HOW TO BREED AND RAISE DISCUS

[american breeder]

Now im going to go real slow

and i hope the mods can keep the slugs from sucking juice

it will be in a three part series

this is taken directly from my writings which are in the process of editing and collating for future
printing

1. DISCUS ENVIROMENT BIOTOPE

There seems to be much confusion about enviormental factors for which discus can properly be kept/ One person says low Ph another PH doesnt matter another chimes in something else. Its really a mess for the hobbyists. This is traditional in the discus hobby to keep the hobbyists in the dark as much as possible and still sell fish.

I have already delivered the article on how to raise discus artifically and for the few who are useing the article i see some are doing very well.
Rod within 3 months of constant practice u will see that this is much better
than parentally raised..2inch fish in 6 weeks Rod, thats your goal

each breeder has their own methods etc..

here is what i recommend

1. GET A WATER SOFTNER
soft water is the most critical aspect of proper water for fish

DISCUS DO NOT DO ALL THAT WELL IN HARD WATER

PH is most healthy about 7, and for breeding 6.5 is best
but if water is soft PH becomes much less a factor.

water softners are ideal because they dont waste water and large volumes of water can be made from them..the salt they add to the water is no big deal at all.

soft water..thats the key

i will cont when i can

[Jason]

welcome back Marc,

will soft tap water or a softner that uses greensand work the same?

[Condor]

Why is soft water so important? Does hard water have effects on fish (as in lifespan, health, etc.)?

[cobaltblue]

hard water makes it so the sperm cannot penetrate the eggs, therefore they
do not get fertilized and turn white.

[cobaltblue]

Marc, can the water be too soft, as my water is very soft, gh, kh around 1?

[Condor]

hard water makes it so the sperm cannot penetrate the eggs, therefore they
do not get fertilized and turn white.


I am thinking more on the lines of raising young and keeping discus. Some say that it is actually better to raise the young in harder water because it helps them to develop better.

[Dave C]

I suggest anyone considering this do a search on the net or forums for water softeners & aquariums.

[ronrca]

1. GET A WATER SOFTNER
soft water is the most critical aspect of proper water for fish

DISCUS DO NOT DO ALL THAT WELL IN HARD WATER

PH is most healthy about 7, and for breeding 6.5 is best
but if water is soft PH becomes much less a factor.

I guess I am destined to fail with discus as my ph is 8.2 and TDS 380. Why dont discus not do well in hard water?

[american breeder]

I guess I am destined to fail with discus as my ph is 8.2 and TDS 380. Why dont discus not do well in hard water?
its a very complex question and much scientific mumbo jumbo would be needed to actually decribe the effects hard water and hi Ph have on discus fish etc..but SIMPLY put..its a metabolic thing ...and a chemical thing..blood thing..yikes, anybody who keeps discus fish seriously will tell u that hi ph and hi TDS spells infertile spawns and lack luster color..do yourself a favor and get a RO unit or water softner ..in your case get both hehe

when u see fish in soft water with a nuetral or slightly below nuetral PH you will see the difference ..fish much brighter and happier

see for yourself..

good luck
AB

[ronrca]

Thanks Marc! Perhaps I misunderstood you in the first post. I understand the breeding aspect of hard water and that osmosis occurs when eggs are laid and so on. I thought that you were also referring to raising discus in higher ph/TDS and that they do not do well.

[kaceyo]

Hey Marc,
Do you raise your fry/juvies in soft water also?
I have been told by a number of people that the sodium based household water softeners were not to be used for our fish. Do you use one yourself? And if you do what is the TDS of the processed water?
Thanx,

Kacey

[american breeder]

Hey Marc,
Do you raise your fry/juvies in soft water also?
I have been told by a number of people that the sodium based household water softeners were not to be used for our fish. Do you use one yourself? And if you do what is the TDS of the processed water?
Thanx,

Kacey
more old wives tales

i have large water softners

have for ever.... they work great

takeing my well water which is very strange water

from 770 TDS all the way down to about 100TDs

i use many thousands of gallons each day

so these units are on over drive

the salt is no biggy as most water softners have adjustable thingys to adjust the sodium levels in the final water product, i also have a water softner in line ahead of my commercial grade RO UNIT, this really aids the RO unit

i see where u guys were told that harding your water is a good thing

nope

baby discus grow fastest at PH 6 to 7
in softened water about 100tds
or less is ok as well if u can control

i dont like hard water for any phase of breeding

nope i am a softy at heart

AB

[ronrca]

Ok! What about larger discus around 2"+ to adults? Hard water ok for them as well or soft water period, no ifs ands or buts?

Btw, Marc, I am almost done setting up my RO. Just waiting for some replacement membranes.

[american breeder]

Ok! What about larger discus around 2"+ to adults? Hard water ok for them as well or soft water period, no ifs ands or buts?

Btw, Marc, I am almost done setting up my RO. Just waiting for some replacement membranes.
can u handle this Ron SOFT WATER IS ALWAYS BEST

for every discus fish ever bred

i dont like hard water at all
for my important lineage fish..fish i am depending on to make me some new color etc..

i use large peat filters with huge peat sumps..PH 5.5 TDS 25
i cant take chances with these fish..so they are conditions where virtually no pathogeon can prosper easily

oh yes...
when u see the fish kept in conditions as above described u simply cant believe how relaxed and colorful they are
they stay in mid water suspended like leaves

fins completly erect and breathing almost unnoticeable

if u want PM me i will give u recipe for such an enviorment

AB

AB

[kaceyo]

Very interesting!!! It's pretty much excepted by all here that harder water, up to 300ppm TDS, will increase the growth rate and improve development of bones etc. in young fish. I think Jack Wattley is at least partly responsible. He wrote that he noticed a significant difference in size between his own fish and a fellow Florida breeders when they split spawns, each raising half, and each using the same foods, water change ruetine etc. The only dif they could find was that his friends water was much harder than his own. I wonder if anyone has done side by side comparisons with soft vs hard water.

Kacey

[candyl70]

I found something in my book Baron's Discus Book,

" water hardness also affects the regulation of the fish's blood calcium level, so significant differences between a fish's native water hardness and its aquarium environment require the fish to work harder to maintain its blood calcium level."


I think that alone is a good reason for softer water. .. yes?



Candy

[ronrca]

Whos was bigger in size, Jacks or his friends?

Every breeder has their own ways and methods developed that works for them. Its very interesting that discus have now been tank bred for decades and many juvs grown out/raised in harder water. While breeding still take softer water, there is no scientific evidence that indicates the domestic discus fair better or worse in harder water. I remember Dick Au mentioning this as well in one of his workshops. Even the water that we are using for breeding is different that the biotope that discus orginially came from. I believe that we need to keep the word domestic in mind.

Let me also add the its usually not in the interest of the hobbyiest to spend money on RO just to keep discus. One of the myths attached to this type of fish and will deter many interested keepers.

[american breeder]

Very interesting!!! It's pretty much excepted by all here that harder water, up to 300ppm TDS, will increase the growth rate and improve development of bones etc. in young fish. I think Jack Wattley is at least partly responsible. He wrote that he noticed a significant difference in size between his own fish and a fellow Florida breeders when they split spawns, each raising half, and each using the same foods, water change ruetine etc. The only dif they could find was that his friends water was much harder than his own. I wonder if anyone has done side by side comparisons with soft vs hard water.

Kacey
this thing that watley and his friend did

i will tell u real answer

watleys friend was better breeder

it is simple

concerning what people here think

i have found a tremendous amount of mis info at this forum

mostly opinions about such and such topics that dont compute with TRUE HANDS ON EXPERIENCE

for me and my fish we are softys and always will be
they reach saleable size at 6 weeks
i also have a commercial grade distiller
oh yes only the very best for my fish
i spare no expense in raiseing and maintaining my facility and its population

concerning bones

they get more than enough calcium magnesium etc from the foods they eat in large quanities
RECIPE FOR QUICK GROWTH
1. SOFT WATER
2.TWICE DAILY WC
3. FEED FOODS RICH IN VITAMINS AND MINERALS
4 TEMP ABOUT 81
5. 14 HRS OF LIGHT A DAY

u see...
many so called facts at this forum are SIMPLY not real facts at all

like shipping fish without the lid on the styro insulated box..

when i saw this i said this is incredible

i told this to a friend of mine in HK
he laughed for 10 minutes

anywhoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
AB



AB

[candyl70]

Ron,
I agree that just to keep discus you definatley don't need an RO unit. Just if you want to breed. I like to keep them in soft water because it helps with so many different things. Meds work better, fish are brighter, more comfortable.... anyhow i haven't even attmepted breeding as of yet my fish are still babies... but some day...http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_8_4v.gif




Candy

[ronrca]

Marc, Im really glad your sharing your experiences with us. As you may of noticed in my posts, Im an advocate for evidence. Therefore, can you give me proof that domestic discus do better in soft rather than hard water. Have you tried raising discus in hard water? We agree on the breeding aspect however I would like to know how hard water affects growing and adult discus. If we have been posting misinformation about keeping discus, Id like to be the first to realize this thus please persuade me. Im listening!

I also like to add how do you measure 'comfortable' and more colored btw? I think my discus are great in color and comfortable as well.

[kaceyo]

Sorry,
It was Jacks friend that had the hard water whos fry were growing fastest. Thats why Jack is partly responsible for our beliefe that hard water grows discus faster. Few things in the discus world are so simple as "hard water grows fish faster" or visa versa. There are too many variables. But it's interesting that such completely opposite methods can be taken as the correct way by different people. In the end the best we can do is to try both whenever possible and keep an open mind to the rest.

Kacey

[american breeder]

Marc, Im really glad your sharing your experiences with us. As you may of noticed in my posts, Im an advocate for evidence. Therefore, can you give me proof that domestic discus do better in soft rather than hard water. Have you tried raising discus in hard water? We agree on the breeding aspect however I would like to know how hard water affects growing and adult discus. If we have been posting misinformation about keeping discus, Id like to be the first to realize this thus please persuade me. Im listening!

I also like to add how do you measure 'comfortable' and more colored btw? I think my discus are great in color and comfortable as well.
DO YOUR HOMEWORK
see for yourself

that is best proof

good luck

AB

[Dave C]

There ya go. Turn your temp down to 81ºF, add peat, get a water softener and change water twice daily at 100%. Got it.

[Kindredspirit]

There ya go. Turn your temp down to 81ºF, add peat, get a water softener and change water twice daily at 100%. Got it.



Hey Dave!

Did i miss something? Cuz i thought you hate to wc? Esp 2x daily! I think you are being factious....I so couldnt do twice a day... I do every other day @ 50%.... ( don't hit me anyone!)


Yes, No, maybe?http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_19_4.gif


Marie~

[ronrca]

Difference of opinion is fine and perhaps the end result is the factor. On one side a dedicated breeder, on the other a hobbyiest, each having to weigh the costs based on their situation and goals. Done the homework 3 years ago and had I required all the equipment for 'soft' water, I would not have started with discus. But I did and thanks to simplydiscus helping me understand that raising/keeping discus in my tap water was acceptable. Ive spend many hours learning about gh/kh/ph/conductivity/etc thanks to the internet. The best water that a hobbyiest, especially starting out, can provide is stable water parameters. Therefore as Dick Au stated, each person has their ways/methods. Even among dedicated breeders there are differences in methods. Simply put, there is no single way, cast in stone method. I know that there are breeders growing out their discus in harder water.

Marc, let me put this in a frank manner. Statements like:
many so called facts at this forum are SIMPLY not real facts at all

i have found a tremendous amount of mis info at this forum

mostly opinions about such and such topics that dont compute with TRUE HANDS ON EXPERIENCE
just cannot be simply be posted without evidence or explainations. Im not talking about 'this is the way to do it' or 'this is how its done', etc. I love science. Ive done my reading, hearing the likes of Dick Au speak and having 'hands on experience' with discus in hard water. Show me and others that discus in hard water scientifically why not? I know that Im not nearly as knowledge and experienced as yourself however I do not blindly follow. I need to understand!

[Dave C]

Hey Dave!

Did i miss something? Cuz i thought you hate to wc? Esp 2x daily!

I don't hate w/c. I do whatever is required to keep my fish healthy & growing. I was being facetious and I hope everyone reads that advice as such. I suggest that anyone starting out with Discus use their tap water to begin with. I would store it overnight in a large enough container to satisfy whatever w/c % you deem reasonable to start with. Then adjust your w/c frequency & % over time as you note problems. If daily w/c floats your boat then go for it. I also suggest that you start with a temp of 86º, especially for young fish, and especially if you're feeding a lot of food. Start your fish with the basic methods that are successful for the thousands of hobbyists on this & other Discus forums and adjust them over time to suit your circumstances. When advice is given, examine who is giving the advice, what kind of credibility they have, what kind of evidence they provide and what kind of proven success they've had. That was one of the reasons I mentioned that Cary was changing 30% every 2nd day... he's an example of the type of Discus keeper I follow. But everyone should think for themself and not simply follow the advice du jour.

[David_Hui]

Perhaps Marc is talking from a commerical breeder's point of view. As a business owner, he has to watch his bottom line; therefore, he requires high yield and high return for all his breeders. However, for hobbyists, we could breed and raise frys from tap water but the yield is just lower. The hatch rate for my last batch was about 45%, but I got over 100 frys and did not have any loses. I got my water straight from the tap.

pH 7.5
Conductivity 500 µs
Total Hardness 101.24 ppm

[candyl70]

David,
Did you use tap water when during the egg stage?? If so that is pretty good, especially at 7.5.

[David_Hui]

same old tap water.

[ronrca]

Your kidding David! 500uS? Wow! Thats around 250TDS isnt? Thats pretty good.

[David_Hui]

I guess they are about two to one relationship... I had about seven or eight batches which I kept and they were from four pairs. More proven pairs formed last year, but I didn't have enough resources to manage them all.

[Kindredspirit]

I guess they are about two to one relationship... I had about seven or eight batches which I kept and they were from four pairs. More proven pairs formed last year, but I didn't have enough resources to manage them all.



Hey David!

Sooooooo what happens when one doesnt have enough resources to manage them ? I guess they get eatin or just die off? Send them to me! I would love to raise a few babies! ....in a perfect world, yes? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_33_4.gif


Marie!

[candyl70]

If there isn't room to keep them, then i guess you would cull them, and sell the rest.

[american breeder]

Perhaps Marc is talking from a commerical breeder's point of view. As a business owner, he has to watch his bottom line; therefore, he requires high yield and high return for all his breeders. However, for hobbyists, we could breed and raise frys from tap water but the yield is just lower. The hatch rate for my last batch was about 45%, but I got over 100 frys and did not have any loses. I got my water straight from the tap.

pH 7.5
Conductivity 500 µs
Total Hardness 101.24 ppm
yes of course
one could not be very prosperous if they could only get a 50percent hatch rate

especially in california where your electric bill is out the door
this month 11thousand and change
for one month

hatch rate must be almost 100 percent
everything must be perfect
can not waste anything

very hard

thats why
only a couple of full time breeders in US

even the guys who were hot a few years ago all gone..
quiet

just to hard to do for almost everyone as commercial adventure
investment needed is very large
extreme

i have nine employess full time and 3 part time ones and u cant pay people minimum wage any more
not where i live
where a little dumpy house sells for almost a million bucks

and rent is 2 to 3 thousand a month

raiseing discus in US very costly


oh my my

AB

[candyl70]

11 Thousand?!!

OMG AB!! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_11_1.gif



I know what you mean about the rent there... my mom and her husband rented a house (by ocean) and it was outrageous!! It was definatley a little dump. That's why they moved to AZ.

[troyclark]

AB, I have been reading this post with much interest. I do not have a whole house water softener. My tap water is approx. 260 TDS. I was wondering if I could put a small media bad with softener pellets in my power filter and soften the water that way ?? Do you think would work. I have two identical 55 gallon tanks with 10 2.5" juvies in each. I am thinking of leaving one as is and trying the softener pellets in the other to see which gets me better results. What do you think I can expect. Thanks for looking.

[kaceyo]

troyclark,
Why not just try peatmoss? Do you age your water? If yes, it should be pretty easy to do and you can buy bales of peat for the price of a handfull of softening pellets. Those bags of resin don't treat enough water to do any good. But you should be OK with the water you have realy, unless your breeding or just want to try it.

Kacey

[american breeder]

I don't hate w/c. I do whatever is required to keep my fish healthy & growing. I was being facetious and I hope everyone reads that advice as such. I suggest that anyone starting out with Discus use their tap water to begin with. I would store it overnight in a large enough container to satisfy whatever w/c % you deem reasonable to start with. Then adjust your w/c frequency & % over time as you note problems. If daily w/c floats your boat then go for it. I also suggest that you start with a temp of 86º, especially for young fish, and especially if you're feeding a lot of food. Start your fish with the basic methods that are successful for the thousands of hobbyists on this & other Discus forums and adjust them over time to suit your circumstances. When advice is given, examine who is giving the advice, what kind of credibility they have, what kind of evidence they provide and what kind of proven success they've had. That was one of the reasons I mentioned that Cary was changing 30% every 2nd day... he's an example of the type of Discus keeper I follow. But everyone should think for themself and not simply follow the advice du jour.
i suggest Dave C u reread Carys water parameters etc..
AB

[raglanroad]

Ron,
I agree that just to keep discus you definatley don't need an RO unit. Just if you want to breed. I like to keep them in soft water because it helps with so many different things. Meds work better, fish are brighter, more comfortable.... anyhow i haven't even attmepted breeding as of yet my fish are still babies... but some day...
Candy
OK, I'll keep the thread rolling...
I think this is important overall, that many things go easier with soft water.
The whole method is one thing, but to take a part of it and apply it haphazard might give haphazard results.
Without the big and constant water changes, and lower pH, things could get dicey.
Cause if I remember, there is no biofilter going here.
The lower pH a good thing then.
The softened water is therefore a good thing.
Proofs not necessary on this occasion ; one thing follows the other. As to water chemistry and if pH is more easily lowered in softer water : that info is avilable.

Whether soft acid water has benefits toward spawning, hatching, or raising ;requires more proofs on the "soft vs. hard water raising" subject than has ever been supplied on this forum before. No solid proofs have ever been put forward so far, only personal observations.
Dave

[Dave C]

i suggest Dave C u reread Carys water parameters etc..
AB

I'm not sure what his parameters are. Maybe you could tell me what they are and why that enables him to do 30% w/c every 2nd day, because everyone should be so lucky. On second thought, maybe you're disputing that he does 30% w/c every 2nd day. No big deal, you're right, he didn't post it on this forum, at least I couldn't find it. But I found the thread that I was referring to & it is relevant to this discussion and could be of help to the members here, so thanks for challenging my unproven statement...

"Like I said I love It! 30% w/c every other day works well on me and My pockit book! and the discus still seem to grow and do very well."

Here's the part I liked, same attitude I have about w/c and no one calls Cary lazy...

"This system is so cool that it gives me less time Changeing water!"

Here's the thread:
http://discusasahobby.com/forum/index.php?topic=3235.0

Now I could be wrong, this thread is back from April, 2005. He could have decided that that wasn't enough water changing and altered his methods since then. Maybe he'll join the discussion and tell us his water parameters & w/c regime.

[David_Hui]

Dave C, I followed your experiment with great interest last year. Did you use water conditioner for your fresh water before wc and what type of filter did you use?

[american breeder]

I'm not sure what his parameters are. Maybe you could tell me what they are and why that enables him to do 30% w/c every 2nd day, because everyone should be so lucky. On second thought, maybe you're disputing that he does 30% w/c every 2nd day. No big deal, you're right, he didn't post it on this forum, at least I couldn't find it. But I found the thread that I was referring to & it is relevant to this discussion and could be of help to the members here, so thanks for challenging my unproven statement...

"Like I said I love It! 30% w/c every other day works well on me and My pockit book! and the discus still seem to grow and do very well."

Here's the part I liked, same attitude I have about w/c and no one calls Cary lazy...

"This system is so cool that it gives me less time Changeing water!"

Here's the thread:
http://discusasahobby.com/forum/index.php?topic=3235.0

Now I could be wrong, this thread is back from April, 2005. He could have decided that that wasn't enough water changing and altered his methods since then. Maybe he'll join the discussion and tell us his water parameters & w/c regime.
all u have to do Dave is go to carys website and read his stuff..it certainly doesnt equate to what u have been telling us and since cary is your discus guru,,u better get on the ball,just funnin with ya Dave C

[raglanroad]

In the aquarium, the pollutants rise till they reach a certain level , an equilibrium, and then the "graph" evens out. It doesn't make a big difference whether you change 30% every 2 days, or 15 % per day, or 45% every 3 days, the average amount of pollutants is the same over time.
What differs with WC regimes is the total pollutants level and the slope at which they rise to their equilibrium point.
Obviously more and bigger WC is going to be approaching toward the desired state whereas fewer and less is not going to do as well.
Feeding and body load per gal. also affects the total pollutant level long term as well as the rate at which pollutants rise.

[ronrca]

Marc, I can see why soft water is benefical from a commerical pov and appreciate your effort in explaining it. You have to make ends meet and I understand that.

