Planted Tank List

[hexed]

Hi,
I have a 90 gallon tank and want to try my hand at a planted tank. Can I get a list of what I would need to start this?
Thanks,
Frank

[wolfbane]

Will you have a high tech tank, or a low tech one? High tech would include substantial lighting and CO2 addition, a rich substrate too. Low tech would need less lighting, no CO2, more tolerant plants.

[hexed]

I didn't know there was two kinds LOL!

What would I need for either one? All I have is an empty 90 gallon tank, top, stand and canopy. I just want a list of everything I will need to setup a successful planted tank.

[Alight]

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/index.php

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/

http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/forumapc/index.php?

Frank, above are some links to some sites to get you started. There is actually much more to know about planted tanks than to know about Discus keeping.

Read a bunch, and ask questions. There are a bunch of ways to go, depending on the type of plants you want, and how you plan to keep your water.

If you are going to have Discus in the tank, I suggest you start with a low tech tank (no CO2 injection) and if you get that down, and want to do more, read up on the high tech tanks, DIY CO2, Milwaukee regulators, etc.

Check out Shalu's tank at http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=11359&pp=15

I'll have to get more pics up of my tank, now that I've gone semi high tech, too.

[hexed]

Alight,
Thank you so much for the response. I actually have a 90 gallon and a 150 gallon. One will be a salt water tank and the other will be a planted tank but unsure which will be what LOL! I bookmarked those pages you gave :)
Frank

[wolfbane]

Great list of resources! I have a 150 low tech tank, very low tech!! My tank has 120 watts of lighting, but is 5 feet from an East window, so more light there. I can grow anubias, crypticorn wendtii, swords, hygrophilia angustifolia, dwarf lilies and some vals. My Java fern didn't do well. You need 1 to 2 watts per gallon to do low light, low tech plants.

Read Read Read !!!

[tpl*co]

LOL, I have a low tech planted tank too. I'm trying other types of plants though. I have anubias, riccia, retrospiralis crypts (I have better luck with these than vals, and they look a lot alike. I'm trying ambulia and hygro too and they are doing fine. I have a power compact on that tank at about 2.5-3 watts per gallon.

[Vince+Carrie]

There are 3 main differences bewteen your typical tank and a planted tank:

Lighting

You'll need brighter lights. How much brighter depends on what you want to grow and how fast you want to grow it. We went with Compact Flourescents for our large tank with output in the range of 1.5 watts/gallon on our 135 gallon.

Substrate

Although most substrates are capable of growing plants some work better than others. We went with 100% SeaChem Flourite (just make sure you rinse it).

Ferts

You will probably have to supplement your tank with fertalizers. We use Iron, Phosphate, Potassium, and Nitrogen in ours. This is one of the more difficult areas planted aquaria because no one can tell you exactly what you need to do.

Other

We've also found it very handy to have a UV Steralizer in our setup. It will prevent green water and allow a bit more forgiveness while figuring out a fertalizer regiment.

Also a great resource for selecting plants is Tropicas Site (http://www.tropica.dk/plant_print.asp) since plants are like fish and require certain water parameters to be healthy.

[hexed]

Thank you everyone!
My 150 gallon is 48L X 31H X 24W it is not a long one but a high one :)
Would this change the light rule? In other words is the watts per gallon still the same to reach the bottom of the tank or would the watts need to be higher?
The 90 gallon is the normal size :)
I am not sure which tank to use ;)

Frank

[jeep8rus]

Honestly, from my experience I would strongly recommend a low light, low tech tank for now. The cost of all the high tech gear to grow algae really doesn't make my day.

I'd say get some valisnera and other low light plants. Valisnera will reproduce well and you can quickly cover the back wall of your aquarium. Get some rocks or driftwood, and gravel of some sort. To check if rocks are good, put a few drops of vinegar on them. If they fizz, don't use them. Gravel is gravel, a lot of people use enriched substrates, but if you add fertilizers to the water (best route) you don't have to. Besides, buying flourite (a substrate) to fill a 90 or 100 gallon would be expensive.

Go to www.theplantedtank.net . If you want a good deal on plants be patient and someone will put a bunch up for sale for a good price.

READ : This article by Tom Barr. http://www.sfbaaps.com/articles/barr_02.html

READ : This collaboration on fertilizers and where to get them cheaply! The first post is the most important.
http://www.aquariacentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12585

You can also order all the ferts you'll need from Greg Watson's site at http://www.gregwatson.com

For lighting you can use flourescent shop lights. Try and get the ones with an electronic ballast and (that use T8 bulbs!) in case you decide to overdrive the lights later. For deep tanks I recommend using a more blue light because blue light will go deeper in the water. 6500k full spectrum bulbs are good. I try to mix in a 5000k bulb to make the light "warmer". I get my phillips bulbs from home depot for a decent price.

HTH,
-Russ

[Vince+Carrie]

Would this change the light rule?

If you reserch this question I'm sure you'll get a lot of contradicting responses (I know I did). The majority of people will tell you that you'll need to compensate for having a deeper tank by adding more lighting. Other people will tell you that the tank itself acts as a large fiber-optic cable and won't require stronger lighting.

I don't know the answer for sure but I'd think that at 31" you'd start losing some of the intensity. It also depends on the amount of suspended particles and dissolved substances in the water itself.

[hexed]

I would like to use the 150 gallon for a planted tank instead of the 90 gallon for one reason. I cannot reach the bottom of the 150 unless I am hanging in the tank. If I use it for saltwater with a lionfish I don't think it would be a good idea to "hang" inside the tank with that in it LOL!

[Alight]

http://rexgrigg.com/

Another useful site is listed above. This is sort of the simple start to planted tanks. Start with the "Summary", and If you read the info on the various headings at the top, you'll know enough to get started. If you want info on where to buy various plants, let me know and I'll post some of those sites, too.

Just added the link below, too. It's a very short summary of the essential elements you'll need and need to know before you start.

http://www.plantedtank.net/basics.html

Overall, setting up and maintaining a planted tank has been an interesting intellectual exercise. You'll learn much more about the planet we live on if you decide to get into this.

[pcsb23]

Thank you everyone!
My 150 gallon is 48L X 31H X 24W it is not a long one but a high one :)
Would this change the light rule? In other words is the watts per gallon still the same to reach the bottom of the tank or would the watts need to be higher?
The 90 gallon is the normal size :)
I am not sure which tank to use ;)

Frank
Frank, the deeper the water the more the light in the shorter wavelengths are absorbed, ie the blue stuff. The effect it has on the plants is open to some debate by some people, but I believe that you generally need to compensate for it. This can be done by using more power, or different types/spectrum of lamps. You could even add an actinic tube, looks almost ultraviolet! Thats the beauty and joy of this hobby - there is more than one way of skinning a cat!!

You need not up the watts as such, its only a guide anyways, a 36W T8 florry tube gives less 'light' than a 36W T5. The message here is use T5s!. Compacts get good reviews too! On any light in a planted tank add reflectors!!

Personally I'd recommend going low tech too! Some of the anubias and sword and crypts are stunning in their own right. The danger for some with planted tanks is they become aquatic gardeners!! like ernest http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=44704 who has just sold his discus, as the lights were too bright. Don't get me wrong, thats his choice, I, and I think you, want discus in tanks, planted display tanks for me.

My opinion?? go for the 150!! (though it would make a good reef tank!) The 90 will make a nice reef tank too! fwiw I'm breaking my reef tank and going to convert it to a planted tank. Discus you know, they get in your blood!!

hth,
Paul

[chago09]

are swords low light plant?????

[pcsb23]

Swords generally tend to be undemanding, they will grow, but slowly in lower light levels.

[Vince+Carrie]

are swords low light plant?????

Yes, swords are usually considered low although a lot of them (Echinodorus 'Rosé', Echinodorus uruguayensis, Echinodorus tenellus, etc) require medium light.


Compacts get good reviews too!

Thats what we use and we're happy. The intensity is important... ie.

500 1Watt LEDs < 1 500Watt Metal Halide.

They also take up less space.

[chago09]

is it true you can buy light fixtures from like home depot for dirt cheap rather then buying the "fish tank lights" at pet stores

[senso]

HI all

This is my first post to the forum. Great site thanks to the people.

I am planning a 180g Wild Discus planted tank. The emphasis will be on the fish first and then the plants. I am opting for a 'low tech' alternative - less demanding on light, nutients and overall conditions. My philosophy is also 'everything in moderation, including moderation itself' and so bear this in mind when reading my own experiences. It may not work for you.

From having kept a 75G planted fairly successfully (you set your own standards and base), I have a few suggestions and points of reference for you. I am not an expert by any means but these are my own experiences.

Filtration is key - cannisters have worked well with me as they seem to minimize the loss of CO2.
Lighting - with a discus tank 2wpg may be sufficient especially if you keep low demanding plants. You need to find your right balance of intensity and duration- fish, CO2, cleaning, temp., ph and KH are all factors. There truly isn't a formula as each tank will have fairly unique parameters considering the variables let alone the inhabitants
Plants - low tech includes Crypts, Swords and Ferns (Bolbitis and Java). To help with cleaning of the tank attach as much of the plants to the driftwood and do not plant the entire tank but portions only. Plant high so waste accullates in the 'valleys'. This aids the cleaning regimen. Initially one may need to add bunch plants such as Ludwiga to minimize an algae bloom _ beard or green. You can remove them slowly over time and replace with the slower growing plants noted above. Glosso will require more light and is more demanding. Those same conditions help cultivate algae.
Maintenance - as with cleaning the tank ensure you prune on w weekly basis. It can get out of control.
CO2 - depends on plants, temps, ph, KH, and temp. If you want a jungle overnight, additional CO2 will get you there. I am saying witin a month, and you will be in the plant sales business. My recommendation would be to try it without initially, if a small tank possibly do the DIY methods, then if deemed essential try the Rolls Roce options. many sites, articles and forums will advise you to 'plants on steroids'. My view this is not a sprint but a amarathon and use months as your gauge for success in growth not days. With high lights 4 to 5 wpg, you will need to supplement CO2, supplement nutrients, etc. It is no different top the regimen you apply to raiding your Discus. If you want maximum growth in the shortest time, feed often (6 times a day) and clean 50% every day. However, this is one philosphy and others have been successful with a lower regime of feedings and water changes. This is based upon the great posts on this forum not personal experiences.
Clean up crew - SAE are great, until you add and feed the discus then they become pigs of the tank. Ottos (great with green alage and not at all intrusive), dwarf plecos and cardina japonica do a great job of clean up.

Plants add a different dimension to the tank's appearance (rather attractive) and its maintenace (some say you need to clean less), and I understand that most true Discus breeders will consider anything but BB an absolute no-no. But, if you've never eaten oysters how do you know you won't like them. ;)

These are other sights and articles I have found useful

http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/articles.htm

discus specific -http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/ah_main/sep1998.html

a pleasure to behold - http://www.adaeuro.com/

something to aspire to http://www.aquariumdesigngroup.com/index.php?option=com_frontpage&Itemid=1


On another note - while we are talking of changes to the site, AL once you plant your Altum tank (as promised) can we consider a forum section for planted discus tanks. LOL

Hope this helps

Rossano

[jeep8rus]

I forgot to put this link http://www.plantgeek.net/plantguide.php it's not all emcompasing, but it has a broad, searchable, database that you can look through by lighting requirements to get an idea of plants to use.

chago09, almost anything is cheaper outside the pet store if you know where to look. If there is a strip light that fits the dimensions of your tank it is definately cheaper there than at the LFS. My LFS wants $20 for a 10 gallon light hood...I can buy a 4 foot shop light for that price and use it all sorts of ways! The key is just shopping around.

-Russ

[wolfbane]

Frank, we must have the same tank!! My plantings are 4-7 months old now, doing fine. I used the light that came with the tank, a single 40 wt strip light, and added a double shop light (it sits on the glass top too).

Yes cleaning is a bear, so my "helpers", 9 bristlenose ancistrus, 3 robinae cory cats, are essential to the health of my tank. I do have little ramshorn snails too, came on some of the plants, but they do their part in balancing the tank too. The only algae problem I have is hair algae on the driftwood and some in the hygro. I just pull what I can out at cleaning time. Hope to try Amano shrimp soon.

