135G for Discus

[Don]

Hello Members,

A newbie interested in Discus here.

I have a 135G in my dining room and am considering converting it to an adult Discus tank. I recently installed new tile on the floor and had to finally take the tank down (obvious reasons..lol), it had been set up for 10+ years successfully and has seen everything from raising Oscars, Parrot Fish, Community, etc.

I have well water which is extemely hard, high phosphates, etc. and found it necesary to use a RO system (Maxxima) and re-condition the water. I've been successful (after the RO purchase) using an UGF with 4 PH's (402's) and a Magnum 350 for the many years this tank has been set up and am considering keeping the same filtration systems for Discus. However, after reading some of the posts here have concerns and wanted to get some information.

BB is not an option for this tank due to personal asthetics and location, it is a major show piece in this room. A live planted tank with gravel looks beautiful but I don't have the knowledge and experience to venture in this direction just yet. More reading and research required for a possible future conversion. The irony - I like and try to keep the natural look with artificials, what's wrong with this picture....lol

So whats your opinion. Can I keep Discus in a healthy environment with a UGF, Magnum filter, Gravel, and plastic plants with proper maintenace?

I'm currently in the process of setting this tank backup, its still empty. I just resealed all the tank corners as a precautionary measure. The tank sat outside for several weeks due to the flooring and schedule conflicts and the corners dried out. It looks like algae and "crud" worked in behind the corner beads, thus the resealing.

I've already purchased all new impellers and magnets for the PH's and Magnum and getting ready to re-install everything. Maybe.... Opinions welcome.

Thanks

Don

[candyl70]

Don,

Welcome to Simply!! You will find some great people here that have a lot of experience and knowledge that they will pass on to you. I am just starting out myself, but have learned so much since i started frequenting this site, I am sure that you will too. :)


If you are going to have adult discus, a bb in not nessesary. It is only when young because they require so many feedings per day.

As far as your equipment goes, it all sounds good. I personally would not use the UGF because alot of junk gets stuck down inside of it, and it would have to be taken out and all the gravel cleaned, and as you know, that is no easy task... lol

Others will be along to correct me if i'm wrong and give you their personal experiences. So good luck, and welcome!!


Candy

[Carol_Roberts]

No to the undergravel filter. You can use the canisters. I would also suggest adults as lack of water changes can not affect their growth. Plastic plants are better than real - you can pull them out and rinse them off under the faucet ;)

[Moon]

Have you given any thoughts to having a BB tank with potted plants and driftwood?
I too have well water and very hard with a ph of 8.2. I raise all my discus in this water. Only breeding pairs in seperate tanks get RO water. If you want to have a show tank just use your well water.

[Don]

Thanks all for the replies and welcome.

I have to tell you I'm a UGF believer and don't know if it's just my maintenance technique or what. I have not had the "crash" problem with using a UGF for over 10 years in constant use. My stand has an open bottom and I can see up under each of the 4 UGF panels. There is no build up that I let get out of hand. If a far corner starts collecting debris I'll periodically sift the gravel over it to increase flow and evacuate it up and out the riser tube via the PH. The previous inhabitants would periodically change the gravel around and create inconsistencies in the flow underneath. I monitor this frequently and approximately once every two months (more as needed) will lightly vacumn the gravel over one panel. Alternating panels each time so that everything is sifted and recirculated at least once a year. I also alternate the canister maintenace with the gravel so as not to disturb to much of the biological filtration at a time. I have not been able to detect any Amonia, Nitrate/trite spikes at all using this technique. I typically run carbon with a filter sock in the magnum between panel cleanings. When it comes time for a UGF panel sift I'll change over to the Micron filter a few days before and run this for a couple days after to help polish the water after I've disturbed everything. After that a fresh batch of carbon in the media canister again. I have quick disconnects on the Magnum and can clean and change everthing in less than 10 minutes, very easy.

My water changes are fairly simple also and frequency is not a problem. I'll make a 30 gallon batch of water in a rubbermaid in the basement a few days before a change. I'll condition, circulate, aerate, and bring it up to temp. I have a plumbing system set up to drain and pump the new water up to the tank. The frequency varied by the inhabitants and bioload in the tank. Anywhere from once a month for a lightly loaded community tank to once a week for Oscars. They were quite a messy species I might say ..lol Any evaporation water is replenished with straight RO water. My RO system can make 30gal a day if necesary but I do not want to have to perform daily changes, weekly is acceptable but not daily. I not able to commit that much time. The tank is in a high traffic/profile area and is constantly viewed and under scrutiny. You can tell by their behavior after a while when something may be out of whack and needs attention, even before the water testing starts.