The hobbyiest on the other hand is in a different situation. Ideally, it would be great if everyones tap water were soft unfortunatly, my tap is not. The lfs dont even take discus because they dont have ro. I tell them I raise them in my tap water and they now are willing to try them. Imo, many beginners with discus or some that only have a few tanks, its a big expense to install RO just to keep discus in a tank or two. If we tell them that RO is necessary to keep discus, they will keep guppies instead and the market doesnt grow. Id rather see the market grow for discus 1 successful beginner at a time by educating them that stable water parameters are the key not some biotope parameters that 100s of generation ago they originally came from so what they do then is add chemicals to lower ph because its cheaper than buying RO. In my area of the world, there are very few ppl that have discus just for this reason.

I have been successful in keeping discus in hard water however if this hard water has a negative phsyical effect on my discus, I want to change that.

[ronrca]

OK, I'll keep the thread rolling...
I think this is important overall, that many things go easier with soft water.
The whole method is one thing, but to take a part of it and apply it haphazard might give haphazard results.
Without the big and constant water changes, and lower pH, things could get dicey.
Cause if I remember, there is no biofilter going here.
The lower pH a good thing then.
The softened water is therefore a good thing.
Proofs not necessary on this occasion ; one thing follows the other. As to water chemistry and if pH is more easily lowered in softer water : that info is avilable.

Whether soft acid water has benefits toward spawning, hatching, or raising ;requires more proofs on the "soft vs. hard water raising" subject than has ever been supplied on this forum before. No solid proofs have ever been put forward so far, only personal observations.
Dave
Dave, I understand the water chemistry aspect of low ph. My concern is how discus fair in hard water. There is a going on from a phsyical aspect via osmosis, blood, metabolism, etc which can be seen from parameter swings and different water parameters between tanks and wc's, etc. However, if discus are already raised in and kept in stable conditions in hard water, how does it affect the discus on the long term?


In the aquarium, the pollutants rise till they reach a certain level , an equilibrium, and then the "graph" evens out. It doesn't make a big difference whether you change 30% every 2 days, or 15 % per day, or 45% every 3 days, the average amount of pollutants is the same over time.
What differs with WC regimes is the total pollutants level and the slope at which they rise to their equilibrium point.
Obviously more and bigger WC is going to be approaching toward the desired state whereas fewer and less is not going to do as well.
Feeding and body load per gal. also affects the total pollutant level long term as well as the rate at which pollutants rise. These pollutants, what are they btw?

[Dave C]

Dave C, I followed your experiment with great interest last year. Did you use water conditioner for your fresh water before wc and what type of filter did you use?

I use straight tap water, pH 7.5 conductivity of 200ms. For filtration I use hydro sponges for biological and HOT Magnums with micron filters for mechanical.

[Dave C]

all u have to do Dave is go to carys website and read his stuff..it certainly doesnt equate to what u have been telling us and since cary is your discus guru,,u better get on the ball,just funnin with ya Dave C

I understand. What you have to understand is that people change their methods over time. That website has been up for awhile whereas the link I provided is from earlier this year after Cary set up a new set of tanks in his basement for the 4th time. It seems he's changed his methods, though he might have changed them again since then. But if you want to discuss the methods posted on his website you have to consider them all. For example...

"All grow outs are raised in straight tap water with a pH of 7.2-7.5, ranging around 240 microsemens. Our temperature ranges from 88 degree F for fry three months and younger and 86 degree F for three months and up."

and

"The first six years of my discus adventure were almost my last. I was only running about 10 tanks or so and at that time it was quite a bit of work. I would age water with peat moss and water softening pillows. Not to mention my over use of skin burning acids that I used to try to lower the pH. At this time I had no other source but textbooks to refer to on discus health and care. Overall, I had no problem raising and growing discus but my plans to breed were a whole other story. I was wasting too much time and money tampering with my water like the books suggested and it finally got the best of me. I decided to give up. At this point, I decided to do water changes straight from the tap without any chemical combinations. My pH from the tap was 7.5 with a kH of 7 and a gh of 7. The books said it could not be done but this is what I did then and this is what I continue to do. Now all of my discus fry and future breeders are raised in pure tap water."

So before everyone decides to start softening their water, do some research and decide for yourself. Try raising Discus & even breeding Discus in your tap water before you start adjusting the parameters. Go with what has worked for many others and realize that a great many problems reported on boards like this are from people who stress out their fish from pH swings. Stability beats any specific pH level.

[ronrca]

I only wish I could say the same for my tap! After its aged, 8.2ph and 380TDS or 760uS. Ouch! Juvs and Adults are fine though. Breeding is another story altogether. I had some spawns but I doubt the eggs even had a chance to be fertilized.

I like to also add that I tried the chemical approach as well when I first got discus. I was able to get my ph down to around 7.5 and then it crashed. I never did put my discus into that water and Im only glad that I was using containers to age my water.

And now I have RO! :thumbsup: The evolution of discus keeping! ;)

[Kindredspirit]

If I May~


I purchased my discus from Cary and he told me wc everyday, straight from the tap~this was back in September of this year~


Now, I do not breed, nor do I know as much as you guys....and they were only juvies at the time as well~


Marie~:angel:

[Jeff]

i have found a tremendous amount of mis info at this forum

mostly opinions about such and such topics that dont compute with TRUE HANDS ON EXPERIENCE


AB


There's something I can agree with you on. I'm glad people just look at this as entertainment.

[Jeff]

especially in california where your electric bill is out the door
this month 11thousand and change
for one month


AB


Only 11k? you told me your electric bill is 14k ??????

[Dave C]

I should add that Cary's website reflects how he cared for his Discus when he was a commercial breeder. From what he has told me his move back to his basement is an attempt to return to the life of a hobbyist. So perhaps his w/c regime reflects a change in goals & a change in stocking density, feeding etc. But what the link I provided also seems to indicate is that an increase in the type & quality of filtration has allowed him to reduce w/c.

I don't doubt he advises his customers to change water daily. Better to be safe then sorry. But in time you should develop your own methods, styles & see what works for you & your fish.

[american breeder]

Marc, I can see why soft water is benefical from a commerical pov and appreciate your effort in explaining it. You have to make ends meet and I understand that.

The hobbyiest on the other hand is in a different situation. Ideally, it would be great if everyones tap water were soft unfortunatly, my tap is not. The lfs dont even take discus because they dont have ro. I tell them I raise them in my tap water and they now are willing to try them. Imo, many beginners with discus or some that only have a few tanks, its a big expense to install RO just to keep discus in a tank or two. If we tell them that RO is necessary to keep discus, they will keep guppies instead and the market doesnt grow. Id rather see the market grow for discus 1 successful beginner at a time by educating them that stable water parameters are the key not some biotope parameters that 100s of generation ago they originally came from so what they do then is add chemicals to lower ph because its cheaper than buying RO. In my area of the world, there are very few ppl that have discus just for this reason.

I have been successful in keeping discus in hard water however if this hard water has a negative phsyical effect on my discus, I want to change that.
RO units are cheap for the most part everyone who has discus shoud have one and for the bigger peppes water softeners are grand, dont underestimate the hobbyists
. now here is one of my general statements take it with a grain of salt

the reason there are so few prosperous breeder in the US
is because they use tap water ..ok..now freak out
AB

[american breeder]

Only 11k? you told me your electric bill is 14k ??????
ive installed wood pellet heaters

they are saveing me some money
and as i get more of them up my goal is to get the bill down around 5k

heating a 20ksqft building isnt easy

these pellet furnaces are great though

[ronrca]

the reason there are so few prosperous breeder in the US
is because they use tap water ..ok..now freak out
AB

Lol! I like your sense of humor but I will not freak out. Let me state that where I live, unless I import RO unit from the US, they are expensive to buy just for drinking water never mind wc's for discus. My parents recently bought a RO unit from Home Depot that has something like 10gpd output. They paid around $300US. I was curious what a local water shop charges for a 100gpd membrane - $110US. Prefilters are around $10 for sediments and $25 for carbons. Local RO units are a rip off here and the local shops are charging a lot for them hence the reluctance for discus and RO. I agree that everyone should have one and not only specificly for discus.

[David_Hui]

Ron,

Is there some special canadian tax on RO? Why is it so expensive?

Dave C,

Do you use any water conditioner like Prime to pre-treat your water?

Thanks

David

[Dave C]

Ron, I've got a used 200gpd RO unit with brand new membranes (still sealed) and brand new prefilters that I'm willing to sell for $200 Cdn + shipping. I've also got a bunch of extra carbon & sediment prefilters that I can get a price on.

David, there is only chlorine in my tap water so I don't add anything at all to it. It sits overnight and is ready for use. There will be chloramine added in the next year or two and I've already got a big bucket of Safe.

AB, no need to freak out. Your opinions are merely your opinions. You're welcome to them and anyone can choose to follow your advice and report back to the forum.

[Namreg]

RO Units are actually pretty cheap, if not bought from a fish store, etc. I got mine (110 GPD, 6 Stage Unit) at a Ebay store, directly from the Manufacturer for $95.00. Shipping to Canada is $30.00.

If you want to check it out:

http://cgi.ebay.com/AQUARIUM-2-110GPD-RO-2DI-REVERSE-OSMOSIS-water-system_W0QQitemZ7724744261QQcategoryZ20756QQtcZpho toQQcmdZViewItem

[ronrca]

Ron,

Is there some special canadian tax on RO? Why is it so expensive?

I dont know! Maybe its the Canadian philosophy of 'charge lots, sell few' rather than the opposite. Or perhaps they have a lot of overhead. I dont know! Example:
http://www.distillerwarehouse.com/filters-cartridges.htm

Thanks Dave! I already have an RO filter. I was just checking out local stores for the replacements as a comparison and perhaps why people shy away from RO setups.

[Jeff]

20k sq building with only discus?

[american breeder]

Ron, I've got a used 200gpd RO unit with brand new membranes (still sealed) and brand new prefilters that I'm willing to sell for $200 Cdn + shipping. I've also got a bunch of extra carbon & sediment prefilters that I can get a price on.

David, there is only chlorine in my tap water so I don't add anything at all to it. It sits overnight and is ready for use. There will be chloramine added in the next year or two and I've already got a big bucket of Safe.

AB, no need to freak out. Your opinions are merely your opinions. You're welcome to them and anyone can choose to follow your advice and report back to the forum.
I can freak if i like haha
and what i post Dave c is more than opinion..u can spin me anyway u want Dave and u have done a good job of it..but it still doesnt change the circumstance
anywhooooooooooooooooooooooooo

Dave C.....inmho
if u want to have hi production anyway u raise them..
u need to have best quality water u can muster.

water is secret
clean water clean healthy fish

dirty water unhealthy ugly fish

discus keeping is like takeing care of new born baby
must always be attentive

even at 3 am in the morning

must always be vigilant

yet it is SIMPLE

nice water, clean disease free food, good light, plenty of fresh water ah discus is happy comes and greets u when u come in hatchery everyone excited feeding time and saying hello time..they like this alot..i do my rounds three times a day

this way fish get to know me at feeding times
very important for breeder to feed his own fish

yes being breeder is very conscious job..u cant be off in lala land..u must look at each fish each day a couple of times a day
then when u send out to customers and ask highest prices in industry

they pay it

the fish speak for themselves no proof beyond the fish is needed
thats the best proof any breeder can have

no one here has proof of anything outside their opinions

again for me

proof is in your fish
no other proof is needed

AB

[ronrca]

proof is in your fish
no other proof is needed Lets see them! Enough talk! Lets walk the walk (Ok! Poor attempt at poetry). I want to see pics of your discus and hatchery! ;) :D I dont mean this in a negative way. I love seeing pics! :thumbsup: O and dont forget your signature.

[David_Hui]

Marc, Amen!!

[Dave C]

I'm hardly spinning you Mark. I'm saying that you're welcome to your opinions. I don't doubt that you have a 20k sq. ft. building. I see no evidence of it, but I still don't doubt it. I'm not sure how you can know the reason that individual breeders stopped breeding Discus, but I'm sure you have evidence of that too. The bottom line is that you're right, no one here has proof of anything outside of their opinions. Including you. But some people do provide evidence of their opinions & statements. Evidence like pictures of their facility, pictures of their tanks full of babies, tanks with pairs with eggs, growout tanks with adolescent fish, pics of their water treatment facility, stuff like that. That's the kind of stuff that provides credibility for the opinions.

[Jeff]

Well I'm driving to Portland Thanksgiving. I could leave a day early and stop by Marks if he will let me verify his place and everything he has said on this forum. No pics he doesn't even have to let me in. Just stand at the door and verify what he is saying exists and is there. Think about it Mark. You can get credibility or well..... Let me know. I can make the trip. A 20k sq ft facility would be cool.

[Kindredspirit]

Well I'm driving to Portland Thanksgiving. I could leave a day early and stop by Marks if he will let me verify his place and everything he has said on this forum. No pics he doesn't even have to let me in. Just stand at the door and verify what he is saying exists and is there. Think about it Mark. You can get credibility or well..... Let me know. I can make the trip. A 20k sq ft facility would be cool.



Very Good Idea, Jeff~



Marie~:angel:

[american breeder]

Marc, Amen!!
and Amen to u DH

the funniest thing about all this is i already put some nice pics up and they were truned against me and used to bring suspcion upon me..the spin is deep here David..its a group thing..

Bridgitte was bye last sunday

with Thom

we had fun..

David i lost your number call me if u like sorry

AB

[american breeder]

Well I'm driving to Portland Thanksgiving. I could leave a day early and stop by Marks if he will let me verify his place and everything he has said on this forum. No pics he doesn't even have to let me in. Just stand at the door and verify what he is saying exists and is there. Think about it Mark. You can get credibility or well..... Let me know. I can make the trip. A 20k sq ft facility would be cool.
i appreciate your interest Jeff


but we have already offered u the fish and u said our prices were to hi

so if you are not going to buy fish then i need to spend my time doing something productive..I invited u this september for an open house but i think u were out of the country at the time..or the invitation never reached u

im not sure..

but again in the spring i have one and dont forget the december auction where i let go of last years breeders and lineage fish, also BROOD STOCK INDIVIDUALS

i wish u only well..

AB

[Dave C]

When Hans was telling about the Stendker facilities he posted pics of rows upon rows of tanks completely full of Discus of all sizes. You couldn't see the back wall on the tanks there was so many fish. He showed pics of the bagging stations, the filtration section, the water treatment and tons of pics of their fish. Prior to that Hans ran his own hatchery, something he also gave pictorial tours of. If he had simply left his hatchery and started selling Discus for Stendker without mentioning where the fish were coming from and showing pics of the facility there would have been requests for those pics. It's only human nature. For some reason he & Stendker saw no reason to withhold these pics nor did they feel that it was out of line to expect to see where the customers' fish were coming from.

On the other side of fence, Bruce Wilson at Majestic won't allow people to come to his facility to choose their fish. He also won't allow visitors in just to view his facility. He has his reasons and he can operate on whatever basis he chooses. But the secrecy that he insists on affects his credibility. It also affects how his opinions are received. Anyone can join a forum and make claims. Anyone.

If you welcomed Bridgitte & Thom to your facility I guess there's no reason not to similarly welcome Jeff.

I'm not sure which "David" you're referring to, but it can't be me as I never gave you my number.

[ronrca]

O! Ic! How about just posting pics of your hatchery? No ones going to claim them as their own as that would be pointless imo! And you can put your signature on it like this!

You can email me the pics and I will put your name on it if you want!

[Jeff]

No problem. Just trying to add some credibility is all.

I don't think I got your last invation. I may have been gone.

[terps]

Hey guys,
I have a 15 inch discus that's 3 inches thick. It's an albino too. I created it myself. Of course I had to breed over 250,000 discus to get this albino. I'd post pictures of my 15 inch albino discus, but I don't want anybody stealing it. Sorry, nobody can visit my 50k square foot building, except my imaginary friends. But trust me, really trust me, this albino discus is SWEET!!!

:D :D :D

[Dave C]

Apparently it was a one-time offer Jeff. I don't understand that. If I'm concerned about shelling out money for fish that seem pricey to me, letting me see the fish is the best way to get me to open my wallet.

[David_Hui]

I hope they picked up some cool fish. Tom is very in tune with his fishes and he has a pretty neat set up inside his house.

[raglanroad]

The Canadian stores charge a lot for RO. You'll pay about 5x the price you would pay for the cheapest e-bay unit. Seems only on-line businesses give any deals on prefilters too.
But since then you have drinking water, RO is such a great deal.

[David_Hui]

Dave C,

I use prime for all my water change and I suspect my filter are not working as well because there is no ammonia for those nitrifier to feed on. What do you think.

David

[Dave C]

Prime doesn't remove ammonia, there's plenty for your filters. Prime detoxifies it but it's still available as food for your filter.

[David_Hui]

Prime locks up ammonia, but is it available for nitrifier to consume? May be it's time for an experiment :)

[american breeder]

When Hans was telling about the Stendker facilities he posted pics of rows upon rows of tanks completely full of Discus of all sizes. You couldn't see the back wall on the tanks there was so many fish. He showed pics of the bagging stations, the filtration section, the water treatment and tons of pics of their fish. Prior to that Hans ran his own hatchery, something he also gave pictorial tours of. If he had simply left his hatchery and started selling Discus for Stendker without mentioning where the fish were coming from and showing pics of the facility there would have been requests for those pics. It's only human nature. For some reason he & Stendker saw no reason to withhold these pics nor did they feel that it was out of line to expect to see where the customers' fish were coming from.

On the other side of fence, Bruce Wilson at Majestic won't allow people to come to his facility to choose their fish. He also won't allow visitors in just to view his facility. He has his reasons and he can operate on whatever basis he chooses. But the secrecy that he insists on affects his credibility. It also affects how his opinions are received. Anyone can join a forum and make claims. Anyone.

If you welcomed Bridgitte & Thom to your facility I guess there's no reason not to similarly welcome Jeff.

I'm not sure which "David" you're referring to, but it can't be me as I never gave you my number.eggsactly so why comment
i did not say facility

now did i Dave The Spin C

they came to my home

and i will invite Jeff again in the spring

now go play DaveC

u know with all the thousands of memebers this forum is dominated by a few

i see a pattern here

and again the thread has been hi jacked

i will try again

AB

[ronrca]

u know with all the thousands of memebers this forum is dominated by a few

i see a pattern here

and again the thread has been hi jacked

i will try again
Guess Im one of them! :D

You could become a sponsor and could post to your hearts content! ;)

[Dave C]

Semantics... 20,000 sq ft area for Discus breeding. Whether you live there or not, it's a facility for breeding Discus. But whatever, I didn't expect you would show any pics.

As for a pattern of posting and a forum dominated by a few, you've made 211 posts since you joined in Sept/05. I've made 428 since June/03, 79 since Sept 1/05.

[ronrca]

Prime locks up ammonia, but is it available for nitrifier to consume? May be it's time for an experiment :)

From the seachem site:

Prime™ is the complete and concentrated conditioner for both fresh and salt water. Prime™ removes chlorine, chloramine and ammonia. Prime™ converts ammonia into a safe, non-toxic form that is readily removed by the tank’s biofilter. Prime™ may be used during tank cycling to alleviate ammonia/nitrite toxicity. Prime™ detoxifies nitrite and nitrate, allowing the biofilter to more efficiently remove them. It will also detoxify any heavy metals found in the tap water at typical concentration levels.Prime™ also promotes the production and regeneration of the natural slime coat. Prime™ is non-acidic and will not impact pH. Prime™ will not overactivate skimmers. Use at start-up and whenever adding or replacing water. I have cloramines and I did the test in a 10G that I was cycling. I got ammonia reading when first added water but then it was converted to nitrate after a day. Keeps my filters going without having to add fish or food. ;) It also removes heavy which I also accidently experimented. I was using titanitum bike spokes for water level sensors and after a couple of days the rods were 'eaten up', gone!

HTH

Sorry Marc! I didnt mean to hijack you thread. O and talking about # of posts a day, check your profiles for the #.

[Jeff]

I'll come in the spring and take a look. I'm sure I'll enjoy it.

[Dave C]

i did not say facility

now did i Dave The Spin C

they came to my home

I didn't quite understand what you meant but I get it now. Bridgette & Tom came to your house, not your facility. Got it.

btw, I only go by one name, Dave Clubine. You call me by that name and I'll refer to you as Mark Fleishman, Marc Lotus, Mark Weiss, American Breeder, whatever you prefer.

[american breeder]

I'll come in the spring and take a look. I'm sure I'll enjoy it.
that will be well accepted

now i know u have seen it all and been to everyones place
in asia and u have seen probably some really hi grade fish some incredible fish

its not going to be easy to impress u

i know this

but this is what i do every day is sell fish that are very impressive

very select some fish u will see u will see they are identical to other asian breeders

well i have to survive dont i

my stock list isnt only about
wierd new albinos

LATEST APRICOT YELLOW ALBINO

a person will be posting pics of the little pair they just obtained from me

the fish are simply to die for

i gave him a good deal

u will see the fish within a month or so

at SIMPLY

so getting back to impressing hard nose discus nuts

i do everyday..
maybe they dont agree on every fish and it happens everyday too

she dont like
next person comes in a hour he wants
he dont like what she liked

all the fish are very unique at the level these folks are obtaining them at

a very large percentage of my client at this level are ORIENTALS

they like the unique red fish especially..i have them in spades the modernised
RED TURQ, RED ALBINO, HI BDY HI FIN RED DIAMOND WITH AND WITHOUT STRAIATIONS.. and they love my yellows



oh yeah baby

gorgeous

i sell the fish by the tank 6 fish in this tank 4 in another and so forth

each tank usually contains one obvious pair and secondary mateings

most people that come to my showroom

they want brood stock
they want something that will seperate them from everyone else

it aint easy Jeff

but i keep on truckin

okie dokie then

see u in the spring

AB

[Jeff]

I'm not expecting you to cater to me or try to impress me. My goals would be simple.