I run 2 Aquaclear 110s, two 200wt heaters, and until the cat ate the airline, 2 airstones for bubbles. I have a large , branchy driftwood, and some nice rocks, on course sand. Its the sandblast media, like tiny gravel. Under the sand I have a thin layer of Laterite.

[wolfbane]

Early shot

[hexed]

I got the same but Petsmart gave me another light strip. I would not buy the tank unless it had two light strips. I told them a 75 gallon had two and this is twice the size so I got another one and that light strip holds two bulbs. So my tank will have 2 light strips with (3) 48 inch bulbs :)

I want a really nice looking planted tank for my discus to retire in. I thought a hang on filter was a no no with planted tanks?

I do have a couple questions though - I have read that people use that fertilizer substrate, can I mix it with sand? or just go with sand? and the other question is how deep does the substrate need to be in inches :)?

Thanks for all the info I do have a lot of reading to do and extra bracing in the basement ;)
Frank

[wolfbane]

Hanf-on-back filters may be a no no but I have them, I use a prefilter sponge on each, no plants get sucked into the tubes that way.

[jeep8rus]

HOBs are fine as long as it doesn't create a lot of surface turbulance. I keep my water level high though so I haven't had problems.

You can mix sand with the substrate, but you can't undo it. I find that having sand mixed in helps make it easier for me to plant. They say sand will compact over time, but if you gravel vac it won't be a problem. Sand helps with the cost too...

-Russ

[Dissident]

I got the same but Petsmart gave me another light strip. I would not buy the tank unless it had two light strips. I told them a 75 gallon had two and this is twice the size so I got another one and that light strip holds two bulbs. So my tank will have 2 light strips with (3) 48 inch bulbs :)

I want a really nice looking planted tank for my discus to retire in. I thought a hang on filter was a no no with planted tanks?

I do have a couple questions though - I have read that people use that fertilizer substrate, can I mix it with sand? or just go with sand? and the other question is how deep does the substrate need to be in inches :)?

Thanks for all the info I do have a lot of reading to do and extra bracing in the basement ;)
Frank

Q: 2 strips with 3 48" Bulbs? So 6x40W or 3X40W?
If it is 3x40W plants are going to live for a little while and die 1.3W/gallon is nothing you need it 2-2.5W/gallon even for low-light/low-tech. I would return them and get http://www.aquatraders.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=209 if you are serious about plants (you will have to replace the bulbs, get them on ebay for a few bucks).
If it is 6x40W you will be a lot better off and right at the point between low-light and med-light.
Some people will say depth doesnt make a difference, between ~30" to 18" its not like we are talking about a 5 ft deep tank here. Personally i like Metal Hallide/Power compacts in deep tanks, good reflectors will make a big difference too.

Stay with canisters but watch the fish to make sure there is enough O2 in there for them. A little surface aggitation is fine, if you are not adding CO2 you can have all the surface aggitation you want.

Pass on the sand IME it sinks to the bottom and becomes compacted, I just re-did my 65gal because of this. Ended up with 2" of compacted sand and mulum that was like concrete and plants suffered greatly, espically root-feeders.

Stay with fine gravel 1-2mm, use root tabs to minimize cost and headaches, and since it is your first planted tank. You can always go with something else 2yrs or more down the road once you finally have a grasp on the hobby. Or go with a 100% Flourite substrate but be ready to spend over $100 on gravel. Gravel is a lot easier to clean not having to worry about a fine layer of laterlite or some other substrate under the gravel.
Root tabs for ferts on your root feeders.

Anaubias, java ferns, bolbitis, and lace java ferns can be tied to wood and would look really nice.
The amazon swords will get huge, you can add some color with some red-ruben swords, or crypts, or tiger lotus. They will all do well in the 2.5W/gallon area.

[hexed]

Odyssea
48" 260W (65Wx4) Aquarium Power Compact Light
Dimension: 47 1/2" X 8" X 2 3/4"
Aquarium power compact fixture for fresh and saltwater aquarium use.
Sleek Aluminium Housing in black finish.
High quality light reflector.
2x Bulti-in fans
3x ON/OFF power switches.
Plus Free items as follow:
2x 65w Straight pins 12000K Daylight PC Bulb.
2x 65W Straight pins Actinic 03 PC Bulb.
1x Acrylic lens.
1pr Flip-able light Stands/legs.
4x Add on Blue Moon Lunar LED

Is this a good one? Exactly what is Actinic bulbs? Do I need tham? Also will this be enough light to reach the bottom of the 150 gallon tank, it is 31 inches deep? Sorry about all the questions but if I am going to buy a whole different lighting system I want to be sure I am getting the right one ;)

Frank

[wolfbane]

Boy, that sounds like a nice fixture, but I don't know if the actinics are good for freshwater and discus. Buy me one and I'll try it out for ya!!!{Big Grin}
where is this fixture at and how much?

[hexed]

I found it on ebay for 99.99 plus 19.95 to ship

[Dissident]

you dont want atinic bulbs that is for growing corals.
See if they will sub the bulbs for you, 6700K-10000K for plants.

PCs with good reflectors will be fine for your depth of a tank.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ODYSSEA-48-260W-Aquarium-Power-Compact-Light-Lunar_W0QQitemZ7738464806QQcategoryZ46314QQrdZ1QQc mdZViewItem
You will have to replace all 4 bulbs
They are streight pin (....) bulbs, they are easier to come by than the square pin bulbs (::), figure ~$50-80 in replacement bulbs. ~$30-50 if you go all 10,000K, 6700K are a little more rare and cost a bit more.

[hexed]

Diss-
This is the part the confuses me, the bulbs LOL! I can most likely get the planting part down to a tee because I have a green thumb but the lighting is what always confused me.
Why would I have to replace the bulbs? I do not understand 10000 and 6700 thing? This is where you need to explain it as easy as you can. The lighting again I just can not understand even with my tanks I have right now, I couldn't tell you anything about the lighting LOL! And yes I am blonde so it makes it even worse when trying to understand LOL! ;)
Frank

[hexed]

One more question. I am planning on what I want the tank to look like and drawing different pictures, which I think is the right way to go. I need to know how deep is the substrate suppose to be?

[jeep8rus]

have a subtrate of 2-3 inches deep or more.

I wouldn't worry to much about your aquascaping abilities at this point. What I have been doing (idea was shalu's) is using plant weights so it's easier to move everything around at first.

Bulb colors don't matter that much as long as you have the sufficient lighting, but most people stick to somewhere in the 5000-6500 range because of how it renders the colors of the fish (more natural lighting). These lights have a high CRI (color rendering index), the lower the rating the less optimum they represent true object colors. I also agree that, if possible, you should be at 2wpg for decent growth, but it doesn't require CO2.

Have you checked AHSupply for lighting options?

The biggest thing I'm still learning more and more about is how to fertilize correctly. This will be what really drives how well everything does. Make sure to download the freeware calculator from Chuck's site: http://www.csd.net/~cgadd/aqua/art_plant_aquacalc.htm

It will let you calculate how to set up your own fertilizer mixes. I'd recommend starting on the low scale of the fertilizer range until you know how your tank reacts.

Oh, I'm blonde also and try to minimize my handicap whenever possible...
-Russ

[hexed]

Ok so then what I want to do will work :)
I want the landscaping layered 3 tiers high but I have to really wait til the driftwood comes so I can take all my drawings and combine them into one. I'm not going to rush into a planted tank. I want to take my time because I have to set it up landscaping wise the way I picture the tank. I just cannot put it together in one day and say ok I will switch it around another day. I need to take my time putting it all together. It's basically the lights that I do not understand and need to learn more about. I am not going to put my discus in until the tank is completely ready and I mean the plant part is where it should be. The hardest part I am thinking will be the walls LOL!
Frank

[Dissident]

5000K yellow
(gets whiter as the K goes up)
10000K white
12000K+Blue (do not use)

if you are using 55W bulbs GE makes a great inexpensive bulb that a lot of hobbiests like. I have never used it since all my fixtures are 96W.

2" is not deep enough for planted tanks you want 3" min, 4"-5" will give roots a lot more room to grow and your plants will thank you for it.

Don't worry about ferts unless you have CO2, (no CO2)+ferts+(high light)=algae

When you first set up the tank do not worry about an aquascape, fill it with a lot of fast growing stem plants first. Once they start growing well you can replace them with other plants, the will keep algae problems down durring the cycle of the tank. Throw a couple of hardy inexpensive fish in there, the plants will keep ammonia and nitrite levels down to almost 0 if you plant dense enough.

[scans]

Here is some good lighting info:

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/People/Darn/darn3.html

[wolfbane]

I like this one better, they will trade out the bulbs for a $30 fee, to what ever you want. Plus they guarrantee the bulbs will work, the other one doesn't. http://cgi.ebay.com/AQUARIUM-LIGHT-48-ODYSSEA-JEBO-260-WATT-POWER-COMPACT_W0QQitemZ7739113566QQcategoryZ46314QQrdZ1Q QcmdZViewItem

[pcsb23]

Ok so then what I want to do will work :)
I want the landscaping layered 3 tiers high but I have to really wait til the driftwood comes so I can take all my drawings and combine them into one. I'm not going to rush into a planted tank. I want to take my time because I have to set it up landscaping wise the way I picture the tank. I just cannot put it together in one day and say ok I will switch it around another day. I need to take my time putting it all together. It's basically the lights that I do not understand and need to learn more about. I am not going to put my discus in until the tank is completely ready and I mean the plant part is where it should be. The hardest part I am thinking will be the walls LOL!
Frank
Frank, when you say the walls, do you mean the aquarium walls, or the walls for your tiers??

Moons ago when I had a tiered tank (and its something I might be doing again!) I got some L shaped bits of terracotta and placed them where I wanted the tier to be, put the substarte in and it held it all in place. Now it needn't be terracotta, anything that is tank safe and takes your fancy will do it, you can use driftwood, again if you need to secure the driftwood, then eggcrate that fits the width of the tank, secure the wood to the egg crate, I used fishing line, then cover with substrate. Hope that makes sense, its a while since I did this but it looked pretty good.

hth,
paul.

[hexed]

First I want to say a big
THANK YOU! to all of you for taking the time and answering my questions. I really appriciate each and every response!

Wolf - that does seem like a better deal, I will ask the other seller if he will do the same ;)

Jeep - It's great being blonde :)

Scan - Thanks, I'm reading that.

Diss - You are such a big source of info, maybe I will have you come over and set it up for me :) You have the patience of a saint! Thank you again! I will do 3 inches to start. Now I am leaving the front open to feed the discus can I just use some white sand about 1/4 inch deep for that, there will be no plants in the front?

Paul - Yes walls for my tiers ;) I want to look at the tank so it looks 3 demitional if you understand what I mean. I have the stuff to make my walls but again I have to wait til the driftwood comes. I need to know how I want the driftwood in the tank and then redo my drawing for the walls ;)

Frank

[scans]

The fixture listed above on ebay comes from aquatraders. I have their 72" model and I like it. You can order from them direct:

http://www.aquatraders.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWCATS&Category=25

[hexed]

Thanks Scans!

[scans]

No problem...

[Dissident]

What you could do in the foreground is use (flat) rocks with moss/anaubias/java ferns on them. The you could remove them when you want to clean the tank and just put them back when you are done.

Do not use slate however, the plants will not root to it. The rocks need to be somewhat porus.

You the decision of foreground plants is upto you. I would not go with: Riccia/Glosso. I have found hairgrass to work well it roots well into the substrate and you wont vaccum it all up when you clean.

There are all kinds of aquscapes, to have a nice planted tank does not require a fore-ground to be planted.

Here is one of the best aquascapeing articles out there if you haven't already read it:
http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/5196060812/m/3876034022

[Alight]

Another aquascaping note that I found to be very accurate and informative.

http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/showthread.php?t=17162

I have tiered my tank into two levels. I used flat granite slabs to create a rock wall to hold back deep substrate at the back and sides. These are placed so that there are no pockets for mulm to rot in. I also put a bubble wand deep in the gravel near the rock wall to keep water circulating through the deep substrate to prevent anerobic pockets. A bubble wand is not recommended for planted tanks with CO2, however.