Moon - I wish I could use straight tap/well water. When I first built the house and set the tank up using well water in 1990 I had constant problems with diatoms and algae. My PH is also much higher than most of the LFS in my area and presented additional acclimation challenges. The RO system eliminated the diatom and algae problems and virtually eliminated the periodic and unexplained death which would happen. You wake up in the morning and find a floater (or sinker) for unknown reasons... I was even having problems with hardy species. I am going to incorporate some pieces of driftwood into my new aquascaping. I currently have lots of rocks, ledges, and overhangs and want to bring some driftwood into the picture.

Now that I've explained a little of my personal maintenance techiques and care for a UGF and success I might add, is this still not a viable or recommended option for Discus. I must admit I've had freshwater tanks for 30+ years on UGF's and do not know how to prevent anerobic areas in the gravel from developing without one...:confused: 30+ years of FW fish and still feel like a beginner.:D

Thanks
Don

[candyl70]

Don,

You should be changing your water at least once a week. Your plans for aging the water sound great. Since you will have adults, the water changes aren't as critical, but you still have to keep on top of them, as well as cleaning your UGF.

As far as using carbon in your canister, do you leave it in there? Alot of discus keepers only use carbon to take meds out of the water. Many ppl think that carbon takes nutrients out of the water, and is closely related to hole in the head disease.

The only other problem that i am seeing is that you said your tank is in a high traffic area, discus don't like all the commotion alot of times. Especially when they are new. You should probably put some sort of background on the back of the tank as well as the sides.

You are doing a great job so far...


Candy

[Carol_Roberts]

I've kept and bred many types of Africans, goldfish and Koi. Discus are different than other tropical fish. To grow and thrive they need very clean conditions. The easiest way to keep them healthy is large water changes in a bare bottom tank. I've been answering questions on this forum since it's inception. This is a frequent question asked by newcomers. Many think we are crazy and try to keep discus just as you propose. Few are successful. Some will post in subsequent months that we were right after all and they have switched to large water changes and bare bottom tanks. Many are never heard from again and I suspect their discus are dead.

Your best bet with your conditions is to try a pair of adult discus and see how they do before investing more. Another option is to grow out a batch of 6 - 8 juveniles in a barebottom 55 with an aqua clear 110 or even just a cycled sponge filter. When they are grown try adding 4 or 5 of them to your show tank and sell the remainder.

[wolfbane]

Hi Don, I used to run UGFs in my tropical tanks too, had great swords and Java fern! but when I borke down the tanks to move them, I gotta tell you,... it was so bad under there! Kept Chocolate cichlids in a 55, and tetras too, the bottom was a mess.
When I wanted my discus in a planted tank, I tossed the UGF, have 2+ inches of gravel, no probs, water params are great! Tank has only been up for 6 months, so we'll see. I do weekly water changes of 60%.

[justafishguy]

I would have to say ditch the UGF. I have kept FW and SW for about 10yrs. The first half all UGF, but since I got rid of them the tanks are a lot cleaner and easier to clean. I just keep about 1 inch of gravel...enough to keep the fake plants down and run a wet/dry filter. In your case, a canister or hangon would work perfectly. Plus, cleaning once a week has worked OK for me and I find it a lot easier to get the gravel clean by just having a thin layer. Also, as Carol always says "keep a clean filter".

Good Luck!

[ronrca]

:mad: :angry: :flame: :fried: UGF :whip:

I also agree with the ugf! Believe me, you will have less problems without it! ;)

[Don]

OK...you all are talking me out of putting the UGF back in. My hesitation is that it's worked for me for so long, and why fix what isn't broken.... I have to accept that this is a new species for me to maintain requiring new techniques. You are the husbandry experts and have more experience than I with Discus. Anyone want to buy 4 new magnets and impellers for 402's, never used.:D :D

I like the idea of a thin layer of gravel just to keep the plants anchored with weekly cleaning, works for me aesthetically also.

