Deformed Dorsal Fin

[troyclark]

Hello all. I recently pulled 3 week old fry from their parents and have been feeding the BBS and crushed flake. As they are getting bigger I have noticed that a lot of them seem to have a dorsal fin problem. In most of the problem ones the front half of the dorsal didnt seem to grow as fast as the rest and in some in appears completely gone. Their parents are siblings but their parents are from seperate lines I believe. Does this deformity sound familiar with someone. I am wondering if its genetic or environmental. Any advise would be helpful. Thanks

[John_Nicholson]

I do see this in a small number of fry from almost every spawn. These are prime canidates to be culled. My guess would be it is enviromental. I have maybe a 1% occurance in most of my spawns. How much water are you changing on the fry? And how hard is your growout water.

-john

[troyclark]

I do a 95% daily water change. My water is approx. 300 tds, PH 7.4 after aging. I am hoping that it is not genetic as this pair raised them like champs. I finally had to take the spawn away from them after they started to look a little raggy. About 1/2 the spawn has the dorsal fin problem in one shape or another. Thanks for the help.

[jeep]

My guess would be it is enviromental ... And how hard is your growout water.


Troy, I've had the same problem and I believe it is environmental. A lack of calcium in your water.

I bought some Calcium Chloride (Ice Melt) and add about 1 TBS every other water change and the problem went away.

Brian

[troyclark]

Brian, do you think that Oyster Shell Calcium with Vitamin D added would work instead of ice melt ?? I take the Oyster Shell Calcium pills and thought that they might work to increase the amount of dissolved calcium in the water. Just a thought. Thanks

[ronman]

I had three spawn from 3 different pair of leopard and all three spawn had about 95% of fry with deformed dorsal. I ended culling all three spawns.
All other strains are ok.

ron

[jeep]

Troy, I'm not sure but I would think it would depend on the soluability of the calcium. If it can be absorbed into the bloodstream. I know Gabe Pasoda said he used "crushed coral" in his grow-outs. The Crushed Coral +D you mention is what I use as a supplement to the beef heart I make.

I can't say this has entirely solved my problem. I still have a problem with gill plate defects as well, but not as much as I did before. As hard as the water here is, I don't understand why we're having this problem at all...

[troyclark]

Brian, I don't think the dissolved oyster shell calcium pills worked. I just pulled the latest spawn from my MP/Golden and had been adding some in the tank since they went freeswimming and almost all have the dorsal fin deformed. I will have to cull them all (50). It hurts because the parents worked so hard to get them this far along and a water quality issue causes me to cull them. I do a 80-90% WC on them each and every night. I will try to get ahold of some calcium chlorite soon and try it again. I think I might pull the female and try a new female anyway. I think that my other MP has turned out to be a female and I saw her cleaning the glass and making practice runs in my 180 with 15 other full grown adults. Hope they like each other LOL.

Thanks

[jeep]

Sorry to hear that Troy. All I know is when I started adding Calcium Chloride from the day they hatch, the problem went away for me...

[johnm]

I'm no expert, but if you are trying to add calcium to your water you want to try liquid calcium plus vitamin d. This would be more readily absorbed rather than tablets.

[Alight]

I''ve had similar problems and I believe it is environment X genetics interaction. Certain crosses have many more of these defects than others.

I also believe it is actually something in the water, not something that needs to be added that causes the problem. I beleive it is surfactants from detergent pollution--although I have no proof for that, other than anecdotal evidence.

However, additional calcium can help the situation. It need to be added as others have said immediately after hatching. Increase the calcium slowly, though as I've found that too much interferes with attaching.

The gill plate defects seem to be related to the dorsal fin defects, and both decrease with additional calcium. I haven't tried the vitamin D thing, but sounds like a good idea.

Let us know the result.

[jeep]

I put Calcium+D in the food and Calcium Chloride in the water. Calcium Chloride dissolves almost instantly and is easily absorbed through the gills...