As to lights, I find that 5,000 - 5,200 K is a good range for my red Discus. The blues look nice at this range, too. I found 6,500 too blue for my tastes. This is all individual however, and depends on the colors of fish you have and what you prefer.



As to a feeding arrangement, I like Dissendent's reply. I may go to that in the future, once I figure out how to get moss to grow nicely (what kind of moss do you find does well, sticks down tight soon after it's planted so it can be vacuumed, and doesn't serve as a place to grow algae?

I'm currently using a very thin layer of gravel (you can see the glass through it) at the very front of my tank as a feeding location. I recently allowed about half of this area to become carpeted with water wisteria (hygrophylla difformis) which grows horizontally in a high light tank. Takes lots of trimming is the only problem with it. If kept trimmed, Discus can still graze food in this stuff.

I have 4 inches of substrate in the back of my tank. This is sort of minimum for large swords, crypts and even anubias.

Yes, the fast growing stem plant idea is the way to go at first. I really have to take out some of the cabomba, hygro polysperma, and difformis that I used to get the tank going. It's getting harder and harder to stay on top of the trimming, even though I've pulled out tons of the stuff.

[hexed]

Do you have a picture of your tanks anyone?

[pcsb23]

Frank, I bet the wait will be worth it! Post some pics as you go through doing it. I am about to redo a tank myself. A 100g (US) tank! I'm 'converting' it from a marine reef tank to a discus tank, possibly planted, definitely a display tank though, decisions, decisions!

Hopefully there is a photo of my current display tank in my study below, it was taken a couple of weeks ago!

Paul.

[hexed]

Paul,
The tank looks really nice, I like it :)
I want to create a portfolio with lots of pictures from start to finish like the one I saw yesterday on another forum. Will this be ok to do on Simply? I want to ask because I have not seen one at all. Also is this a good canister filter for my tank?

JEBO ODYSSEA CANISTER FILTER Odessa CSF4.

• LOCKING SIDE CLAMPS FOR EASE OF USE
• HIGH-POWERED @ 350G.P.H! MORE POWER IN 2005!
• COMES WITH BIOLOGICAL AND MECHANICAL MEDIA - SAME AS EHEIM
• EASY PULL OUT PLASTIC BASKETS
• QUIET, QUALITY, FILTRATION
• INCLUDES ALL HOSES AND ATTATCHMENTS
• BUILT-IN WATER SHUTOFFS IN HEAD
• PUSH AND PRIME FEATURE. NICER, EASY PRIMER IN 2005!
• SETS UP IN SECONDS
Seller is fishman911, you can view it by clicking on the link wolfbane posted above. he's the same seller :)

Frank

[pcsb23]

Frank, its coming on, the plants are filling in a bit better, I'm trying what I can best describe as a hybrid approach (neither high nor low tech, I know, why?? well some ones got to!!) Basically using undergravel heater, mix of sterilised soil and plant substrate, topped with gravel, regular small fert doses, medium/medium low light and no CO2. So far its ok, growth rate is stunning on some, slow on others, about what I expected I guess!! Good news though no major algae probs so far!!!

I've not used the Jebo filters but I am hearing good things about them! Its got all the right ease of use facilities. I've seen them in my lfs and they look ok too! I get a bit stuck in my ways with equipment though (wife would say stubborn - who am I to argue!) my personal choice is eheim.

As for posting your portfolio on your planted tank project, I sure hope so as I intend to do the same!! Really though it's what forums like this are about, informative, educational and fun. Also to share in each others successes and failures.

Personally I'd like to see what you end up doing, maybe even crib some ideas! Look forward to it!

Mind if we fill up Al's servers with pics......

Paul.

[hexed]

Never heard of an undergravel heater, do I need one?

[Dissident]

Never heard of an undergravel heater, do I need one?
Simple answer - No (if you really want to know why PM me don't feel like writing 1/2 a page about them)

The jebo filter is OK at best I have last year's model on my 65gal and my Rena XP3 is Worlds better. They may have improved on the 828 model some but I have not seen it in action.

I would get at least 2 of them (at least). Even on my 55gal 1 Jebo828 does not cut it at all. There is a lot of media bypass on those Jebo's

A Rena XP3 would be a good option ~US$100 shipped. They have no media bypass so 100% of the water is pushed/pulled through the media.

On my 65gal I use 1 XP3, and have the Jebo packed with filter-floss for polishing the water. Even on my 65gal 2 of the Jebo's wouldn't cut it.

But as I said I have not seen the new model in action... It could be a lot better, you could always get one, and see. But i'll bet you get a second filter soon after. Or start with a Rena/Eihem and be in the clear.

[hexed]

Ok, if I get the Jebo get 2 and if I get the XP3 do I need 2 of them or one?
Frank

[pcsb23]

Never heard of an undergravel heater, do I need one?

Sorry Frank, didn't mean to confuse things. The short answer is No. The theory behind them is they keep the roots slightly warmer than the water, causing currents (convection I think), they are supposed to stop any 'black' spots in your substrate (anaerobic patches). At the moment I'm not convinced but until I've given it a full and fair trial I'm not going to rule it out just yet. Lots of guys over here use them an absolutely swear by them (or should that be at them??) and they get good results but not sure how much is down to the heater. btw its a low volt cable!

Dissident I'm interested on your thoughts as to why too! sorry if its a half page answer!

Paul.

[Dissident]

One XP3 should be fine. I like the additional Jebo as a water polisher but thats just me. The XP3 has 2x the output as the 1 Jebo828 I have in the same tank, and it has better water contact with the filter media. But like I said the new Jebo model may be better than the last year's 828 model.

As far as the UG heater goes. It is supposed to create convection current that moves neutriants past the roots (carried by the warmer water). I have not heard of it preventing a substrate becoming anerobic but can see how it would. The biggest problem with them is that as root-feeding plants grow the roots get tangled with the cable and if you pull up the plants to move them you can bring the UG heater with it.
Some people swear by it but the majority of people in the hobby will pass on that piece of equipment. The benifit does not seem to out-weigh the cost. Keep root-feeding plants well fed with root tabs instead. Thats just my opinion.

Don't worry not quite 1/2 a page ;)

[hexed]

Ok,
I know I will never have an underground heater because I would not know the first thing about running a cable LOL!
I will pick up the rena xp3 and maybe also get the Jebo to "polish" like you said ;)
I like the idea of using a bubble type wand in the deeper substrate to create a current in the deep substrate.
I also have a bubble disk, never used it and I got it free when I ordered supplies off ebay, the seller "threw" it in for free :)
Frank

[Dissident]

If you get that jebo please let me know how it works compared to the XP3, I am intersted in to see how the new jebo compares. Do the 1gallon milk-jug test (see how long it takes to fill the 1gallon, test both and do the math to see what the real flow rate is with media in the filters).

The extra water flow from 2 filters is nice to prevent those 'dead' spots that algae likes, and to pick up some of that extra organic material floating around in the water when it comes to planted tanks.

Again I would be really intersted to see how the 2 compare.

[hexed]

Ok,
Now I know what light I'm getting and what filters as well. Is there anything else I need to get? I will be using (2) 300 watts heaters or do I need stronger ones?

Diss - I will do that and let you know how long and then you can tell me LOL!

Frank

[hexed]

Ok, back to lighting LOL.
The seller has emailed me and said he only has the following bulbs for that unit: 12000k, actinic blue or 50/50. I have no clue what a 50/50 is? He said the $30 fee is to open the box and swap out the bulbs and reseal, I will not get the original bulbs that would come with the unit. So Wolfbane, is thsi still the better deal? seems like I have to buy the bulbs anyways right?
Frank

[pcsb23]

Frank, I'd email him right back and ask him. There are some new bulbs coming out that 'spread' the colour spectrum in the one bulb, I've seen one by Arcadia that is 60/40. Or it could just ne that 2 of them are 12000K and 2 are actinics! Personally I wouldn't recommend actinics on a freshwater planted tank, they are mainly for corals.
Paul.

[hexed]

Can you explain to me how you figure the watts? If I have 4 65w bulbs how many watts is this per gallon for the 150g?

[pcsb23]

4 x 65 = 260W total watts

260w / 150g = 1.73 w/gal

Paul.

[hexed]

Is that enough light? I still have the other two 40 watt strips one holds (2) 40 w bulbs and the other holds one. If I use the strip that holds the two 40 watt bulbs what would the total be then?

[pcsb23]

Yes I think its fine, they are compacts right?? so they 'output' more than standard florries do, not quite as much as T5's. It puts yopu on the lower side but all that means is the plants grow a little slower and some of the high light plants may suffer. The good news is it looks as though the fitting has reflectors so that will make the most of the light. Once you start going much above 2 wpg then you get into CO2 dosing etc. My tank is running on 1.25 wpg at the moment.
Paul.

[hexed]

OK, I understand now. As long as I stay under 2 watts per gallon I do not need CO2.
What are high light plants? Right now I am trying to find some different types of mosses, water sprite, swords, Java ferns and something other then green LOL!
Frank

[pcsb23]

Plants like Alternanthera reineckii often red in colour that need very high light requirements, ideally you would need metal halides for this type of plant. Most swords, annubias, ferns and mosses will do fine at your light levels, in fact they will prosper. Once your tank is going you could try Alternanthera reineckii ''roseafolia'' its a variety of the above but require smedium light levels which you should be ok with and it has pinkish leaves. Its a lot like keeping fish, sometimes some work better than others!

This site has a good guide on plant requirements with some decent pictures, but don't be put off trying a plant if it falls outside of their recommendations. Some plants will grow fine, slowly but fine, if the light levels are lower than their ideal. If the levels of nutrients and co2 are in balance with the light levels and the temps are not too far out of range then they will grow.

http://www.tropica.com/default.asp

hth,
Paul.

[Dissident]

50/50 is 10,000K/atinic.
PC bulbs have 2 tubes each one is atinic and the other is 10000K.
Do not get and XX/XX combo bulbs. 40/60 is I believe 12000K/Atinic, great for coral tanks, bad for plants.

Do you have a conopy over the tank? or are you looking for a lighting solution that will be exposed above the tank for everyone to see?

[Dissident]

OK, I understand now. As long as I stay under 2 watts per gallon I do not need CO2.
What are high light plants? Right now I am trying to find some different types of mosses, water sprite, swords, Java ferns and something other then green LOL!
Frank

Red plants for low light:
Red tiger lotus, red-ruben sword, Various crypts, probably a few more.

if you want more lighting
http://stores.ebay.com/Aquarium-Lights_Power-Compact-Retro_W0QQcolZ2QQdirZQ2d1QQftidZ2QQtZkm
Good retro kits, and you can pick bulbs you want, 6700K-10,000K/Atinic/(50/50)
May not be in the price range you want to stay in.
But 2x96W with the correct bulbs for ~$100
I would look more at the 4x96W or 8X55W, if you want a DIY hood-building project ;)

[hexed]

I do not have a canopy for the tank. I am going to have tiers a total of 3 high and I figured I wanted to try and get red plants for the 3rd tiers seeing they would be closer to the light. Don't know if it would work so I was asking :) The tiers will be as follows: 1st tier will be 3 inches from bottom, 2nd would be 6 inches from bottom and 3rd 9 inches from bottom. So if you are looking at the tank you will see the foreground, then tier 1, then tier 2 and then tier3. Tier 3 will be in the back of the tank. What do you think?
Frank

[Dissident]

Worth a try! Alternanthera reineckii (red temple) would be my stem plant of choice if you want some reds, they take a while to get growing well but should add some nice color.

[hexed]

Is two 300w heaters enough or do I need to get higher ones?

[Dissident]

600W total is fine. I have 2x300W on my 110gal and can crank it over 90F if i need to (Jebo heaters).

[wolfbane]

I recommend the red lotus, but it goes dormant occasionally, it comes back. I would love to try some red temple, have to find some. Crypts give a surprising amount of color.

[hexed]

Thanks, I have 3 red lotus growing in my BB tanks now. There is a seller on Aquabid putting me together a package. I ended up getting two Jebo canister filters. I figure for the price I will try them and if I do not like it I will order XP3. Next week I will order the lights. I have my driftwood (3pieces) still in transit. I will be making my portfolio but I am also the newsletter Editor for North American Discus Association - NADA and will be posting my planted tank story in the newsletter first before posting it here. Once the newsletter is online then I will be posting it on Simply. Can put already posted material in the newsletter ;) If I knew your names I would like to include them in the write up?
Frank

[Alight]

Alternanthera reineckii (red temple) is really great! I love it in my tank. I tried to put up some photos of the tank, but my internet at home is down. Maybe tonight. It grows quite tall, very quickly and makes a nice background plant. It's very different than the red lotus that way.

