JeffreyRichard
01-26-2006, 10:56 AM
The following is my ANOCDOTAL and OBSERVATIONAL opinions regarding Angelfish with Discus.
I like to think of myself as an knowledgeable angelfish breeder and keeper ... my wife and I had a commercial hatchery for 11 years and we bred thousands of angelfish. And I learned from several masters ... most notably Steve Rybicki of Angels Plus. Sooo ...
1) Water Temperature - Angelfish GENERALLY do well in 76 to 80 degree temperature (most references support this). They PREFER breeding temperatures of 81-84 degrees. I keep my breeding and grow out stock at 82-85 ... breeding temperature ... I heated my hatchery centrally and all my fish are at the same temperature (may explain why I never did well with guppies ...). The higher temperature will grow angels faster, but it is believed that their lifespan may be shortened. I have had several dozen angelfish for more than 5 years at this temperature, so the effects of higher heat are inconclusive to me ... CONCLUSIONS - ANGELFISH TOLERATE DISCUS TEMPERATURES WELL
2) Water Chemistry - Angels PREFER soft acid water ... so do Discus! Domestic/hybridized angels will THRIVE in moderately hard and alkaline water. CONCLUSIONS - ANGELFISH WILL THRIVE IN DISCUS WATER
3) Water conditions - Angelfish are GENERAL more tolerant of excess nutrients and metabolic wastes (such as nitrate), but not by a lot. Despite the fact that many have kept angelfish in deplorable conditions (no water changes), these fish are not really happy. Discus require clean water (water changes) ... and angelfish THRIVE in clean water. CONCLUSIONS - ANGELFISH DO REAL WELL UNDER DISCUS CONDITIONS
4) Feeding - Angelfish can be aggressive feeders. They primarily eat insects, fish and crustaceans, similar to discus. In a community tank, angelfish will be at the top of the queue to get fed ... however, I've never observed their companions to go hungry ... this may be a matter of feeding enough for everybody and making sure there is a clean-up crew (catfish) to eat up the leftovers. With discus, I've observed situations where discus are more aggressive than angelfish, and other situations where angelfish are more aggressive feeders. I currently have 6 Altum angels with 3 scalare angels and 3 adult discus ... the discus will be the first to the food. CONCLUSIONS - ANGELS MAY BE MORE AGGRESSIVE FEEDERS THAN DISCUS, BUT NOT DETRIMENTALLY SO.
5) General Behavior - Both discus and angels are GENERALLY peaceful to there tank mates ... exceptions being toward small fish (ummm ... food!) and when breeding. Both Discus and Angels can keep there tank mates at bay if they decide to spawn in the community tank (happens frequently with my angels) - CONCLUSIONS ... NO GENERAL ISSUES BUT BE AWARE OF SPAWNING PAIRS
6) Disease (my favorite) - Both Discus and Angelfish are susceptible to diseases, and both may cause problems from whatever source they come from. I have observed the following ...
- Discus, especially fry, are susceptible to gill flukes. Angelfish seem to tolerate flukes better than discus
- Angelfish are highly susceptible to Hex/spiralnucleosis; discus seem better at handling this than angelfish
- My discus are susceptible to Cryptobia … a debilitating disease of the gut which can cause the fish waste away over a long period of time. I haven’t seen any symptoms in my angelfish
- Both can be decimated by “plague” … a series of highly contagious viral and bacteria infections that can decimate a population of either. I’ve experienced Angelfish Plague where I lost 80% of my fish and had to get rid of the other 20% … I didn’t have discus at the time so I’m not sure of any cross-over between the two.
- The MYSTERY DISCUS-KILLING Disease carried by Angelfish – I don’t doubt that more than a few discus keepers have experienced unexplained losses of discus when kept with angelfish. All the accounts I’ve seen of this problem lead me to this theory … sick angels to start with. It is my experience that Angelfish can do a reasonable job masking most problems … better than discus. When discus aren’t well, they darken up and generally look miserable. Where did the angelfish come from that were mixed with the discus? Well, if they came from a LFS, they likely carried problems. A really good QT process is required if the angels where not bred by the keeper. I submit that the angelfish did not go through the scrutiny of what a discus will go through … If you are going to keep them together, make sure the source of the angelfish is as good as the source of your discus, and QT them the same way.