[Green Country Discus]

Having only experianced limited problems with this..when do you (all) start adding harder water with your WC's. We normally start with hatch day...10-15% and larger as they get older. Would like to hear some feed back on this ;) .

[troyclark]

I am thinking of using Reef Calcium suppliments from Seachem instead of the calcium chloride since I can't find any locally this time of year. Anyone try this with their discus before ?? Thanks
Troy

[kaceyo]

Troy,
Thats going to get real expensive real quick. There is a place called Earths Tongue that sells calcium chloride fairly cheap. Also if you can find Prestone's Heat, a driveway de-icer, it's 100% cal chloride. I've found it at large hardware stores and auto parts stores and it's VERY cheap compared to any aquarium calcium additives.
HTH,

Kacey

[Peachtree Discus]

Discus Essential has Calcium Chloride listed in the ingredients. Is that not enuf? The label also mentions something about calcium use.

[Alight]

Discus Essential only will add trace amounts of calcium, not nearly enough to have any influence.

Andrew, as to when to add, I've found that it doesn't help to add the calcium after the fry are already free swimming. I have to add it soon after hatching to work. How soon I don't know, but I try to add some in with a small water change as soon as the fry are all hatched. I try to bring the calcium hardness up a degree a day (about 10 ppm calcium).

[jeep]

Andrew, as to when to add, I've found that it doesn't help to add the calcium after the fry are already free swimming. I have to add it soon after hatching to work. How soon I don't know, but I try to add some in with a small water change as soon as the fry are all hatched.

DITTO! As soon as the first fry begin to hatch, I usually drain 1/2 of the water and add back 25% immediatly and another 25% on about an hour. I do the same thing again in about 4 hours.

[brewmaster15]

How many times a day does everyone having this problem feed their fry over the first month?

-al

[kaceyo]

FWIW, I'm currently raising a batch of 80 SE x RSG fry and I'm not using any added calcium other than what i put in the BH mix. My water's TDS is 44ppm so is very soft. I just wanted to see how this batch would compare to my others which have all been raised in water adjusted to between 200 and 300ppm TDS with either RO Right or a Calcium Chloride/magnesium sulphate mix. So far I havn't had any of the problems being discussed here and the fry are 5 1/2 weeks old.
The Seattle Public Utilities info puts the calcium (as CaC03) at 26ppm and magnesium at 1.1 ppm. Since I'm not having any problems I'd guess that lack of calcium isn't the problem directly. Either something is lacking that is needed to make the calcium available to the fish or something is blocking uptake. I'm not well versed in the chemistry involved as many of you are but I thought this info might shed some light on the subject that others could use.
I wonder how many people have higher calcium/magnesium levels in their water than Seattle yet still have these problems which can be corrected by addition of cal and magnesium?
HTH,

Kacey

[brewmaster15]

Hi Kacey,
How many times a day do you feed the fry, what are you feeding, whats the size of the tank and whats the volume of water change you are doing a day?

thanks,
al

[jeep]

Al, I only had the problem once and you suggested the calcium chloride supplement. They were the culled part of the ones I sent to you. At the time, I was feeding BBS about 6 times per day and doing 2 75% W/C's daily in a 20g breeder tank. They stayed in this tank for 2 weeks then off to a 40g tank until they were about nickle size and then split the group into another 40g tank, all the while doing at least 100% W/C's per day.

As I said, after supplementing the water with calcium chloride, I have not seen this problem again, although I don't have many spawns going on recently...

I kept one as a tester cull and it has been a normal and healthy fish in every other way...

[brewmaster15]

Thanks Brian,
I remember when that happened . I have used the same to prevent short gill plates, and floppy fins....in both discus and angels.. Having an over abundance of angel fry to experiment on ..I found that short gill plates and floppy fins can be prevented by adding calcium chloride to the water when you have a large group of fry...this is in addition to large water changes and heavy feedings...... In another experiment...I didn't add the calcium chloride..instead I feed less heavily on the brine.. the growth of the angels was slower as expected but the problem was solved there as well..

