in with scalares for over 2 years now and have only had one problem. It is when the angels start to breed they are really pugnacious and just down right menaces.

But let me add this, I bred the angels myself and pulled them just after being laid. As far as the snowflakes, 1 was from Heps and the other I raised from just an Inch.

Now as far as me adding any wild angels I think not. I have one large altum in this same tank and he does fine but Ive had him for 5 yrs now.

This is JME. Now I have never tried this with my other discus except for the altums that I have for Jack, They are in a 55 with the discus that I got from Jack last year 3 LSS,1 Blue Diamond x, and a Cobalt. No ill effects as of yet. Only med I used was Potassium Permanganate twice a month for 3 months. Also have cardinals in this same tank with again no problem.

Again JME,
Ike

JeffreyRichard
02-06-2006, 12:05 AM
In almost every book on discus, angelfish are said to carry internal parasitic diseases to which discus are sensitive to. I would prefer to listen to the experts rather than depend on anecdotal eveidence. Later, Ray

Show me ONE book that discusses this issue from a scientific perspective ...

I don't believe there are any ... which means the "books" rely on anecdotal evidence ...

I suggest before you invest intellectual capital on heresay from a book, understand the author and content ... I personally find most books not worth the paper they are printed on ...

JeffreyRichard
02-06-2006, 11:51 AM
I disagree, Al. Even when both groups of fish are perfectly healthy, I believe it to be a bad idea. The reason is that fish will get sick in the tank without contagion. We have all had a tank of healthy discus going for a year, then one fish gets sick. So a tank of discus can get sick from airborne or environmental pathogens -- not necessarily from another discus.

My concern rests with angels and discus, because there is cross transmission of disease. For example, most wild caught corys carry gill flukes. Expert cory breeders will tell you to put all wild caughts through formalin treatment to clean them out prior to breeding. But keeping wild caught corys and discus together poses no problem. Gill flukes adapt to one species does not seem to bother the other.

Your comment about altums is interesting, because my conclusions rest solely with P. scalare. In Asia, I have seen many tanks of discus, both hybrid and wild types, kept with altums. I have never seen or heard of a problem keeping these two species together. However, many people have reported problems between discus and scalare.

Willie

Willie, I don't understand what are you disagreeing about? If you are say that "sick" angelfish can make discus sick ... we all agree with that. But if you still feel that P. Scalare carry an inherent disease vector deadly to discus, this is wrong.

Since the late '80s, a large amount of the commercially bred/hybidized angelfish (P. Scalare) population has been exposed to several epodemics of viral and bacterial infections, highly contageous, which has seemed affected the stock today. Many LFS cannot keep angelfish alive for any length of time ... my theory is that :
1) many angelfish are genetically weak from the cross-breeding, leanding themselves vulnerable to disease and stressful conditions
2) the "plague" diseases are still indemic to many systems, particularly LFS. This could result in the contamination of clean fish introduced to these system, perpetuating the problems
3) Constant mixing contaminated stock with clean stocks ultimately contaminates the clean stock, which has resulted in more bad fish

I agree with you about the ease of cross-contamination between discus and angels. But it is just as easy for a sick discus to contaminate a healthy angel.

Bottom line ... the only way an angelfish is going to make a discus sick is if the angelfish is sick to begin with.

Now, if you want to argue that it is hard to find health/clean angelfish, I'll buy that. As I stated above, many angelfish in LFS are exposed to problems I don't want my angelfish exposed to. You have to descriminate where you obtain your angelfish from.

John_Nicholson
02-06-2006, 01:31 PM
I personally belive that even if the angelfish and the discus are 100% healthy it is normally a bad idea to mix the two. Normally angelfish are much more aggresive at feeding time them what discus are. Personally I like for my discus to be all that they can be. Why would I compromise their development by adding some angels to the mix? Of course my discus tanks are bare bottom tanks that are either for breeding or growouts. If I had a planted discus tank with adult discus only maybe I would feel different. By then why would I have an adult discus that is not breeding? I would either sale it for a display fish or throw it in the flower garden.........LOL.

-john

Willie
02-06-2006, 10:47 PM
Willie, I don't understand what are you disagreeing about? If you are say that "sick" angelfish can make discus sick ... we all agree with that. But if you still feel that P. Scalare carry an inherent disease vector deadly to discus, this is wrong. ... I agree with you about the ease of cross-contamination between discus and angels. But it is just as easy for a sick discus to contaminate a healthy angel.

It's amazing how much we do agree on, Jeff. P. scalare does not carry any inherent disease. It is easy for a sick discus to contaminate a healthy angel. When that angel gets sick, its then easy to contaminate the other discus in the tank. Do fish get sick in their own tank? Mine does.

Willie

Dave C
02-06-2006, 11:29 PM
If I had a planted discus tank with adult discus only maybe I would feel different. By then why would I have an adult discus that is not breeding? I would either sale it for a display fish or throw it in the flower garden.........LOL.

I assume you're just joking John, but if you had a planted Discus tank breeding wouldn't really be the focus of the tank. Actually having Discus breed in a planted tank can be a royal pain. Some people use planted Discus tanks as resting spots for breeders.

JeffreyRichard
02-07-2006, 10:20 AM
It's amazing how much we do agree on, Jeff. P. scalare does not carry any inherent disease. It is easy for a sick discus to contaminate a healthy angel. When that angel gets sick, its then easy to contaminate the other discus in the tank. Do fish get sick in their own tank? Mine does.

Willie

So we are in agreement that SICK angels are NO, but HEALTHY angels are OK?