Like most red plants, it needs fairly high light and iron. With light levels this high, you will need either Fluorish Excel dosing (expensive for an aquarium your size) or Co2 injection (cheaper in the long run).

It grow quite tall, and might respond OK at more moderate light levels at the top tier of your tank.

[hexed]

What kinds of fish do I need for the tank?

[Alight]

You should plan on the "clean up crew". I've found the best one is bristle nose catfish. You'll probably want at least two, but apparently there can be conflicts with 2. You might want to do some research on that topic.

A bunch of otos (probably 8 or so). These are really great and seem to eat different stuff in different places than the bristle nose.

I haven't tried them, but nerite snails are supposed to be very useful..

One of the dirty problems of planted tanks, is that it is really common to get snails with your plants when you buy them. Generally, these are not actual snails, but snail eggs, and it only takes a very few to get an amazing number in your tank. Nerite snails are not a problem, as they only breed in brackish to salt water. Apparently they help keep the pond snail problem down.

If you do get snails, (hopefully you won't) you'll want some small loaches, like yo-yos, or angelicus loaches to keep them in check.

I have SAE's (siamese algae eaters) but I really don't recommend them. They do a good job at first, but eventually don't eat enough algae to be worth the bioload they add. They never even put a dent in the black beard algae in my tank. I never saw them eat any of it. Only Fluorish Excel, and CO2 put an end to that problem.

I tried amano shrimp, but they quickly became snacks, even for my Juvi discus.

Of course, the main show is the Discus!! Put as many in as you are comfortable doing the water changes for (the more you put in, the more often you'll have to change water).

I'd stay away from any other fish, unless you are really thrilled by some of the other varieties that people on this site have mixed with their Discus.

[Dissident]

Loaches for sure, snalis can dammage plants. Yo-yo as mentioned or my favorite Botia Striata (Zebra loaches) a little more rare and IMO look a lot nicer than yo-yo. Either way you will want ~6 of either they don't get very big and won't bother discus.

Siamese algae eaters or flying fox to keep BBA in check they wont bother discus either. (2-3) But they will develop a taste for fish food as they get older. SAE is better than the FF

I would stay away from ottos they have been known to snack on a discus's slime coat here and there.

Bristle-knose plecos only. 2-3 young ones

Schooling fish: (~20) I would do one type.
My fav Rummynose tetras. Low-mid water and adds great contrast to plants, best schooling fish IMO.
Harliquins are good for top water schooling. Pencil-fish are a nice touch don't really school.
Congo tetras (male) look stunning when adults, but can get large and can be too active for some sensitive discus. I have had no problem with 3 of them in my 110x (there is a pic of them in my 110x journal in my sig).

Even though you passed on the XP3 I would still like to know the performance of the Jebo;)

[hexed]

Thanks again!
I will let you know how they work when they arrive.
What about the knife fish with the white on it, can one of those go in the tank?

[Dissident]

I recommend the red lotus, but it goes dormant occasionally, it comes back. I would love to try some red temple, have to find some. Crypts give a surprising amount of color.

Robert over at aquabotanic usually always has some. I've never been dissipointed in his quality of plants. Not the same selection as some other places.

[Alight]

Finally got some new pics up of my tank. There are more in the photo gallery, in case you are interested. Notice the Red Temple plants. Really nice!http://forum.simplydiscus.com//attachment.php?attachmentid=11396&stc=1&d=1138242394

I think Frank had a problem with otos already. I've had no problem with the ones I have had. I've heard from others that there are actually several varieties of otos, and that only some of them suck on to Discus.

[Dissident]

I think Frank had a problem with otos already. I've had no problem with the ones I have had. I've heard from others that there are actually several varieties of otos, and that only some of them suck on to Discus.

Honestly i have otos in my discus tank and never had a problem. I know shalu here and at PT.net has had issues with it, he even has a pic of an oto sucking on one of his discus. It could be that it is a different varity.

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/1784/ottosuck4ie.th.jpg

[hexed]

I love the planted tank and discus too!

I never had an otto, don't even know what they look like :(
I had problems with my white and orange algea eaters (CAE?) attacking my discus.
What about those black knife fish with the white ring around the tail? I hope I am describing it correctly LOL! Someone told me that they live very well with discus.
Do I need a uv sterilizer?

[pcsb23]

Frank, not overly familiar with the knife fish, I think Cage has one though. To add to your options for fish, my fav is Cardinals, nice school of 20 or so, stunning, also they don't get big, don't bother the discus and once settled can stand the high temps very well.

You don't need a UV sterilizer, imo they are nice to have, whether or not planted, but they are definitely not needed.

Paul.

[hexed]

Ok,
Here is the plant list I got from the seller, please tell me what you think? The amount is above each package:

$20.00
2 Amazon wide leaf
1 Amazon narrow leaf
1 Ozelot Sword
4 Lg Crypt red wendtii
4 Crypt Lucens
1 Bunch Hygro tropic sun

$30.00
Same as above with

2 Bunches Didilips Diandra
4 Dwarf Chain Swords
2 Dwarf Sagitarius

$40.00
Same as above with

1 Lg Red Rubin Sword (nice)
1 Bunch Rotala Wallichii

And I always throw in some extras.

Whatcha think?
Frank

[pcsb23]

Ok,
Here is the plant list I got from the seller, please tell me what you think? The amount is above each package:

$20.00
2 Amazon wide leaf
1 Amazon narrow leaf
1 Ozelot Sword
4 Lg Crypt red wendtii
4 Crypt Lucens
1 Bunch Hygro tropic sun

All of the above are good, the hygo has higher light requirements than the others, but you've got that covered.




$30.00
Same as above with

2 Bunches Didilips Diandra
4 Dwarf Chain Swords
2 Dwarf Sagitarius

Didilips can be difficult and struggle at the higher end of temps, the others should do fine.



$40.00
Same as above with

1 Lg Red Rubin Sword (nice)
1 Bunch Rotala Wallichii

Rubin is VERY NICE!!!
rotala should do well with your light levels.



And I always throw in some extras.

Whatcha think?
Frank

more rubins?? for the etras - that'd be nice!

Looks good to me Frank,
Paul.

[scans]

Hexed,
Who are you getting this from?
I got a discus package from aquabotanic.com and loved it.


$88.00
1 large red Rubin Sword
4 pots Dwarf Hairgrass
20 Corkscrew vals
2 bunches Micro tenellus
20 Dwarf Sag
20 contortion vals
3 bunches red Foxtail
3 bunches Wisteria
3 bunches Rotala indica
3 Tropica swords

[Dissident]

Robert over at AB does put together some nice packages.
I would look at some Amazon Sword (compacta) they stay samll can make a really nice addition as a for-ground plant in larger tanks.

I didn't see and anaubias on the list, they are a really nice plant to fill in dark areas of the tank, or compliment wood/rocks. Bolbitis would be nice too, and java ferns... where are the java ferns?
So far you have a nice list of high-moderate light plants but you will need some low-light plants in there too.

aquariumplants.com has a huge selection of plants and I have ordered from them several times with no problems.

[jeep8rus]

I'd stay away from the Didilips Diandra and Chain sword if you don't have high lighting.

I really, really recommend trying to get a deal from someone on one of the plant forums or a local plant club. You'll feel like crap buying $80 worth of plants and having them die if you mess up.

Dwarf sag, crypts, vals, and swords can reproduce quick enough that you don't need 10 of each initially.

-Russ

[hexed]

The list was compiled by the AquaBid seller: Dflorio61, his website is: RainbowTropicalFish.com I was looking around on the auction site for packages and he was the only one who responded LOL!
Can you make me a list and I will see what he has from the list?
Frank

[Alight]

Diss, what do you think about this:

There is a "breaking in" time for new planted tanks. During this time, you may experience more algae problems than after the tank is established. For this reason, many find that planting a bunch of inexpensive, fast growing stem plants helps to reduce the algae growth and "prepares" the tank for the addition of more slowly growing plants.

What this means is that the hygro Tropical Sunset (it really doesn't need high light, just high light if you want it to have red tips) might be a good plant, but most of the rest are moderate to slow growing, and might best be added at a later time. Other fast growing stem plants that have done very well in my discus tank include hygro difformis, Red Temple, and Green temple (hygro corombosa).

The only hard part would be ripping out all of the stem plants to make way for the other plants later on ( it's hard once you spent all that time growing them).

I stuck a list of links to places to buy plants on the sticky at the top of this topic page on references. There are a bunch of other sites listed there, too by others.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=30631

The Aquabid price is not bad, but you can do almost as well at AZ gardens and aquariumplants.com, and your selection is larger.

[Dissident]

The fast growers are improtant for the cycle.
IME I just like stuffing the tank full of wysteria, inexpensive and looks nice for about a month. Come to think of it I have never added swords in that first stage (see one of the pics in my 65gal journal, I think i have a pic there with hygro and wysteria and that was it), I have done anaubias because I have so many of them laying around in tanks. Hygro is good too (not sunset, that has always grown slower for me).

[hexed]

Can you give me a good starter list for my 150 gallon? The plant name and how many?
I was thinking of using a mix of eco complete and Estes black sand for substrate or should I cut out the eco complete all together. I know some said not to use flourite I think cause it's clay?
Friday I order the light strip and extra 6700 bulbs or was it 6400? LOL!

[Alight]

http://aquatic-store.com/

Click on Aquarium and pond plants, then click on plant assortments, then on aquarium plant habitat packages, then on Discus planted tank packages.

Almost all of these plants are good.

I would probably buy the stem plants first, and get them going well
Heteranthera
Didiplis Diandra
Hygrophila
Rotala Indica
Dwarf & Tall Subulata Sag
Vals

Then get the rest

As to where to get them, this site is not bad, and neither is Aquariumplants.com and azgardens.com and several other sites (I'm sure others will chime in), including aquabid and the trading section on the planted tank forum.

Actually, this part is the fun. Spend some time looking up these plants, what they look like, and how much you will have to spend. Remember that these plants grow fast, and that you can buy less than half of what you will eventually want and still fill your tank in a couple of months. \

As to how many to buy, this will depend on your landscaping plants. With these plants, figure on a bunch for every 4-6 square inches.

Then look at the other suggested plants, and figure out where you might want to put them. Look at others planted tanks, a see where they have put similar types of plants.

This really is the fun part.

You can always change your mind later, and scrap some plants and buy some others, too.

[hexed]

Ok,
Here's what I have on my lists so far:
Clean up crew:
6 Zebra Loaches
2-3 SAEs
2-3 Bristle nose Placos
Do I need an Cory cats?

Plants That I liked:
Tiger Lotus
Didiplis Diandra
Hygrophila
Vals
Anubias
Red Temple
Ozelot Swords
Dwarf & tall Sag
Red Ruben Sword
Bolbitus (sp)
Water Sprite
Wisteria
Hydro Sunset
Java Fern
Veriety of Mosses
I do know some require more light, but figure I will give it a try because I will just place those with higher light needs on the 3rd tiers. I just do not know how many of each plant I would need?

I learned from another thread that the timing is: plants first - month later add cleaning crew - 2-4 months adsd discus and other fish.

Tankmates I was liking are:
(4) Congo Tetras
(1) Black Ghost Knifefish
Rummynose and Cardinal Tetras, can I do 10 of each?
Blue (German) Rams

Ordering the compact light strip on Friday (2/3/06) plus extra bulbs. Need to get the substrate, was thinking of mixing Etses black sand and eco complete - would this be ok or just not get the eco complete?

Already have: driftwood and 2 Jebo canister filters.

Please let me know if I will need anything else? ;)

Frank

[pcsb23]

Frank,

Think your clean up crew is fine as is, the SAE will be ok but once they get the taste for discus food they tend to go off algae, but they are good in a start up tank. Your tankmates, I've no personal experience with rams but they seem to be the hot topic here at the mo... I wouldn't put the congo's in they will most probably struggle witht the higher temps, as for the knifefish, again not much personal experience. As for the rummynose and cardinals, they will be fine in 10's (cardinals are my fav tetra!!)

