True or false: Culls cull themselves?

[Albanets]

As I mentioned before, I have a small population (15) of juvenile BDs. It is fun to watch them.
One of my observations was that although they are of the same age, there is quiet a difference in size, 2 or even 3 fold between the biggest and the smallest in the group... I had 2 fish that were smallest, stunt fry, what are called here 'culls'.
One day these culls have stopped eating and literally starved themselved to death in 2 weeks.
I know I should be very alert and throw pounds of metro and salt in the water, raise temp, etc., but somehow I felt that they are not sick, this is very natural process and stunt fish should be destroyed anyway.
So I did nothing.
Do you have this feeling that sometimes the weakest in the group culls himself?

[Tony_S]

So why dont you just identify the weaker fish of the group and cull them as humanely as possible?

Why allow them to starve to death??

To be aware that they are starving to death....and do nothing....is kind of....TWISTED!

Tony

[Bainbridge Mike]

I suppose this is akin to natural selection. Still, I would have a hard time watching them die slowly. Perhaps if you divided the fish into two groups, by size, the smaller fish might get enough to eat and with time, catch up with the others?

Mike

[Barb Newell]

Through watching 'culls' at feeding time, I find they seem to have very very bad eyesight. I wonder if that is the reason they end up the way they do.

Barb

[Albanets]

Barb: yes, I had the same feeling too.
As for why letting them starve to death - I just hoped that is was temporary and they would improve... didn't happen...
Placing in another tank wouldn't help, I think. Culls had enough food, and enough time to eat it, they weren't stressed... they just didn't feel like it. You know. ;)

[Ryan]

I don't think there's any such thing as a healthy discus "not feeling like it" in regards to eating. Either there was an issue with their health, they were stressed, or they were being chased away from food.

A lot of people have culls in their tanks. Just because a discus has bad eyesight and has a hard time hitting food doesn't mean that it isn't hungry. I've had these types of discus with eyesight problems and they frantically try to get food, they don't just sit there.

Ryan

[Tony_S]

Culls had enough food, and enough time to eat it, they weren't stressed... they just didn't feel like it. You know. ;)

The Intelligence and intellect of your logic is overwhelming!

Nuff said.....

Tony

[Elcid]

False

[ShinShin]

I doubt that there was not another problem here. With the information given, I'd suppose it was a stress related malady that caused their demise. For the sake and benefit of all the discus in the tank, the keeper ought to have culled the fish himself.

Mat

[Albanets]

Speaking frankly, I keep very close and careful eye on them. Keep stable params, daily wcs and feed variety of food. If I saw any kind of bacterial infection, hexamita or any parasites, darkening, hiding in a corner, white feces, scratching agains objects or bloat, I would put them in QT tank immediately and treat. Point is that these were healthy and did not show any sign of stress!
In the future I will just cull them myself by placing in the freezer.

[Ryan]

Point is that these were healthy and did not show any sign of stress!

That still doesn't explain why the fish stopped eating. Isn't that what the survival instinct is? A healthy fish should continue eating if it is to mature and reproduce to ensure the survival of a species. That's what fish do. The argument that the fish simply quit eating because they chose to is a weak one. JMO.

Ryan

[Kindredspirit]

Al~

You do not think you could have done something? I would be on here in a New York Minute if any one of my discus stopped eating~
If any animal just quit eating on a dime, there has to be a good reason.... come on now, work with us here~


It didnt bother you at all to watch them starve? I am speechless and some would say that is impossible~ I will think of this for a while....

At least you have decided a better course of action, yes?


Marie~http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_4_10.gif

[candyl70]

Do you have this feeling that sometimes the weakest in the group culls himself?

Well.... uh.. No! I think that all healthy fish eat. You must have missed some sort of signs that the fish were stressed or sick. Sorry, but no healthy animal just up and decides to kill itself through starvation or any other means. I have some fish that are runted and have never seen the fish stop eating just because. Sorry to say, I know it's not what you want to hear, but you did ask for the opinion of others. So.... this is mine.

[Barb Newell]

From my experience, most culls live very unhappy lives and yes... I've seen them stop eating for a day or two.. then start again.. then stop... sit listlessly in the corner... then start eating again -- they go on this way. I imagine that their bodies/organs are shutting down on them, and at this point, sadly I don't think much can save them except to euthanize them in the most humane way possible.... trust me, I've tried to save them!

I do have two culls who have survived... one little guy was born with only one eye, he's doing good, cute as can be, he's smaller than the rest of the group but I watch him daily, he gets food and the others don't pick on him.. amazingly the others fight amongst themselves but I have never seen them touch this little guy. The other is 'pin eye'(Cary named him LOL) -- he has one large eye, one smaller eye, one normal gill plate, one missing.. he turned 2 yrs in December/05, he holds his own with fish 4-5x his size, he's even trying to seduce one of the large females in the tank -- he's been a fighter from day one, and continues to be.

I will never breed these fish... but they are doing ok and as long as they are not suffering and eating, I'll continue to care for them.

Al, I hear what you're saying, but don't agree that culls cull themselves. I hear you say that you care for them and hope that nature takes it's course... but... we confine them to tanks (four glass walls) and we protect them from predators.

I suppose, in the wild, the culls, sadly, wouldn't live very long.





Barb

[Jason]

some just shut down like they are pre-programmed too, some will always have health issues, some won't grow.

There is a reason why fish have 300 babies.

[AADiscus]

If they have not eaten in quit a while, more than likely they are sick with SOMETHING. Who knows what at that point if you aren't seeing any white poo. The thing is, if they are sick they are going to pass it along to your healthy fish in that tank.

[Kindredspirit]

Ya think?

[Elcid]

In a normal healthy batch of say 100 fry. If you grew them all to dime size and culled 80 of the best and took the same amount of care for the 20 remaining. I bet you could keep them nearly as long as if you had culled the bottom 80 and kept the top 20! A fish tank is not nature, it's not the best that survive it the luckiest!