1. Verify you have what you say you have. Tanks, a building, workers, pairs etc. Without pics no one is believing you at this time. I think more people believe in Santa than Mark.

2. If I'm allowed to take a few pics I will or if you rather I don't then I won't. Or take a few pics and have you approve them before I post if allowed. It is up to you.

3. If it is real I'm sure I will find a good number of discus I will want to buy.

[PhilOpion]

Hey AB, Watts you're bisnice name?

[Dkarc@Aol.com]

Hey AB, Watts you're bisnice name?

Lotus Aquatics I do believe....

-Ryan

[Kindredspirit]

Lotus Aquatics I do believe....

-Ryan



Thanks, Ryan....but....... No website/webpage/nada/ , under that name~




Mariehttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_5_14.gif

[April]

i believe its a wholesale business. wholesalers not usually open to the public.

[DarkDiscus]

Mark stated in a previous post that he has an affiliation of some sort with Discus Madness. Some of the text on that website sounds much like Marks writing style, or someone who is on the same page as Mark.

HTH,

John

[Dave C]

John, that's true. But from posts on this site Discus Madness seems to have a capacity to hold about 400 fish and on the phone Mark told me he ships minimum orders of $3000 worth of fish, which is why we won't see his fish offered at too many U.S. sites. Discus Madness has also been sending out emails regarding the offering of culls & previously diseased fish, which doesn't sound like they could be from Mark Fleishman. So, combining that kind of disparity of information along with the lack of pictorial evidence of a 20k sq. ft. facility on this forum, it leads to customer confusion.

[JimmyL]

AB denied he's Mark Weiss when I asked at the beginning of his posting. Mark Weiss had good fish when I first met him in Florida and in Fact, I bought the first RSG from him back in 1995 I guess when I visited Gabriel in Florida. Why didn't Mark just come right out and say who he is???. What had happened is a past and no one remember. Stop drilling from the past.... JQ and Discus in Profile is gone.....You've got nothing to hide, an ex-professor in China or not. Who cares? You're classify as Pioneer of Discus. I do repect someone has the tenacity to last so long and remain in business. He must have something to offer to novice hobbyist...It may be good for your business if you come right out and tell the truth. I didn't like Mark Weiss's personality when I first met him but I still bought fish and the medication he manufactured and created simply he had the best RSG I'd ever seen back then and the best dewormer I've ever used.
Jimmy

[David_Hui]

I think Marc is the really deal, but he just wants to doing things his way...

[Kindredspirit]

AB denied he's Mark Weiss when I asked at the beginning of his posting. Mark Weiss had good fish when I first met him in Florida and in Fact, I bought the first RSG from him back in 1995 I guess when I visited Gabriel in Florida. Why didn't Mark just come right out and say who he is???. What had happened is a past and no one remember. Stop drilling from the past.... JQ and Discus in Profile is gone.....You've got nothing to hide, an ex-professor in China or not. Who cares? You're classify as Pioneer of Discus. I do repect someone has the tenacity to last so long and remain in business. He must have something to offer to novice hobbyist...It may be good for your business if you come right out and tell the truth. I didn't like Mark Weiss's personality when I first met him but I still bought fish and the medication he manufactured and created simply he had the best RSG I'd ever seen back then and the best dewormer I've ever used.
Jimmy


Sooooooo Jimmy~

Marc, AB, is, your Mark Weiss? I am confused....

Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_5_16.gif

[jeep]

Getting back to the original debate... I wish others who have had experience raising discus in water softened water would post their experiences... Dottie?? Ronald???

BTW... Here's a discus raised from 2 1/2" in 680+TDS water and a PH of over 8... He's about 7"

[jeep]

Here's another that was raised from the same size under the same conditions. He spawns regularly and produces a nearly 100% hatch rate (180-200 eggs) in the same tap water...

[jeep]

Here's the result of his attempts in the liquid rock we have in KC...

[jeep]

And here's a discus I raised in very soft water. TDS around 120. PH around 7. Notice the collapsed dorsal fin? About 40% of the fry from this batch had the same problem...

[ronrca]

Let me hear this again Jeep!


Here's a discus raised from 2 1/2" in 680+TDS water and a PH of over 8... He's about 7" Sweet! Its like my water. :thumbsup: WHew. Im glad to hear that. Thanks for sharing and what beautiful discus they are.

[jeep]

I'm not saying AB's way is the wrong way or mine is the right way, but I wouls hate to see everyone run out and spend a fortune on a whole house water softener and end up with the results so many others have come here for help for...

Maybe a water softener is a good thing, but more research on water additives and performance would be warrented...

[JeffreyRichard]

AB, where do you get your information?

[jeep]

LOL Ron... And I have another pair that will have a ZERO % hatch rate unless the water is VERY soft. Around 50TDS...

Go figure:)

[raglanroad]

the pic looks like he has a dent into the body where you mention the collapsed dorsal.
can you give more information as to how the problem appeared, any treatments, and the progression of this problem.
Why do you think others may not have this problem with soft water?
It should be a very common thing to hear.
How did you get/soften the softer water that caused the problem? This part may be key to understanding.
Thank You

[jeep]

raglanroad,

After consulting with some of the great minds here, we determined this is the result of a mineral deficiency at the early stages of development. Low TDS water, or at least low in calcium and potassium. There is no cure, which is why all but this one ended up in the flower garden :( This batch raised in low TDS water was the only batch from these parents affected...

[ronrca]

I'm not saying AB's way is the wrong way or mine is the right way, I dont think anyone is saying the AB is wrong. What comes to light is that there is actually more ways to successfully raise discus than just 1 and thats what Id like to promote especially to beginners. Its much easier to keep discus without having to spend hundreds of dollars and much easier to understand stable water parameters rather than matching biotope conditions. ;) Of course there are those that are lucky to already have those parameters perfect for breeding.

[David_Hui]

Ron,

"Its much easier to keep discus without having to spend hundreds of dollars"

You are funny. I would like to find out who have not spent hundreds of dollars on this fish.

:)

[raglanroad]

Jeep, sorry I edit my posts, it's confusing.

a TDS of 120 is not even low by some standards.

some questions that may be rhetorical:

how do fish manage to grow in the wild with some water basically zilch in GH?

any reason to think/proof that fish get the majority of minerals through the water, not the food? It is known that fish CAN absorb minerals thru the gills. But is that a way that growth happens usually? Food manufacturers all seem to include minerals...

did you use an ion exchange resin or DI unit to soften the water?

why were not more fish affected?

isn't this type of thing attributable to disease more often than not?

Thanks, Dave

[ronrca]

You are funny. I would like to find out who have not spent hundreds of dollars on this fish.

:)
On the fish yes but if you dont need to go out and buy a RO unit for your 75G with 7 discus, you save yourself a couple hundred bucks! :D Sorry for the misunderstanding and you do have a point. I think a lot of us are at thousands rather than hundreds. ;)

[raglanroad]

I dont think anyone is saying the AB is wrong. What comes to light is that there is actually more ways to successfully raise discus than just 1 and thats what Id like to promote especially to beginners. Its much easier to keep discus without having to spend hundreds of dollars and much easier to understand stable water parameters rather than matching biotope conditions. ;) Of course there are those that are lucky to already have those parameters perfect for breeding. Ron, though I agree that there is more than one way to do things, there are always better and worse, too...
But about the tapwater stability thing...that tap water is stable is not true.

Just a check with a TDS meter from day to day will tell the story for many people. I know one person here who did post their water company report, stating the TDS went from 100 to 700 real fast with seasonal change. That is not stable, Ron!

My own tap went from 176 to 236 in a week, then back down to 160. That was on the rare occasion when I test it, just for someone else's information.

Stable tapwater? For some locations it may be. For a long time. Then, crunch time. big chlorine addition unannounced. Work on the neighborhood pipes...toxic water, all fish in tank dead...as happened to someone I know. The water ran reddish in the morning, a visible warning ,but too late for the one tank of fish that was killed.

Tap is fine for those that do not ever run into these problems, but for those who do, it's not so fine.
Dave

[jeep]

Hi Dave,


how do fish manage to grow in the wild with some water basically zilch in GH?

any reason to think/proof that fish get the majority of minerals through the water, not the food? It is known that fish CAN absorb minerals thru the gills. But is that a way that growth happens usually? Food manufacturers all seem to include minerals...
I can only speculate on some of the questions you ask, but I would have to agree with AB about a diet rich in all the protein and minerals needed to grow large discus in the wild.

What I do know is all my fish are fed the same diet and I do 30% water changes every 2-3 days. My tanks filtration are assisted with a HOT magnum filter, as mentioned in an experiment that Dave C performed. Fry get water changes every day. I soften my breeding water with an RO unit, which produces water in the 10-20TDS range depending on the season.


isn't this type of thing attributable to disease more often than not?

Also, I am not the only one in this area with these types of defects in discus fry and juvies. TDS, MS or GH do not tell you what is in the water. Only that there is a concentration of SOMETHING in the water. In KC, the water sucks!!! And since I am not the only one in this region to have these identical defects under almost identical conditions, and since it has not happened again, then I am 100% confident in ruling out any disease or genetic issue...

[ronrca]

Dave,
reread again!
understand stable water parameters where understand the key word is and the word tap is not in the sentence! I know what you mean however I believe its easier to educate someone on testing their own water regularly. If there are problems like you mention, then deal with it rather than assuming the worst first. jmo!

[Dave C]

jeep, how long as it been since you started using HOT Magnums and fewer w/c? Have you noticed any difference in growth & health of your Discus? Are you growing out fry using this method too? What about beefheart, do you use that?

[terps]

IMO, water softeners for discus are very bad. I agree with what Mary says in this article:
http://www.netpets.org/fish/reference/freshref/discuswater.html


Not only did I create the albino discus... but I also created the blue diamond, the white diamond and the hope diamond. Trust me people. Believe! :D

[jeep]

Hi Dave,

It's been about 1 1/2 years since I started using the magnums. I can't say I've noticed a huge difference in the growth and health... it's seems about the same, but I do notice the fewer water changes I perform. The spotteds below were about 2 1/2" when I got them about 4 months ago and are now about 5" - 5 1/2" and as healthy as can be. Just starting to pair off...

I feed primarily a beefheart mixture consisting of 50/50 trimmed beefheart/shrimp, also adding a dose of vitamins, minerals and other goodies. I feed them about 4-6 times a day...

P.S. I do not use this method for fry...

[ronrca]

IMO, water softeners for discus are very bad. I agree with what Mary says in this article:
http://www.netpets.org/fish/reference/freshref/discuswater.html


Not only did I create the albino discus... but I also created the blue diamond, the white diamond and the hope diamond. Trust me people. Believe! :D Good article however she contradicts herself a little.

The water should be soft, between 3 and 15dH. The pH should be between 5 and 6.5. This is where most discuskeepers have trouble. Discus would prefer not to compromise on these values. To believe that you can acclimate discus to harder water or to higher pH levels or lower temperatures is folly. The discus may live, may breed even, but they are living and breeding under stress. In fish, as in humans, stress shortens their lives and makes them more susceptible to disease. Strive for the ideal rather than trying to cheat the system.


The lower reading for alkalinity is the more desirable for discus water. Discus will do quite well in slightly to moderately hard water. In fact, many breeders routinely keep their fish in these values to ensure proper development of the young fish, but for development of the eggs, soft to moderately soft water, particularly concerning alkalinity is critical. Therefore, it is not necessary to drastically adjust the general hardness or alkalinity when you first start to keep discus unless the values are very high.

One question also if someone could explain:

At pH levels above 7, discus are stressed. Why?

[jeep]

oops.. forgot the pic. I can't post and talk on the phone at the same time :D

[raglanroad]

Hi Dave,


I can only speculate on some of the questions you ask, but I would have to agree with AB about a diet rich in all the protein and minerals needed to grow large discus in the wild.
This would also seem to be in line with what all aquaculture research facilities do to grow fish- feed them a reasonable diet :)

What I do know is all my fish are fed the same diet and I do 30% water changes every 2-3 days. My tanks filtration are assisted with a HOT magnum filter, as mentioned in an experiment that Dave C performed. Fry get water changes every day. I soften my breeding water with an RO unit, which produces water in the 10-20TDS range depending on the season.

This would indicate large scale fluctuations in your tapwater.


Also, I am not the only one in this area with these types of defects in discus fry and juvies. TDS, MS or GH do not tell you what is in the water. Only that there is a concentration of SOMETHING in the water. In KC, the water sucks!!! And since I am not the only one in this region to have these identical defects under almost identical conditions, and since it has not happened again, then I am 100% confident in ruling out any disease or genetic issue...Sounds correct on the genetics, but the water could easily be contaminated, have bacterial or other problems.

So do you attribute this problem to soft water?

[jeep]

This particular problem? Based upon my conversations with Al and others, as well as reading up on the subject, yes I do... Maybe not the water entirely, but the lack of minerals and such...

BTW, I corrected this by adding trace minerals to both my tap water and my RO water...

[KIWI13]

I still believe that Brian ( JEEP) has the best damn goldens in the world. Brian, I really wish there was a way to get some off you. You have fantistic fish.

jason.

as for the debate, very interesting topic. I think its all about what conditions the fish are used to being kept in. I think the MOST IMPORTANT is to keep the parameters CONSTANT for success. Seems like logic.

[jeep]

Thanks for the complement Jas!!!

And I couldn't agree more about your statement. It's all about what works best for the individual and their practices. I pick and choose what ideas others have that I will try or implement, and on a rare occasion I come up with something all by myself :D When I do, I share it. If I see someone telling of a horror story, I take it seriously.

BTW Jas, here's the juvie shown earlier. Conceived, hatched and raised in liquid rock... She's now a proud part of my future breeders :)

[raglanroad]

Its much easier to keep discus without having to spend hundreds of dollars and much easier to understand stable water parameters rather than matching biotope conditions. ;) Ron, the statement seems to me , still, to imply more than the words themselves say. Because the forum seems heavily on the side that tapwater does offer stability, repeated again and again, while the "doctoring the water" statement comes with a "warning " of types ( which I think is unfounded), that it is very difficult. So by a series of statements, we have "stability" and "tapwater" grouped together. "doctoring" gets the idea across of "doctored" papers, "doctored" this or that falsely changed or contaminated item.

this is what I was addressing, not the particulars of which words were used...sorry anyway, if I got it wrong.

BTW
Do you not often see the "doctor" statement along with a put down of water altering? A type of slur ? I think it is misleading.
I think maintaining pH becomes a chore once you do the Mary Sweeney thing. More WC is the answer to ph going down, not more alkalinity. Her problem = waste buildup. Pollutants are whatever the metabolism of food leaves in the water, and input from any bodily processes where something other than water builds up. Metals, salts, hormones, whatever.
Dave

[Dave C]

What you point out is correct. When people give advice they assume that what works for them will work for everyone. My tapwater is stable as a rock. It's the same pH, same conductivity every time. The biggest risk is that the city will flush the lines. I caught that one time when my holding tank turned light brown, though I've also noticed it in the toilet bowl after flushing. That's one reason why I insist on storing water overnight... it allows me to ensure the water at least "looks" good. I must admit that I haven't tested pH, hardness, amm/nit/nit for a couple of years other then just to answer a question that someone here in town had. But when I was testing it more frequently it was very stable. So it's an assumption that everyone would have stable tapwater, though as you point out that would not necessarily be the case.

But when you alter the water, you increase the risk of instability to a far greater degree, in my experience. Of course that partly depends on how you alter it. I used HCl for awhile to reduce the pH of my water because I thought I had to for Discus. This acid works by stripping away the hardness and then the pH drops. Even if you nail the pH to the same level every time you risk instability in your tank because the water is so fragile, a pH crash is always imminent. That's why people who alter their pH also insist on huge daily w/c, it's a requirement to maintain the pH. Compare that to using tapwater (my tapwater at least) the hardness makes the drop in pH much more gradual. That's not to say that someone couldn't have great success with altered pH / hardness, but it's not something that a newcomer to aquariums should start with. Nor is it necessary in almost every case I've heard of. If my water was unsuitable for Discus, as seen by trying to house Discus in my water, I'd either opt for RO mixed with tap, or switch to fish that would love my water.

[ronrca]

Dave (raglanroad),

I believe its easier to educate someone on testing their own water regularly. If there are problems like you mention, then deal with it rather than assuming the worst first. jmo!


That's not to say that someone couldn't have great success with altered pH / hardness, but it's not something that a newcomer to aquariums should start with. :thumbsup:

I agree that the forum leans towards using tap as, imo, is a good starting point. If it poses problems like you mention and it happens, then the next steps can be taken or educated for better preventation/treatment/etc. Its a learning process taking a step at a time (thats the way it was with me anyways). There is a lot of info that can be overwhelming for starters.

[raglanroad]

Actually, it's as simple as pie. Just get your RO water, add the same amount of mineral formula each time, and voila ! the exact replica of last time, no tapwater is closer to the previous values. For the stickler, measure the minerals with a scale.
What are the pitfalls? None. You check your RO with a TDS meter, to makesure it is working. So you have no chloramine issue, no ammonia issue, no changing parameter issue, nothing.
As Dave says, this demands a hobbyist dedicated to upkeep of the tank.
But as to this thread, AB's thread relates to becoming a discus breeder in one way which can optimise results.

But nobody has mentioned the thing I would be cautious of with ion exchange resins. Bacterial growth big time. Maybe if the unit is in constant use, like a household unit, the bacteria do not go wild. But in a lab test it was found that unbelievable growth of bacteria was going on in there.The discus had been getting ill after WC.
Use of an RO after softening would remove this problem.

Dave

[ronrca]

And you spend $200-300 extra. Kind hard to swallow for beginner having a 75G on fish you dont know if your going to keep alive because its new. Some can afford it, I certainly couldnt! So why not take it one step at a time? All I can do is speak from my experiences and had that been that case, to spend that extra money on RO, I would not have discus. Why not establish if you can use tap, if it is stable? Sounds simple enough to me as well.

[candyl70]

I agree Ron, to start off try using the tap that you have. That is what we did for the first 6+ months. Only after getting some new discus that were in softwater did we break down and buy a unit. 5 stage RO/DI for 179$ Split between the two of us it wasn't bad. We use it for all of our tanks, since we have we have noticed alot more colors in the fish than before. Especially in our 20 Gal communtiy tank. We have Rams, Gourami's and Cories. They love it. (the cories in my discus tank started spawning!! Of course the discus just ate all the eggs)

[ronrca]

I agree Ron, to start off try using the tap that you have. That is what we did for the first 6+ months. Only after getting some new discus that were in softwater did we break down and buy a unit. 5 stage RO/DI for 179$ Split between the two of us it wasn't bad. We use it for all of our tanks, since we have we have noticed alot more colors in the fish than before. Especially in our 20 Gal communtiy tank. We have Rams, Gourami's and Cories. They love it. (the cories in my discus tank started spawning!! Of course the discus just ate all the eggs) :thumbsup:
Wow! $179 for an RO. You should see the prices here locally. For the same system you have, Id have to spend perhaps around $1K (worst case) especially at lfs. Good it worked for you. ;)

[raglanroad]

And you spend $200-300 extra. Kind hard to swallow for beginner having a 75G on fish you dont know if your going to keep alive because its new. Some can afford it, I certainly couldnt! So why not take it one step at a time? All I can do is speak from my experiences and had that been that case, to spend that extra money on RO, I would not have discus. Why not establish if you can use tap, if it is stable? Sounds simple enough to me as well.
RO does not cost $300. less than $70 US plus shipping is possible on auction. People spend that much all the time on gadgets. C'mon, RO is one of the least expensive items - a bag of shrimp is $20. And you can't drink brine shrimp.
I don't think this thread is really about what will entice someone to start up with discus. If they really knew the whole cost over the years...not the subject of the thread anyway.Or we could include the twenty more tanks. We are talking BREEDING discus. that = multiple tanks for a start.

[ronrca]

Im just telling my experiences and yes RO does cost that much here if you dont know better (Home Depot 2 prefilters, membrane, holding tank = $300US is what my parents paid).

Your right Dave! It is better to start with the ideal right away and you cant keep discus if not kept in these ideal conditions. Jeep is just blowing smoke up your behind and as well as many others.

[raglanroad]

I know what Homey costs. and I know they sell for more than $300. My first enquiries told me I would spend $400 to $500 or more...$67 US was the price in the end, including TDS meter and pressure meter. Add shipping , you're looking $40. including faucet. Sell the DI unit for $20 to a marine nut. Not too bad.

[jeep]

Jeep is just blowing smoke up your behind and as well as many others.

Excuse me??? How is that???

[kaceyo]

Hi Jeep,
I had a feeling you'd be back to take care of that statment. But as long as your here, are those Wayne Ng spotteds in your pic? Whatever they are, they're beautiful. A real testament to your discus raising talents, especialy considering your tap water specs, which I'm sure are exactly as stated. Good job!

Kacey

[Kindredspirit]

Jeep is just blowing smoke up your behind and as well as many others.


Hey Ron~

That so did not sound like you at all....and that was uncalled for~



IMO

Marie~:angel:

[raglanroad]

Marie,please name your angelfish. it's only fair. : )

[Tad]

Jeep is just blowing smoke up your behind and as well as many others.

