HELP Needed on Small Planted Tank

[venom_99]

It's been quite some time since I've posted on this site, but I was hoping that someone might be able to assist me. I've been keeping fish for 20 years, but only in the past few years have I tried my hand at a planted tank.

In any case, my ultimate goal is to set up a 125 gal tank in my living room, densely planted with discus as the centerpiece. I've spent a lot of time reading through this site, and think I may be able to tackle this project. But, prior to making the big investment into the tank (and fish), I thought I would give my green thumb a try with my current tank. However, I can't seem to get a handle on getting the plants to thrive, and was hoping someone could help to diagnose the problem. In particular, the root growth of the swords is abysmal (almost non-existent), and I can't understand why.

Here's a breakdown of my setup:

Tank Geometry
20 gallon high (10"x20" footprint, ~24" high)

Tap Water Quality
pH: ~7.0
kH: ~4.0 dkH
gH: ~4.0 dkH
Nitrate: 0 ppm
Water is usually passed through a PUR water filter during tank water changes, but doesn’t affect the pH, kH, or gH.

Substrate:
Seachem Flourite ~1.5” deep – just put in ~1 month ago

Filtration:
Marineland Eclipse 1 hood/filter combo with biowheel
Filter cartridge (synthetic pad & carbon) replaced every 1-2 weeks

Lighting:
2 T8 Phillips 5000K fluorescent bulbs (from big-box store, replace 2 months ago), overdriven with 4-bulb electronic ballast
11 hour on interval (recently bumped up to 12 hours on)
Lux output is not known

Heating:
50W heater submersible – temperature constant 80 F

Bio Load:
3 Blue Gouramis (~3” length)
1 Gold Gourami (~2” length)
3 small Tiger Barbs (~0.5” length)
4 Cherry Barbs (~1” length)
1 Pleco (~3” length)
1 Green Cory Cat (~1” length)
Fish are fed only once per day in moderation

Plants:
Anacharis
2 species of Swords
Mondo Grass

Plant Supplements:
Nutrafin Natural Plant System CO2, recharged monthly (yeast-based non-adustable flow rate)
No additional liquid or substrate supplements

Tank Water Quality
~20% water change weekly (sometimes every other week if something comes up)
pH: 7.2-7.5 (depending on kH – this morning is 7.1 w/4 dkH, which yields ~10 ppm CO2 according to the krib)
kH: 3-6 dkH (typically requires a monthly baking soda supplement to avoid pH crashes)
gH: 6 dkH
Ammonia: 0 ppm
Nitrite: 0 ppm
Nitrate: 20-30 ppm (the plants aren't assimilating this, which points to a plant growth problem)
Chelated Iron: not detectable

[wolfbane]

How many watts light is there?

[nacra99]

Hi Venom... Dearborn huh..... I used to take classes @ U of M dearborn.. nice place =)

Anyway, If you are using 2 x 24" x T8 you probably have 1.7 Watts per gallon (2 x 17 / 20 ). Which is a little bit on the low side . IMO (others might disagree) it is enough to keep plants alive, but if you want to really have them thirive and proliferate, you might want to up the wattage and intensity a bit. You'll know if you don't have enough intensity if you have a "brown algae" problem on your swords". The grasses also require moderate to high lighting.

You might also consider switching to low light plants like java fern and anubias.

hth
Marc

[pcsb23]

You say that you use a bio wheel, planted tanks don't benefit from the surface being disturbed too much, drives CO2 out as I understand it. Plants need a few things to help them grow (or even survive) one thing for sure is they need iron. Add some chelated iron to your setup and add a couple of reflectors to your tubes too and that should help.

When you come to do your 125 tank it will be easier (honest bigger is better!) but what will really help is putting in an undergravel heater cable, the low voltage stuff is the best/safest. Also it can take plants a little while to settle down too!

Hope that helps some.
Paul.

[ValorG]

are u planning on a high tech tank with lots of higher end plants or low tech tank wit low light req plants? anywayz mondo grass isnt a true aquatic plant, get dwarf sagittaria, simmilar in appearance, but thinker leaves. this site isnt the best for knowing everything u need to know for planted tanks. go to plantedtank.net. great site

[venom_99]

Thanks for the quick responses on this topic. To answer a few questions:

Lighting: There are two 15W T8 bulbs, being overdriven by a 4-bulb electronic ballast. When I installed the O/D ballast, the light intensity increased, but I do not know what the actual lux output is now. I can only assume that I have more than 15W being burned by each bulb, but I have no measured data. There is no real reflector in the hood, which could be part of the problem, too.

