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View Full Version : mom wants discus+180g in backyard=tons of questions



Danyal
11-24-2005, 01:42 AM
ok, first off the tank
180g plexiglass tank
a little giant magnetic drive pump
4x40watt floresent lights
1 drilled overflow in corner
1 stand
that's it, the tank is just sitting there emepty

ok, now that you know about the equipment, the plans
i'm hoping to increase lighting and add driftwood and make a pretty low tech planted tank. i'm thinking of doing a community tank with discus(my mom loves them) i basically need help with setuping the tank. i have the knowledge to do a basic planted community tank but basically know nothing about discus keeping.
p.s. my mom may be using my account from time to time to ask questions herself and this is not a deffinite "we're going to put discus in the tank" thing just an option i'm exploring

wolfbane
11-24-2005, 01:56 AM
How will you heat the tank, if its outside? Discus like a comfy 84-86 degrees all the time.

Bainbridge Mike
11-24-2005, 02:16 AM
um, I think he means the tank is just sitting in the back yard now--but they will set it up inside the house. A planted tank is not a good choice for your first discus experience. You would be much better off with a bare bottom tank. Look through all the posts here, and you will find a lot of great and helpful information.

Mike

cobaltblue
11-24-2005, 02:45 AM
Hi danyal,

I would also agree when starting discus it would be best to start barebottom. But i wont be a hypocrite, cause i did the same thing. I started my discus experience with a 90g planted tank. I started with 6 fish and i learned the hard way with one dying early on. But anyway, heres some tips to get you started. Discus like warmer water, in the 84 to 86 range. You are going to need to do water changes like crazy. I do 40-50% every 2 days and sometime i feel thats not even enough. Water chemistry is a very key element. Good water chemistry in a planted tank with discus should be
close to ammonia=0, nitrites=0, nitrates around 10 or so. What type of filter will you be using? I use a fluval 404 cannister on mine, but you will need more
filtration than that on yours. I put a huge piece of driftwood as a centerpiece, which i am considering removing now as they always hide behind it.
The main thing i would stress is be prepared for alot of work with discus.
Water changes , water changes, water changes. Thats all you will hear.
There are many good posts on here on setting up a planted discus tank properly from people much more experienced than I.
Good luck.

KIWI13
11-24-2005, 04:31 AM
180gallons is a big tank to go planted, if you are not experienced with plants then you will experience problems. You will need to work on a CO2 firtilising and it will take a long time to get established. Plus if you get young discus they will get a little lost in here, If you guys have the means of buying some young adults, then I suggest you pick up 10 or so, keep the tank bare bottom with drift wood and potted plants if you like and learn to grow your fish first before you move to more complicated issues of having to deal with a biotope.

Good Luck and Welcome to SIMPLY DISCUS

Jason :)

Kindredspirit
11-24-2005, 07:22 AM
Welcome Danyal To Simply!


You have rec'vd very good advice below and there is tons more where that came from....Cruise around and read, learn and enjoy! There are good people here and know of what they speak....from their own experiences.....I just bought my 55gal last weekend and that, to me, is huge and im thinking you better by that Python for your wc! What do they say, KISS it? http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_7_103.gif Having no gravel, is keeping it simple and wise, at least it has been for me...and healthier for the discus~


HtH

Happy Turkey Day!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/8/8_5_18.gif


Marie~

Danyal
11-24-2005, 06:23 PM
ok sorry i'm taking so long, this is the 5th time i've tried to make a complete post but they keep getting deleted.

the tank is in the backyard at the moment but will be moved inside when we set it up and heaters are easily obtained so no problems there.
<You would be much better off with a bare bottom tank>
unfortunatly my mom has said no to a bare bottom tank.
so far based on what my mom has said and what i've been told here. would it be possible to maintain discus with
substrate: 1 1/2 inches of eco complete/black sand mix
plants: i don't want to mess with ferts and co2(because, truth be told, i'm not very experienced with plants) i'll stock with plants i know i can keep alive, westeria, java fern, moss, micro cyrpts, dwarf anubias and then add a little sample of something and if it does well keep it, if not ditch it, i don't want a heavy planted tank(well i do but i doubt it will last after i leave the house, unless i take the tank with me) or a biotope(also would be nice but again wouldn't last)
filtration: sump(atleast 40g probably larger) packed full of fast growing stem plants with the lights on a reverse light cyle(fogot exact term but light on sump go on when lights on main tank go off) to keep the water stable and the nitrates as low as possible.
water changes: 25% twice a week or more to keep the nitrates under 10ppm

could i set up the tank, cycle it(fishless of course), plant it and add a couple of small schools of tetra(neons, rummy nosed etc) then after it runs well for a couple of months try putting in a trio of discus and if they do well add more(if they don't do well scrap the idea and return them)

Greg Richardson
11-24-2005, 11:58 PM
What about some large Amazon Swords in Pots instead?
You'd be amazed how much of the tank they take up.
So cleaning is easy yet you still get some plants in it.