Totally uncalled for IMO :mad: ,
Tad

[Kindredspirit]

Marie,please name your angelfish. it's only fair. : )



Rag!!

I so can not think of one, dayumit! lol!! I think, Rag, i am going to buy a 55gal tank tomorrow....i so cannot believe i said that!!



I have no idea what i am doing...!!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_46.gif


Cali Marie~

[ping]

Brian (jeep) ... Very nice fish :D.

Regards,
Ronny

[Jeff]

Hey AB, Watts you're bisnice name?


I believe his name is Mark Fleishman with a "k" not a "c". He signs M, Marc, Marc Lotus etc. I think his business name is Lotus Aquatics. Why all the confusion I have no idea other than he never states what his name or business really is. Maybe he can clear it up for us.

[Jeff]

Very Nice Brian!!

[Kindredspirit]

I believe his name is Mark Fleishman with a "k" not a "c". He signs M, Marc, Marc Lotus etc. I think his business name is Lotus Aquatics. Why all the confusion I have no idea other than he never states what his name or business really is. Maybe he can clear it up for us.



I wouldn't hold your breath~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_2_20.gif

[jeep]

Hi Jeep,
I had a feeling you'd be back to take care of that statment. But as long as your here, are those Wayne Ng spotteds in your pic? Whatever they are, they're beautiful. A real testament to your discus raising talents, especialy considering your tap water specs, which I'm sure are exactly as stated. Good job!

Kacey

Thank you Kacey, and everyone else!!! Those are from Jack Taylor and Willie Gogh, via Ryan Wong.

If anyone feels that is untrue (;)), feel free to contact any one of them ;) :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Tony_S]

Your right Dave! It is better to start with the ideal right away and you cant keep discus if not kept in these ideal conditions. Jeep is just blowing smoke up your behind and as well as many others.

SWEET JESUS!!! have none of you people ever heard of SARCASM??

Pretty sure Ron was just frustrated with trying to get through to Raglanroad!
HUH???? Ya think????? Maybe??? HUH???!!

Gotta love these AB threads....always good for a laugh...or they make ya wanna puke. One or the other.

MPO...Anyone who tells you that you SHOULDNT or CANT raise discus in plain tapwater is full of ****! Plain and simple...

Tony

[Jason]

Leave it to Tony to tell it like it is, you need to come around more often bud!

Ron wasn't trying to offend anyone! he's a gentleman and would never start petty forum fights. you guys just mis-read him that's all.

[candyl70]

Well,
AB certainly knows how to keep our interest that is for sure.... hmmm... maybe that is why he likes to keep cerain things quiet?? Keep our attention??
He certainly has mine!! Anyhow mpo, i think we should let mark post his info... and when he is done sharing on a certain topic, then we can ask questions... that way he has a chance to get out all the story, facts, etc. without everyone jumping down his throat about proof this proof that ... mark this marc that... what'dya think??? Let him present his evidence his way that way he can get everything out. It seems that he gets interrupted and the thread tends to veer away from the topic and everyone starts talking about whether or not he has a hatchery, etc. So what??? He obviously has some idea of what he is talking about! Does this sound resonable?



Candy

[Kindredspirit]

SWEET JESUS!!! have none of you people ever heard of SARCASM??

I didnt think it sounded like him! Sorry Ron!!!



Gotta love these AB threads....always good for a laugh...or they make ya wanna puke. One or the other.


...and nothing in between most of the time....



MPO...Anyone who tells you that you SHOULDNT or CANT raise discus in plain tapwater is full of ****! Plain and simple...

...that is a good thing, cuz per Cary, that is what I do....ya know, you get help here and you think you have it down, then someone comes along and totally confuses you or makes you paranoid on how you have been doing it.....that is when you find a handful of people that you trust, and common sense prevails from that point on....


Marie~:angel:

[Kindredspirit]

SORRY RON!!!




http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_2_52.gif



Really, tho....I apologize....Talk to me, Man!! lol!


Marie~

[Kindredspirit]

Well,
AB certainly knows how to keep our interest that is for sure.... hmmm... maybe that is why he likes to keep cerain things quiet?? Keep our attention??
He certainly has mine!! Anyhow mpo, i think we should let mark post his info... and when he is done sharing on a certain topic, then we can ask questions... that way he has a chance to get out all the story, facts, etc. without everyone jumping down his throat about proof this proof that ... mark this marc that... what'dya think??? Let him present his evidence his way that way he can get everything out. It seems that he gets interrupted and the thread tends to veer away from the topic and everyone starts talking about whether or not he has a hatchery, etc. So what??? He obviously has some idea of what he is talking about! Does this sound resonable?

Candy



Yes, Candy Dear~


Very reasonable~



http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_4_18.gif


Marie~

[Dave C]

Mark has the option all of us have when we post. He could calmly write down all of his thoughts on a subject & post them when they are complete. If you read the first post on this thread it sounds like he is posting from notes he has already made so there's little need to break it into 3 parts. The only reason I can conceive for doing so is to spark conversation over each part. But if it's impolite for us to jump in and ask questions... and if politeness is something that this thread is meant to elicit then he should reconsider starting threads in this manner...

"Now im going to go real slow

and i hope the mods can keep the slugs from sucking juice"

Let's just say that's not a good start.

[raglanroad]

SWEET JESUS!!! have none of you people ever heard of SARCASM??

Pretty sure Ron was just frustrated with trying to get through to Raglanroad!
HUH???? Ya think????? Maybe??? HUH???!!

Gotta love these AB threads....always good for a laugh...or they make ya wanna puke. One or the other.

MPO...Anyone who tells you that you SHOULDNT or CANT raise discus in plain tapwater is full of ****! Plain and simple...

Tony
Nobody in their right mind would think anyone on the thread said you can't raise discus in plain tapwater. or shouldn't. You make this stuff up yourself?

It's the kind of hype that you spout, that's what the confusion is about.

Find me that place where people say "shouldn't" or "can't". A bogus statement? or just more hype?

No, it's a statement that seems to reflect on the thread contents, but actually may not. So it really means nothing, as it may not apply. But someone reading this*******************************************MPO ...Anyone who tells you that you SHOULDNT or CANT raise discus in plain tapwater is full of ****! Plain and simple...
*********************************************
might think that somebody had said such a thing !
Spin spin.

On the other hand, AB makes some statement about raising fish. It's called various things. Proofs demanded all round.

Now look at th theory that hard water makes discus grow better. Supported by what? Al thinks so? No questioning of it at all?

Food manufacturers and aquaculture centers all feed minerals because that's where fish get their minerals-from food . Yet you DISREGARD that, and supply your own theory with NO EVIDENCE. Maybe the aquaculture business is sadly misled, and should bump up hardness instead of feeding minerals.

With zero evidence, a contrary theory supplants the evidence. Well done guys.
You might be right, you might not be, about the hard water. But the conclusions are drawn on this in a completely UNSCIENTIFIC manner, considering the word is tossed around so much here.

You could at least show where a cull was raised in hard water, with calcium poor foods, yet grew like a weed. And a cull that was in soft water, plenty of good calcium food, yet was a not as good as the other.
No way-we'll just say it is the way we say it is. Much better, right?

In all, I am interested in the theory that hard water helps growth. Al also contributed to my thread questioning this. He was interested in getting EVIDENCE- because there is none here yet.

Dave

[Elcid]

In my previous life as a discus hobbiest I raised all my discus in tapwater and killed them all in tapwater too! I used to have 14 tanks so it was not just a few discus! Some friends of mine had the same problem too but at different times.

THE PROBLEM WITH TAPWATER IS THAT YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT'S COMING DOWN THE TAP, YOU CAN BET THAT UR WATER AUTHORITY WILL DO SOMETHING SOONER OR LATER THAT WILL KILL YOUR FISH.

just my 2 cents,
Sandeep

[Kindredspirit]

oh dear.....http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_5_16.gif

[Kindredspirit]

In my previous life as a discus hobbiest I raised all my discus in tapwater and killed them all in tapwater too! I used to have 14 tanks so it was not just a few discus! Some friends of mine had the same problem too but at different times.

THE PROBLEM WITH TAPWATER IS THAT YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT'S COMING DOWN THE TAP, YOU CAN BET THAT UR WATER AUTHORITY WILL DO SOMETHING SOONER OR LATER THAT WILL KILL YOUR FISH.

just my 2 cents,
Sandeep


Sandeep...how common is that tho?? *******.....is that what happen to you?


Marie~:confused:

[Kindredspirit]

Mark has the option all of us have when we post. He could calmly write down all of his thoughts on a subject & post them when they are complete. If you read the first post on this thread it sounds like he is posting from notes he has already made so there's little need to break it into 3 parts. The only reason I can conceive for doing so is to spark conversation over each part. But if it's impolite for us to jump in and ask questions... and if politeness is something that this thread is meant to elicit then he should reconsider starting threads in this manner...

"Now im going to go real slow

and i hope the mods can keep the slugs from sucking juice"

Let's just say that's not a good start.



When I read that, Mark, it is like you straight up think people here are not up to your level...You tend to talk down ....at times....

...not a good way to start any topic~



Marie~:angel:

[Elcid]

I wish I could offer you hope that it will only happen once in 10 years!, Here in NJ, the probability is about once a year since that's about the frequency that local hobbiest found their fish on tapwater really sick! Many lost 100s of fish. Call your water authrority and find out how often they clean their pipes and what chemicals they use. Make sure they call you and tell you before you do that waterchange!

Goodluck!
Sandeep

[Jason]

water plants add some really nasty stuff that can kill your fish. just to name a few
caustic soda
aluminum sulphates
flouride(yeah good for our teeth, bad for fish)

If I was on a well or lake source I would definately use that water over tap water, no matter what the parameters are.

[Kindredspirit]

Nobody in their right mind would think anyone on the thread said you can't raise discus in plain tapwater. or shouldn't. You make this stuff up yourself?

It's the kind of hype that you spout, that's what the confusion is about.

Find me that place where people say "shouldn't" or "can't". A bogus statement? or just more hype?

No, it's a statement that seems to reflect on the thread contents, but actually may not. So it really means nothing, as it may not apply. But someone reading this*******************************************MPO ...Anyone who tells you that you SHOULDNT or CANT raise discus in plain tapwater is full of ****! Plain and simple...
*********************************************
might think that somebody had said such a thing !
Spin spin.
Dave

Dave



oh dearhttp://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_5_16.gif

[Kindredspirit]

Make sure they call you and tell you before you do that waterchange!

Goodluck!
Sandeep


O.k.A.Y....I am sure I will be on their speed dial!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_13_1.gif



Thanks, Sandeep ( i think)

Marie~

[Elcid]

Sorry for not advising you appropriately.....If you want to keep your fish for a very long time always carbon filter ur tapwater and don't forget to change that cartridge once every couple of months! They are not that expensive, you can find them in your local Home Depot!

[Elcid]

water plants add some really nasty stuff that can kill your fish. just to name a few
caustic soda
aluminum sulphates
flouride(yeah good for our teeth, bad for fish)

If I was on a well or lake source I would definately use that water over tap water, no matter what the parameters are.

Not a bad start, add Bromides to the list!

[Dave C]

Nobody in their right mind would think anyone on the thread said you can't raise discus in plain tapwater. or shouldn't...

Find me that place where people say "shouldn't" or "can't". A bogus statement? or just more hype?

Perhaps it's a matter of interpretation. Mark didn't come out and state the words "you should not raise discus in tap water" but how else could you interpret these statements?

"DISCUS DO NOT DO ALL THAT WELL IN HARD WATER"

"anybody who keeps discus fish seriously will tell u that hi ph and hi TDS spells infertile spawns and lack luster color..do yourself a favor and get a RO unit or water softner"

"i see where u guys were told that harding your water is a good thing... nope"

"can u handle this Ron SOFT WATER IS ALWAYS BEST for every discus fish ever bred i dont like hard water at all"

And if you examine how Mark treats opposing opinions Tony's reaction is pretty damned sound & expected...

"more old wives tales"

"concerning what people here think i have found a tremendous amount of mis info at this forum"

"u see... many so called facts at this forum are SIMPLY not real facts at all"


Now look at th theory that hard water makes discus grow better. Supported by what? Al thinks so? No questioning of it at all?

Food manufacturers and aquaculture centers all feed minerals because that's where fish get their minerals-from food . Yet you DISREGARD that, and supply your own theory with NO EVIDENCE.

With zero evidence, a contrary theory supplants the evidence. Well done guys.

The evidence I offer is my experience. I have had some success breeding Discus but not much by the standards of many posters on this board. But I have had pretty reasonable experience growing out fry. It got to the point where it was financially more sound for me to just buy fry at 1/2" and grow them out rather then worrying about breeding and for awhile I did that. I would buy 200 fry from Cary and raise them myself, in tap water with a pH of 7.5 and conductivity of 250ms. Initially I used RO water with tap with much lower conductivity... basically the water I was using for breeding. The growth was brutal and there were many problems with uneven growth. I was told by many that my water was too soft so I went to straight tap and had much better results. I never did a side by side comparison but from the evidence put forth by Mark my experience is as soundly based as any he has described. If you reread this entire thread I believe you'll see where jeep had similar experiences with soft & hard water.

btw, the biggest weakness, in my opinion, in mark's theory is that salt is no big deal in the environment of a Discus. On the one hand he says it doesn't matter, on the other he says he can control the salt levels with his water softener. But if the purpose of the softener is to reduce hardness, and that is done by using salt, then reducing the salinity of the water will also reduce the effectiveness of the softener. There are literally reams of information on this site & the net about how a constant, elevated level of salt in a Discus tank is not a good thing. I would not recommend anyone consider using water from a water softener for your Discus tank. By all means get an RO unit, but not a softener.

[Elcid]

What Could be in ur tap water:

Microorganisms

Contaminant MCLG1
(mg/L)2 MCL or TT1
(mg/L)2 Potential Health Effects from Ingestion of Water Sources of Contaminant in Drinking Water
Cryptosporidium (pdf file) zero
TT 3
Gastrointestinal illness (e.g., diarrhea, vomiting, cramps)
Human and fecal animal waste

Giardia lamblia zero
TT3
Gastrointestinal illness (e.g., diarrhea, vomiting, cramps)
Human and animal fecal waste

Heterotrophic plate count n/a
TT3
HPC has no health effects; it is an analytic method used to measure the variety of bacteria that are common in water. The lower the concentration of bacteria in drinking water, the better maintained the water system is.
HPC measures a range of bacteria that are naturally present in the environment

Legionella zero
TT3
Legionnaire's Disease, a type of pneumonia
Found naturally in water; multiplies in heating systems

Total Coliforms (including fecal coliform and E. Coli) zero
5.0%4
Not a health threat in itself; it is used to indicate whether other potentially harmful bacteria may be present5
Coliforms are naturally present in the environment; as well as feces; fecal coliforms and E. coli only come from human and animal fecal waste.

Turbidity n/a
TT3
Turbidity is a measure of the cloudiness of water. It is used to indicate water quality and filtration effectiveness (e.g., whether disease-causing organisms are present). Higher turbidity levels are often associated with higher levels of disease-causing microorganisms such as viruses, parasites and some bacteria. These organisms can cause symptoms such as nausea, cramps, diarrhea, and associated headaches.
Soil runoff

Viruses (enteric) zero
TT3
Gastrointestinal illness (e.g., diarrhea, vomiting, cramps)
Human and animal fecal waste


Disinfection Byproducts

Contaminant MCLG1
(mg/L)2 MCL or TT1
(mg/L)2 Potential Health Effects from Ingestion of Water Sources of Contaminant in Drinking Water
Bromate zero
0.010
Increased risk of cancer
Byproduct of drinking water disinfection

Chlorite 0.8
1.0
Anemia; infants & young children: nervous system effects
Byproduct of drinking water disinfection

Haloacetic acids (HAA5) n/a6
0.060
Increased risk of cancer
Byproduct of drinking water disinfection

Total Trihalomethanes (TTHMs) none7
----------
n/a6
0.10
----------
0.080
Liver, kidney or central nervous system problems; increased risk of cancer
Byproduct of drinking water disinfection


Disinfectants

Contaminant MRDLG1
(mg/L)2 MRDL1
(mg/L)2 Potential Health Effects from Ingestion of Water Sources of Contaminant in Drinking Water
Chloramines (as Cl2) MRDLG=41
MRDL=4.01
Eye/nose irritation; stomach discomfort, anemia
Water additive used to control microbes

Chlorine (as Cl2) MRDLG=41
MRDL=4.01
Eye/nose irritation; stomach discomfort
Water additive used to control microbes

Chlorine dioxide (as ClO2) MRDLG=0.81
MRDL=0.81
Anemia; infants & young children: nervous system effects
Water additive used to control microbes


Inorganic Chemicals

Contaminant MCLG1
(mg/L)2 MCL or TT1
(mg/L)2 Potential Health Effects from Ingestion of Water Sources of Contaminant in Drinking Water
Antimony 0.006
0.006
Increase in blood cholesterol; decrease in blood sugar
Discharge from petroleum refineries; fire retardants; ceramics; electronics; solder

Arsenic 07
0.010
as of 01/23/06 Skin damage or problems with circulatory systems, and may have increased risk of getting cancer
Erosion of natural deposits; runoff from orchards, runoff from glass & electronicsproduction wastes

Asbestos
(fiber >10 micrometers) 7 million fibers per liter
7 MFL
Increased risk of developing benign intestinal polyps
Decay of asbestos cement in water mains; erosion of natural deposits

Barium 2
2
Increase in blood pressure
Discharge of drilling wastes; discharge from metal refineries; erosion of natural deposits

Beryllium 0.004
0.004
Intestinal lesions
Discharge from metal refineries and coal-burning factories; discharge from electrical, aerospace, and defense industries

Cadmium 0.005
0.005
Kidney damage
Corrosion of galvanized pipes; erosion of natural deposits; discharge from metal refineries; runoff from waste batteries and paints

Chromium (total) 0.1
0.1
Allergic dermatitis
Discharge from steel and pulp mills; erosion of natural deposits

Copper 1.3
TT8;
Action Level=1.3
Short term exposure: Gastrointestinal distress

Long term exposure: Liver or kidney damage

People with Wilson's Disease should consult their personal doctor if the amount of copper in their water exceeds the action level
Corrosion of household plumbing systems; erosion of natural deposits

Cyanide (as free cyanide) 0.2
0.2
Nerve damage or thyroid problems
Discharge from steel/metal factories; discharge from plastic and fertilizer factories

Fluoride 4.0
4.0
Bone disease (pain and tenderness of the bones); Children may get mottled teeth
Water additive which promotes strong teeth; erosion of natural deposits; discharge from fertilizer and aluminum factories

Lead zero
TT8;
Action Level=0.015
Infants and children: Delays in physical or mental development; children could show slight deficits in attention span and learning abilities

Adults: Kidney problems; high blood pressure
Corrosion of household plumbing systems; erosion of natural deposits

Mercury (inorganic) 0.002
0.002
Kidney damage
Erosion of natural deposits; discharge from refineries and factories; runoff from landfills and croplands

Nitrate (measured as Nitrogen) 10
10
Infants below the age of six months who drink water containing nitrate in excess of the MCL could become seriously ill and, if untreated, may die. Symptoms include shortness of breath and blue-baby syndrome.
Runoff from fertilizer use; leaching from septic tanks, sewage; erosion of natural deposits

Nitrite (measured as Nitrogen) 1
1
Infants below the age of six months who drink water containing nitrite in excess of the MCL could become seriously ill and, if untreated, may die. Symptoms include shortness of breath and blue-baby syndrome.
Runoff from fertilizer use; leaching from septic tanks, sewage; erosion of natural deposits

Selenium 0.05
0.05
Hair or fingernail loss; numbness in fingers or toes; circulatory problems
Discharge from petroleum refineries; erosion of natural deposits; discharge from mines

Thallium 0.0005
0.002
Hair loss; changes in blood; kidney, intestine, or liver problems
Leaching from ore-processing sites; discharge from electronics, glass, and drug factories


Organic Chemicals
Contaminant MCLG1
(mg/L)2 MCL or TT1
(mg/L)2 Potential Health Effects from Ingestion of Water Sources of Contaminant in Drinking Water
Acrylamide zero
TT9
Nervous system or blood problems; increased risk of cancer
Added to water during sewage/wastewater treatment

Alachlor zero
0.002
Eye, liver, kidney or spleen problems; anemia; increased risk of cancer
Runoff from herbicide used on row crops

Atrazine 0.003
0.003
Cardiovascular system or reproductive problems
Runoff from herbicide used on row crops

Benzene zero
0.005
Anemia; decrease in blood platelets; increased risk of cancer
Discharge from factories; leaching from gas storage tanks and landfills

Benzo(a)pyrene (PAHs) zero
0.0002
Reproductive difficulties; increased risk of cancer
Leaching from linings of water storage tanks and distribution lines

Carbofuran 0.04
0.04
Problems with blood, nervous system, or reproductive system
Leaching of soil fumigant used on rice and alfalfa

Carbon
tetrachloride zero
0.005
Liver problems; increased risk of cancer
Discharge from chemical plants and other industrial activities

Chlordane zero
0.002
Liver or nervous system problems; increased risk of cancer
Residue of banned termiticide