If I remove the UGF and all the power heads my flow and circulation will drastically be cut down in the tank. The way I currently have my Magnum set up is with a pickup tube and strainer on the left back side of the tank with the return configured as a spray bar. The spray bar is on the top right side of the tank running front to back spraying across the length of the tank. I can't envision this being enough circulation and aeration for a 6' tank, one PH has almost as much flow as the Magnum. Will it be??

Now that the Magnum becomes my primary filtration source what configuation should I run this in?? Do I run the micron cartridge full time or the media canister with a sock and filled with what now?? And when I clean and service the Magnum will I not be destroying/removing the beneficials and cause a mini cycle everytime? Please tell me I can use the micron cartridge, again I just bought a 3-pack to stock up on. You can only soak and rinse them so many times...

Candy - My high traffic area comment is relative to the entire house. It actually doesn't see that much activity now that my oldest daughter is out and married and my youngest is off to college and only home on the weekends. I do have a background I put on the back of the tank, but not the sides.

Sorry for all the questions but I want to do this right the first time. This poses new techniques and maintenance requirements for me that I'm not familiar with. Guess I was kind of an old school guy (UGF's) and need to re-educate myself.

Thanks
Don

[justafishguy]

I would add a powerhead to your tank and direct the flow toward the intake of your filter. I have one powerhead in my 75gal with discus and they seem to enjoy the flow. Just make sure to deflect the flow. I have mine setup with the fan attachment on and aim it towards the front glass pushing towards my overflow intake. Works fine. As for the filter you will want something to grow the bacteria on, which you should rarely ever change. Plus, you will want something in there to take solid waste particles out of the water, and I would recommend cleaning this weekly with your WCs.

[justafishguy]

What are your thoughts on adding a biowheel pro to your filter as a return? This would also improve the bio load of the filter.

[ronrca]

A 135G can be tricky to get enough water movement thru the tank to ensure uniformity. I just notice that from my 90G planted only using an XP3 filter. I use a small power head inside to help with the movement. Another idea that Im going to be trying out are UGJ (Undergravel Jets).

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=97160
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/ug_jets.php
An idea you might like! ;)

Imo, Id go with a sump or wet/dry setup for your bio filteration.
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_wet_dry.php
http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_sumps.php

[Moon]

Ron
My 125g tank is a grow out tank and the only filtration I have is 4 sponge filters. It's been operational for about a year with 15 discus and doing well. My reason for not having power filters is that my fish room has a central air system with a blower and regular daily water changes removes all waste and un eaten food.

[ronrca]

Nice....big.....tank! :thumbsup:
The simplicity and ease of bb tanks.

Don doesnt want a BB tank though and perhaps no daily wc's.

[Moon]

BB tanks with potted plants are quite attractive and easy to maintain. The only problem is to find plants that will survive hard water and high temps. I am experimenting with a few.

[Don]

Thought I'd update you to where I'm at right now. I decided to go with a planted tank after all and have upgraded the lighting and filtration systems which should arrive tomorrow. The decor will be driftwood, lots of live plants, and a few rock accents sprinkled in. The substrate will be 2" of Fluorite covered by 1-2" of inert coarse pool sand. I'm going to hold off on the discus a few months until I get everything up and stablilized with weekly water changes. I'll start off with the cleanup crews and planned tank mates (cardinals, etc.) for the Discus, but will wait until the tank matures and I settle into a successful routine before I introduce the main inhabitants.

Thanks to all of your recommendation the UGF is definitely history and is now collecting dust :) :). I ordered the new Eheim Pro 3 2080 with a substrate media kit and it should be more than adequate. I went with a pieced together T-5 lighting system using 3ea. 80W bulbs (6000K, 6500K, and 11K), Icecap 660 ballast and SLS reflectors. X-Mas is coming early for me this year :D

It will probably still be another 2-3 weeks before I can actually start the aquascaping and filling the tank back up. I have to prep the driftwood and haven't even picked out the initial plants yet. I'll let that cycle and settle for a few weeks before I introduce the initial fish crews. I'm hoping that with the "horsepower" of this new filter, the plants, and weekly water changes I should be able to keep and maintain the water quality necessary for adult Discus.

Now I get to look for a 29Gal that I'm going to use as a BB quarantine tank, afterall I now have lots of powerheads left over which I can use to run a sponge filter(s) for it.