The list of plants looks fine, the didilips can be a real pain ime but give it a go, I'd add that once the other quicker growing plants are rocking and you've got the maintenance off. The red ruben sword makes a spectacular feature imo.Tiger Lotus and me don't get on for some reason but its a nice plant.

The mix of substrate should be fine, I wouldn't be put off adding some laterite or flourite either. You could go all eco complete but its costly.

Its getting exciting, looking forward to the finished project!!

All the best,
Paul.

[Alight]

Hey Frank, try out the link below. It has most of the plants you want, and suggestions for placement in aquascaping. Notice the tank with bunches of plants noted. It may give you and idea of how many of each variety you want to put in each location in your tank. Also has nice pictures of many of the plants, so you can get an idea what things might look like. Click on the name or picture of each and you'll see the tank placement suggestions. These tanks are about 55 gallon, for a reference for the size of the area they are taking up.

http://www.plantgeek.net/plantguide_cat.php?category=5

Al Light

[hexed]

Ok,
I ordered my Jebo 260 watt compact light today. I also picked up 50.5 pounds of river rock but do not know if I am going to use it all. LOL Still waiting for my driftwood to arrive so I can plan (draw) my tank.
Frank

[wolfbane]

What fun! Be sure and take lots of pictures and post 'em for us!

[hexed]

I got the two canister filters today. Do I need to hook them up to my 55 gallon tanks to cycle them or just put them on the 150 gallon when it is ready?

Wolfbane (Debbie) do you have any pics of your tank?
Frank

[pcsb23]

Frank, I'd hook them up to your existing tank now.

Paul.

[wolfbane]

Hey Frank! I don't have a digital camera, and the last photos I took were too dark, sorry. Hope to buy a digital soon, I may borrow one from a friend this weekend. Money is an issue right now, only have enough for a point and shoot type camera now. I'll post pictures as soon as I can.

[hexed]

Ok,
The seller I am dealing with put together this small package for me, What do you think? Everyone is saying to go to different websites and buy packages there, but I really like helping the smaller sellers ;)
This is what he put together for a total of $50 plus some extras and he is also giving me a free plant book and shipping is $6.99.

2 didiplis
1 giant hygro
2 types Val 6ea
2 anuibias
1 ozolot sword
2 types sag 6ea
1 red Rubin
2 wisteria
2 tropic sunset
1 java fern
crypt assortment

I received my driftwood in the mail yesterday and am trying to place them in the tank so I can start my final drawings.
Frank

[hexed]

I wanted to add that all stem plants are bunches of 6 stems each. So 2 didiplis is actually 12 stems.
Frank

[Alight]

Looks like a good start to me. If the quality is good, it's a good deal. You should be able to figure out what types of plants do well, and still have some room to add more later, if you want to (although these should spread to fill the tank in a couple of months).

[pcsb23]

Sounds pretty good Frank, hopefully they'll be of decent quality too.

Paul.

[hexed]

There is one thing I am confused on. If plants need CO2 to live, how can they live in a low tech tank? I read somewhere on the forum that someone said to plant the plants first and a month later add the clean up crew. How does the plants live and grow without anything giving them the CO2 for a month? Then that person said to add the discus 2-4 months after the clean up crew. How does CO2 work? Will it cause the pH to become unstable?
See, I wanted to get some mosses other then java moss. I read on some of the auctions that the seller stated no CO2 was required and it will grow in low light but when I emailed him he said that I need CO2, which brings me to my confusion LOL!
Frank

[pcsb23]

Frank, forgiv me if this is already known but... during the day lants take in CO2 and give off O2, during the night they take in O2 and give off CO2. Some pants, if not all, will use elemental carbon if they cannot get it in the easier to use form of CO2, by that I mean they take it from carbonates in the water.

Some people describe ricia as a moss and when submerssed (normally a floating plant) it benefits from CO2. To the best of my knowledge the Vesicularia mosses don't need CO2.

CO2 works by adding gaseous CO2 into the aquarium at a measured dosage trough what is called a reactor. Basically this can be anything that increases the contact time the CO2 has with the water. The CO2 disolves into the water and gets used by the plants. There are three types of CO2 ssytems I'm aware of, low tech or DIY, high tech and elctro carbon systems (technically not CO2 as such but does the same job). The elctro one works by a curent passed across 2 carbon plates, thats the limit of my knowledge on this system. The DIY/low tech systems are basically a yeast based systems fermenting, generally cheap but uncontrollable and only suitable for samll systems. high tech systems use CO2 cannisters and control valves, suitable for large systems and offer greate control. There is a direct relationship between hardness and ph and co2 that is explained (better than I can!!) in this link

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=36155

hope that helps some,
Paul.

[Alight]

Frank, at least some CO2 is in the atmosphere around you and your tanks (the most prevalent greenhouse gas that has been increasing because of coal and petroleum use and causing global warming). The atmospheric CO2 will dissolve into your tank water just as O2 and N2 also dissolve into your tank water and will reach equilibrium eventually with the atmospheric levels. Disturbing the water surface in your tank, and moving the water around will decrease the amount of time it takes for this equilibrium to occur.

Plants will use more CO2 than they produce with one of the products being O2. Fish will use O2 and produce CO2. In a normal aquarium ( have to be truly packed with fish, or something is rotting to be otherwise) the amount of O2 and CO2 in the water won't be much different than in the atmosphere.

This is enough CO2 for plants to live, and for many plants to grow. This is a low tech tank without CO2 supplementation.

However, if all of the other necessary nutrients, and enough light is present, then the limiting factor for plant growth becomes CO2. They use this up before they use up any other nutrients. This causes a problem with algae growth since it does better than the plants with limited CO2 supply.

The amount of light is the key, which is the reason that low tech tanks use less watts per gallon than high tech tanks.

Anyway, there is always some CO2 in an aquarium for plants to use, unless there is too much light, and plenty of other nutrients.

All of us with planted tanks (unless we are blessed with the perfect blend of nutrients in our water) are always struggling with the proper balance of nutrients, light and CO2 to allow our plants to grow and thrive, and keep algae growth at a minimum.

This, to me, is the true "work" with a planted tank and is much more complicated intellectually than the "work" and knowledge necessary to grow and breed Discus fish.

[hexed]

Does anyone know anything about Fissiden Moss? I purchased some to put in the tank too! The seller told me it is very hardy as long as the temp does not go above 86 degrees and a low tech plant. But it was kinda expensive :(
Frank

[Alight]

Fissiden is a general name for many varieties of moss.

I just got some moss from FISA http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/swap-n-shop/25431-5-rare-moss-golfball-size.html that was quite nice, and not too expensive.

It seems to be doing well in my tank, so far.

I've found the biggest problem with mosses is keeping algae from overtaking it. You may find that, without CO2, this could be a problem.

To get it to adhere to rocks or wood, you need to fix it down quite well. I use many windings of fine black thread. Others suggest using staples, but it seems like it would take so many staples, that it would look pretty bad.

[hexed]

My next question. Can I add calcium to the water? If I decide to put a few apple snails or other inverts into the tank I would need to add this correct? Would it effect my tank in any way?

You guys are the best! I really appriciate you answering my questions and one day hope to be doing the same for someone else ;)

Frank

[hexed]

Alight,
I have two types of fissiden coming. If you look on plantedtank.net under the thread "scaping with fissiden" I am getting that one and the other looks like small to tiny maple leaves. I am also getting a small portion of a new moss called star-light moss to test for the seller. He really does not have any info on the new moss so he asked if I would let him know how it does in my tank. :)

[Alight]

Frank I didn't go back to check on your water conditions, at present. The calcium level is more for your discus comfort right? I mean, you keep it low for them? Calcium is great for plants (at any level that is appropriate for discus), and appropriate amounts of calcium carbonate are great for keep your KH in check which will keep your pH constant.

So if you have very soft water, and want to add calcium to keep the KH more stable, it will help the snails and plants.

Snails (unfortunately in my case) can live in very soft water. They will just have thin shells. I gave up and increased the GH of my water just to keep the pH more stable anyway, and now the snails have nice thick shells. I just had another population explosion of these, probably because I raised the GH so the loaches have more problems eating them.

I'm actually considering some other types of snails, as I've heard that some of them eat pond snail eggs, so might help to reduce the breeding cycle of the pond snail in my tank.

Let me know how your moss goes. I've found it fairly difficult to find inexpensive, nice moss.

Several on the planted tank forums have commented that the addition of magnesium can be beneficial, even if you have mildly hard water. I may try this soon, as I've noticed some of the same leaf malformations they describe that were fixed by slightly higher magnesium. As this is fixed with small additions of epsom salts (always in my medicine cabinet thanks to the possibility of discus bloat) it's easy to try.

I had no luck with cherry and amano shrimp, by the way. I was hoping they would survive because of the heavy planting, but the discus just found them too appealing. The loaches never even had a chance to get a taste. They are pretty cute, too. Too bad.

[hexed]

Alight right now I am working on the planted tank, it is not set up yet. Trying to figure a way to do the walls that will still show of my driftwood. My livingroom looks like a tornado went through it LOL! :)
My water straight from tap is 7.0 and if left overnight with air it is 6.8. My BB tanks are GH is 4 drops to turn the tube green. Temp is 82 degrees. Ammonia, nitrite and nitrate is zero. I have peat in my tanks which keeps the pH between 6.4-6.8. Driftwood will bring it between 6.4-6.8 ph as well, I had a big piece in my tank when I had sand in it. I do not have any problems keeping my bare bottom tanks this way nor did I have any problems when I had sand in them. I had apple snails in the past but the shells were dull because I did not add calcium to the water. Will calcium effect the pH? I was think of buying calcium tablets at work and just crush some but don't know? I work for Costco Wholesale and can get a huge bottle of the tabs :)
I am looking into dwarf crayfish which only get about 2 inches long when full grown. I don't think any of the fish can eat them if they are that big right?
Frank

[Alight]

I don't know about dwarf crayfish. I've heard the blue ones can get nippy and even kill some of the smaller fish.

Calcium does not dissolve well in water, so it may be difficult to get the tabs to dissolve.

All of the plants on your list will do fine in soft water. You will probably want to add a trace fertilizer like Fluorish to make sure you have the trace elements covered.

The snails should be OK with 4 GH, but may have thin shells. I kept my tank at 4 GH and the snails (which I really don't want) did have thin shells. When I upped it to 6 GH, the shells are now quite hard and thick. It may be that magnesium was a bigger factor than Ca, though, since I don't know my MG levels.

[hexed]

I just got back from my LFS and someone was there selling albino bristle nose placos babies. They are about 1 inch in length. He wanted the store to buy the 5 babies (4 albinos and 1 regular) he had left but they said they would give him $1 a piece LOL! Then they will sell them for $15 LOL!
Well I gave the man $15 and now own all 5, now that's a bargain! :)

[pcsb23]

Frank, I guess thats what they call being in the right place at the right time! Lucky so and so!!

Paul.

[hexed]

Paul,
I put them in my 10 gallon, it's full of algae. I had turned of the heater because I was going to empty it out but now there's green everywhere so put the heater back into it :)

Alight isn't Epson salt high in magnesium?
The seller of the dwarf crayfish said that the fish will not eat them because of the size (2 inches) and that the crayfish are a very pieceful ones and will not harm any fish or shrimp in the tank. They eat the same as cory catfish does. I will get some flourish. I also have "root tabs plus iron" tablets that you put under the plants.
Frank

[Alight]

Yes, Epsom salts are magnesium sulfate. Easy to add since all of us Discus owner have it in case of bloat.

You could try a few teaspoons of it if your snails' shells seem to be looking bad, and see if it helps. If not, Seachem makes a liquid supplement with Calcium in it that can be used to increase the GH and calcium that should do the trick.

[hexed]

I was looking on fostersmith.com or whatever their website is and it says that calcium will raise the pH. So, if it does how much would I put in the tank?

My new bristle noses are doing great so far. Made that tank their home very fast. Right now they are munching away on the algae that is everywhere LOL!

[wolfbane]

Frank, you lucky duck!! You sure got a bargain on those BN plecos!! They thrive in my big tank, and I never see any algae on the glass.