I have a feeling that although supplimenting with calcium chloride fixes the problem in most cases... that the real problem may be too much food being given (protein) in X amount of time and not enough minerals in the water... for the amount of protein and mineral taken in the food and applied to growth.

I guess what I am saying is those of you that have these probelms repeatedly may want to to try cutting back on the number of supplimental BBS feedings and encouraging the fry to to feed off the parents slime coat more ( this is probably a more slow ingestion of protein all day vs...the rapid eating when BBs is given.......I'd be interested in if you see the problem going away....

I think the critical time here is the first 6 weeks..


if that doesn't help..then definetly try changing the mineral composition of your water and increasing water changes, both volume and frequency...

just a few ideas to consider.....

hth,
al

[kaceyo]

Al,
I start with BBS around day 4 and work it up to 4 times a day within a few days. This is in a 29g tank and I do two 70% to 80% wc's daily.
HTH,

Kacey
I should add that I don't start off changing that much water but work up to it over the first few weeks. At two weeks I start adding crushed flakes and shaved BH. The BH has a calcium suppliment made for humans added at 250mg/lb. Also a multivitamin.

[Alight]

I feed BBS 2-3 times a day, but in large quantities. I siphon after a few hours and uneaten BBS, and the rest of the junk from feeding the parents.

I use very soft water for spawning (<10ppm) so 40 ppm actually sounds high to me, and is what I take the water up to for grow out.

Al, you could be right about the BBS, and it might actually be either the added sodium or something from the egg shell breakdown in the water, or it could be what the fry actually ingest.

As I suggested, I had a feeling it was a combination of something actually in the water, and the low calcium levels. Could be the interaction of something that prevents proper calcium usage, with the lower calcium levels.

Al Light

[Ed13]

Guys I find this thread very informative and usefull. Even if I'm having some trouble keeping up with you guys:o , I'd like this discussion to continue!

No one mentioned a "recipe" for the calcium chloride, nor how to you measure and adjust what is needed. I'll asume that its measure the same way reef keepers do, but what amount is needed 300ppm-400?

Maybe this article helps out abit, obviously its saltwater oriented but and has an alkalinity buffer to it, but it can't hurt to glance through it. Good enough for sensitive corals, so its got to be safe for discus
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-02/rhf/index.php

[jeep]

I don't have a recipe. I just toss in about 1 to 1 1/2 tablespoons for a 55g tank on about every other water change...

[kaceyo]

I mix 4parts cal chloride to 1 part Epsom salt then add 4tsp of the mix to a full 55gal drum of water.

Kacey

[Ed13]

I don't have a recipe. I just toss in about 1 to 1 1/2 tablespoons for a 55g tank on about every other water change...


I mix 4parts cal chloride to 1 part Epsom salt then add 4tsp of the mix to a full 55gal drum of water.

Kacey
So how do you know your are adding too little or too much? Any risk of overdosing?

[jeep]

Well, I never really thought about it. Al told me to add 1 to 1 1/2 tbs so thats what I did, lol... I try not to think too hard about these things. It mixes me all up :D

[kaceyo]

Ed,
Been away for a while, sorry for the long delay. I use a TDS meter to measure Total Desolved Solids. I've tried adjusting from 200ppm to 400ppm at different times and got good results throughout the range. OD isn't a risk that I know of.

Kacey

[Ed13]

Ed,
Been away for a while, sorry for the long delay. I use a TDS meter to measure Total Desolved Solids. I've tried adjusting from 200ppm to 400ppm at different times and got good results throughout the range. OD isn't a risk that I know of.

Kacey
No prob Kacey!
I thought the calcium levels were being measured themselves:D Thats the 300ppm I was talking about:confused: ! I kept thinking , well corals need around 400-500ppm of calcium, but won't it burn the discus:D

[kaceyo]

The calcium won't burn the fish. When you measure the TDS of tap water you are measuring all the desolved solids. But when you start from a given point (like my tap water TDS is 40ppm), then add cal/magnesium mix, I know that everything over the 40ppm is from the mix being added. Is that what you meant?