Thanks
Don

[pcsb23]

Don,
If you haven't filled it yet, have you thought about putting in an undergravel heater cable?? More money but it helps lots with the plants.
Just a thought, happy Christmas!

[Alight]

You realize you have stepped off the deep end? Plants are harder to care for than Discus!! And the combination--exponentially harder.

Do as I say, not as I do, and reconsider before your are doomed!

OK, now that the warning has been given--go to the Showtanks/Biotypes threads and learn as much as you can (see Shalu's tanks for inspiration). You're going to need CO2 injection, or be prepared for lots of different types of algae than you've ever experienced (again, do as I say, not as I do).

You could hook up sponges to some of your power heads, if you're looking for a use for them. Makes great mechanical and biological filtration. Read the threads on prefilters.

http://www.plantedtank.net/

Is a great place to learn about planted tanks.

Read, read, read about Discus on this site.

You did the right thing getting rid of your UGFs. Not mentioned are the experiences of those with UGFs and gravel with Discus. What seems to happen is that things grow in the gravel which has all that mulm in it that don't affect other fish, but make Discus sick and kill them. Things like gill flukes, and bacteria.

I'd still turn back if I were you, but if you want to see some of my folly, go to http://www.tropicalfishgallery.com/photo-gallery/index.php?cat=10014

I'll have to post some new pics. The fish are now 6-7 inch adults, and I have tons of babies in other tanks. I have a picture of a pair carrying fry on their backs in the community tank!! (Of course the fry got picked off soon after that).

[Don]

pcsb23 - I've read mixed reviews on various forums with the substrate heater cables and decided not to. Although I may upgrade in the future to a heater contoller. I use two individual heaters now and can never quite fully synchronize the settings. One always seems to work a little harder than the other.

Alight - Oh yes, I've stepped off alright, right into the abyss. Shalu's and others both on this forum and the plantedtank.net actually did inspire me to go this route. I've been reading and researching all I can in my spare time. I'm going to take this slow and make sure I can keep the easier and lower light/nutrient species first before I even think about introducing the first discus. I expect it to be several months at least. Beautiful tank BTW or should I say "folly". How long has it been running? I can't turn back now!

Don

[Alight]

This tank has been running for a year, now. I've added a very nice Amazon Sword (huge) and some Rotala Magenta, that are doing very well. The other plants grew and grew and had to be trimmed and trimmed (actually, still have to trim every other day). It still gets to be a jungle now and then when I get lazy.

I highly recommend a bristle nose pleco, and ottos. I also have Siamese Algae Eaters and Angelicus loaches (the latter to take care of the snails that came in with one of the plants). The SAE's started out good to take care of algae, but have gotten big, fat and lazy and now eat mostly discus food.

I'm considering Amano Shrimp for the last vestiges of algae, but they've gotten mixed reviews as to whether they would help with the algae, or end up as Discus food.

[pcsb23]

Don,
The heater cable is low wattage and on all the time, on its own it cannot heat the water to the desired temp, you still need water heaters, the idea is to slightly warm the substrate to draw down nutrients etc, not so sure about that just know it seems to work and I do agree with Alight, definitely teh deep end - but worth the effort in my opinion.
Whatever you do I'm sure it'll work out fine as you have planned properly and thats half the battle won. Good Luck. Paul.

[Don]

A quick note to let you know where I'm at, it's getting exciting! Pretty hectic over the holidays but I did make some progress.

No water yet but almost. Actually its been filled and drained again for the filter and plumbing installation and checkout. Again no leaks so everythings plumbed, wired, and it's back in it's final resting place with a 100% fluorite substrate and lots of driftwood "scaped" in.

The new T-5 lights have been installed and wired into the canopy along with a new timer. I also decided to refinish and seal the inside with 3 coats of polyurethane. The 80w T-5 bulbs with the reflectors sure do put out a lot of light. After the filter was plumbed I ran everything for a few days to see what effect the lights had on the water temp. I didn't know if I was going to need a fan or two in the canopy. I filled it up and stabilized the temp at 82 degrees without the lights. Turned the lights on a couple days later and the temp only went up 2 degrees to 84. And this with the lights 3" from the water and a full glass hood on top. So I think I'll be OK without a fan in the canopy, we'll see this summer.