Biowheel: I've read similar comment about surface disturbances, but also recently read several good posts here and somewhere else that shows data to support that this probably isn't a huge issue. CO2 levels in the morning showed around 10 ppm, which isn't a lot, but it is better than ambient air.

Plants: There is no brown algae on the swords. In fact, there is a little bit of the hard, tough green algae starting to form on the tall swords. The small swords have leaves that are really light in color. I'm no expert in aquatic plants, and just started to try them out. Unfortunately, I haven't found a LFS that carries a large number of species, and I seem to be limited primarily to the Petsmarts and Petcos in the area.

Iron Supplement: Although the water column doesn't have traces of chelated iron, I guess I expected that the roots would be good since the substrate is 100% Flourite.

Future Tank: I was hoping that things get easier with the big tank, considering nothing is yet purchased. I'll be able to spec out the appropriate equipment in advance, whereas this 20 gal tank now has been around for 15 years or so. I've been trying some things like changing the substrate, different filters, O/D ballast, etc. in the hopes of finding the root cause. I haven't found it yet.


I'm still at least 6 months away from starting any big tank, but I'm hoping in that timeframe to have gotten a good grasp on aquatic plants. I'm not there yet, but thanks for the link to the plantedtank.net!

[ValorG]

well for planted tanks, generally bigger is harder

[diablocanine]

You are on the right track, just need to tweak your stuff a little. Need to know the output of your lighting, although I think is is sufficient for that tank. I am not a fan of ODNO and personally think it is a fire hazard but the folks @ ThePlantedTank can help you figure out the wattage. Not matching lighting/CO2/ferts will lead to problems, and you are experiencing problems. Your CO2 is way low, will lead to algae. I use pressurized and yeast CO2 in my tanks, first sign that the yeast CO2 needs recharged is algae growth for me. I have the same setup as you in a 37 gallon tank with no problems. But, I limit water turbulence to prevent CO2 outgassing and dose ferts daily. I use the PMDD method (search for PMDD, you will find a lot of info on the krib). How are you checking your CO2? Are you calculating using KH/PH? Keep in mind that high phosphate levels throw off these tests and high phosphates will help algae prosper if the tank is not properly fertilized. Properly fertilized the plants should take care of the phosphates and out compete the algae. You will find more info @ ThePlantedTank. The 2 leading culprits of CO2 outgassing are bio-wheels and spray bars, not a huge issue if you have a monitored pressurized CO2 system, and you don't. I believe you will see better root development soon since you added the Flourite, good substrate. Get a bottle of Flourish Excel to dose the tank, it will help with the low CO2 and provide needed nutrients for the plants (can be used with PMDD if you choose to do so). No more than 12 hours of light a day, including any sunlight that hits the tank. You for sure need reflectors. You can try using reflective mylar (I have a bunch and can send some if you wish). Another trick is painting the inside of the hood/canopy white (flat white, it has proven more reflective that gloss, imagine that). Or, you can get a reflector, if you choose this route just get a light/reflector/enclosure at:

http://www.ahsupply.com/

I have 9 planted tanks and actually find that my large tanks are easier to take care of than the smaller ones. It depends on how you set them up, plants and equipment used!

[Wahter]

Tank Geometry
20 gallon high (10"x20" footprint, ~24" high)


This tank is on the tall side - you will probably need some stronger lighting depending on what type of plants you are going to keep



Tap Water Quality
Water is usually passed through a PUR water filter during tank water changes, but doesn’t affect the pH, kH, or gH.


What does the PUR water filter do?



Substrate:
Seachem Flourite ~1.5” deep – just put in ~1 month ago


That's fine.



Filtration:
Marineland Eclipse 1 hood/filter combo with biowheel
Filter cartridge (synthetic pad & carbon) replaced every 1-2 weeks


carbon has a nasty habit of being an equal opportunity offender. It will remove things out of the water which the plants could use.



Plants:
Anacharis
2 species of Swords
Mondo Grass


Anacharis - generally likes cooler water

Mondo grass - more of a bog plant that lasts for awhile when submerged; later it won't do so well

Which species of sword plants did you get? Keep in mind the "brazillian sword" is more of a bog plant than a true aquatic plant. (that's why you never see it in photos of planted tanks from either Europe or Asia). Also keep in mind that sword plants (echinodorus) are for the most part, grown emersed at the growers and will need time to acclimate to being fully submerged.