Chlorobenzene 0.1
0.1
Liver or kidney problems
Discharge from chemical and agricultural chemical factories

2,4-D 0.07
0.07
Kidney, liver, or adrenal gland problems
Runoff from herbicide used on row crops

Dalapon 0.2
0.2
Minor kidney changes
Runoff from herbicide used on rights of way

1,2-Dibromo-3-chloropropane (DBCP) zero
0.0002
Reproductive difficulties; increased risk of cancer
Runoff/leaching from soil fumigant used on soybeans, cotton, pineapples, and orchards

o-Dichlorobenzene 0.6
0.6
Liver, kidney, or circulatory system problems
Discharge from industrial chemical factories

p-Dichlorobenzene 0.075
0.075
Anemia; liver, kidney or spleen damage; changes in blood
Discharge from industrial chemical factories

1,2-Dichloroethane zero
0.005
Increased risk of cancer
Discharge from industrial chemical factories

1,1-Dichloroethylene 0.007
0.007
Liver problems
Discharge from industrial chemical factories

cis-1,2-Dichloroethylene 0.07
0.07
Liver problems
Discharge from industrial chemical factories

trans-1,2-Dichloroethylene 0.1
0.1
Liver problems
Discharge from industrial chemical factories

Dichloromethane zero
0.005
Liver problems; increased risk of cancer
Discharge from drug and chemical factories

1,2-Dichloropropane zero
0.005
Increased risk of cancer
Discharge from industrial chemical factories

Di(2-ethylhexyl) adipate 0.4
0.4
Weight loss, liver problems, or possible reproductive difficulties.
Discharge from chemical factories

Di(2-ethylhexyl) phthalate zero
0.006
Reproductive difficulties; liver problems; increased risk of cancer
Discharge from rubber and chemical factories

Dinoseb 0.007
0.007
Reproductive difficulties
Runoff from herbicide used on soybeans and vegetables

Dioxin (2,3,7,8-TCDD) zero
0.00000003
Reproductive difficulties; increased risk of cancer
Emissions from waste incineration and other combustion; discharge from chemical factories

Diquat 0.02
0.02
Cataracts
Runoff from herbicide use

Endothall 0.1
0.1
Stomach and intestinal problems
Runoff from herbicide use

Endrin 0.002
0.002
Liver problems
Residue of banned insecticide

Epichlorohydrin zero
TT9
Increased cancer risk, and over a long period of time, stomach problems
Discharge from industrial chemical factories; an impurity of some water treatment chemicals

Ethylbenzene 0.7
0.7
Liver or kidneys problems
Discharge from petroleum refineries

Ethylene dibromide zero
0.00005
Problems with liver, stomach, reproductive system, or kidneys; increased risk of cancer
Discharge from petroleum refineries

Glyphosate 0.7
0.7
Kidney problems; reproductive difficulties
Runoff from herbicide use

Heptachlor zero
0.0004
Liver damage; increased risk of cancer
Residue of banned termiticide

Heptachlor epoxide zero
0.0002
Liver damage; increased risk of cancer
Breakdown of heptachlor

Hexachlorobenzene zero
0.001
Liver or kidney problems; reproductive difficulties; increased risk of cancer
Discharge from metal refineries and agricultural chemical factories

Hexachlorocyclopentadiene 0.05
0.05
Kidney or stomach problems
Discharge from chemical factories

Lindane 0.0002
0.0002
Liver or kidney problems
Runoff/leaching from insecticide used on cattle, lumber, gardens

Methoxychlor 0.04
0.04
Reproductive difficulties
Runoff/leaching from insecticide used on fruits, vegetables, alfalfa, livestock

Oxamyl (Vydate) 0.2
0.2
Slight nervous system effects
Runoff/leaching from insecticide used on apples, potatoes, and tomatoes

Polychlorinated
biphenyls (PCBs) zero
0.0005
Skin changes; thymus gland problems; immune deficiencies; reproductive or nervous system difficulties; increased risk of cancer
Runoff from landfills; discharge of waste chemicals

Pentachlorophenol zero
0.001
Liver or kidney problems; increased cancer risk
Discharge from wood preserving factories

Picloram 0.5
0.5
Liver problems
Herbicide runoff

Simazine 0.004
0.004
Problems with blood
Herbicide runoff

Styrene 0.1
0.1
Liver, kidney, or circulatory system problems
Discharge from rubber and plastic factories; leaching from landfills

Tetrachloroethylene zero
0.005
Liver problems; increased risk of cancer
Discharge from factories and dry cleaners

Toluene 1
1
Nervous system, kidney, or liver problems
Discharge from petroleum factories

Toxaphene zero
0.003
Kidney, liver, or thyroid problems; increased risk of cancer
Runoff/leaching from insecticide used on cotton and cattle

2,4,5-TP (Silvex) 0.05
0.05
Liver problems
Residue of banned herbicide

1,2,4-Trichlorobenzene 0.07
0.07
Changes in adrenal glands
Discharge from textile finishing factories

1,1,1-Trichloroethane 0.20
0.2
Liver, nervous system, or circulatory problems
Discharge from metal degreasing sites and other factories

1,1,2-Trichloroethane 0.003
0.005
Liver, kidney, or immune system problems
Discharge from industrial chemical factories

Trichloroethylene zero
0.005
Liver problems; increased risk of cancer
Discharge from metal degreasing sites and other factories

Vinyl chloride zero
0.002
Increased risk of cancer
Leaching from PVC pipes; discharge from plastic factories

Xylenes (total) 10
10
Nervous system damage
Discharge from petroleum factories; discharge from chemical factories


Radionuclides
Contaminant MCLG1
(mg/L)2 MCL or TT1
(mg/L)2 Potential Health Effects from Ingestion of Water Sources of Contaminant in Drinking Water
Alpha particles none7
----------
zero
15 picocuries per Liter (pCi/L)
Increased risk of cancer
Erosion of natural deposits of certain minerals that are radioactive and may emit a form of radiation known as alpha radiation

Beta particles and photon emitters none7
----------
zero
4 millirems per year
Increased risk of cancer
Decay of natural and man-made deposits of

certain minerals that are radioactive and may emit forms of radiation known as photons and beta radiation

Radium 226 and Radium 228 (combined) none7
----------
zero
5 pCi/L
Increased risk of cancer
Erosion of natural deposits

Uranium zero
30 ug/L
as of 12/08/03
Increased risk of cancer, kidney toxicity Erosion of natural deposits


Notes
1 Definitions:
Maximum Contaminant Level (MCL) - The highest level of a contaminant that is allowed in drinking water. MCLs are set as close to MCLGs as feasible using the best available treatment technology and taking cost into consideration. MCLs are enforceable standards.
Maximum Contaminant Level Goal (MCLG) - The level of a contaminant in drinking water below which there is no known or expected risk to health. MCLGs allow for a margin of safety and are non-enforceable public health goals.
Maximum Residual Disinfectant Level (MRDL) - The highest level of a disinfectant allowed in drinking water. There is convincing evidence that addition of a disinfectant is necessary for control of microbial contaminants.
Maximum Residual Disinfectant Level Goal (MRDLG) - The level of a drinking water disinfectant below which there is no known or expected risk to health. MRDLGs do not reflect the benefits of the use of disinfectants to control microbial contaminants.
Treatment Technique - A required process intended to reduce the level of a contaminant in drinking water.

2 Units are in milligrams per liter (mg/L) unless otherwise noted. Milligrams per liter are equivalent to parts per million.

3 EPA's surface water treatment rules require systems using surface water or ground water under the direct influence of surface water to (1) disinfect their water, and (2) filter their water or meet criteria for avoiding filtration so that the following contaminants are controlled at the following levels:

Cryptosporidium: (as of1/1/02 for systems serving >10,000 and 1/14/05 for systems serving <10,000) 99% removal.
Giardia lamblia: 99.9% removal/inactivation
Viruses: 99.99% removal/inactivation
Legionella: No limit, but EPA believes that if Giardia and viruses are removed/inactivated, Legionella will also be controlled.
Turbidity: At no time can turbidity (cloudiness of water) go above 5 nephelolometric turbidity units (NTU); systems that filter must ensure that the turbidity go no higher than 1 NTU (0.5 NTU for conventional or direct filtration) in at least 95% of the daily samples in any month. As of January 1, 2002, turbidity may never exceed 1 NTU, and must not exceed 0.3 NTU in 95% of daily samples in any month.
HPC: No more than 500 bacterial colonies per milliliter.
Long Term 1 Enhanced Surface Water Treatment (Effective Date: January 14, 2005); Surface water systems or (GWUDI) systems serving fewer than 10,000 people must comply with the applicable Long Term 1 Enhanced Surface Water Treatment Rule provisions (e.g. turbidity standards, individual filter monitoring, Cryptosporidium removal requirements, updated watershed control requirements for unfiltered systems).
Filter Backwash Recycling; The Filter Backwash Recycling Rule requires systems that recycle to return specific recycle flows through all processes of the system's existing conventional or direct filtration system or at an alternate location approved by the state.

4 more than 5.0% samples total coliform-positive in a month. (For water systems that collect fewer than 40 routine samples per month, no more than one sample can be total coliform-positive per month.) Every sample that has total coliform must be analyzed for either fecal coliforms or E. coli if two consecutive TC-positive samples, and one is also positive for E.coli fecal coliforms, system has an acute MCL violation.

5 Fecal coliform and E. coli are bacteria whose presence indicates that the water may be contaminated with human or animal wastes. Disease-causing microbes (pathogens) in these wastes can cause diarrhea, cramps, nausea, headaches, or other symptoms. These pathogens may pose a special health risk for infants, young children, and people with severely compromised immune systems.

6 Although there is no collective MCLG for this contaminant group, there are individual MCLGs for some of the individual contaminants:

Trihalomethanes: bromodichloromethane (zero); bromoform (zero); dibromochloromethane (0.06 mg/L). Chloroform is regulated with this group but has no MCLG.
Haloacetic acids: dichloroacetic acid (zero); trichloroacetic acid (0.3 mg/L). Monochloroacetic acid, bromoacetic acid, and dibromoacetic acid are regulated with this group but have no MCLGs.
7 MCLGs were not established before the 1986 Amendments to the Safe Drinking Water Act. Therefore, there is no MCLG for this contaminant.

8 Lead and copper are regulated by a Treatment Technique that requires systems to control the corrosiveness of their water. If more than 10% of tap water samples exceed the action level, water systems must take additional steps. For copper, the action level is 1.3 mg/L, and for lead is 0.015 mg/L.

9 Each water system must certify, in writing, to the state (using third-party or manufacturer's certification) that when acrylamide and epichlorohydrin are used in drinking water systems, the combination (or product) of dose and monomer level does not exceed the levels specified, as follows:

Acrylamide = 0.05% dosed at 1 mg/L (or equivalent)
Epichlorohydrin = 0.01% dosed at 20 mg/L (or equivalent)

[ronrca]

SWEET JESUS!!! have none of you people ever heard of SARCASM??

Pretty sure Ron was just frustrated with trying to get through to Raglanroad!
HUH???? Ya think????? Maybe??? HUH???!!


Thank you Tony! Glad someone understood. ;) Yes, I did not intend to insult Jeep at all and Im sorry if thats how it was read. :o I do use sarcasm sometimes. I am glad that he posted those pics and shared his experiences.


Nobody in their right mind would think anyone on the thread said you can't raise discus in plain tapwater. or shouldn't. You make this stuff up yourself?

It's the kind of hype that you spout, that's what the confusion is about.

Find me that place where people say "shouldn't" or "can't". A bogus statement? or just more hype?

Again Dave, your right! A few statements from the author of the thread which naturally set the tone.

DISCUS DO NOT DO ALL THAT WELL IN HARD WATER


i see where u guys were told that harding your water is a good thing

nope


i have found a tremendous amount of mis info at this forum

mostly opinions about such and such topics that dont compute with TRUE HANDS ON EXPERIENCE


u see...
many so called facts at this forum are SIMPLY not real facts at all


the reason there are so few prosperous breeder in the US
is because they use tap water ..ok..now freak out

Elcid, thanks for that........lengthy post. lol! Im glad that there are regulations in place for drinking water that we get from tap. I sure hope you dont drink tap water however. I wonder who regulations the off flow into the amazon though?

Anyways, I think we killed this topic since we are starting to discuss who said this and what is that interpretation, etc.

[Dave C]

I must be dodging bullets left & right. During my entire experience with my fish they have never suffered from my use of untreated tapwater. There has been a day here & there where my water was tinged brown and I caught that at the holding tank and emptied it and waited until it cleared, but never has my water had an adverse effect on my fish. I don't discount your warning, but I think it depends on where you live. Of course the fact that it hasn't happened to me doesn't mean it can't or won't... just that it has never happened.

[Elcid]

Dave:

Please let us know where you live?, what's the source of ur tapwater?, how long u have been raising ur discus in tapwater and what you do with ur tapwater before adding it to your tank? Maybe we can be neighbours ;)

Tapwater can be excellent or not that great, it depends on where u live, how intellegent ur water management ppl are and a variety of other factors.

I'm sure you love you discus very much, i've read some of your posts on your website. You are quite the practical kind of hobbiest. I just want to point out though that ur experience is not the only one and others have not been so lucky! That's why it's important for each individual to evaluate their own water quality and make decisions appropriately!

take care,
Sandeep

[raglanroad]

DaveC,
Marc seems to give empahatic statements, no doubt. But there are others who do not buy into forum theories so completely as most. I am one. I have no idea about how to reduce the salt yet get ion exchange. Yet on the whole, the reaction to AB is so overboard, it's out of whack.

Can more , opposing hype help get to the bottom of it, smoke or not? : )

I have an interest in finding out what is true here, but when the hype comes , I have to look at it as just that.

The way Tony said Ron was trying to get thru to me, it sounds like the truth just couldn't sink in. If Tony has the truth, let's hear some of his evidence. Al did not have enough evidence, and he plainly said so.

It is obvious that discus can grow in various types of water. Can we get around the hype. For better growth in hard water: Scientific proof please, just like demanded of AB. The hard water/good and soft water/not so good statements are made much more frequently than AB type of statement. But just as strongly. The CUMULATIVE effect of this is that it becomes "forum truth".

Dave

[Dave C]

Sandeep, I live in Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. I have been raising Discus in tapwater for almost 6 years. I age tapwater in a holding tank for 24 hours where it is heated, aereated & circulated. I add nothing to my water as the city does not currently use Chloramine.

Of course my experience is not the only valid one, neither is yours... that was my point. btw, I drink my tapwater, always have, hopefully always will. I assume if it's good enough for me to drink it's ok for the fish. That might be a simplistic & incorrect way of thinking but it has worked for me. It's also one of the ways I've caught tinted water before it hits my tank.

[raglanroad]

Dave:

Please let us know where you live?, what's the source of ur tapwater?, how long u have been raising ur discus in tapwater and what you do with ur tapwater before adding it to your tank? Maybe we can be neighbours ;)

Tapwater can be excellent or not that great, it depends on where u live, how intellegent ur water management ppl are and a variety of other factors.

I'm sure you love you discus very much, i've read some of your posts on your website. You are quite the practical kind of hobbiest. I just want to point out though that ur experience is not the only one and others have not been so lucky! That's why it's important for each individual to evaluate their own water quality and make decisions appropriately!

take care,
Sandeep
This is the kind of stuff we need. Thanks Sandeep and Jason.

DaveC, did you hear about Walkerton? Not just discus, but people died. This is in Canada. We have standards as good or better than other places. Walkerton was not just about nepotism and drunkenness. It was about the LACK of controls in place.

And even when controls are working, just ask yourself how often water mains work is done in your area. How often weather disturbances happen. How often a heat wave forces the water co. to use huge chlorine additions to kill the bacterial bloom in the resevoirs. So people escape for twenty years. OK. Some do not last a year before wipe out. I think a decision on this might entail "how important is your stock to you"-if they are just fish as an ornament, or if your livelihood is at stake.
The risk you run can be examined by the worst case scenario, and the likelihood of worst case. It is not all that unlikely, so....good dodging to those who trust.
A tally of those wiped out, just those on Simply, would start with Sandeep and a major discus person that I know of, (the other one I mentioned is not on simply). I'm sure there are more, and some still may not have recognized why their fish died.
Dave.

[Dave C]

raglanroad, I disagree about the reaction to Mark's posts, but disagreement is ok. In the years I've been posting on forums like this it's quite common to see someone burst onto the scene with answers to everyone's woes. They are usually unsupported answers and also usually they are diametrically opposed to what has been determined to be the consensus of the forum readers. Not only does Mark not support his statements with evidence, he doesn't even support the backbone of his statements... that he has been breeding Discus for 40+ years... that he houses his Discus in a 20,000 ft facility. I haven't even seen a picture of a single tank of his with Discus swimming about. So it's natural to ask for evidence. If you want to find similar evidence about the source of my experiences I can point you to my website or email you additional photos showing more detail then is available on my site. You can disagree with my opinions but the source of my opinions is not in dispute. The same cannot be said for Mark... there is even disagreement over his name for God's sake.

I too don't follow the forum traditions and I post my opinions all the time. The main area of disagreement is with the frequency of w/c. But I don't state that those that change water daily are wrong. I simply offer my methods as an alternative... some follow it, some don't. There are no right & wrong answers... there are methods that work and those that don't and what works for me may not work for you & vice versa. I don't see that kind of give & take in Mark's posts... he's always right, with or without evidence & the rest of us are always wrong, regardless of our experiences. He goes so far as to mock our experiences & methods.

If you have an interest in finding out what is true then test the theories put forth and find your own truth. No one here can tell you what will work for you, no matter how much they think they can. You have to experiment and find out for yourself. No scientific study will yield a method or theory that will work for everyone all the time. And we're just hobbyists, not scientists so to hold up all conversation until someone can provide scientific evidence to support their experiences will do nothing other then bring all discussion to a halt. I don't expect Mark to provide scientific evidence... but some evidence that his fish/facility etc. actually exists would be a good starting point.

btw, Tony does have the truth. So do I. So do you & Mark. The truth is that the way we do things is working for us. That's all the truth I need. But for some of us that's not enough, we require that everyone believe in our truth, and only our truth.

[raglanroad]

Perhaps it's a matter of interpretation. Mark didn't come out and state the words "you should not raise discus in tap water" but how else could you interpret these statements?

"DISCUS DO NOT DO ALL THAT WELL IN HARD WATER"

"anybody who keeps discus fish seriously will tell u that hi ph and hi TDS spells infertile spawns and lack luster color..do yourself a favor and get a RO unit or water softner"

"i see where u guys were told that harding your water is a good thing... nope"

"can u handle this Ron SOFT WATER IS ALWAYS BEST for every discus fish ever bred i dont like hard water at all"

And if you examine how Mark treats opposing opinions Tony's reaction is pretty damned sound & expected...

"more old wives tales"

"concerning what people here think i have found a tremendous amount of mis info at this forum"

"u see... many so called facts at this forum are SIMPLY not real facts at all"

I have noticed this also, I agree with the last 2 statements. Not just Simply, but most forums. How could it not be true? You know it, Dave : )

The evidence I offer is my experience. I have had some success breeding Discus but not much by the standards of many posters on this board. But I have had pretty reasonable experience growing out fry. It got to the point where it was financially more sound for me to just buy fry at 1/2" and grow them out rather then worrying about breeding and for awhile I did that. I would buy 200 fry from Cary and raise them myself, in tap water with a pH of 7.5 and conductivity of 250ms. Initially I used RO water with tap with much lower conductivity... basically the water I was using for breeding. The growth was brutal and there were many problems with uneven growth. I was told by many that my water was too soft so I went to straight tap and had much better results. I never did a side by side comparison but from the evidence put forth by Mark my experience is as soundly based as any he has described. If you reread this entire thread I believe you'll see where jeep had similar experiences with soft & hard water.

Dave, you previously stated that you had difficulty with the altering of your water.How can you give reasonable comparison between a system which you had difficulty operating, and one which you do not have difficulty operating? Of course the system you operate better will in most cases produce better for you.
I think this is perhaps the crux of the problem in comparison and understanding the results.
People try the Mary Sweeney thing, and do not do so well sometimes. Adding alkalinity is not the same as changing water. One cannot judge the system using faulty methods such as combatting waste with alkalinity additions. So most who tried soft water were influenced to do the alkalinity thing . Min 3 degrees alkalinity. This is a problem, trying to substitute chemistry for water changes.

btw, the biggest weakness, in my opinion, in mark's theory is that salt is no big deal in the environment of a Discus. On the one hand he says it doesn't matter, on the other he says he can control the salt levels with his water softener. But if the purpose of the softener is to reduce hardness, and that is done by using salt, then reducing the salinity of the water will also reduce the effectiveness of the softener. There are literally reams of information on this site & the net about how a constant, elevated level of salt in a Discus tank is not a good thing. I would not recommend anyone consider using water from a water softener for your Discus tank. By all means get an RO unit, but not a softener.The use of a softener pre-RO is good for the life of the membrane. Without an RO after it, leaves some room for problems.


Dave

[Elcid]

Hi Dave:

You do more with ur water before adding it to your tanks than many. When you change water less frequently you add more filtration, do a better job cleaning up ur tank. Keeping, raising and breeding discus is not a one dimensional persuit. Many factors come into play but lazyness is never one of them!