Very hard to understand until you do it but once you have discus in there the eyes focus on them.

I'd at least have 6 discus in there.

You don't want neon tetra's. They can't handle the heat.
Also can become lunch.
Buy some cardinals instead.

Danyal
11-25-2005, 01:03 AM
can do the cardinals, will try to talk mom into bb tank with pots.

Dave C
11-25-2005, 08:40 AM
I've done the 180g fully planted, high-tech scenario and now have two 120g low-tech planted tanks. I suggest you do what you're planning. Get pieces of driftwood and attach java fern, anubias to it. Have clumps of java moss attached to the driftwood or to sticks/stones to hold it in place. For substrate use sand rather then gravel and not much of it since you won't be planting in the substrate. Keep your lighting low-tech and low wattage, as you've outlined. Skip CO2 & fertilizer. Keep your temp at 80-80ºF. In the end you'll get a nice planted tank that can be cleaned easily. All of the plants can be moved for cleaning if necessary. Both of my 120g tanks have been chugging along for a year like this and the results are very satisfying with next to no work. The growth is slow, except for the java moss, which continues to dominate but is easily sold to hobbyists or LFS.

For Discus I'd get a school of 6 fish at least 4" in size. Then w/c won't be so critical and the lower temps will be fine as well. You won't have to feed massive amounts of food as growth won't be as big an issue.

Here's what my two tanks look like today...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/dclubine/DSCN8985.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/dclubine/DSCN8991.jpg

ronrca
11-25-2005, 11:09 AM
Id also suggest getting larger discus so the chances of stunting are not as great than with smaller discus. 4" is a good size and perhaps even bigger.

Wow Dave, those pics are nice! :thumbsup:

Kindredspirit
11-25-2005, 11:23 AM
Wow, Dave! I agree with Ron... now you have sand in there as opposed to gravel? Is that what they call substrate? I may have spelled that wrong! Is it better than gravel? I have like it better, at any rate....


Your discus are really nice and colorful as well~pretty cool!




Marie~:angel:

Dave C
11-25-2005, 11:40 AM
With sand there's no need to do deep cleaning. The sand particles are very tiny so the crap sits up on top of it. When you siphon you just hover the pipe over the sand, about 1/2" and any crap goes away.

Kindredspirit
11-25-2005, 11:43 AM
Very hard to understand until you do it but once you have discus in there the eyes focus on them.

I'd at least have 6 discus in there.

You don't want neon tetra's. They can't handle the heat.
Also can become lunch.
.
Greg that is such a true statement if I have ever heard one, I had never thought of it that way. I guess we are all worried about that show tank!

lol! I had 9 neon tetras when I first got my discus... nine....and one morning they were like all gone, and i searched http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_2_126.gifand blamed the cats, even tho..no...lol...i looked in filters, under shyt and nope....I came to the conclusion that they were indeed, lunch AND Dinner!! I was sad for them....They are fast lil suckers too, but obviously not fast enough~

Greg Richardson
11-25-2005, 12:35 PM
Marie. Yep I had some neons before I knew also. One by one they died from the heat though.

Some day I'd like to have a show tank.

But if he and his Mom just starting out with Discus I think planted tank in pots is good middle point instead of going with sand or gravel.

All it takes is one or the other gets busy without doing wc's and cleaning and boom before you know it you got sick fish.

I have both pot planted tank and BB.

My eyes focus on the discus in both tanks but the plants in pots in living room tank keeps the wife happy.

A happy wife is a goooooooooood thing, especially when she has two heavy duty rubbermaid garbage cans in her master bedroom.

I'm thinking of hanging some Christmas decorations on them just to see her reaction. LOL!

Danyal
11-25-2005, 04:27 PM
<For substrate use sand rather then gravel >
yea, i don't like gravel much because too much stuff gets stuck in it, my brackish tank has gravel and i never manage to get all of the stuff out but then my 5.5g cube has sand and all i have to do is move the siphon over the sand and everything gets sucked up and i have pretty little tank, clean tank(~10 nitrates vs ~20ppm nitrate in my BW)
<Id also suggest getting larger discus so the chances of stunting are not as great than with smaller discus.>
how so? why wouldn't they grow to full size?
<Yep I had some neons before I knew also. One by one they died from the heat though>
would 82 degrees be ok for discus?
<A happy wife is a goooooooooood thing,>
yes so is a happy mom
<I'm thinking of hanging some Christmas decorations on them just to see her reaction. LOL!>
hahaha that you be very cool, my mom says i have too many fish tanks(only two) i wonder what she'll say if i come with a 55g :)

Kindredspirit
11-25-2005, 04:27 PM
Marie. Yep I had some neons before I knew also. One by one they died from the heat though.