Plant Supplements:
Nutrafin Natural Plant System CO2, recharged monthly (yeast-based non-adustable flow rate)
No additional liquid or substrate supplements


You might want to check and see how much iron, potassium, etc... is in your water. You could supplement with some liquid fertilizers (or buy the dry stuff and make your own).

HTH,


Walter

[pcsb23]

Overdriving your tubes will 'use up' he valuable spectrum of light quicker than normal usage will so you'll have to change them more frequently, I drive mine normally and change every 6 months, so probably every 4 months for overdriven, on your new tank go for a T5 luminaire, these are much more powerful than T8s and they last longer, I have T5s on a Marine reef system with corals in and it does the job nicely, only change em once a year too!.

A weekly dose of trace elements will help your plants, I have found the discus trace stuff from the people who make R/O right has most of the elements plants need too so thast what I use, wins on two fronts, it helps the discus and the plants, I also test for chelated iron weekly and add a dose if needed. BTW in my humble opinion swords are excellent plants so stick with em.

I only ever use carbon if I need to remove something from the water like meds or colour, maybe once every three months I'll run carbon for a couple of days but I use a UV steriliser to deal with bacterial nasties and pathogens. It seems to help with any 'algae' thats free floating too although thats not the reason to run one.

HTH,
Paul.

[venom_99]

Thanks for all the great replies -- this is exactly the type of advice I am looking for. Here's a few things that come to mind when reading your comments:

The tank is a little on the tall side, which could be a problem for low height plants. I chose the Ecplise hood with 2 15W bulbs for primarily for asthetics, since the tank is located in a dining room. This hood was installed about 1 year ago, and it replaced an older hood with only one 15W bulb. At the same time, the tank was moved to a different room (with virtually no sunlight). I thought that overdriving the bulbs would be my easiest attempt at getting enough light. An article on overdriven bulbs state that my setup (4 bulb ballast into 2 bulbs) would result in a 50% increase in wattage, yielding a total of ~45 W (2.25 W/gal).

The PUR water filter is one that attaches to the faucet, mainly to clean up the drinking water. It contains carbon, so I know it will remove the chlorine. It will also remove lead and other contaminants, but it doesn't affect the gH or kH. My house has 60-year old galvanized pipes, and this filter is just a little precaution against all that "stuff" in the pipes. I won't drink the water from the tap, so I won't put it in with the fish.

The filter media is changes every 1-2 week, so I hope that's quick enough to avoid leaching from the carbon. At that frequency, the water stays reasonably clean. Now that the substrate has established itself, I may remove the biowheel and monitor the pH/kH.

The CO2 number I quoted of 10ppm is based on the pH/kH relationship. I have no test kit for phosphate, and my LFSs don't carry it. Like I mentioned, I'm not dosing with any liquid ferts, but based on what you all are telling me, I might run out to the LFS to buy a bottle of Flourish Excel tonight.

I'm very inexperienced when it comes to the plant species, so I'll be spending the mornings this weekend on plantedtank.net. Thanks again for the link. I'm not sure what species I have in the tank, so I'll try to attach a picture file to this note.

I'll ask a few more questions:

What other test kits should I purchase? I currently have pH, kH, gH, NH3, Nitrite, Nitrate, and Iron.

Does anyone know where I might find/rent/borrow a light meter that can be used for an aquarium?


Thanks again for all the help!!! Again, this is my test case for my future big tank, and I want to be sure I have a good source of information before I jump in.

[venom_99]

That picture I mentioned is attached...

[diablocanine]

Eclipse hoods look nice, two problems though. Lights are in the front (bet you have your swords planted in the back) and no reflectors. You can go to Home Depot, Lowes, etc and purchase a T5 light that can mount on the lid behind the lights, will help get light to the back of the tank. I think they are around $15, make sure it has a compatible bulb for plant growth and a cover. Get rid of the carbon, use renew or purigen instead. Need to get a phosphate test kit, try online. I have heard that iron test kits are unreliable, do not know for sure, since I do not test for iron. Why do you need a light meter? Keep in mind the equipment difference between a 20 gallon and 125 gallon planted tank is huge. For example, yeast CO2 just will not get it. Plan on spending more on equipment than you did on tank/stand/canopy. For example, I spent $1200 for my 110 gallon tank/stand/canopy and over $1300 for the equipment. Here is a link to a decent site that has pics and plant info including light/temp/ph requirements:

http://www.azgardens.com/

[Wahter]

Tropica's got a good website for information on plants - I don't agree with all of the difficulties, but in general, it's a good reference:

http://www.tropica.com/