Take care and thanks for the straight up answer about where u live and water pre-treatment that you do! I hope people who use straight up tap water will follow ur method!

take care,
Sandeep

[Jeff]

I have always raised my discus in good old Los Angeles Tap water with out any problems. I like to read Mark's posts the same as I enjoy an episode of the Simpsons. I watch and laugh. I surly don't take seriously. If you want to that is your business. Good Luck!!

For me to believe what anyone is saying I first want to see they have done it themselves. It's very convenient to say this is how to do it. I can do that also. But there is NO PROOF from this guy. Where is his hatchery? Where are the pairs? Pics? OK if he doesn't want pics posted allow someone to verify it. It's all to convenient to just keep talking. The proof is in the documentation. And it is all lacking.

It's just entertainment. Remember the Snake Oil salesmen of the early 1900s? Some people would swear it worked. Don't be coned.

Mark Fleishmen is a good entertainer.

[american breeder]

Dave
i did i have water softeners that pre treat the water before the water is RO,d or distilled
and useing water straight from the softner is fine too

all this fuss over water wow

i have never been at a internet site such as this..and i did not realise
the intentions and intent of the people here

just my lack of experience with this type of group..regs i mean..people read much into things said, they go off on large tangents,, i see it is a debate type medium and debate type tactics are used..i showed this to a professional person ..he commented that if i go to other chat rooms , message boards i will find similar antics going on..in fact we did, and it read very similar..somebody says something, some body doesnt like,, whamo the flame is lit and away everyone goes..trying as hard as they can to win..

i have already won..
all this prove this AB prove that AB, and if i dont want to prove anything to anyone
then what, im not for real .....GROW UP
im just not going to be goaded by this childish stuff
someone wants to visit and see nice fish, and do mature buisness , then they contact me and proceed with my protocol, thats how i do buisness..i deal with friends for the most part..all my clients for the most part i have been with for years,, they know how to properly engage me..they dont say AB prove this to me..they say AB i need some fish..can i come by and see the latest..thats is proper way, this i come to verify is simply a bunch of BS and i wont partake in it at all.
u want to see fish and buy..u call and talk with me if i feel comfortable and i feel u are a serious buyer i make nice appointment with u
thats it

my minimum purchase is 3000USD
for folks at simply i reduced it to 1500USD
kiddies..im serious


people defend points that defy reason..
like this tap water thing

any professional breeder
will tell u simply that discus dont like hard water and that the hatch rate is far better in soft water..my life long experience shows that to me..now if its proof your after

do the work required
and see for yourself..
thats the only proof i ever require from anyone

so if Ron and the boys want to raise there fish in hard water etc..fine i dont care one little bit..if they feel their fish are fine so be it..

i raise my fish in soft water with low Ph and i condition them for tanks worldwide by placeing them in gradiated TAP WATER 7 DAYS PRIOR TO SHIPMENT
then when they hit tanks everywhere they dont feel the difference so much

i dont claim to know the science of water chemisrty etc..
but i do know what my discus like..

AB

[american breeder]

I have always raised my discus in good old Los Angeles Tap water with out any problems. I like to read Mark's posts the same as I enjoy an episode of the Simpsons. I watch and laugh. I surly don't take seriously. If you want to that is your business. Good Luck!!

For me to believe what anyone is saying I first want to see they have done it themselves. It's very convenient to say this is how to do it. I can do that also. But there is NO PROOF from this guy. Where is his hatchery? Where are the pairs? Pics? OK if he doesn't want pics posted allow someone to verify it. It's all to convenient to just keep talking. The proof is in the documentation. And it is all lacking.

It's just entertainment. Remember the Snake Oil salesmen of the early 1900s? Some people would swear it worked. Don't be coned.

Mark Fleishmen is a good entertainer.
and your the second act

when Cliff visited u in LA he said u had ten holding tanks
no hatchery Jeff u have never rasuied a discus in your life

u are a imorter of cheap asian discus by your own admission..
u told me u were done with the hobbyist trade

u told cliff u pay a couple of bucks in asia for your fish

PBs Red turq cobalts.
who in asia sells there LSS or Red melons for a couple of bucks no body

before u stat pointing fingers at others Jeff u better take a long hard look at yourself..

stop the nonsense
stick to the issues being debated and forget the proof crap..becuase Jeff im not going to prove anything to u or anyone else here..u can say whatever u want entertainer of the year fine

thanku i accept

the people who need the info get it..
for the regs i think the viewing public
sees use all as entertainers

oh my my

shut my mouth

AB ROTFL

[Willie]

I like to read Mark's posts the same as I enjoy an episode of the Simpsons. I watch and laugh.

Ditto, Willie :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[raglanroad]

The forum as a whole accepts fairly well the theory that harder water makes better growth. No scientific proof at all, none. Yet a person makes the opposite statement, and demands for scientific proof are suddenly what it's all about.
Total turnabout. If we leave personalities, even AB's statements out of this, what I see is refusal to be objective. If you need proof of soft water /better, then demand scientific proof of hard water/better.
Why do aquaculture businesses feed minerals? why not just increase the hardness? You think scientists are not involved in determining which grows fish, gills absorbtion or food?
this also is not proof. It is just a question.

[raglanroad]

Ditto, Willie :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Willie, when we discussed the hard/soft water thing, your input was that you sent your babiesto someone else to raise, because they got better growth due to harder water. I wondered why you didn't then just harden your water. You thought it was too expensive to harden water?

As you state you are a scientist, your conclusion that the other person' s success was better than yours due to the water hardness was neglecting the other variables.

And for expensive fish, to say that minerals cost too much...well,sounds like a stretch. As a scientist, you could easily make a formula, and cheaply. No?

Dave

[Dave C]

The forum as a whole accepts fairly well the theory that harder water makes better growth. No scientific proof at all, none. Yet a person makes the opposite statement, and demands for scientific proof are suddenly what it's all about.

That's incorrect. I accept that Discus grow well in harder water because mine did. And when I said that I had poor growth with growing out Discus in softer water I never said that I had difficulty maintaining that soft water... I said that some hobbyists do. I used RO and it was very easy to maintain. I also said that using soft water forces you to do more w/c. But nowhere did I say that it was difficult for me to do. I switched to tapwater because I was told that it would solve my growth related issues. And it did. So this forum accepts the theory that hard water is acceptable for growing out Discus because so many of us have hard water and our Discus grow so well in it. Why would we question such success? And when someone comes along and tells us that our observations are wrong, our success is overstated and our methods should be changed of course we ask for more information? Do you suggest that we simply change our methods because Mark says we should? I did change my methods before to harder water because others said I should, because I was having poor growth in soft water and the changes suggested simplified keeping Discus. Given that I am not having trouble now and my methods are so simple, why would I, or anyone, further complicate things? It doesn't make sense.

And you continue to misrepresent the proof that we are asking of Mark. I don't believe anyone asks vehemently for proof that soft water works for him. What most are asking is for proof that he owns a 20,000 sq. ft facility, has been breeding Discus for 40 years and sells the hundreds of thousands of Discus that he claims to be selling. My guess is he has 30 tanks in his garage/basement and an overinflated ego.

[american breeder]

The forum as a whole accepts fairly well the theory that harder water makes better growth. No scientific proof at all, none. Yet a person makes the opposite statement, and demands for scientific proof are suddenly what it's all about.
Total turnabout. If we leave personalities, even AB's statements out of this, what I see is refusal to be objective. If you need proof of soft water /better, then demand scientific proof of hard water/better.
Why do aquaculture businesses feed minerals? why not just increase the hardness? You think scientists are not involved in determining which grows fish, gills absorbtion or food?
this also is not proof. It is just a question.
do they accept the so called act of the MCGYVER BOX too
what else do they accept..
if u go to asia
and tell them hard water makes their fish grow faster they will laugh right in your face
yuip Dave when i first came here and saw what was being said i coukld not restrain myself

but now i must get the idea how to post without pushing the issues
leting others have their say and not being so crticial

if u want hard water
fine

i like soft water and lower Ph
my fish are nice grow very very quick reach 2 inch in 6 weeks
thats all the proof i need

[Dave C]

That's all the proof I need too Mark. So let's see some pics of your facility. What's the harm? The confusion that we suffer from comes from the incongruity of statements you make like this...

"heating a 20ksqft building isnt easy"

and this...

"i can hold 10000 newly hatched larvae for up to two weeks in the space of a large floor to ceiling book case after the fish reach 2inches..which is what i sell mostly. over 80% of my output is sold in a 2inch model.."

So you hold 10,000 in such a small space and sell 80% of those fish at the 2" size... why would you need a 20,000 sq. ft. facility? It makes no sense, but could all be cleared up with a few simple pictures of the rows of tanks you must have with all of the Discus you're growing out beyond the 2" size. I know you don't feel the need to prove anything to us, but why wouldn't you simply post pics of the many, many tanks of happy Discus you must have? That's a very simple question.

[Jeff]

Mark you are right about some things. I do not breed discus. I import and sell. Everyone knows this. I do not claim to breed. I do know discus like soft water for spawning, and hard water for growing.

I do buy Asian discus and resell them. You are correct I do not care about ever shipping discus for retail sales again. I will supply wholesale and local retail sales. You are correct when I started I did only have a few tanks and expand from there. How much I buy and sell for or what my profit margin is not your business. I obviously do make money. That is why I did it as a hobby/business.

Mark Fleishman is making claims that goes against what almost all others before him have made. It is not unreasonable for anyone looking at his claims to ask for his credentials, proof of his claims and why he is making such claims.

I doubt you will document anything. You do not even use proper writing skills such as complete thoughts and paragraphs and have even failed to acknowledge your name and company name.

Because you are unable and unwilling to prove anything you say but just keep working the keyboard most of the older members of this forum who have discus experience look at you as a phony. You are the entertainer of the year at Simply discus. I want to make sure new discus keepers know fact from fiction. I see you posting mostly fiction and very little fact.


I have a very good relationship with my customers. There are a few I'm sure who do not like me, but over the past several years my customers appreciate what I have done for them. I want to make sure you are not giving misinformation to them. If I just sit and let you entertain them and they start believing what you are saying I will be letting my customers down.

Even though I'm not selling to them I do care about them. If you want to sell to them cool, just sell your discus. I don't care, but don't mislead them.

[ronrca]

Wow! Lots of posting and guess what, lots of spinning also and Marc your one of them. Perhaps you should go back and reread my posts again as, I'll give you the benefit of doubt, that you 'read' too much into them or misunderstood. I dont remember saying that tap or harder water is better for raising/keeping discus and you keep coming back to the breeding part. I already said I agree with the breeding part. Its the other 'mis information' that you keep insisting on that I have issues with.

Here is my post from 'Hardness and how it affects fish':
http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?p=263608#post263608


I will make this simple for you to understand Marc because it seems the 'others' are not the only ones 'spinning' info


Quote:
Originally Posted by AMERICANBREEDER
Ron and boys have proved nothing to me that hard alkaline water is better for grow outs


I do not remember any post of mine stating that tap water is betterfor growing out. I will make this one statement. This is what I believe and promote.
There is no single way to raise and keep discus be it soft or be it hard water.

Its simple! The arguments are against that and you and others are trying to force me to believe that you can only raise and keep discus in soft water as per the 'other' thread you started. Btw, please note that I did not use the 'breed' in the sentence.

Now, I have provided scientific evidence of what happens in the fishes osmoregulation system. If you dont believe it, thats your opinion and you are entitled to it. Guess what? Im entitled to mine as well EVEN if you disagree with it. Discussing issues are fine and long as persuavive arguments have support and validity. Just because you and many others that have been doing this for decades only use soft water, doesnt mean its the only way! Im not telling you and the others to change the way you do things. My point is that discus can be raised and kept successfully in harder water parameters (notice the word can rather than better is used and no breeding word again). If you can not grasp that, Im also fine with that but dont tell me its wrong because thats just the way it has been done for years. I realize change is hard and just as fish need aclimatization, so do people. Yes I see the advantages of nice soft RO water however I also see disadvantages particularily with beginners and in my area of the world, the cost factor.

[elblin]

I've read this thread with great interest, as many seem to have done as well. I've found this board to be a wonderful source of information regards the hobby of keeping Discus, and have met some very wonderful and informative people.

However, I feel the need to make a suggestion that, while it has nothing to do with whether or not Discus do better in soft or hard water, does get to what seems like a fundemental over-arching issue regards a lot of the arguments being fobbed around on this board. And, I admit, something that has been driving me crazy.:)

Perhaps Mr. American Breeder, Mr. Mark, or whatever he deems to call himself today would have better luck communicating with people on this board if, as Jeff suggests, he follows proper sentence structure, follows the basic rules of English grammar, and uses that wonderful tool the spell checker.

Seems to me that these rules exist for a reason, to facilitate a common communication method, so everyone who speaks and reads a particular language can understand one another. Or, does he feel that these rules don't apply to him as well?

I'm not about to get into the debate about his opinions, his methods, and his seemingly sole ownership of most major advances in keeping Discus. And, I'm sure someone will find issues with my gramatical structure in this little note as well (although I did use the spell checker, and found some mistakes!). However, I would strongly suggest that if English is your native tongue, why don't you start using it more effectively? That might help.

[cruzzinchop]

I to am an outsider on this whole thing. However I have come here a few times to get help from the board memebers and it has happened and I really have appreciated that.

The info shared here is up to you to take it as you want to use it. Good bad or other wise.

I share in part to several forums not just fish but motorcycles, Remote control planes cars ect.. and a few other. They are all great forums like this one but there is also a few "knot heads" on every one. Now let me explain "KNOT HEAD"= Anyone on a forum willing to reply to anothers "knot heads" post strickly for the sake of causing grief. Point is we are all knot heads sharing info. No one way or persons way is the "right" way. Share your own idea on a subject and let it go. If someone ask how you got the results answer. If you dont want to answer dont post your results in the first place. Then when someone else posts keep your idea on how it should be done to yourself.

Fish are not that technical, they are not as simple as 2+2=4 but they are not the same as some of the huge blowups I have seen on the motorcycle frame building forums. These sites deal with numbers. Lots of techinical data and measurements for building stuff. Guys selling plans and posting numbers had better be right or the will get some grief and that is understandable. So with the frame forums YOU CANT post anything unless you know for a fact it is gonna be right. This keeps most folks in check over there. The "Know it alls" are weeded out very fast. Welding, now here is a subject on the other forums that is constantly beaten to death. You know there is many ways to weld to pieces of metal together. Everyone has there own style or methed.

My point here is: There is more than one way to skin the cat. My momma always said..... Don't open your mouth unless you have something good to say. This goes both ways on a forum but someyimes it takes awhile for it to get understood on the forum.

I posted some questions about my pairs, my water and how to trigger the spawning from them as they are old enough and everything is correct. I got 2 replys and very few very very few looks. I cruised over here to read this topic about breeding because it has a vast amount of replies and a hell of alot of looks and I start to read and all this topic has turned into is BS. This thing is getting pounded with posts of crap yet my post looking for fish info that I know most of you know has only had 2 reply's. The first being from none other than AB, and the second from another fellow saying just a short blurp but at least trying to help me out. Now the one from AB is great!! I can either take that info and try it or not. NO flaming NO BS use it as I choose. Now I would like to know from some of the other heavy hitters that are right here to post how some others are doing things wrong there opion on this fish called discus and how to get there spawing activities up. AB was very helpful to share his way with me but I have seen no others.

Lets talk fish not BS

You want to FLAME people I believe there is actually a forum for just such a thing.. it is called flame.com or something close to that where you can go play argue online all day long. Might be fun for some of you to let off some steam then come back and talk fish.

Later

[Dave C]

cruzzinchop, you asked what to do about your pairs and two hours later Mark responded with a suggestion and you said you'd give it a try. It didn't make sense to give other suggestions, if I had them to give, given that you were already doing this. I would have commented if I thought it was a bad idea, but knew that if I did I'd be crucified if I did disagree. Talk about a flame war then. Had I said anything I would have asked what size tank you were going to combine these fish in, since I don't know what size tank you have available... and if you only had a 30g it would be a bad idea imo to put 8 adults in there. And then you asked, after two hours more, if you should remove them. Mark's suggestion clearly stated to wait two weeks so again, I wasn't going to step in and change what you had already begun. I don't feel it helps to have many people giving different ideas once a person had chosen a path.

[Willie]

Willie, when we discussed the hard/soft water thing, your input was that you sent your babiesto someone else to raise, because they got better growth due to harder water. I wondered why you didn't then just harden your water. You thought it was too expensive to harden water? ..... And for expensive fish, to say that minerals cost too much...well,sounds like a stretch. As a scientist, you could easily make a formula, and cheaply. No?

Dave

Dave;

I have nothing but anecdotal evidence that hard water is better for raising babies. No controlled experiments have been done. Why do I sent my babies out for someone else to raise? Because daily W/C's are a pain in the a$$!

Wilie :):):):):)

[Kindredspirit]

Sorry for not advising you appropriately.....If you want to keep your fish for a very long time always carbon filter ur tapwater and don't forget to change that cartridge once every couple of months! They are not that expensive, you can find them in your local Home Depot!




Elcid.....


No need to apologize, really tho....So you are saying to use carbon in my filter? All the time?

Oh Double Dear:(



Marie

[Dave C]

Willie, you lazy, lazy man. Ha ha ha.

[cruzzinchop]

Dave, I shot you a PM dude!!!


I did not post here to make waves just to make some folks hopefully open there eyes and see the whole point of this forum......


SIMPLY DISCUS

[Elcid]

Many years ago I went to visit Peter Thorde with another famous Amercian discus breeder. You could say luck would have it that I enjoyed such company even if it were for one weekend. I saw his growout tanks, his breeding tanks, his bowls for artificially raising fry, it was quite a huge facility but he didn't have that many fish and no spawns. He told us great fish stories and how he's found oak leaves soaked water makes discus go crazy for breeding :) Now, don't run out and rake ur lawn right away :) Why wasn't he breeding like crazy! Why wasn't his facility fully stocked up? Ppl want Asian discus, and he can import them so cheap, what's the point in breeding and running such a costly facility? Bring em in, ship em out! Don't hold any except those that don't sell! And keep a few favorites for your own enjoyment, enough with this! Let's have some Tea ;)

[Elcid]

No, just use a "once through" carbon filter to filter the tapwater you add to your tank.


Elcid.....


No need to apologize, really tho....So you are saying to use carbon in my filter? All the time?

Oh Double Dear:(



Marie

[Kindredspirit]

. And, I admit, something that has been driving me crazy.:)

Perhaps Mr. American Breeder, Mr. Mark, or whatever he deems to call himself today would have better luck communicating with people on this board if, as Jeff suggests, he follows proper sentence structure, follows the basic rules of English grammar, and uses that wonderful tool the spell checker.

Seems to me that these rules exist for a reason, to facilitate a common communication method, so everyone who speaks and reads a particular language can understand one another. Or, does he feel that these rules don't apply to him as well?

I'm not about to get into the debate about his opinions, his methods, and his seemingly sole ownership of most major advances in keeping Discus. And, I'm sure someone will find issues with my gramatical structure in this little note as well (although I did use the spell checker, and found some mistakes!). However, I would strongly suggest that if English is your native tongue, why don't you start using it more effectively? That might help.



AB~

Listen, Mark....What this gentleman said above is so very true... I can not debate with you about what you have or know, but only what I read and feel. I have that right. When I read your very very first post, I thought I was in the Twilight Zone...then it just got worse from there. Perhaps, if you could not communicate in two, three, four word sentences, your credibility might not continously end up on that proverbial microscope slide. It has to sting a little, Mark.

It is and always has been all about how you come off on your threads. And as I really do not know much at all, I am so learning, I feel you know exactly what you are doing, and to whom. For whatever reason. Most people are proud of their discus, and what they have accomplished, and post pictures, and websites, and whatever... But you, do not. But you could. You could settle all this once and for all. But, again, you do not... And that makes for doubt. And Mystery. And the ones that really know of what they speak, are not going to let that slide.

But You knew that~



So, I am guessing that as long as you are here, so will they be. And for that I am glad as Jeff put it, Someone has to watch out for us, the Simply Hobbyist, the ones that have no clue and that trust without question, but with common sense...Can you fix this? You know what I mean Mark...

Happy Thanksgiving!



Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_5_15.gif

[Kindredspirit]

No, just use a "once through" carbon filter to filter the tapwater you add to your tank.



Elcid~


Ok....'once through'... How do i know that I have filtered, once thru...dont laugh!! be nice~


Marie~:angel:

[Dave C]

Once through means you run a hose from your tap through a carbon filter to your holding tank or aquarium. At Home Depot you can get canisters that are threaded to receive a hose fitting and come with carbon filter inserts.

[Jeff]

I have to say, I'm not a discus guru. I have successfully had discus for 4-5 years and enjoyed them very much. What I have learned is that discus can adapt to many different conditions. So that means many different ways to raise and enjoy them. I don't think there is specifically a "best" way to keep them. Just enjoy them and don't stress out about them.

[Kindredspirit]

Once through means you run a hose from your tap through a carbon filter to your holding tank or aquarium. At Home Depot you can get canisters that are threaded to receive a hose fitting and come with carbon filter inserts.


Thanks, Dave!:angel:

[Jeff]

They also dechlorinate your water, but do not remove chloramines.

[raglanroad]

Interesting, Jeff. It isn't good for treating for chloramine? How can you deal with chloramines?