CONCLUSIONS – Both fish are susceptible to disease; both require QT, neither are deadly to the other.
Jeff
I like to think of myself as an knowledgeable angelfish breeder and keeper ... my wife and I had a commercial hatchery for 11 years and we bred thousands of angelfish. And I learned from several masters ... most notably Steve Rybicki of Angels Plus. Sooo ...
1) Water Temperature - Angelfish GENERALLY do well in 76 to 80 degree temperature (most references support this). They PREFER breeding temperatures of 81-84 degrees. I keep my breeding and grow out stock at 82-85 ... breeding temperature ... I heated my hatchery centrally and all my fish are at the same temperature (may explain why I never did well with guppies ...). The higher temperature will grow angels faster, but it is believed that their lifespan may be shortened. I have had several dozen angelfish for more than 5 years at this temperature, so the effects of higher heat are inconclusive to me ... CONCLUSIONS - ANGELFISH TOLERATE DISCUS TEMPERATURES WELL
2) Water Chemistry - Angels PREFER soft acid water ... so do Discus! Domestic/hybridized angels will THRIVE in moderately hard and alkaline water. CONCLUSIONS - ANGELFISH WILL THRIVE IN DISCUS WATER
3) Water conditions - Angelfish are GENERAL more tolerant of excess nutrients and metabolic wastes (such as nitrate), but not by a lot. Despite the fact that many have kept angelfish in deplorable conditions (no water changes), these fish are not really happy. Discus require clean water (water changes) ... and angelfish THRIVE in clean water. CONCLUSIONS - ANGELFISH DO REAL WELL UNDER DISCUS CONDITIONS
4) Feeding - Angelfish can be aggressive feeders. They primarily eat insects, fish and crustaceans, similar to discus. In a community tank, angelfish will be at the top of the queue to get fed ... however, I've never observed their companions to go hungry ... this may be a matter of feeding enough for everybody and making sure there is a clean-up crew (catfish) to eat up the leftovers. With discus, I've observed situations where discus are more aggressive than angelfish, and other situations where angelfish are more aggressive feeders. I currently have 6 Altum angels with 3 scalare angels and 3 adult discus ... the discus will be the first to the food. CONCLUSIONS - ANGELS MAY BE MORE AGGRESSIVE FEEDERS THAN DISCUS, BUT NOT DETRIMENTALLY SO.
5) General Behavior - Both discus and angels are GENERALLY peaceful to there tank mates ... exceptions being toward small fish (ummm ... food!) and when breeding. Both Discus and Angels can keep there tank mates at bay if they decide to spawn in the community tank (happens frequently with my angels) - CONCLUSIONS ... NO GENERAL ISSUES BUT BE AWARE OF SPAWNING PAIRS
6) Disease (my favorite) - Both Discus and Angelfish are susceptible to diseases, and both may cause problems from whatever source they come from. I have observed the following ...
- Discus, especially fry, are susceptible to gill flukes. Angelfish seem to tolerate flukes better than discus
- Angelfish are highly susceptible to Hex/spiralnucleosis; discus seem better at handling this than angelfish
- My discus are susceptible to Cryptobia … a debilitating disease of the gut which can cause the fish waste away over a long period of time. I haven’t seen any symptoms in my angelfish
- Both can be decimated by “plague” … a series of highly contagious viral and bacteria infections that can decimate a population of either. I’ve experienced Angelfish Plague where I lost 80% of my fish and had to get rid of the other 20% … I didn’t have discus at the time so I’m not sure of any cross-over between the two.
- The MYSTERY DISCUS-KILLING Disease carried by Angelfish – I don’t doubt that more than a few discus keepers have experienced unexplained losses of discus when kept with angelfish. All the accounts I’ve seen of this problem lead me to this theory … sick angels to start with. It is my experience that Angelfish can do a reasonable job masking most problems … better than discus. When discus aren’t well, they darken up and generally look miserable. Where did the angelfish come from that were mixed with the discus? Well, if they came from a LFS, they likely carried problems. A really good QT process is required if the angels where not bred by the keeper. I submit that the angelfish did not go through the scrutiny of what a discus will go through … If you are going to keep them together, make sure the source of the angelfish is as good as the source of your discus, and QT them the same way.
CONCLUSIONS – Both fish are susceptible to disease; both require QT, neither are deadly to the other.
Jeff