[hexed]

I will post some pics tomorrow because I leave the lights of when I get new fish so they can settle in better, :)

[Alight]

Calcium carbonate will raise your pH, as well as your hardness. It will go up about 0.3 pH units for every kH degree you raise the water and I think a bit more for pH units.

I really wouldn't add any to begin with. See how the plants, fish and snails are doing, and add only if they are not doing well. Your water is pretty darn good for Discus, and plants. I wouldn't fool with it unless something seems to be going wrong.

[hexed]

Well I must likely will hold off on the snails for now :)
I tried to take pics of my 5 little BN placos but they just won't come out. The albinos I can see all the green algae they ate in their bellies LOL! Never seen that before. All have full bellies now and are still going strong munching away!
Frank

[pcsb23]

Frank,

I agree with Al, if youdon't have to mess with your water then leave well alone.

It must be quite a picture seeing the albinos all nice and white cept for a full green belly, oh well they must feel at home!

Paul.

[Alight]

I had a problem with albino BN plecos. I lost three in my quarantine tank within 3 days of buying them. This tank had lots of algae in it that I grew on purpose, knowing they were coming. I added some driftwood, too. They ate lots of algae soon after I got them, then died for no apparent reason.

It could be the difference in the water where I got them (very hard) vs the soft water in the quarantine tank.

But someone suggested feeding them zuchini slices when I first got the, so I tried this, even with all the algae in the tank, and the new little plecos ate the zuchini and lived. I don't know if this was just chance, but I'll do it again if I ever buy more BNs.

[hexed]

Ok, I got some pics :)
Below is the front of the tank cover in algae. You can see the image of the regular baby placo.

[hexed]

Here is one with an albino again lots of algae.

[hexed]

Ok, now I came home from work and all the algae on the front of the tank is gone. Below is some better pics of the placos.

[hexed]

Here's another one :)

[hexed]

Last one of the regular BN on the side of driftwood :)
This is my QT 10 gallon tank and it was covered in algae esp the front and now it is almost completely clear of it.

[wolfbane]

They will need some par-cooked zuchinni slices now that the algae is gone, that and algae wafers. Mine LOVE zuchinni!!

[hexed]

What is "par cooked"?
I burn water LOL!

[wolfbane]

Ok, just microwave the zuke slices till they are translucent, you know, slightly see-thru,
makes them sink.

[hexed]

I will give it a try :)

[pcsb23]

Frank,

Efficient little so and so's aren't they! Actually like the look of the albinos. I generally find in planted tanks plecs do well as there is alwys bits of algae to get to, on the leaves, in the darker shaded areas and so on, as you'll have wood in there that will develop algae, not streaming hordes of it, it sort of look like an ageing of the wood. Its really nice, even if I haven't described it well.

Its good to see someone qt'ing them, I'm amazed at how many peole will qt their discus but just dump any other fish in the tank!

Al, you could be right about why you lost some of yours, I've had similar too. I think they are more sensitive than we think.

Paul.

[hexed]

Paul,
I am a BIG qt'er! Everything goes in my QT tank from plants to fish, snails to crabs they all go into it. I would rather be safe then sorry :)
I am so glad I did not take down my QTtank because then I know these little guys might not make it. Sometimes it is worth keeping it going ;)
Frank

[Alight]

Yes, those BN are amazing little algae eaters! Frank, to make things easier, you can buy already sliced, frozen zucchini, pull out a frozen slice, put it in a cup of water (coffee cup works fine) and put it in your microwave for one minute on high. Pull out the zucchini, let it cool a bit, and throw it in your tank. Even some of my discus like to munch on this stuff for a vegie treat once in a while.

Actually, I treat my BN and all other fish that I might add to my tanks (after I know they are going to survive) with levamisole and prazi in a quaratine tank (and give them 6 weeks) before I put them in with my discus. No sense in passing on tapeworms or nematodes when it's so easy to prevent them.

Al

[hexed]

Al,
What is levamisole? I never heard of it.
Frank

[Alight]

Levamisole is a common treatment for nematodes (until recently it was the drug of choice for livestock, now surplanted by invermectin). It is used instead of Flubendazole and fenbendazole, and like flubendazole, can be used in the water as well as in food to treat from nematode infections.

I have found it to be very benighn for treating all kinds of fish. I have not seen any side effects from its use, except in severely infested fish, in which case some digestive problems can occur, but these can be controlled with epsom salts. Some have had small fish (guppies and the like) die when treated with levamisole, and large worms died within the fish's intestines.

I treat new fish in quarantine with this as a precaution, as nematode infections in many fish can have no symptoms, but may infect Discus where symptoms may occur. Nematode problems seem to be a particular problem with fish raised in Asia, as many of the loaches are as well as many Discus.

[hexed]

I have a question concerning one of my placos. The non albino, the one I said was a regular BN I noticed today that he is covered in white spots, no not any fungus but looks like he is pokadoted. Is this normal for a BN? I have seen black placos with white spots on aquabid, but never seen one that is a BN. Are they all born with spots and lose them as they get older?

Frank

[hexed]

When I first got him he had no spots LOL! Just a solid color.

[pcsb23]

Frank,

Honest answer is I don't know! It's certainly NOT whitespot LOL. I used to think BN's were pretty plain brownish colour! Maybe its not a BN after all?? Perhaps an L plec of some sort?? I's nice though, if you don't want him, put him on a plane to me!!

Paul.

[bz79]

Frank:
Yes bristlenose can have spots and sometimes an almost reticulated pattern, they can be highly variable.

Also the reason it may not of had spots when it arrived is that they fade when stressed. Most pleco's I have dealt with are highly faded in pattern and color when they arrive after shipping. Sometimes it takes a week or longer for full color to return.

[hexed]

Well, the albinos do have faint spots cause I can see them. They are all from the same two BN placo parents according to the guy who was trying to sell them to my local aquarium, but he was just all brownish black. He must be very happy now :)
The spots seem to get whiter everyday :) I guess we will see what it turns out to be?

[wolfbane]

Hey Frank, My BNs all have spots! And....since they live in the discus tank and eat what the discus eat too......colorbits for one....some of my regular BNs have orange spots!!

[hexed]

Ok,
So if they eat just a little colorbits then they will have half white half orange spots LOL! The albinos might turn dark orange too? That would be cool :)
All the BN I see on auctions have no spots that's why it took me by surprise ;)

[hexed]

Update,
The plants have arrived way before schedule :p The seller must have forgotten that we were going to hold shipping until the end of February. Will the plants live in my 10 gallon QT until I finish setting up the 150 gallon? The QT is bare bottom and the plants are floating in it. He treated all the plants for me except one which he said he would do and labeled the bags. I asked not to treat one so my new Zebra loaches I am getting would have snails to munch on. I ordered a lot but it doesn't look like a alot LOL!
Frank

[scans]

Plant orders do not usually look too impressive in the bag/box. You will not get the full feeling of your order until you plant them all in a tank. I was very upset at my first order until I realized I was running out of room in my 240 while planting it!

[hexed]

Well my moss arrived today. I just have to figure on how to tie it to the driftwood. Now when I tie the plants like java fern to I cut the roots off and where do I place the thread?
Frank

[imatrout]

Well my moss arrived today. I just have to figure on how to tie it to the driftwood. Now when I tie the plants like java fern to I cut the roots off and where do I place the thread?
Frank

Here's one of the most helpful hints for tying plants to stuff.

Go to a flyfishing store. You will find they have threads in very very thin yet stong sizes and colors as well as hair thin monofilament thread. They also have a tool for fly tying called a bobbin that you place the spool on for dispensing while you tie. You get complete control of the thread with one hand and get string consistent wraps and knots. Trust me on this one, it makes tying 1000% easier.

[hexed]

Trout,
I have tied plants before but they always died on me. So I am basically asking do I tie the crown or tie the stem?
I will check into what you suggested because the thread seems to break on me before the plant attaches. Then I have to retie it again and again LOL!
Frank

[pcsb23]

Frank,

When I've done it, I use eleasticated thread and if the plant doesn't have a tuber or rizhome I tie through the crown. The advantage of elastic thread is it generally will not cut into the plant but will hold it firmly in place. It doesn't break easy either!

hth,
Paul.

[hexed]

This is my plan for now. Since almost all the plants have come in and my 150 is not ready. I am thinking of potting them and putting them in my 55 gallon with the compact lighting. Now I have 3 on/off switches and 6400 bulbs. I can turn on two bulbs which are 65 watts each so they will give me 2.36 watts per gallon for the 55. This should be enough or should I turn all 4 bulbs on which will give me 4.72 watts per gallon?
Frank

[pcsb23]

Frank,

If they are going to be in there for a week or two I'd keep it at 2 bulbs, 4.72 wpg is a heck of a lot of light and without careful ferts and CO2 you would most likely end up with algae. Most the plants you got will do ok at 2.36wpg.

Paul.

[hexed]

Paul what should I do about my air in the 55 gallon leave it on or shut it off? Or just adjust it so it flows slowly? I will be away and want everything including the discus to be ok.
Frank

[hexed]

Paul my friend you never answered my question and it's been a week LOL!

[Alight]

Are the plants in the tank with your Discus? If so, leave the air on! The Discus are much more important than the plants. In a low tech tank (no CO2), aeration doesn't matter at all. Even in a high tech tank, Diss says it only costs maybe $5 more year just to jack up the CO2 output to compensate for the additional loss of CO2.

Al Light

[pcsb23]

Frank,

Sorry I missed the last post, things got hectic, new fish and tanks.. but thats another story. The tank with plants I'd leave running, lights on a timer if poss. Provided no fish in ther as Al says it should be ok. I agree with Diss, the fish come firts! if it costs a few quid more for CO2 so what??

Hope the hol was good!

Paul.

[hexed]

Right now they are in my 10 gallon with the placos. Unfortunately all the stems are not doing well. I put some of them in with my discus but they are dying :( I think they might have froze because of the weather. There was no heat pack in the box.

[Alight]

Frank, don't give up on the stems. Put some good light on them, make sure you have at least some nitrate in the water (10 ppm would be good), and forget algae, at least for now.

I had some Rotala Magenta that came with actual frost freezing the stems together. It looked pretty bad, but came back nicely after a few weeks. The bottoms sort of dropped off, but I cut off the dead parts, re-tied them with lead weights , and planted them in the gravel. I'm actually giving away a few trimmings of the stuff now, it's doing so well.

If you haven't already, if the stems are in bunches, unbind them, separate them, lay them out on your kitchen counter. (make sure you take off any rubber bands--you don't want to elastically bind them). Take out any that are obviously rotting. Trim off and dead or dying parts. Bind no more than 3 or 4 stems together with lead weights (I break the lead weights into very small pieces--just bend them back and forth to break of the the right size), then put them back in the bottom of your tank. Plenty of light over them, for now! If you start to get algae, try pulling it off by hand. If there is more than you can handle, back off on the light.



Al

[hexed]

Thanks guys! Al I will do that with what I have left which isn't much :( I have half the westiria and a couple annibus (sp) everything else is gone :(
I am going to throw some sand in my 55 gallon and throw everything in there for now with the compact lights on it. should be enough if I do like Paul said and only use two bulbs instead of all four.
Frank

[Alight]

Frank, Wisteria is pretty wild stuff. It will regenerate itself from even bits of leaves! It's quite a bit like the broom sticks in the sorceres apprentice. If you hack to pieces, all of the pieces will form roots and grow, even the smallest bits of leaves! The submerged form looks very different than the emersed form.

It can grow in several forms submersed, too, depending on the lighting.

[wolfbane]

Don't give up Frank, I'm a complete amature and I am growing the best crop of hair algae you ever saw!! Oh yeah, and the other plants are growing too!

[hexed]

Wolf,
LOL! I am still trying and won't give up!!

Ok,
I threw sand in my 55 gallon and put the plants in there for now with the compact light using only two bulbs not all 4. Here are two pics. I think I will need more plants though. These are the only ones that survived while I was on vacation and then again during this week while we had the death of Jimmy's brother to deal with :(

[hexed]

here's another one

[candyl70]

Wow Frank!!! Your tank is looking beautiful!!! What sort of other plants are you going to start adding?