[fishfan]

I have followed simply discus with interest for the past few months. What people tend to forget is that 2+2=4, but then again so does 3+1=4

My dad has been breeding neons and cardinals since 1950 and has experimented with RO, deionised, distilled water and water softners. All work equally well. Common factor is that one has to breed them in total water hardness of 4 - 8 ppm. Thats the easy part. In those days my father use to milk the neons and cardinals (yes you put the one tiny fish between 2 fingers in the left hand, turn the other fish around and hold him between 2 fingers in the other hand, squeeze the female gently and stroke the male gently til eggs and milt are released, squirt some water in to mix the milt and eggs together. You have 3 seconds til the sperm dies). Yet you still had idiots arguing with him on how many eggs a neon or cardinal can lay.

The big thing here is that there is a vast difference between the hobbyist and the commercial breeder. Here in Africa, you have to be able to breed at least 20 varieties of fish to make a living. I have seen a tremendous amount of successful hobbyists trying to step up to the commercial plate,so too has AB also seen, and fail. There is a huge difference maintaining 10 tanks in your back room and maintain 500 to a 1000+ tanks/ponds. A commercial breeder has to know what he is doing or he will see his behind very quickly. On the other hand the commercial breeder also tends to forget that the hobbyist does not have the facilities he has and often makes recommendations that a hobbyist cannot follow - soften water, weigh medications - PP is a great medication, but if not used properly can be lethal, I personally will not recommend the use of it to a hobbyist unless he personally comes to see me and I explain to him how to use it.

Here in the Johannesburg (gauteng area), water is supplied by the Rand Water Board and water is about 69 ppm hardness with pH of about 8.4. This water is sold to Joburg water and thats where the trouble begins. Even though Rand water supplies excellent quality water, once Joburg water stores it in its water towers, the water quality deteriorates and in certain areas we get ammonia and nitrite readings coming straight from our taps most probably because of the different types of linings used in the water towers. So hobbyists in different areas have to treat and use their water differently.
We see therefore that different methods have to be used in different areas and what works for you does not work for me. Bottom line is that each hobbyist must learn the basic principles and be able to apply them according to the situation he/she finds himself in.

Another thing that has changed in recent years is the advent of the internet and computers. Nowadays, the younger generation is too lazy to try anything or do anything for himself, hence the I want proof crap. In the old days, if you wanted to see if something works or not you either had to try and find someone who had tried it or you experiment yourself. Simple as that. The fun part of the hobby is to try things out for yourself.

For years I have been feeding my fish with daphnia caught straight from the sewrage farm and have NEVER had mass wipe outs or bacteria infections as most experts will claim you will have. Maybe I've just been lucky - who knows. My imported discus are fed with daphnia about 4 hours after after they are put into their holding tanks. The reaction is interesting as they watch the dapnia with suspicion for quite a while before one is brave enough to investigate and see what it is. Then all attack the daphnia with relish. I definitely do not advocate that you change to live foods, its what is easiest and what works for me. When it comes to feeding, commercial breeders feed a lot more than the hobbyist does hence the need for extra water changes.

I have just started delving into the world of discus and find them facinating. Believe you me, I know very little about discus, but from my overall experience with other types of fish, I can see that AB and others actually do know what they are talking about, its just that your conditions, time availability etc differ. I for one would not like to show pictures of my setup as most of you would cringe at the conditions I keep my fish in. Yet still they survive and are healthy. I will also be the first to advice you not to do what I do as I will pick up potential problems a lot earlier than the average hobbyist will.

Lets cut the crap (excuse the term), and lets start learning from other people's experiences. We are knit picking even though we all have the same objectives in mind. By continually arguing with others we are actually only chasing those that we need on the forum, away.

AB take cognisance of the fact that I for one, learn from you every day and from my personal experience know that you are talking from experience and what you say if factual. I for one don't need you to prove anything to me. Forget also about the language critics, we are not here to learn the King's English besides, according to the British, the Americans can't spell anyway:o

To Jimmy, Andrew, Carol, Kumar, in fact everyone who partakes in this forum, thanks for sharing your experiences with me, after 20 years in the trade I still learn daily.

To the owner and moderators of this site, I still think some people e.g Kumar should be cut some slack as there is plenty we can learn from him and like it or not his loss is also our loss.

To the hobbyists out there, be aware that most breeders, pet shop owners,etc are willing to help, but when non-customers start invading their privacy especially after hours they will be told just where to climb off in no uncertain terms. Here in SA, it is due to the knowall hobbyists that LFS no longer volunteer information to the public - why teach someone something he already knows

[jeep]

Interesting, Jeff. It isn't good for treating for chloramine? How can you deal with chloramines?

Chlorimines = chlorine molicules bonded to ammonia molicules. Most water companies add chlorine AND chloramines to public water because it is more stabil (long lasting) than chlorine alone. (Chloramines sounds plural but is not) Filtering through a carbon block will remove the chlorine AND break the ammonia/chlorine bond, but will leave the ammonia behind, which will require some sort of treatment to remove...either bio-filtration or chemical additives...

[Kindredspirit]

Chlorimines = chlorine molicules bonded to ammonia molicules. Most water companies add chlorine AND chloramines to public water because it is more stabil (long lasting) than chlorine alone. (Chloramines sounds plural but is not) Filtering through a carbon block will remove the chlorine AND break the ammonia/chlorine bond, but will leave the ammonia behind, which will require some sort of treatment to remove...either bio-filtration or chemical additives...


So......Jeep, I will 'filter once thru with carbon', at every water change if i want to be 100% sure my tap water will not turn on me someday, and then treat with Prime, as I have always done??


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_7_9.gif

[jeep]

That's what I do. I even treat my RO water with Prime because of the leftover ammonia that makes it through the RO membrane.

Your other option would be to use a seasoned filter and age the water over night. The filter should consume the ammonia, but I don't know how long the bacteria in a sponge could last on the small levels of ammonia in common tap water :confused:

[american breeder]

I have followed simply discus with interest for the past few months. What people tend to forget is that 2+2=4, but then again so does 3+1=4

My dad has been breeding neons and cardinals since 1950 and has experimented with RO, deionised, distilled water and water softners. All work equally well. Common factor is that one has to breed them in total water hardness of 4 - 8 ppm. Thats the easy part. In those days my father use to milk the neons and cardinals (yes you put the one tiny fish between 2 fingers in the left hand, turn the other fish around and hold him between 2 fingers in the other hand, squeeze the female gently and stroke the male gently til eggs and milt are released, squirt some water in to mix the milt and eggs together. You have 3 seconds til the sperm dies). Yet you still had idiots arguing with him on how many eggs a neon or cardinal can lay.

The big thing here is that there is a vast difference between the hobbyist and the commercial breeder. Here in Africa, you have to be able to breed at least 20 varieties of fish to make a living. I have seen a tremendous amount of successful hobbyists trying to step up to the commercial plate,so too has AB also seen, and fail. There is a huge difference maintaining 10 tanks in your back room and maintain 500 to a 1000+ tanks/ponds. A commercial breeder has to know what he is doing or he will see his behind very quickly. On the other hand the commercial breeder also tends to forget that the hobbyist does not have the facilities he has and often makes recommendations that a hobbyist cannot follow - soften water, weigh medications - PP is a great medication, but if not used properly can be lethal, I personally will not recommend the use of it to a hobbyist unless he personally comes to see me and I explain to him how to use it.

Here in the Johannesburg (gauteng area), water is supplied by the Rand Water Board and water is about 69 ppm hardness with pH of about 8.4. This water is sold to Joburg water and thats where the trouble begins. Even though Rand water supplies excellent quality water, once Joburg water stores it in its water towers, the water quality deteriorates and in certain areas we get ammonia and nitrite readings coming straight from our taps most probably because of the different types of linings used in the water towers. So hobbyists in different areas have to treat and use their water differently.
We see therefore that different methods have to be used in different areas and what works for you does not work for me. Bottom line is that each hobbyist must learn the basic principles and be able to apply them according to the situation he/she finds himself in.

Another thing that has changed in recent years is the advent of the internet and computers. Nowadays, the younger generation is too lazy to try anything or do anything for himself, hence the I want proof crap. In the old days, if you wanted to see if something works or not you either had to try and find someone who had tried it or you experiment yourself. Simple as that. The fun part of the hobby is to try things out for yourself.

For years I have been feeding my fish with daphnia caught straight from the sewrage farm and have NEVER had mass wipe outs or bacteria infections as most experts will claim you will have. Maybe I've just been lucky - who knows. My imported discus are fed with daphnia about 4 hours after after they are put into their holding tanks. The reaction is interesting as they watch the dapnia with suspicion for quite a while before one is brave enough to investigate and see what it is. Then all attack the daphnia with relish. I definitely do not advocate that you change to live foods, its what is easiest and what works for me. When it comes to feeding, commercial breeders feed a lot more than the hobbyist does hence the need for extra water changes.

I have just started delving into the world of discus and find them facinating. Believe you me, I know very little about discus, but from my overall experience with other types of fish, I can see that AB and others actually do know what they are talking about, its just that your conditions, time availability etc differ. I for one would not like to show pictures of my setup as most of you would cringe at the conditions I keep my fish in. Yet still they survive and are healthy. I will also be the first to advice you not to do what I do as I will pick up potential problems a lot earlier than the average hobbyist will.

Lets cut the crap (excuse the term), and lets start learning from other people's experiences. We are knit picking even though we all have the same objectives in mind. By continually arguing with others we are actually only chasing those that we need on the forum, away.

AB take cognisance of the fact that I for one, learn from you every day and from my personal experience know that you are talking from experience and what you say if factual. I for one don't need you to prove anything to me. Forget also about the language critics, we are not here to learn the King's English besides, according to the British, the Americans can't spell anyway:o

To Jimmy, Andrew, Carol, Kumar, in fact everyone who partakes in this forum, thanks for sharing your experiences with me, after 20 years in the trade I still learn daily.

To the owner and moderators of this site, I still think some people e.g Kumar should be cut some slack as there is plenty we can learn from him and like it or not his loss is also our loss.

To the hobbyists out there, be aware that most breeders, pet shop owners,etc are willing to help, but when non-customers start invading their privacy especially after hours they will be told just where to climb off in no uncertain terms. Here in SA, it is due to the knowall hobbyists that LFS no longer volunteer information to the public - why teach someone something he already knows
great post FF

tell us again how your dad used water softners

cardinals are similar in that they love soft water

be well
AB

[Elcid]

I would appreciate it if anyone can share with me their experience with water movement in a breeding tank setup without external filtration systems? I always have a hard time maintaining my water quality over a period of 5 to 7 days after the eggs are laid using only a sponge filter. When I use a hang on the back type filter the water quality is excellent but there is too much water movement (and I believe effects my fertilization rate) and shadows created cause the fry to scatter.

thanks,
Sandeep

[Dave C]

I'll sound like a broken record, but what the hell. Try a HOT Magnum filter with micron insert. It pushes 250gph at the max. When there are fry you just take an AC200 or AC300 sponge and cut an X in it lengthwise and slide a sponge over the input and one over the output of the filter. This reduces the current to almost nothing and prevents fry from being sucked into the filter. As the fry grow and become more adventurous you can remove the sponge from the output to produce more current. When they are big enough not to be sucked into the filter you can remove the other sponge.

[Willie]

... When I use a hang on the back type filter the water quality is excellent but there is too much water movement (and I believe effects my fertilization rate) ....

This too is not true. I have often had discus pairs spawn on the intake tube, right in the path of the biowheel output. Those are almost always spawns with high fertility rates. Angelfish also do this frequently. Water movement does not impact fertilization.

Willie

[Elcid]

Hi Willie:

Thanks for your input. Why is it then that I get almost 100% fertilization when I'm only using a sponge filter and less than 50% when I have the hang-on filter operating? My experience is with spotted fish and scorpian diamonds. And the fry stick to the parents so much better when the water is still?

thanks,
Sandeep

[american breeder]

I would appreciate it if anyone can share with me their experience with water movement in a breeding tank setup without external filtration systems? I always have a hard time maintaining my water quality over a period of 5 to 7 days after the eggs are laid using only a sponge filter. When I use a hang on the back type filter the water quality is excellent but there is too much water movement (and I believe effects my fertilization rate) and shadows created cause the fry to scatter.

thanks,
Sandeep
Hi EL

i dont have filters in my tanks regular tanks
just an airstone except in showroom i have sponge and waterfall filters
where water isnt going to be changed very much

and fish are fed lightly becuase they are on their way out the door

i find my fish like it best with a very mild water movement
the fish that i put in the showroom take a good 3 to 4 days to adjust to the swifter moveing water

discus are adaptable ..

but in the amazon they stay out of the current and tend to live in places where the movement of water is very slow or almost nil

try a tank with just an airstone and change water everyday

good luck

AB

[american breeder]

This too is not true. I have often had discus pairs spawn on the intake tube, right in the path of the biowheel output. Those are almost always spawns with high fertility rates. Angelfish also do this frequently. Water movement does not impact fertilization.

Willie
it may not in your situation
but other people have made note that it does..

i agree with Els observations. for the most part..i have seen this result at a friends house
he said almost the exact same words as El said

he took all the filters out of his pair tanks
put in airstones turned them down low
and whamo prosperity

good luck
AB

[Elcid]

Hi Dave:

I'm going to have to get me a couple of these HOT Magnums :).....I use the Aquarium System 3000 filter. I like it's cheap and it's easy to clean and I can put any media in it I want. I believe it's also around 300 gph. Any reason you prefer the HOT Magnums? Do they really do any better a job at maintaining good water quailty than this type i'm using?

thanks,
Sandeep

[raglanroad]

Another thing that has changed in recent years is the advent of the internet and computers. Nowadays, the younger generation is too lazy to try anything or do anything for himself, hence the I want proof crapI love it. t's the Simply Song. Sung by young and old. Not only too lazy to try, too lazy too think
Lets cut the crap (excuse the term)..
I for one don't need you to prove anything to me. Forget also about the language critics, we are not here to learn the King's English besides, according to the British, the Americans can't spell anyway:o If you notice it's the ones with zero to offer that demand "grammar" and "complete sentences" then they are gone, leavingtheir own spelling mistakes. These English language proponents better not listen to Bob Dylan or they'll have a breakdown. Does not compute. Does not compute

Here in SA, it is due to the knowall hobbyists that LFS no longer volunteer information to the public - why teach someone something he already knowsHmm... you really got a point there! Thank you so much, it feels like air came into the mausoleum called forum.

[Dave C]

Hi Dave:

I'm going to have to get me a couple of these HOT Magnums :).....I use the Aquarium System 3000 filter. I like it's cheap and it's easy to clean and I can put any media in it I want. I believe it's also around 300 gph. Any reason you prefer the HOT Magnums? Do they really do any better a job at maintaining good water quailty than this type i'm using?

thanks,
Sandeep

I have never tried the filter you're using. I did what typically happens, I tried filters until I found one that works and stopped looking. I started with Magnum floor models and hated them. The clips that hold the lid on break over time. Actually it's the plastic molding that holds the clips that breaks. And then the filter is basically useless as it can't stay watertight. The HOT model has slower flow (250gph vs 350gph) but it hangs on the tank so the risk of leaking is minimal, zero in my experience. They are very easy to clean and very easy to use. The filter you're using doesn't appear to have the capability of micron filtration, unless there's an insert that I'm not aware of. I guess you could fill it with filter floss. And it looks like an AC in the sense that you can't control the output, it just overflows into the tank. With a HOT Magnum you can add a PVC pipe to the outflow to direct it right at the bottom of the tank, you can also do the same with the input. This allows you to keep the tank bottom clean without siphoning. You can also add sponges to the in & output. IMO the Magnums combine water polishing with ease of use and are almost at the level of a Diatom filter in terms of quality of mechanical filtration. I can usually pick them up from Pet Solutions for about $40-$45.

[Elcid]

Hi AB:

Thanks for your suggestion. But, my fish are spoiled, if I take all filters out the water is not that great after 24 hrs (they are in a 20 gallon tank). Even if I change water every day, my fish stopped spawning! Maybe I need a bigger tank?

thanks,
Sandeep


Hi EL


try a tank with just an airstone and change water everyday

good luck

AB

[Elcid]

Hi Dave:

Is micron filtration important in a breeding tank? How often do you clean the filter? I just squeeze out my sponges everyday when I waterchange and syphon the bottom.

thanks,
Sandeep

[Dave C]

Thank you so much, it feels like air came into the mausoleum called forum.

You'd be so much more effective if you could make your point without demeaning the entire forum. It's an obvious statement that proper English, spelling & punctuation makes it much easier for others to understand what someone is saying. That doesn't make it right to put people down for misspelling words, but it really is worth the effort to make an attempt to communicate more effectively.

And in many people's experience the best way to learn a new task is to find someone who has been doing it for many years successfully and emulate that person. That is a much better starting point then to start from scratch and make all of the same mistakes that many seasoned veterans have made. But such emulation does not equate to laziness. Many may disagree on who provides an example worth emulating and that's where the arguments begin. But the act of copying the methods that yielded success for someone does not mean the person is lazy. Similarly, refining methods to allow you to spend less time on a task, less often is also not a sign of laziness. The adage is to work smarter, not harder... we all know that but whenever someone says that doing something a different way means you can do it less often they are automatically deemed lazy. I've dealt with that logic my entire business life and I can't fathom it.

The desire for "proof crap", in this case at least, is a desire for substantiation of a poster that hides his identity, hides his Discus facility and hides his fish, not proof that a method works. There's a big difference. You still may not agree that such "proof crap" is necessary but it's not an insult to want to see the results of a person's recommendations. If anything the internet also provides a forum where anyone can become an instant expert, have years & years of experience and thousands of square feet of tank space.

If this forum, or any forum, seems like a mausoleum I don't know why you'd spend any more of your time reading.

[Dave C]

Hi Dave:

Is micron filtration important in a breeding tank? How often do you clean the filter? I just squeeze out my sponges everyday when I waterchange and syphon the bottom.

thanks,
Sandeep

No idea if "micron filtration" is important or not. But I have a sponge filter in the tank for biological filtration. The Magnum represents mechanical filtration. If I'm going to use a mechanical filter I try to find the best one possible to keep my tank clean. If micron filtration keeps it cleaner then using another media then I use micron filtration. It sure keeps my tanks clean, and does so with minimal effort from me. I figure that a clean tank is better then a dirty one. It would drive me nuts to wipe down the glass on a tank and then watch the crap float around for hours until it settled on the tank bottom waiting to be siphoned the next day. With the Magnum operating with no sponges the crap is collected within an hour or two and the current never allows it to settle anywhere.

For maintenance I remove the micron when the water level gets too slow. How slow is too slow? You decide. Then I rinse them under strong current from the tap and set them in a bucket with 1 part bleach to about 8 parts water. A day later I rinse again and set them in a bucket of water for another day. Then they are dried & ready for use. I have 3 microns for every Magnum so there's always a dry one ready to use immediately. I use these in conjunction with sponges so your maintenance will be increased by using these filters vs. not using them. But when I do a w/c it's usually unnecessary to vacuum the tank bottom so I just hook the hose on the tank, start a siphon and let the water fly. On a fry tank, with sponges on the output you would still have to vacuum the tank bottom. The choice is yours, use a Magnum or not. Having used one I'd never do without it.

[Evan]

I use the microns too. I actually tried them out after reading Dave's experiment on his webpage. I follow the same procedure for cleaning that Dave just mentioned. Much less maintenance, and the tanks are cleaner.
I had fish spawn right in front of the output, with 90% fertilized.

Why would you not want to learn from other peoples mistakes and try experienced persons methods? There is not point reinventing the wheel when you don't have to.

[raglanroad]

You'd be so much more effective if you could make your point without demeaning the entire forum. It's an obvious statement that proper English, spelling & punctuation makes it much easier for others to understand what someone is saying. That doesn't make it right to put people down for misspelling words, but it really is worth the effort to make an attempt to communicate more effectively.
I've read your stuff about the forum berfore, so have other people. I call your statement one of the most hypocritical ones I've read recently.
And in many people's experience the best way to learn a new task is to find someone who has been doing it for many years successfully and emulate that person. That is a much better starting point then to start from scratch and make all of the same mistakes that many seasoned veterans have made. But such emulation does not equate to lazyness. you are not attempting to emulate, you attempt to forward your own agenda, which seems to have nothing to do with learning, Many may disagree on who provides an example worth emulating and that's where the arguments begin. But the act of copying the methods that yielded success for someone does not mean the person is lazy. Similarly, refining methods to allow you to spend less time on a task, less often is also not a sign of lazyness. The adage is to work smarter, not harder... we all know that but whenever someone says that doing something a different way means you can do it less often they are automatically deemed lazy. I've dealt with that logic my entire business life and I can't fathom it.

The desire for "proof crap", in this case at least, is a desire for substantiation of a poster that hides his identity, hides his Discus facility and hides his fish, not proof that a method works. There's a big difference. You still may not agree that such "proof crap" is necessary but it's not an insult to want to see the results of a person's recommendations. If anything the internet also provides a forum where anyone can become an instant expert, have years & years of experience and thousands of square feet of tank space.

If this forum, or any forum, seems like a mausoleum I don't know why you'd spend any more of your time reading.the same questio has been asked of you before, with no good answer. you stated, "but I do" . I'll give you an answer though, DaveC .It is because of the people like AB, who have somethnig to offer. I find you have been repeating like a broken record. Give it a break, and don't bother to "high horse" me. Your reputation preceeds you.you should be the last one to cast stones. Ever wonder why most of your posts are being ignored now? As to the problems with forums, including this one, I say it straight out here, and you have been , along with a few others, the ones to turn this into a boneyard. Otherwise, everyone could breathe a bit easier.