A happy wife is a goooooooooood thing, especially when she has two heavy duty rubbermaid garbage cans in her master bedroom.

I'm thinking of hanging some Christmas decorations on them just to see her reaction. LOL!

Greg!

That is funny!!http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_15_18.gif So , tell me, if crap just sits on top of the sand, wouldnt that be okay? You can just suck all of it up at wc....I have always wanted really white sand....that would look so cool dontcha think? And you do not have to stir it around, like gravel, Dave said....

Marie~

Danyal
11-25-2005, 04:37 PM
<if crap just sits on top of the sand, wouldnt that be okay? You can just suck all of it up at wc....I have always wanted really white sand....that would look so cool dontcha think? And you do not have to stir it around, like gravel, Dave said....>
yea that's why i love sand soo much, is it looks natural, looks extremely nice, is easy to clean and is a great biological filter. you do have to stir it around if you have a sand bed deeper than 3"(sometimes it's a good idea to do so even if is is less) because the grains of sand are so small that the bottom layer becomes anerobic and while it reduces nitrates it also produces gasses that are not too great for the fish if it gets too much of a build up. a little bit is fine because most of it escapes throught the surface but large amounts end up with messing with the water. MTS are a great way to stir up substrate(they also eat algae and extra fish food) or you can just use a chopstick or skewer or something similar. thats why i'm thinking of 1 1/2 inches of sand for the main tank and about 4~5 inches of sand for the sump.

ronrca
11-25-2005, 05:44 PM
<Id also suggest getting larger discus so the chances of stunting are not as great than with smaller discus.>
how so? why wouldn't they grow to full size?
Smaller discus need a lot of food and excellant water for good growth. While you may be able to maintain good water, the feeding is the problem as they will be competing for food with their tank mates. While discus are aggresive feeders, they are slow eaters. They pick at their food, spit it out, and so on. By that time, the food is gone. With larger discus, the food is as necessary for growth anymore.


that's why i love sand soo much, is it looks natural, looks extremely nice, is easy to clean and is a great biological filter.

I would not consider the substrate a great bio fitler however as it has very limited water flow. The best bio filter is going to be your filters and sumps.

Danyal
11-25-2005, 06:51 PM
very true, if you had a tank with a sump that was filled with bioballs or ceramic ring or something similar then it would be a better bio filter but if you don't have a tank set up with a sump then substrate it main bio filter(unless you have a HUGE HOB filter with tons of bio media)

ronrca
11-25-2005, 07:00 PM
The main factor in nutrient conversion in the nitrification cycle is water flow. Any filter will provide better nutrient conversion than the substrate unless your using UGF. This is because of the flow rate thru substrate is very limited and even more so with sand. Many HOB filters are providing a gallons/hour rate of flow something the substrate can not. One question becomes how much bio media do you need to handle the nutrient levels in the nitrification cycle? Depends on the bio load. More media doesnt mean more bio filter, just more area to colonize but to what extend is the media colozied? 50%, 80%, 100%? Hard to measure. The bio filter will grow until it reaches a equilibrum with the nutrients being produced and not larger. This is why will adding more fish to do so at 4-6month intervals to let the bio 'catch up'. Sand will go ananerobic much quicker than anerobic especially if deep.

Btw, there are many bb tanks with HOB filters or even just sponge filters.

Danyal
11-25-2005, 10:07 PM
<Sand will go ananerobic much quicker than anerobic especially if deep.>
please explain, areobic water is water that is oxygen rich, anerobic means that the water has low levels of oxygen, anerobic bacteria exists in low oxygen water and converts nitrates to gases, the simplest way to have anerobic bacteria in a tank is to use a deep sand bed

ronrca
11-25-2005, 11:55 PM
:thumbsup:
I perhaps didnt word that correctly. It should read:

Sand will go ananerobic much quicker than anerobic especially if deep compared to gravel.

Sand, because of its small particle size will have less flow thru it compared to gravel. It compacts much easier than gravel therefore allowing low 02 lvls to exist. This doesnt mean you cant use sand. Just have to be cautious with the depth.

Danyal
11-26-2005, 02:28 AM
thats one reason why i like it.