Kacey

[Ed13]

The calcium won't burn the fish. When you measure the TDS of tap water you are measuring all the desolved solids. But when you start from a given point (like my tap water TDS is 40ppm), then add cal/magnesium mix, I know that everything over the 40ppm is from the mix being added. Is that what you meant?

Kacey
Yes thanks for clearing that up!

[guille2007]

Is the lack of calcium in water that causes fry fins deformities related with low gH, low kH or both?

[kaceyo]

The GH measures primarily calcium and magnesium along with some trace elements and will be a relativly low number if there isn't enough calcium in your water.

Kacey

[guille2007]

My fry water is gH=20 kH=2 pH=7.2 I even add trace elements, I do a 60% daily WC to a 16 gallons tank, fish are around 25 they are 20 days old as today, still with the male , have been feeding them with bbs since day 5, they also eat father mucus and I started with crushed pellets since yesterday. I am noticing poor dorsal fin developing in most of them, what is causing this in this case?

[kaceyo]

Have you got a photo you could post?
You can't always rely on a high GH as assurance that there is enough calcium in your water. If the water is high in sodium you could still get a high GH/TDS reading and be low in calcium. The problem could also have an environmental or bacterial cause.
Your tank is IMO far too small for raising fry which means there is likely a very high bacteria count, desolved organics would also be high and desolved oxygen would be low. Not a good combination of conditions. I'd advise you to get a larger tank for them ASAP, minimum 29g for a breading pair and 50g for growout.

Kacey

[guille2007]

Sorry my digital camera got damaged, it is something like if you do a flat cutting to the dorsal fin, some have a little flat fin and some have no fin, I have a cured sponge filter in that tank plus an airstone, no ammonia/nitrite either, I also have added trace elements to the water since they became wrigglers, don't know if low kH could be the problem since CaCO3 is easier absorption and at kH=2 there is almost no CaCO3, other than that these fry eat and have grown well, the male eats well too and have produced mucus enough, I have no seen any discomfort to the male and or the fry. Don't know if genetic cause since pair is suspected to be brother and sister, so could be inbreeding?

[kaceyo]

Keep an eye on your pH with low KH but other than pH crash it won't have a direct effect on the fishes growth.
Genetics does play a part in their development but they would have to be very inbred for a sibling pairing to have such a detrimental effect.
First thing I'd do is get a bigger tank. Keeping the filter cycled is just the beggining of keeping your water clean. Also start adding calcium as soon as the eggs hatch on the next spawn and see if it takes care of the problem.

[guille2007]

Ok thanks for recommendation kacey, let see next time.

[kaceyo]

Quote from Bastalker:
"I brought this thread back up because I have been thinking lately about the
correlation between GH/KH and growing out juvies. I know this doesn't really
have much to do with fin deformities in fry but it will save starting another
thread.

I have very soft water! GH 1 deg or 20 mg an KH is the same. Is it myth or will
adding magnesium, sodium bicarbonate and calcium enhance the growth rate of
juvies?

I can see adding calcium to the water might enhance growth but epson salts an
baking soda?

Opinions?

tc
Mark"

I'm getting a notification of a new post by Bastalker but when I click on the link his post doesn't show up. So, I'll answer his question as it's written in my notice.

The original recipe ("Joe's Recipe"), thats Joe from Enchanted Discus, called for 3 parts cal. sulphate, 1 part cal. chloride and 1 part magnesium sulphate. This was for remineralizing RO water and raising hardness in soft growout water. It's said to increase growth rate and improve shape by by some, including Jack Wattley. I don't know of anyone that has put it to the test in a side by side experiment with a split spawn tho so can't say how true it is.
After some time the recipe was changed (by unspoken agreement of the masses) to 4 parts cal. chloride and 1 part mag. sulphate as the c. sulphate doesn't desolve well and there was some confusion about which types of c. sulphate were safe. I don't think baking soda was ever a part of the recipe but can't say that for sure.
I'd still like to see a controled experiment to see if it does work as claimed.

Kacey