[american breeder]

Hi AB:

Thanks for your suggestion. But, my fish are spoiled, if I take all filters out the water is not that great after 24 hrs (they are in a 20 gallon tank). Even if I change water every day, my fish stopped spawning! Maybe I need a bigger tank?

thanks,
Sandeep
Hi El

how many fish in Tanks

i do it this way

i put 6 to eight adults that i want eggs from in a 30 gallon
plastic bin

i place 3 or 4 slates against the walls of the bin
the slates are about 10 inches hi and 3 inches wide

water temp is about 81

i feed these fish really heavily
untill stomachs are bulging way out..

30 minutes after feeding i wc
95%
PH is about 6 to 6.5
TDS under 100

fish are makeing eyes at one another big time

much sexual tension amongst the group

the fish have already been conditioned to spawn
prior to being placed in this group situation

then after about 3 to 7 days
the fish go off

usually the first pairing is from the most aggresive male with
the prettiest female u hope

sometimes number one male likes
the secondary female better or even the ugliest one..all fish in this group are gorgeous..but i know that male discus are funny..they dont always go with the best female..so after they spawn i rip the slate out of the tank and remove the number one pairing and place them back in male female segregated tanks
for rest and re conditioning...

after the number one pair is removed the secondary male will find his gal and whamo spawn number two..again same process

after the secondary spawn has been ripped out of breeding tank i remove all remaining fish and usually place the remaining fish up for sale..

i cant hold all these adults..they are still for the most part good breeders
for hobbyist..
i always get at least one spawn before i sell pairs to make certain they are fertile etc..
for the fish that i call production pairs, i offer the client their breeding record

i do not house pairs per se..as other breeders do.. i keep females and males segregated almost at all times..i only have them together for makeing eggs
after that they go to the dorms..not coed mind

males dont get to beat my GORGEOUS AND GENTLE FEMALES AROUND JUST FOR FUN..no way..

it also makes for very ready males and females

like i said the sexual tension amongst the group is extreme when they are placed together

good luck

AB

[Dave C]

Ha ha ha, so the gloves come off. Which posts are being ignored? I post to give my opinion, I have no agenda other then to enjoy myself. Apparently that is at the expense of your enjoyment. Oh well, I can live with that. But I do learn something every day, whether you agree with me or not. My father always said that in every group there will be some you can't get along with. Of course he was right.

[Willie]

Why is it then that I get almost 100% fertilization when I'm only using a sponge filter and less than 50% when I have the hang-on filter operating? My experience is with spotted fish and scorpian diamonds.

Sandeep;

I have no idea. The spotted fish are generally too weak for my taste. I've spawned Angel Diamonds, Pigeons, Marlboros, Red Turqs, Green Turqs..., and have had no problem with fertility. I never got 100%, but its usually in the 70% - 80% range. I would hesitate before ascribing the difference to water current. Sponge filters do an incredible job with biological filtration, much more so than a lot of hang on types -- especially canisters.

All I can say is that, in my experience, I cannot ever blame low fertility to water current. Quite often, its a particular fish.

Willie

[american breeder]

Sandeep;

I have no idea. The spotted fish are generally too weak for my taste. I've spawned Angel Diamonds, Pigeons, Marlboros, Red Turqs, Green Turqs..., and have had no problem with fertility. I never got 100%, but its usually in the 70% - 80% range. I would hesitate before ascribing the difference to water current. Sponge filters do an incredible job with biological filtration, much more so than a lot of hang on types -- especially canisters.

All I can say is that, in my experience, I cannot ever blame low fertility to water current. Quite often, its a particular fish.

Willie
i think maybe Els water fall filter is to big for his tank..he has the double version No?

maybe El..just get the junior if u want

good luck
AB

[raglanroad]

Ha ha ha, so the gloves come off. Which posts are being ignored? I post to give my opinion, I have no agenda other then to enjoy myself. Apparently that is at the expense of your enjoyment. Oh well, I can live with that. But I do learn something every day, whether you agree with me or not. My father always said that in every group there will be some you can't get along with. Of course he was right.you haven't noticed ?the ones where you continually demand proof of AB's residence, facilities, or whatever. those, for starters. when you give good info, you get a response. I have not seen you ask AB a decent question, or maybe you have, but in the pile of other stuff, I missed it.You are on a quest to expose AB for something, and until you have something substantial, it just is beginning to be sickening. You first said the photo of the little fish was in question, as if he had been under suspicion. As if he had lifted the photo. When AB reacted, then you start up about why he isn't posting photos again. On and on and on.
this is not "protecting" the interests of the forum.

[Dave C]

You're right raglanroad. I'm the only person who asked for photos of the guy's facility. And I independently decided that someone had received that photo from an Asian breeder before Mark posted it. And I found out that his name was Mark Fleishman, not Marc Lotus by getting a whitepages for Santa Cruz and calling each person in the book and asking if they had red albino discus.

If there is a "quest" regarding Mark it's to see pics of what he says he's doing. You talk about doing research rather then simply believing what is written but criticize me for doing the same. I don't get my suspicions on my own. Many are IM'd to me and I merely ask the questions. I've never been in a position where a poster refuses to provide anything regarding his fish or tanks... or name. It's never happened before. I've heard a bit more about his fish then you have... he sent samples to people he was trying to sell to. Let's just say they weren't as advertised.

You understand exactly what I'm talking about too, since you found the same thing happened with WillieD from Scotland. How'd that one turn out? That was the guy who was spawning Clown Loaches in his backyard. Have you seen him again since he was asked to show a bit of evidence of his success? I believe the real Willie came forward and exposed the scam. You jumped all over that one and felt righteous for doing so. Maybe you can share a bit of the hypocrisy you're attributing to me. In the future I guess I should ask your permission to have my suspicions... not gonna happen.

[american breeder]

you haven't noticed ?the ones where you continually demand proof of AB's residence, facilities, or whatever. those, for starters. when you give good info, you get a response. I have not seen you ask AB a decent question, or maybe you have, but in the pile of other stuff, I missed it.You are on a quest to expose AB for something, and until you have something substantial, it just is beginning to be sickening. You first said the photo of the little fish was in question, as if he had been under suspicion. As if he had lifted the photo. When AB reacted, then you start up about why he isn't posting photos again. On and on and on.
this is not "protecting" the interests of the forum.
I found useing the ignore feature very refreshing as well
some people for sure want the spotlight on them and when the light doesnt shine they act out in frustration..
i had a internet expert look over this forum and its dynamics..
it was an eye opener

he showed me how simply by not useing absolute terms
that what i wanted to share would be easier for others to look at

people are very attached to how they do things and when it comes to discus they are SIMPLY MADMEN AND WOMEN...its like religion or something..wow..i am humbled for sure..but it is good

humility is good

AB

[Elcid]

Hi Dave:

Thanks for your advise, I'm definately getting a hot magnum in my next order from Dr.Fosters and 3 micron filters!

Willie:

You are quite highly regarded, so I'm not questioning ur authority, maybe the fish I have had are not upto the same standards as those you breed so perhaps my experience is uncommon, maybe both my pair and spawn were subpar and needed unusual conditions to breed and stick to the parents.

AB:

Thanks for your tips, I wish I had as many adults as you to practice ur method. I love to see the romance between my discus pairs and would hate to separate them. Even when they are in the community tank they still hang close together and chase away any other flirtatious gentleman. I guess that's the difference between a commercial breeder and a hobbiest!

Ppl:

Can't we just let the past be the past, if we attack each other so much noone with any decent knowledge will post, I have read many old posts from the greats and why don't they post anymore? Because few individuals constantly attack them for everything they say and they just don't wanna deal with that!!!.....JUST STOP, MAYBE U KNOW EVERYTHING BUT FOR THE BENIFIT OF OTHERS!

[raglanroad]

You're right raglanroad. I'm the only person who asked for photos of the guy's facility. And I independently decided that someone had received that photo from an Asian breeder before Mark posted it. And I found out that his name was Mark Fleishman, not Marc Lotus by getting a whitepages for Santa Cruz and calling each person in the book and asking if they had red albino discus.

If there is a "quest" regarding Mark it's to see pics of what he says he's doing. You talk about doing research rather then simply believing what is written but criticize me for doing the same. I don't get my suspicions on my own. Many are IM'd to me and I merely ask the questions. I've never been in a position where a poster refuses to provide anything regarding his fish or tanks... or name. It's never happened before. I've heard a bit more about his fish then you have... he sent samples to people he was trying to sell to. Let's just say they weren't as advertised.

You understand exactly what I'm talking about too, since you found the same thing happened with WillieD from Scotland. How'd that one turn out? That was the guy who was spawning Clown Loaches in his backyard. Have you seen him again since he was asked to show a bit of evidence of his success? I believe the real Willie came forward and exposed the scam. You jumped all over that one and felt righteous for doing so. Maybe you can share a bit of the hypocrisy you're attributing to me. In the future I guess I should ask your permission to have my suspicions... not gonna happen. I do understand, DaveC.
Really, the photos were the undoing of the fraud. That's why I emailed you to see what you had on AB. I didn't see any response. And it seems it was AB's photo. Let's stop going in circles. I want to know if that little fish is AB's or not. What do you say now? Have you found the "real" owner, or any info on this? If you have,then you da man. Otherwise, it's nothing. Since you are not too shy, please give the name of the person who sent that photo to someone. You want to get to the bottom of it, yet something is hidden in your stuff so far. Where did the photo come from?
Dave

[american breeder]

I do understand, DaveC.
Really, the photos were the undoing of the fraud. That's why I emailed you to see what you had on AB. I didn't see any response. And it seems it was AB's photo. Let's stop going in circles. I want to know if that little fish is AB's or not. What do you say now? Have you found the "real" owner, or any info on this? If you have,then you da man. Otherwise, it's nothing. Since you are not too shy, please give the name of the person who sent that photo to someone. You want to get to the bottom of it, yet something is hidden in your stuff so far. Where did the photo come from?
Dave
El pmd me and told me what had happened with the photo..maybe he can say if he likes/..if he doesnt no matter..it was resolved
nicely..

Dave..why dont u just ignore the guy everyone else is..let him say what he wants,,if it gives him some satisfaction..obviously he isnt a very happy perosn..he has done what he is doing to me to many..its just his life unhappiness comeing out,,he can easily banter because he is behind a screen

its unfortunate to see such unhappy people..

enough said

AB

[Elcid]

Hello: :)

I did contact the person that sent me that picture and he did admit that that picture belongs to AB......SO WHERE's MY FISH! PPL :)

We have seen too many ppl steal pics on the forum and outside and tell you frankly it really ticked my nerve when I saw that pic posted. I'm happy to say I was wrong!

take care,
Sandeep

[american breeder]

Hello: :)

I did contact the person that sent me that picture and he did admit that that picture belongs to AB......SO WHERE's MY FISH! PPL :)

We have seen too many ppl steal pics on the forum and outside and tell you frankly it really ticked my nerve when I saw that pic posted. I'm happy to say I was wrong!

take care,
Sandeep
Dear El

thanks

AB

[Dave C]

Raglan, I never said I knew the source of the photo, nor did I say that I knew it was not Mark's. He posted a pic and someone said they had received it from another source. Immediately mark removed all photos. Now I see that Elcid received confirmation that the photo was indeed Mark's. Perhaps you should be asking Elcid why that wasn't made public until now. I merely asked the question.

[CAGE-RATTLER]

WOW ............ will this thread ever die? .... lol.

Pretty sad when everyones on here arguing non stop and threads asking for help are ignored ........... like this one - http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=45963

[american breeder]

Raglan, I never said I knew the source of the photo, nor did I say that I knew it was not Mark's. He posted a pic and someone said they had received it from another source. Immediately mark removed all photos. Now I see that Elcid received confirmation that the photo was indeed Mark's. Perhaps you should be asking Elcid why that wasn't made public until now. I merely asked the question.
Dear Dave C

please allow me to say this to u
in the most sincere way

what is inside is what we see outside

if we are calm and happy we see our life that way..we see others in a good light
we are tolerant , understanding and compassionate toward everyone..be they weak or strong, in error or not..we allow everyone to be as they are without our preconceived ideas of what they are or could be..

just as well
if we are feeling fearful or angry or we are not content then we see our circumstance this way and everyone involved is now suspect and hidden and what are they really up to ..

of course these are very general and of course there are grey areas
but the basic action contained in both examples is appealing...

so i offer u a chance to just let everything be..
just enjoy..
allow others who u feal are fake or whatever allow them their nuerosis and we will allow u yours..

we are all false and all true
no one is above this..

no one is perfect

we can then assume
that since no one is perfect.... if u allow me this

we all need to be very tolerant of each other..
be kind, gentle compassionate

that shows alot more integrity and maturity than attacking everyone endlessly..and wise too

then the mind is quited from its obsesive interest in everyone outside oneself and
then one can put all that time expended looking out to looking in, finding out the who and why of your own life..your own truth or fakery

because Dave

he who points the finger in my mind has the most to hide

with all respect and compassion

AB

[raglanroad]

Raglan, I never said I knew the source of the photo, nor did I say that I knew it was not Mark's. He posted a pic and someone said they had received it from another source. Immediately mark removed all photos. Now I see that Elcid received confirmation that the photo was indeed Mark's. Perhaps you should be asking Elcid why that wasn't made public until now. I merely asked the question.Dave, first let me apologize for the hot response. I do admire your tenacity and generally good info you provide.
As to sharing, we already share - I get the question " are you DaveC"- which is not insulting to me : )
Anyway, regarding the little fish- El, I got it! -just kidding, but I would like to own it !
Dave, several members have got fish from AB. These are respected members. How do you account for their support of AB if he is a fraud?
Re: discus Madness and the sale of culls; people like Bruce you may blame for selling culls as A1, but a business that tells outright that itis a cull for sale, strikes me as a very reputable source. Maybe some could say they should have killed the fish. that is a debatable thing. But when they advertize a cull for sale, even if it comes from AB, what's the problem? Nobody can have culls?
anyway, enough people have verified AB as a real thing already.
As I investigate some of the critics, I find that the albino genius's don't even know the source of their fish, the parentage. And these people will then say AB doesn't know anthing. He knows his own fish, and what is the parentage.I know one thing for sure. If I display photos of my german shepherd, and pretend to know something, but it turns out I don't know the parents, I am really in a class of pretenders. This is apparently the case with some of the critics. This type of thing has influenced my opinions strongly.
Dave

[ronrca]

Dave and Dave, check the title of the thread. We dont really need to continue this anymore however if you want to discuss phlisophy or whatever else, plz find another place or take it to pm.

[Elcid]

I just found this out a couple of days ago, but I did immediately send PM to AB with my apology! I guess I should have also posted it publically.

In life we make MANY MISTAKES, FORGIVE AND FORGET! :antlers:

take care,
Sandeep

[raglanroad]

Dave and Dave, check the title of the thread. We dont really need to continue this anymore however if you want to discuss phlisophy or whatever else, plz find another place or take it to pm.Ron, almost every thread AB started has been turned into open hunting season. Now we have, through the last few posts, cleared the air about a few items, don't you think? The pics could have been a very strong piece in finding out about fraud. Now we know the truth.

If it all was a fraud, then what difference would our little foray make? If AB is not a fraud, then it is good to remove the pall of suspicion, correct? Done.

Let's move on, and if the people who are grammar critics, personality fixers and so on can find something more useful to do, the less of this we need to deal with.

On another point, I have information from 2 more impeccable sources that water softeners are very good to use, in fact altum have been bred using it.
The main problem as I see it is that it may become a bacterial breeding ground in there. Ok if followed by RO, but if used infrequently, a potential problem exists.

P.S. Oh yeah...if you do only small infrequent WC, eventually through evaporation, you will have a high salt concentration.

Dave

[terps]

All I can say is there are a lot of gullible people on this board. The BS here is getting deep. :D

[Dave C]

I certainly learned much from this thread.

[terps]

Hey Dave C.

I learned a lot too. I now know why those Nigerian spam emails work. There are suckers everywhere. :D

[raglanroad]

Where else have you seen info on how to breed cardinals and neons? Oh, I know. Terps. Terps has lots of good stuff.

[terps]

Rag,

I'd hate to be a discus in your tank. :( Now don't send any money to the Nigerians. You really need proof first. :D

[fwscott]

dont think that because the rest of us dont post we dont agree with the likes of davec and trep. there is no need to add to the thread since what they have posted is what many of us believe. you can follow a faker only so far and then you have to ask where the beef is. answer me this tho if your still searching for truth. how many tanks do you think would fit in a 20000 ft room. if it was 200 x 100 you could fit 100ft of tanks along one wall two high and that would be about 3300 gallons on just one row of tanks two tanks high. then you figure you can fit at least 20 rows with tanks on both sides of the row in a 200 ft wide building with 6 foot walkways and you can put 130000 gallons of tanks into such a room. give it a 50% occupantsy amount for water storage and filters and other things and you have to buy that this ab guy has 65000 gallons of tanks and all for discus but he can raise 2000 discus fry to 2 inches in the space of a bookshelf and sell 80% at that size. then figure he's changing that 65000 gallons twice a day everyday but doesnt seem to concerned about his water bill. i dont buy it for a second nor would anyone with a brain. and his heating bill is 11k in the summer and he is in cali with pellet heaters???? and somehow he is seasonal but breeding his own stock. why seasonal???? i say its because he buys from asia and resells to smalltime importers. he says he only deals in large volume but the only customer he has right now is discusmadness. have you seen there sight??? tell me those fish arent asian. but you believe what you want. if you really want some truth buy some of his fish and see for yourself. think about it. how can someone be so big for 40 years and yet no one has heard of him. cliff knows him but doesnt buy from him. why is that? sure he bought some in the past but not now.

[raglanroad]

oh boy, another one time poster. the rest of us? you mean you have another ID here but went underground for this post? boring. and terps has zip. nothing. DaveC is a very well learned fish enthusiast. You have dispayed some brains, but you are hidden. Terps is what.

[Elcid]

I don't know if AB has a 20,000 sq.ft. discus breeding facility. But let's say it's a rectangle 100' by 200'. My living room is about 20' long so about 5 living rooms across by 10 living rooms long.....Hmm, that doesn't sound too big at all. Over here in New Jersey I can think of atleast 3 wholesellers of tropical fish that are atleast that big or bigger. Metropet, Global Marine, Barnett's.....Yea I have been to these places! I'm not really stretching my imagination that much!

Why does AB need to proove he has a 20,000 sq. ft. facility again? Haha!

take care,
Sandeep

[kaceyo]

My God!!! Let it go. People can't even disuss the topics here without having to read this crap from anal children who don't have anything better to do than try to make themselves feel important.
Big surprise, the naysayers have followers. If the only point you can make is one thats already been made a hundred times then go away untill you grow a mind of your own.

Kacey

[fwscott]

to late to try and make nice with davec i guess raglanroad. he already has your number and knows what your made of. not much. you spilled it earlier on this thread when you attacked. best to get out kneepads now but too late i bet.

and elcid your right. not much bigger then 10x the length of you're living room by 20x. but you have to get rid of all your furnture and put nothing but tropical tanks in. still not that big compared to these stores you mention. i guess they only carry discuss too right??? no how hard it is to only carry discus and make a buck??? plenty hard. and then to say that you ship the bulk of your fish to asia. how do you think this ab could make a buck growing fish in the us where the costs are high by his own posts. then ship these high price fish to asia and pay shipping and compete with them with their free perfect water and cheap costs. i'll tell you how. he's telling you reverse. he has some tanks in his house and garage and he brings in fish from asia to sell hear. he starts his career on simply by putting down all asian fish to hurt that market and make room for him. then he can sell his asians by saying there local. thats also why its imprtant for him to show you his hachery. because its not there and isnt needed for importer. you ask him for pics you should see tons and tons of fry and tons of tanks. but no one is aloud into secret hatchery. how can he be so busy with all of those water changes and feeding personally 3x a day but still post here so much??? because its all in his house. thats why brigette and thom will only be able to describe his house and any tanks they saw there. you wait and see. no one but ab has ever seen hachery becuase its a figment of his mind. that doesnt mean he doesnt no the fish just that hes conning you with his claims of huge hachery and domestic fish. but if you dont care then you dont care. but some care and they will read and learn. i dont care if you believe me it will all come out in the wash. by then he will drop off the forum and sell under an other name. he is master of disguys and you guys eat it up.

[raglanroad]

fwsnot, you seem to know exactly the procedure. open wide.
If you don't care, then why be a fraud with the phony one-time poster thing?
it's cause you don't have what it takes to stay and take the heat. loser.

[Elcid]

OMG! I don't wanna become an AB supporter! I already told him what I think of him in a PM :)

But, personally I think we are imagining much more than AB has actually admitted to! Much of it is in our minds. When did AB state that his 20,000 facility consists of ONLY discus and that he ONLY exports discus to Asia? If his answer to Jeff is any indication, his facility is pretty bare right now ;)

Discus is a hobby to be enjoyed, but we've all been burned so often we just HATE SELLERS! is that what it is? :)

Peace,
Sandeep

[raglanroad]

Rag,

I'd hate to be a discus in your tank. :Dnope, you'd still have worms for breakfast