[wolfbane]

Frank, nice 55! Sorry to hear of sadness for your family. The plants will multiply as they aclimate and reward your care with more!
check out my tank here too!

[hexed]

Candy & Wolf, Thanks!
But the 55 gallon is not going to be my planted tank LOL!

I do have more QUESTIONS LOL!

How much eco-complete do I need to order for my 150 gallon? Also do I have to mix it with anything like Flourite? I have no clue how much 20 pounds will cover LMAO!
Frank :angel:

[wolfbane]

Lots! I don't think you need to mix it, but I really don't use it, so don't know.

[diablocanine]

Candy & Wolf, Thanks!
But the 55 gallon is not going to be my planted tank LOL!

I do have more QUESTIONS LOL!

How much eco-complete do I need to order for my 150 gallon? Also do I have to mix it with anything like Flourite? I have no clue how much 20 pounds will cover LMAO!
Frank :angel:

Here is a link to a substrate calculator:

http://www.plantedtank.net/substratecalculator.html

Hope it helps....DC

[hexed]

Thanks DC!

Does anyone know where I can get a good deal on Eco complete! I see Big Als has it for 17.99 but wants 7.95 to ship each bag :(
According to that calculator I will need about 10 bags!!
The owner of my local aquarium said I could get away with putting Flourite as a base and eco complete on top if it. I think he sais that because he sells Flourite for 23.99 a 15 pound bag LOL!
Frank :angel:

[Alight]

flourite and eco can be mixed. Flourite can also be use by itself. Some mix half and half flourite and gravel and have great success. I just use plain gravel and supplement with plant root tabs.

[pcsb23]

I just use either plain gravel like Al or I put an inch layer of sterilised topsoil down and put gravel on that. If you go with more than an inch of soil you need to deal with anaerobic spots.

[diablocanine]

Thanks DC!

Does anyone know where I can get a good deal on Eco complete! I see Big Als has it for 17.99 but wants 7.95 to ship each bag :(
According to that calculator I will need about 10 bags!!
The owner of my local aquarium said I could get away with putting Flourite as a base and eco complete on top if it. I think he sais that because he sells Flourite for 23.99 a 15 pound bag LOL!
Frank :angel:

Have you ever seen soilmaster? A 50 lb bag is around $20. They have different colors, you can pick a color to match flourite or eco and mix it 50/50. I have seen people use 100% soilmaster but I think it is too lightweight to firmly hold plants down. Soilmaster can be bought at Lesco.

http://www.lesco.com/?PageID=87&Keyword=soilmaster&Category=25&Group=045&Type=059&Form=1255

Use store locator to see if one is near you. Do not know if anyone else sells it but I would think you could order it through your local home improvement store.

[hexed]

I can get only this one 080310 - PRO'S CHOICE SOILMASTER SOIL CONDITIONER (RED) 50#

Is this the same? What do I need to do with this before putting it in the tank?

[diablocanine]

I can get only this one 080310 - PRO'S CHOICE SOILMASTER SOIL CONDITIONER (RED) 50#

Is this the same? What do I need to do with this before putting it in the tank?

I believe it is, where did you find it at? How will the red color match with flourite? Are you thinking of mixing it with red flourite? I use the charcoal color, it matches good with onyx sand. I would be interested in knowing how it looks mixed with flourite. It will cloud up but not as bad as flourite, I would rinse it well.

[hexed]

I went to the link you posted above and then did a store locator. There is one, one town over from me. That is the only color they carry :) It is $15.99 for a 50 pound bag.
Frank

[hexed]

I wanted to show you what my 55 gallon looks like now. I pulled out all the dead plants that I thought would come back but did not. Next time I get plants and they are covered with ice I will tell the seller :(
The plants on the left are from Alight. I put a plant tab under each plant, is this a good idea? Should I remove the sponge filter?
I can't use my kitchen table cause it's covered in river rock LOL, been making my walls for the 150 gallon ;)
Thanks,
Frank :angel:

[pcsb23]

Hey Frank,

Nice looking tank, that looks like one lovely San Merah top left side-ish. Personally I'd leave the fikter there. The plants are only in here temporary (aren't they??). I put tabs under or near all my big root feeding plants. Probably use a foil up every two or three months.

[hexed]

Paul,
Actually that is my blue ghost female, she turned dark orange from the color bits :(
Yes it temporrary, but I can put the sponge in my other 55 gallon if need be :)

[Alight]

What's wrong with having a sponge filter? I have them in all my tanks. Shouldn't have any negative effect on the plants, and only positive effects on the fish. Plant tabs are a great idea for all of the plants you put it. The cabomba (far left) probably doesn't need it, but it won't hurt. Glad to see the plants all made it. Did you trim back the green temple? I remember it being much larger. It will grow and grow and grow, though. Fortunately fairly slowly without high light and CO2.

You may want to divide up the Rotala Magenta (the soft red plant) as it needs at least moderate lighting and will shade itself if kept altogether. Once you put it in your new tank, you can bunch it up like you have it if you wish, although you will find that it will get very, very thick and bushy, so you'll need to divide it up from time to time (and give away a bunch to others on Simply Discus, LOL).

You should expect some major changes in your Amazon Sword plants. The rounded shape of the leaves indicate that it was grown emersed. The submerged leaves are long and narrow (I think nicer). These will be what will grow in as new leaves. In my high light tank, all of the old leaves also continued to grow for many months. I ripped some of the old leaves off because the plant was getting so thick and large--I only have a 55 gallon tank--not really big enough for a monster Sword plant. I gave away a bunch of babies from this plant. No new baby stalks at present, but I haven't put a root tab under the Sword lately (time to redo them) so probably will go crazy again when I do.

[pcsb23]

Well Frank, thats the orangest Blue Ghost I've ever seen (and I can't blame my monitor this time):D

Its still looks nice though.

[hexed]

Al,
Is that why all my sword plants die on me LOL
If those Megenta's grow for me I will give some away on Simply LOL!
I can grow any plant in my house or outside in the yard but when it comes to aquarium plants I seem to have problems. I will conquer this if it takes me forever LOL!

Paul,
No your monitor is just fine LOL! I was told not to feed them red color foods cause it will bring the orangy red color out of them but it was too late LMAO! I guess I will have to see if they will eat tetrabits instead ;)

Frank :angel:

[Alight]

Frank, growing the plants is easy if you have enough light and the macro and micro nutrients are OK. The biggest problem is controling the algae which takes a little fine tuning.

The only plant I have trouble with is any kind of moss. This is not because the moss won't grow, but because it gets contaminated with algae. It's really hard to get rid of algae in moss once it gets started.

[hexed]

Al,
The moss seems to never die LOL! I actually threw away all my java moss when I removed my sand and went BB. All the plants died on me LOL. Now I have a little Christmas moss tied to a piece of driftwood in with my kribs. The female krib seems to really like it she tries to get into it until she is completely covered. I added AlgaeFix to my tank to keep the algae away. So far it is working :)
Frank

[pcsb23]

I've just recently given up on moss and removed what I had because it was gummend up with algae. At the moment I'm just on the winning side with algae, as in I'm getting some but not as much. Once I've got that back to minimum I'll add some moss again. Basically I made some changes to my display tank and its gone a bit out of balance, never satisfied thats our trouble. :D

[Alight]

I've just recently given up on moss and removed what I had because it was gummend up with algae. At the moment I'm just on the winning side with algae, as in I'm getting some but not as much. Once I've got that back to minimum I'll add some moss again. Basically I made some changes to my display tank and its gone a bit out of balance, never satisfied thats our trouble.

Yep, been there, done that, doing that, going to do that.

Al

[pcsb23]

Yep, been there, done that, doing that, going to do that.

Al
:D

[hexed]

I am thinking of doing a CO2 unit in my 150 gallon. I have purchased a Milwaukee Co2 MA957 Regulator Set(Regulator, Needle Valve, Electric "on/off" Solenoid, bubble counter)
I checked around and I found a place to supply the CO2 but my next question is what else would I need for this set up? I mean does the tubing just bubble in the tank? Please remember that I have no clue about CO2 so you will have to explain this to me in ways I will understand - it's a blond thing LMAO!
Frank :angel:

[hexed]

hello,
no onr replied to me LOL!
What is the difference between a reactor and a diffuser?

[pcsb23]

Hi Frank,

Sorry bro been busy elswhere. Reactor and diffuser?? From my point of view they are or do the same thing. That is to allow the CO2 a long enough contact time with the water. There may be a 'technical' difference but I've always thought of them as the same thing.

In answer to your other question above, the diffuser/reactor goes in the tank, the CO2 bubbles up it and dissolves in the water. Hook your solenoid up to the timer for the lights, no point using CO2 at night.

hth,

[diablocanine]

I am thinking of doing a CO2 unit in my 150 gallon. I have purchased a Milwaukee Co2 MA957 Regulator Set(Regulator, Needle Valve, Electric "on/off" Solenoid, bubble counter)
I checked around and I found a place to supply the CO2 but my next question is what else would I need for this set up? I mean does the tubing just bubble in the tank? Please remember that I have no clue about CO2 so you will have to explain this to me in ways I will understand - it's a blond thing LMAO!
Frank :angel:

I had my blonde wife proof read this! I would recommend getting a PH controller/monitor for a planted discus tank, opinions and reasons are in my sticky: http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=49139

Here is a powered reactor:
http://www.azgardens.com/images/pgp-powereactor.jpg
Co2 enters the chamber and powerhead swirls the CO2 and water together, fine CO2 bubbles exit the bottom through the sponge. I use one of these in my sump. Benefit: very efficient. See sticky for pic. http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=49139

Here is an external reactor
http://aquabotanicwetthumb.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=4006090712&f=8006023812&m=9556098022
It connects to a cannister filter. The water courses through the reactor and CO2 is injected through a port in the reactor. Water and CO2 mix and then enter the tank. Benefit: resides outside of tank.

Here is a diffuser, CO2 is pushed through small holes in the bell. I don't use one of these so cannot really attest to the benefits.
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=9915&Ntt=glass+co2&Ntk=All&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&Np=1&pc=1&N=0&Nty=1

Here is what is referred to as a ladder.
http://www.bigalsonline.com/catalog/product.xml?product_id=19239;category_id=2873;pcid 1=3349;pcid2=
This is usually used with a DIY yeast system. CO2 enters the ladder at the bottom at goes back and forth until it reaches the top, dissolving CO2 into the water along the way. Benefit: Easy to use and effective for small tanks.

I use all of these except the glass diffuser. For larger tanks (over 40 gallons) I would recommend a reactor. I make external CO2 reactors. If you have a cannister filter and decide to use an external reactor, let me know and I will build one for you, I can get pics of it this weekend....DC

[Alight]

One more idea for a reactor. I just put my CO2 into my AC 110 HOB filter.

Probably a moot point as I see you're using a canister filter. Probably not enough action because of no impeller to diffuse the CO2 in a canister filter.

I think Stiver James was selling some external CO2 reactors of the Rex Rigg persuasion on the trading threads.

This grinds up the CO2 as well as any reactor. No large bubbles are ever seen. Most of the CO2 is fully dissolved, and what isn't is in the form of very fine bubbles, which Barr (I think it was Tom) actually found to be the most effective form of CO2.

Certainly cheap, takes up no extra space inside or outside the tank.

I just melted a small hole in the top part of the intake tube, smaller than the CO2 resistant tubing, cut the tubing to a point, and pushed it into the intake. Then, just forget about it.

One more thing I would recommend, Frank, is a brass check valve. I used a plastic one, and it gave out in less thant a month. CO2 is pretty corrosive. You'll want the check valve as when the solenoid clicks off, water will tend to be pushed back down the tubing towards your bubble counter. I haven't had it get to the counter, yet, but it could get there. The pressurized CO2 pushes out all the water, so it is probably not a big problem.

[hexed]

Thanks guys!
DC I am using two canisters on the tank. Can you post a pic for me? Is it easy to install LOL? My kitchen table is cover in river rocks LMAO! Building my walls ;)
Frank

[Alight]

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=49563

Above is the post from Stivers for inline CO2 reactors. I think the aquabotanic thread that Diss posted shows reactors of this type.