The new Eheim 2080 and substrate kit also arrived and wow this thing is HUGE. It has a quick disconnect flow control head for the 1 input and 2 return lines. The first Eheim I've owned so I can't compare but it is amazingly quiet, should provide more than enough capacity. Huge media trays for mechanical and biological filtration. Good bye UGF!!! Maybe I'll have a burial in the backyard or something for it...:D

Starting to work on a CO2 system, the plant selections, and water parameters so hopefully in a few more weeks I'll have the initial planting done and everything up and running.

Don

[redmelon]

Good idea to ditch the undergravel filter.

I have had gravel and driftwood in my tanks for years and no problems. I tried out a planted tank but the maintenance was too much for me so I stopped with the plants. As stated in a previous post, the plants are harder to maintain than the discus. I now only keep tanks with gravel and driftwood. It's real easy to maintain with the python. I syphon the gravel once a week and it works out great. As far as sufficient water and temperature balancing in a tank that size, I would add an Aquaclear 110 on top of having the canister filter. I run a canister and an aquaclear filter on all my tanks. The combination hasn't failed me yet. Good luck!

[Vince+Carrie]

We have a 135 gallon planted community discus tank and really enjoy it. Our setup includes 2x2026 Eheim cannister filters and UV steralization. We do water changes twice a week so its a lot of work too:

http://www3.telus.net/shayah/cabinet.jpg

All the fish seem very happy. Our Blue Rams spawn on a weekly basis:

http://www3.telus.net/shayah/rambabies.jpg

We've trained the discus to eat from our hands or feeding cones. They are very curious, friendly, and appear to enjoy their surroundings.

http://www3.telus.net/shayah/redturquoise.jpg

We haven't had the setup running for long enough to personally speak about the long haul. Our pet store has a very well established planted discus tank that is overgrown and doesn't appear to be maintained as often as most people would recommend. The discus in there are HUGE and very healthy looking though.

[pcsb23]

Vince + Carrie, nice big tank, I like planted display tanks and real good photos too!
Paul.

[candyl70]

Vince,
Is that the fish from your first post? The little discus? He is sooo cute, and your right, his eyes look much better from a different view point. Nice pics!! http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_13_13.gif

I love your rams... do their fry make it in the planted tank? Or do they get eaten up?


Candy

[Vince+Carrie]

Thanks! Our baby rams have never survived for more than a day or so. We usually drop some java moss in there to give them a chance but we haven't had any make it yet.

The discus in the picture isn't our hifin (I think it would be called a red turquoise?). Once I get my camera out of the shop I'll post some pictures of our other discus. For now heres another shot of our Blue Rams:

http://www3.telus.net/shayah/ramfish.jpg

[cobaltblue]

Thats an awesome picture of a Ram. I love the colouring.

Hey Marie, those would look great in your 55. Some rams to mix in with your discus. You might even find some lavender ones....YOu could do that instead of those african cichlids you were looking at a while back.;)

[Don]

Hey nice pictures everyone, beautiful tank and Rams. I finally filled my tank and now have a picture to share. I hope this works, first attempt at uploading a picture. This was taken two days after filling. I know, it's not going to win any aquascaping contests but it is my first attempt. It will "mature" and evolve as time goes on.

This weekend I just added 6 Otto's, 6 Amano and 6 Cherry Shrimp for a clean up crew and help the algae that has just started. One casualty so far, a Cherry I found this morning in the gravel. The Otto's are going crazy and are constantly eating. Their bellys are so big they look like they're going to burst...lol

I now understand why many people think Amazon Swords are invasive weeds. Mine is getting a new leaf about every other day.

I decided to run both the new Eheim 2080 and the Magnum 350 concurrently. Eventually I'll use the Magnum to inject CO2 and it's spray bar for a little surface agitation. I've already had to move the Magnum spray bar in the picture (middle) to a horizontal position near the surface. The surface was stagnating and building up a lot of protein and what not.

It will still be a while before I introduce any Discus. Right now I'm focusing on stabilizing everything including the water parameters, but think I'm off to a pretty good start.

[justafishguy]

Looks like a nice tank. Like your driftwood too

[discus2010]

yes nice tank and pictures i love the blue rams and their young! good luck with the rams and the discus.;)

[pcsb23]

If you intend to run CO2 and a spray bar for agitation you will effectively be defeating the object of CO2 addition as it will be driven off. You will need to keep an eye on your ph also!

Nice tank btw, good structure to start with, like the wood lots too! also I like swords!!!!

Paul.