Al

[diablocanine]

Thanks guys!
DC I am using two canisters on the tank. Can you post a pic for me? Is it easy to install LOL? My kitchen table is cover in river rocks LMAO! Building my walls ;)
Frank

What kind of cannister filters do you have (need to know filter hose size)? It is easy to install, connect filter hoses to barbs and CO2 to barb. All connections I use are brass, pvc and brass, no plastic to breakdown or leak CO2. I will get pics to you....DC

[hexed]

Ok,
Here is my I already have list to date:

Clean up crew:
2 Angelicas Loaches
2 Zebra Loaches
2 SAE (real ones)
6 Dwarf crayfish (only grows to 2- 2 1/4 inches and claws are too small to harm fish)
4 bamboo shrimp (algae control)

Fish:
about 10 adult discus
1 black ghost knife fish
12 rummynose or cardinal tetras
2-3 pairs of apisto triple reds

Substrate:
Either eco complete and flourite or flourite and gravel (planted side)
White sand for foreground to bring out my manmade walls :)

Filters:
2 Odyssea 4 CFS canister filters

CO2:
Milwaukee 957 Daul Guage CO2 Regulator with needle valve, solenoid valve, and bubble counter. Displays out put pressure and bottle pressure.
Need to get a reactor thingy :)

Plants:
Have a lot now. The seller who sold me the first batch resent me a new batch and they came today :D

Anything else I need?

DC, show me what it looks like please?
Frank

[Alight]

Hopefully DC will show you how to hook up your reactor with the filters.

Do you have timers for the lights?

I'm about to add another timer for the CO2. After a few weeks of using my Milwaukee regulator hooked into my light timer, I have figured out that it takes about 2-2.5 hours for the CO2 to come up to the proper tank level after the solenoid clicks on with the lights. The, the CO2 remains high for about the same time once the lights go off.

Since the plants take about an hour to come up to full growth after the lights turn on, I figure if I have the CO2 come on about an hour before the light come on, and go off about an hour before, the CO2 levels should be more stable for the plant growth, and hopefully, the algae growth will be less.

I also figured out that in spite of the fantasic pearling going on, that the CO2 levels were a bit low, so I'm very gradually upping them now to find out if I can get a better level going, and thus, less algae growth again.

Al Light

[pcsb23]

Frank,

You asked about reactors etc, check DC's plans out. Another top job by him.

http://forum.simplydiscus.com//showthread.php?t=49767

Some people are too clever! :D

[pcsb23]

Hopefully DC will show you how to hook up your reactor with the filters.

Do you have timers for the lights?

I'm about to add another timer for the CO2. After a few weeks of using my Milwaukee regulator hooked into my light timer, I have figured out that it takes about 2-2.5 hours for the CO2 to come up to the proper tank level after the solenoid clicks on with the lights. The, the CO2 remains high for about the same time once the lights go off.

Since the plants take about an hour to come up to full growth after the lights turn on, I figure if I have the CO2 come on about an hour before the light come on, and go off about an hour before, the CO2 levels should be more stable for the plant growth, and hopefully, the algae growth will be less.

I also figured out that in spite of the fantasic pearling going on, that the CO2 levels were a bit low, so I'm very gradually upping them now to find out if I can get a better level going, and thus, less algae growth again.

Al Light

Al,

I'll be interested in how this works out for you. I'm wondering if the plants need a gentle startup period (and shut down) or they can just hit the road running so to speak.

[wolfbane]

Frank, do bamboo shrimp eat algae? I thought they were filter feeders that got tiny bits of food from the current.

[hexed]

Bamboo shrimp are filter feeders that remove the algae from the water current.
I do not have the SAE they did not survive the shipping :(
But I now have 7 Zebra loaches, 2 Angelicas and 2 Zodiac loaches. I also got 14 longfin Albino BN placos babies but not all are going into the planted tank ;) I will put some in all my tanks :D

Waiting on the CO2 regulator (has come in the mail yet) and the reactor which DC is building for me :)

I think that is everything but the substrate, is there anything else I am forgetting?
Frank :angel:

[hexed]

I just want to tell everyone that my plants are doing so well and none are dead or dying!
Al - those red plants are taking off! I still have one Hydro (I think , it has pink on the leaves) well what ever it is there was only the very top that was alive and it is now about 7 inches tall :)

I want to THANK everyone again for all the help they have given me with this new venture of mine ;)

HAPPY EASTER,
Frank :angel:

[Alight]

I know you'll post some pictures when it's all set up.

Al Light

[pcsb23]

I know you'll post some pictures when it's all set up.

Al Light

He'd better!!

[Spices]

Oh, boy... I missed this thread. But it's not ever too late. ;) Lovely tanks you both have, Frank & Debra. Very nice.

This is a wonderful forum for resources. I tell ya. I check in every now and then and then I'm off to adventure. :)

*Angie*

[hexed]

Ok Al,
Here's pics of the 55 gallon right now. Sorry but the 150 isn't set up yet cause I am still working on what I want to do to it LOL ;)

[hexed]

Here's the right side

[hexed]

Here's the left side

[diskboy]

you got some fat kribs

[Alight]

Looks like the R. Magenta, Cabomba and Red Temple are doing well for you. The red tipped plant with the purple undersides of the leaves is Red Temple. This stuff will all look magnificent amongst the green plants in your big tank!

[wolfbane]

....Frank, does your cabomba close up in the evening? That's when I know its time to turn off the lights!

[hexed]

OK,
A blond moment LMAO - which one is cabomba? LOL!
I am sorry but I still do not know which plant is what LOL :p

[Alight]

The soft green plant in the back left hand part of your tank is cabomba.

Al

[hexed]

Yes it does close at night LOL I thought that was parrot feather LMAO!

[diablocanine]

Nice tank Frank, lets get that other one going!....DC

[wolfbane]

That's OK Frank, I keep forgetting which Rotala is which! Sorry Al, It's all I can do to remember which has narrow leaves and which has full leaves!

[hexed]

OK,
Here's an update for you all :)
here are two pics of my wall so far. I finally found something to hold it together were it will stay strong enough to hold the substrate. Unfortunately I have to make the wall in 8 inch pieces ;) Give me your honest imputs!!!!
Frank :angel:

[hexed]

another

[pcsb23]

How high are they, I'm struggling for scale?

[hexed]

Paul,
They are almost 3.5 inches high and there are spaces in the bottom to allow for circulation. These are are the first row, I have not started the wall for the tiers yet. Do you think that they are too high?
Frank

[pcsb23]

Not really too high, provided there is some circulation then anaerobic spots shouldn't form. It will allow for a nice bed of rich substrate for the plants. A lot of the heavy root feeders prefer a deeper bed anyways.

At first I thought they were like a foot high!! Doh!! I'd expect the white putty or cement to discolour a bit to blend in so that should look very nice indeed.

[wolfbane]

Frank, could you press gravel into the putty to give it a more natural look? You know, just on the outside side. I'm following this project closely, thinking of remodeling my tank.

[hexed]

Debbie,
Yes you can :) I did not want to cause I know the white will get a greenish algae color and that is what I am looking for. I want to get the idea that the walls were there for a long time ;)
It's messy and time consuming but I am having fun doing it LOL! ;)
Frank

[Kindredspirit]

( i made it ) Frank it looks ........interesting babe! Where did you get such an idea? Are those huge rocks or little stones? I think it looks great! I want to see the finished wall ~

I know I know....I cld read this entire 200page thread for more info....but...um...no ~ lol!



Love ya tho!!



xo~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[hexed]

Marie,
They are small polished river rocks :)

[candyl70]

Your wall looks awesome Frank!!! I like it much better than fake carved out stones.... More pics please :D :D

[hexed]

Ok, I have decided to also include living walls in my 150 gallon too! What do you think of that idea LOL

[Kindredspirit]

Ok, I have decided to also include living walls


...as opposed to dead walls? Great idea, dear ....love it!



Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/29/29_4_11.gif

[pcsb23]

Ok, I have decided to also include living walls in my 150 gallon too! What do you think of that idea LOL

I've tried it in the past with a moss, looked good for a while but don't think my skills were up to keeping it good at the time. Might give it another go sometime in the future. I have seen some spectacular displays with these in though. What are you thinking of using?

[Alight]

I'd also love to have live walls, but algae has been the bane of it. When (notice I don't say "if") I get my algae situation under control, I'll do it again.

Al

[hexed]

Paul,
I am going to use coconut fiber. I bought 4 rolls and went to the craft store and bought plastic mesh. I am going to use fishing line and sew the fiber to the mesh and attach some fissiden and moss to it. I am hoping that if I get enough plants in the tank it will keep the algae down. Hey, if it don't work or I don't like it I can always toss it in the trash and attach the plants to my driftwood LOL

[wolfbane]

Where does one get coconut fiber, this sounds interesting!

[hexed]

I got it in Petco in the crab section

[hexed]

OK,
I was not thinking straight tonight LMAO! I tried to tie my fissiden to one of the driftwood for my big tank LOL. I did my best but NEVER tied plants before. Below is a pic of it, please let me know if I did something wrong.

After I was done I was like where am I putting this huge piece LOL :D
I put it in my BB 55 gallon and after I finally got it in there I realized I put it in backwards LOL! The rock is only there to hold it down ;)
Frank

[hexed]

I have 5 of these little guys :)
They are young adults, they only grow to about 2 inches and thier claws are only a quarter inch and are harmless to most fish.

[hexed]

I also picked up 5 of these bichirs because I felt sorry for them. They were in a tank that was so full they had no where to go to get away from the swarm of catfish and pacus. I will find homes for some of them :)

[pcsb23]

Frank, there are some people who just seem to have a knack at tying plants onto wood, it takes me forever and I'm never saitisfied with the outcome. From the pic you've posted your looks fine to me. The good thing with this method is that in a few months it all grows in and looks like its been there forever.

[candyl70]

Ok, I have decided to also include living walls in my 150 gallon too! What do you think of that idea LOL


Just came back and saw that!!! You bugger! Any more pics of your wall?
Love the driftwood too. When I tried to tie on my java moss, it was a mess and kept coming out from under the thread! LOL :p

[Kindredspirit]

The good thing with this method is that in a few months it all grows in and looks like its been there forever.



One can only hope ~ I just got my first real plants and tied them to the driftwood and ....well ~


Stay tuned~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_44.gif


Looks nothing like things here...



M ~

[pcsb23]

Candy/Marie,

Practice makes perfect - and damn do I need some practice then! I find using the elasticated thread the easiest to use.

[marilyn1998]

Paul,

That elasticized thread was the best!!! I am still all tumbs, but it is nice to work with. Cant imagine using cotton thread at all.

[candyl70]

LOL Paul!!! Wish I would have known that before :D I used cotton thread and OMG what a PITA that was!!!

[hexed]

Marie, this is what I was talking about.

I need some feedback. I am waiting for the holdfast to come in at my LFS. While I am waiting I decided to make a cave for my black ghost and dragon gobies to hide in. I purchased a habitrail tube (for a hampster) and wrapped it in coconut fiber. I used fishing line to hold the fiber to the tube. The problem was it would only float LOL. Well I attached some java moss to the top portion and now it sinks :D
Please tell me what you think - good or bad!

[hexed]

top view

[hexed]

bottom view

[Spices]

That is pretty creative. How are the (wall of) stones holding up? We need update of pixs. So snap away and download. ;)

*angie*

PS. We're having another thundering/lightening storm in NY...I'm going offline soon...here we go again. Yipes!

[Alight]

Should work very well. Nice tunnels for them. If I had those, I'd never see my plecos and loaches--heck hardly see them any more anyway!

[pcsb23]

Pretty good Frank, just need to find a way to stp them rolling and they will look great! Agree with Al, they'll never leave them! :)

[Kindredspirit]

Marie, this is what I was talking about.

I need some feedback. I am waiting for the holdfast to come in at my LFS. While I am waiting I decided to make a cave for my black ghost and dragon gobies to hide in. I purchased a habitrail tube (for a hampster) and wrapped it in coconut fiber. I used fishing line to hold the fiber to the tube. The problem was it would only float LOL. Well I attached some java moss to the top portion and now it sinks :D
Please tell me what you think - good or bad!




Miss me? I made I made it ~ lol!! It looks great Frank! What an incredible idea to say the least ~ How did you ever come up with this one???

Do Tell Babe ~



xo ~


Marie ~ http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif